My Main Issue with Alm

[Acacia Sgt]

I would think the whole point isn't "Here are two people who embody their respective patron deities and see how flawed they are because they don't have enough of the other" but actually more "Here is one who embodies their patron deity while over there we have someone who is instead more balanced and see how the latter is the one who fares better because of that".

If Alm was really meant to only embody Duma's ideals... then the story wouldn't be about him being the one taking the system down to begin with.

Or more like, Duma was already teaching people how to live without him and Mila, so of course Alm, who supposedly is more aligned to his ideals, would fare better when the whole point is to... live without Duma and Mila. Shocking, I know.

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Because the story exists to show that Alm is perfect and wonderful and his supposed co-main is in fact an incomplete/inferior version of him, which is why the ending places Alm as the clear ruler of Valentia and Celica as his consort/supporter.

It's kind of a garbage story.

Wrong. Celica exists for far different reasons than to prop up Alm, cut your bias because nonarguments like those are a joke.

If Celica existed to prop up Alm, she would've instantly hopped on Alm's dick on sight and never disagree with him. If she existed to prop up Alm, Alm wouldn't have needed saving not once but twice.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Seazas

[Anathaco]

3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Wrong. Celica exists for far different reasons than to prop up Alm, cut your bias because nonarguments like those are a joke.

If Celica existed to prop up Alm, she would've instantly hopped on Alm's dick on sight and never disagree with him. If she existed to prop up Alm, Alm wouldn't have needed saving not once but twice.

As somebody who enjoys Echoes and its story, they have a point. Yeah she saves him a couple times, but Celica disagreeing with Alm and then basically failing serves the same purpose as never disagreeing with him. And Alm is pretty prominently pushed as the central hero of the story- the aforementioned ending, Act 5 being from Alm's point of view up until the final battle, etc.

That said, by disagreeing and failing, Celica's story does serve as a cautionary tale for leaning too heavily on gods, without which I don't think the story would work as well. So she does exist for more reasons than just making Alm look better, but the way she's portrayed does, as you say, prop up Alm a lot. Which one of these she was originally intended to be, only the writers know.

[Ottservia]

7 hours ago, Anathaco said:

As somebody who enjoys Echoes and its story, they have a point. Yeah she saves him a couple times, but Celica disagreeing with Alm and then basically failing serves the same purpose as never disagreeing with him. And Alm is pretty prominently pushed as the central hero of the story- the aforementioned ending, Act 5 being from Alm's point of view up until the final battle, etc.

That said, by disagreeing and failing, Celica's story does serve as a cautionary tale for leaning too heavily on gods, without which I don't think the story would work as well. So she does exist for more reasons than just making Alm look better, but the way she's portrayed does, as you say, prop up Alm a lot. Which one of these she was originally intended to be, only the writers know.

Honestly as it’s as I was saying earlier it just feels like writers went half way in both directions and it just ends up feeling kinda half-assed as a result 

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 hours ago, Anathaco said:

As somebody who enjoys Echoes and its story, they have a point. Yeah she saves him a couple times, but Celica disagreeing with Alm and then basically failing serves the same purpose as never disagreeing with him. And Alm is pretty prominently pushed as the central hero of the story- the aforementioned ending, Act 5 being from Alm's point of view up until the final battle, etc.

That said, by disagreeing and failing, Celica's story does serve as a cautionary tale for leaning too heavily on gods, without which I don't think the story would work as well. So she does exist for more reasons than just making Alm look better, but the way she's portrayed does, as you say, prop up Alm a lot. Which one of these she was originally intended to be, only the writers know.

Yep, minus the first few words, this is basically how I feel. It's just highly unfortunate that a game which bills itself on having co-mains paints one as a paragon and the other as a cautionary tale, doubly so given Echoes' problems with gender in general.

[Seazas]

13 hours ago, Anathaco said:

As somebody who enjoys Echoes and its story, they have a point. Yeah she saves him a couple times, but Celica disagreeing with Alm and then basically failing serves the same purpose as never disagreeing with him. And Alm is pretty prominently pushed as the central hero of the story- the aforementioned ending, Act 5 being from Alm's point of view up until the final battle, etc.

That said, by disagreeing and failing, Celica's story does serve as a cautionary tale for leaning too heavily on gods, without which I don't think the story would work as well. So she does exist for more reasons than just making Alm look better, but the way she's portrayed does, as you say, prop up Alm a lot. Which one of these she was originally intended to be, only the writers know.

Her efforts benefited Zofia as a whole though. Despite her not successfully beating Jedah, she handled the majority of his cult and the pirate problem of Zofia. Guys that would've undeniably been problems in the future and Alm was too busy with the war to give much notice to them.

Celica ended up being right all along and had the true enemy in mind. Along with finding out more truths about what the hell happened behind everything than Alm. Who needed to be manipulated by Rudolf and saved multiple times by Celica to have any sort of similar opportunity to know the entire truth. 

