Religion.

[Defeatist Elitist]

You've obviously not been paying attention to the world lately. I'm not contradicting myself at all. You're just not looking at the creation process. Listen closely, or don't. I guess it doesn't matter in the end.

Building:Parts that are created to become a part of something perfect ARE IMPERFECT OF AND BY THEMSELVES. The reason is because they're purpose is to become complete. Not remain as they are. To remain makes them imperfect. Now what you're obviously getting at is that something like a bolt or screw is perfect of and by itself. even though it is meant to eventually become apart of something greater, like an XBOX 360 controller or something. Still the creation process isn't complete. If you are going to make/create/build something, the things you use, are to you, imperfect, or you'd leave them alone altogether, as adding them to something else could very well take away from that.

Perfect Process: The perfect process can be anything that comes out exactly as planned. Flaws don't make the process imperfect if they are intended from the get-go. And don't take that as a "imperfection is perfection" switch. It's not. I'm saying that flaws can be intended for the purpose of creating perfection. Not only that but it is required since throwing together a bunch of complete things just makes a clump of perfect things that weren't intended to be together as they were already perfect of and by themselves, and not being intended implies a flawed result. If the result is flawed then imperfection is the result. The Perfect Process is a process that goes exactly as intended by the being who initiates it. Therefore, no matter what comes into the design/process/project, as long as the end result is what was intended, it is perfect. ANYTHING BY THAT HAPPENS BY DESIGN IS PERFECT. Also not speaking of Good and evil designs but of a neutral kind of perfection that can only be determined by the creator of said design. (Can't wait til your so called logic discounts this with the same bias view point as before. Yipee...)

God's capability: I honestly have no friggin idea what kind of overall potential a real God would have. What I'm saying is that when you create some thing, you END UP with it, it's not just there. You create by putting it together. That is how creation works, at least in this universe. Logically applying this to God means that he would work the same way assuming he created us. Since humans are supposedly imperfect, that means the creation process is either flawed, or unfinished. If the process of creating something that is perfect is not yet finished then that means the process can be perfect. It is, or it isn't depending on human destiny. Listen carefully... THE END RESULT IS WHAT MATTERS. If the process of creating something perfect required nothing but other perfect things then the whole process would be impossible. (I sense a micro perfection argument approaching quickly... best nip this in the bud...)

Micro Perfection: So the screw is perfect is it? Only if it's not meant to be apart of the controller and is simply meant to be... a screw(not screwdriver sry). That's where the maker's intent comes into the picture. The perfection of something to be or that already is created can only be determined by the Creator. That's FACT. So can a screwdriver be perfect of and by itself? Only if intended to be by the person who created it. If it was intended to become a part of something greater then it is not perfect alone. So micro perfection can only apply to things that become part of multiple things. I guess a screw could fall into this catagory because you can take it out of one hole and put it into another. But this is about the overall project. You're saying that God can't work with imperfection. That means he can only exist completely alone and by himself with nothing else in existence. There is a purpose in this universe. If there was no reason for it, it would not be here. The purpose is perfection. So the end result of creation will be perfection. That's the only possible outcome of it all. everything in this universe by itself is flawed in someway, partly because it has not fulfilled it's purpose in why it was created.

ARGH!!!: Why do you say God damn so much? That's like me saying No-God damn. It's funny as hell. Also I'm glad that people have the mental capacity to ignore the plain truth and run off and do their thing, especially religious scholars and the like, but maybe we should all just take a step back and just try to look at things alittle more unbiasly, and if not with an open mind, then at least a humble heart. This day and age is pretty much a "I'm right because you can't possibly be right." world. It's disgusting to look at how quickly this get's into people's heads. People need to learn to be right, for the right reasons. You facts don't prove you right or me wrong, and even if they did prove me wrong, it doesn't mean you and the rest of the "logical" world have the truth and the answers. If you did, then surely noone would contest you right? Well of course those with the same stubborness would but they'd die off in a couple hundred years.

WAITWAITWAITWAITWAIT.

Your idea of perfect is just whatever the creator had in mind? Alright, but, uh, that's not exactly a generally accepted idea. I mean, I guess you could argue that, but the idea is that God is SUPPOSED to be perfect, right? And all powerful, all that jazz. That's what we're saying.

Incidentally, this is what I mean about you and word games/confusing-ness. Maybe you don't intend it, but it's really there.

Anyhow, either way, there's massive holes in God's Plan, what with all the suffering and condemning and such, but hopefully we can get the perfection argument out of the way.

As for your last paragraph...

"You facts don't prove you right or me wrong, and even if they did prove me wrong, it doesn't mean you and the rest of the "logical" world have the truth and the answers. If you did, then surely noone would contest you right?"

Just like how no-one contested the fact that black people were human and equal to white peo-OH WAIT.

How about how people accepted Homosexuals as the-WELL WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT!

If perfection is what it's defined as, it can do imperfect things because it's perfect and can do anything, right? Anyone can intentionally do worse than their full ability. If perfect wants to create imperfect, how does that make it imperfect?

No, because if something perfect does something less than perfect, they've done something imperfect, making them imperfect.

If you get what I mean.

[Phoenix]

Congratz. You replied without questioning my intellegence.

So now we come to the question, what is perfect? Somebody else look up the definition, I'm tired.

[Florete]

No, because if something perfect does something less than perfect, they've done something imperfect, making them imperfect.

If you get what I mean.

I don't get what you mean. If perfect is incapable of creating imperfect, it's imperfect, thus perfect wouldn't exist. Is that what you're getting at?

Perfect is perfect because it can do anything. So why can it not intentionally create the imperfect?

[lolDeath]

Perfect is subjective. This debate is pathetic.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Congratz. You replied without questioning my intellegence.

So now we come to the question, what is perfect? Somebody else look up the definition, I'm tired.

Already leagues ahead of you.

"being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish; "a perfect circle"; "a perfect reproduction"; "perfect happiness"; "perfect manners""

Thus, where I was drawing from. A "perfect" God should be able to create something "perfect" instantly. It would have no defect or blemish. The main argument though, was basically that. If God is perfect, then why does he need to spend the time to make something imperfect first. He should be able to make it perfect right away. Otherwise, he's made something imperfect.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I don't get what you mean. If perfect is incapable of creating imperfect, it's imperfect, thus perfect wouldn't exist. Is that what you're getting at?

Perfect is perfect because it can do anything. So why can it not intentionally create the imperfect?

Because that would make it IMPERFECT. That's why being Perfect is a contradiction, something God is full of, further proving that he doesn't exist. :P

[Florete]

Perfect is subjective. This debate is pathetic.

I agree with that.

Because that would make it IMPERFECT. That's why being Perfect is a contradiction, something God is full of, further proving that he doesn't exist. :P

I don't agree with that.

[Phoenix]

Perfect is subjective.

That means that both arguments are based on something that can't be determined for sure.

WELP! BACK TO SQUARE ONE. I'M RIGHT, AND YOU'RE WRONG.

Here's why: God is a spirit, and that means we can't see him. So God, purple dragons and pink unicorns could very well all exist, deal with it.

But seriously, your reasons for not believing in God are annoying. Please list them so I may quote them.

[lolDeath]

That means that both arguments are based on something that can't be determined for sure.

WELP! BACK TO SQUARE ONE. I'M RIGHT, AND YOU'RE WRONG.

Here's why: God is a spirit, and that means we can't see him. So God, purple dragons and pink unicorns could very well all exist, deal with it.

But seriously, your reasons for not believing in God are annoying. Please list them so I may quote them.

The Matrix is a true story.

[Phoenix]

The Matrix is a true story.

All stories are. From a philisophical point of view.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I agree with that.

I don't agree with that.

How can you agree with one and not the other?

If you take the dictionary definition of Perfect in the most Objective sense, than God is a contradiction and cannot exist. If you get Subjective, than God REALLY can't exist. Everyone would have a different view of Perfect.

@Phoenix:

Wanna know my main reason?

There is no evidence of his existence.

[Phoenix]

@Phoenix:

Wanna know my main reason?

There is no evidence of his existence.

There's no evidence from a certain point of view. And no I'm not talking about people gathering evidence from miraculously being freed from financial debt because they prayed about it, although this must have happened to at least one person at some point.

[Florete]

How can you agree with one and not the other?

If you take the dictionary definition of Perfect in the most Objective sense, than God is a contradiction and cannot exist. If you get Subjective, than God REALLY can't exist. Everyone would have a different view of Perfect.

per⋅fect   /adj., n. ˈpɜrfɪkt; v. pərˈfɛkt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman.

2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement: There is no perfect legal code. The proportions of this temple are almost perfect.

3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose: a perfect actor to play Mr. Micawber; a perfect saw for cutting out keyholes.

4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings: a perfect apple; the perfect crime.

5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail: a perfect copy.

6. thorough; complete; utter: perfect strangers.

7. pure or unmixed: perfect yellow.

8. unqualified; absolute: He has perfect control over his followers.

9. expert; accomplished; proficient.

10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree: He made a perfect fool of himself.

I don't see how any of that fits what you described as perfect. In other words, I whole-heartedly disagree with your view of perfection. Anyone can do less than their full ability, right? Being perfect means you're capable of anything, including doing something imperfect.

[lolDeath]

There's no evidence from a certain point of view. And no I'm not talking about people gathering evidence from miraculously being freed from financial debt because they prayed about it, although this must have happened to at least one person at some point.

There is no evidence from any logical perspective. Though I wouldn't expect someone like you to comprehend that, that's why I am so inactive in this debate.

[Phoenix]

I understand full well why people don't believe in God. I'd be one of them without certain knowledge in my head and a few incidents.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I don't see how any of that fits what you described as perfect. In other words, I whole-heartedly disagree with your view of perfection. Anyone can do less than their full ability, right? Being perfect means you're capable of anything, including doing something imperfect.

Uh, I see that as actually agreeing with what I said? Those quotes. I pretty much stated as much.

Being Perfect, according to, say, definition 1 of your definitions:

"conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type: a perfect sphere; a perfect gentleman. "

In this case, God would have to conform absolutely to the ideal of being God I guess, either that or just plain perfection. This definition can safely be disregarded I think.

" excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement"

In this case, if God made something imperfect, then he would not be beyond improvement. Making something imperfect > making something perfect. Unless you think he could do both and chose to do the former, in which case my argument still stands, albeit in a slightly different manner, and it draws into the light what a massive dick move it was.

You want I should continue?

Edited December 7, 2008 by ZXValaRevan

[lolDeath]

I understand full well why people don't believe in God. I'd be one of them without certain knowledge in my head and a few incidents.

Please, share, save us faithless idiots, you little zealot you.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I understand full well why people don't believe in God. I'd be one of them without certain knowledge in my head and a few incidents.

Share with us this knowledge please. Because otherwise you've got nothing.

[Phoenix]

Please, share, save us faithless idiots, you little zealot you.

I can't save anyone. I'm not a Protestant. I do not believe that God is trying to save the world right now. I believe that he'll do so later, after the overwhelming majority of mankind dies. It's complicated...

[lolDeath]

Bad dodge, too obvious.

[Florete]

In this case, if God made something imperfect, then he would not be beyond improvement. Making something imperfect > making something perfect. Unless you think he could do both and chose to do the former, in which case my argument still stands, albeit in a slightly different manner, and it draws into the light what a massive dick move it was.

You want I should continue?

Maybe it's just because it's 3 am and I'm tired, but I don't get why God can't choose to do something imperfect and stay perfect. So please, continue.

Oh, what am I saying, I was hoping this was ending at the Matrix comparison.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I can't save anyone. I'm not a Protestant. I do not believe that God is trying to save the world right now. I believe that he'll do so later, after the overwhelming majority of mankind dies. It's complicated...

But tell us this "knowledge" you have that makes you believe in God. I'd at least like to hear it, as it would be a shame to leave a point un argued.

[Phoenix]

Bad dodge, too obvious.

Dodge? I'm not dodging anything. I'm not even trying to prove my religion is correct. If I was, I would have mentioned the specifics. I'm not dodging anything. If you want to be saved go find a Catholic priest or something.

[lolDeath]

You are saying that you know something that we do not and not elaborating. Why bring it up and not say it? Maybe you're just as full of shit as I suspect. :)

[Phoenix]

But tell us this "knowledge" you have that makes you believe in God. I'd at least like to hear it, as it would be a shame to leave a point un argued.

It's not a "point" and you wouldn't believe it regardless due to the pesky reality of personal proof verses facts but okay.

GOD: Believing in a creation without a creator isn't the most ridiculous thing to occur in the human mind. As I said before religions come from a combination of the following:

Personal Proof (Something that can only be accepted by them, or those willing to make it their own.)

Logic (The boundries that keep faith in check.)

Faith (Faith itself, belief in something you yourself cannot prove.)

This is the combination that builds religions, and most if not all belief systems. Let's be honest, you can't go into a laboratory right now and prove all your evolution theories. You have to have faith that the scientists are correct in their research, and must use logic to understand that they'd be in jail if they didn't. Your personal proof is that in your mind this makes sense and therefore it is proven to you. Still with me?

Lastly my personal proof, logic, and faith. Oddly enough I only believe in God for several reasons, miraculous events not among the reasons. My personal proof is creation itself. Something simply does not come from nothing. I'll expound on this later on but that is most of my personal proof. My logic runs along the same lines knowing that certain things can come about but not ignoring the fact that everything came from something else, even the stars, or they would not be here. My Faith comes from the lack of God's presents, but this lack of God in the world actually gives me more strength because of what I believe is happening. I believe that the time for salvation is not yet here for all mankind. I believe for most it is more than a 1,000 years down the road. Some of this is in that Book everybody loves so much too. Anywho, that's a rough summary for you to beat with a stick even though it won't bother me all that much. Enjoy :P