Celica doesn't make Alm look perfect. Succeeding in many ways and actively disagreeing with Alm's choice contradict that.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

What occured to me in my latest playthrough is, Alm isn't the character modeled on Duma's ideals. The character who values strength above all else is... Berkut. In seeking to satisfy his own pride, and the expectations thrust upon him, he winds up turning to dark magic and sacrificing the person who loved him most. Celica, meanwhile, does represent Mila's compassion - but to a fault. In choosing to sacrifice herself, even with the goal of saving Valentia, she winds up forgoing her own happiness and hurting the ones she loves.

Alm, then, is a middle way. Raised in Zofia, but of Rigelian stock. Taught the twin values of strength and compassion, of improving himself while finding joy in the everyday. It's only through this synthesis that he's able to build up a powerful force from across the continent, forge connections with people, and see his mission through to the end.

That's how I see it, at least. It's kind of weird, having the two main characters not represent a duality that the world-building makes obvious. But I don't think it's a failure on the writers' part.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[Ottservia]

18 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Alm, then, is a middle way. Raised in Zofia, but of Rigelian stock. Taught the twin values of strength and compassion, of improving himself while finding joy in the everyday. It's only through this synthesis that he's able to build up a powerful force from across the continent, forge connections with people, and see his mission through to the end.

Y’see my problem with this is that there are multiple instances where the story wants you to believe that Alm is a flawed character(his argument with Celica, Killing his father, him making up with Celica) when he is never presented as such anywhere else in the narrative. It just kinda comes off as extremely baffling to me. Is he a static paragon? Or a flawed dynamic hero who learns from overcoming the flaws in his ideals? I honestly could not tell cause it feels like they’re trying to do both and failing at doing either.

[omegaxis1]

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

What occured to me in my latest playthrough is, Alm isn't the character modeled on Duma's ideals. The character who values strength above all else is... Berkut. In seeking to satisfy his own pride, and the expectations thrust upon him, he winds up turning to dark magic and sacrificing the person who loved him most. Celica, meanwhile, does represent Mila's compassion - but to a fault. In choosing to sacrifice herself, even with the goal of saving Valentia, she winds up forgoing her own happiness and hurting the ones she loves.

Alm, then, is a middle way. Raised in Zofia, but of Rigelian stock. Taught the twin values of strength and compassion, of improving himself while finding joy in the everyday. It's only through this synthesis that he's able to build up a powerful force from across the continent, forge connections with people, and see his mission through to the end.

That's how I see it, at least. It's kind of weird, having the two main characters not represent a duality that the world-building makes obvious. But I don't think it's a failure on the writers' part.

That's sort of the problem. This only further proves that Alm is right, Celica is wrong. What exactly is Alm actually saying by saying that he needs Celica or he'd be reckless and just screw up? He hasn't had a single screw up that would actually cost him. Sure, you can fail to save Mathilda and Delthea, but neither of those actually cost Alm anything per se. And if he succeeds, it certainly isn't because of Celica either. In fact, Alm already holds the ideals of trying to save as many people as he can, insisting on saving Delthea, and even Fernand, a guy that's only been a douche to him.

Alm has zero negative qualities that actually makes him "need" Celica. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's sort of the problem. This only further proves that Alm is right, Celica is wrong. What exactly is Alm actually saying by saying that he needs Celica or he'd be reckless and just screw up? He hasn't had a single screw up that would actually cost him. Sure, you can fail to save Mathilda and Delthea, but neither of those actually cost Alm anything per se. And if he succeeds, it certainly isn't because of Celica either. In fact, Alm already holds the ideals of trying to save as many people as he can, insisting on saving Delthea, and even Fernand, a guy that's only been a douche to him.

Alm has zero negative qualities that actually makes him "need" Celica. 

 

9 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Y’see my problem with this is that there are multiple instances where the story wants you to believe that Alm is a flawed character(his argument with Celica, Killing his father, him making up with Celica) when he is never presented as such anywhere else in the narrative. It just kinda comes off as extremely baffling to me. Is he a static paragon? Or a flawed dynamic hero who learns from overcoming the flaws in his ideals? I honestly could not tell cause it feels like they’re trying to do both and failing at doing either.

I'll be straight - these are both valid points. The game could do a bit more to present Alm as flawed, while still a synthesis of the ideas of Duma and Mila. Maybe have him start the game by truly hating Rigel, but have Celica scold him for that, to changing his ways once he gets there. Or leave him bitter toward Fernand, despite Clive's and Claire's protestations, until seeing him again in Duma's Temple. Finally, when Celica saves him from the "weird hand magic" that Berkut unleashes, make it rooted in overconfidence and aggression - Alm breaks the mirror, when he tries to finish off a defeated Berkut, thus cursing himself and his army. In short, I think the game could be presented as more of a "learning experience" for Alm - although unfortunately, the ability for Celica to influence him is limited by their infrequent crossing of paths.

[Seazas]

22 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's sort of the problem. This only further proves that Alm is right, Celica is wrong. What exactly is Alm actually saying by saying that he needs Celica or he'd be reckless and just screw up? He hasn't had a single screw up that would actually cost him. Sure, you can fail to save Mathilda and Delthea, but neither of those actually cost Alm anything per se. And if he succeeds, it certainly isn't because of Celica either. In fact, Alm already holds the ideals of trying to save as many people as he can, insisting on saving Delthea, and even Fernand, a guy that's only been a douche to him.

Alm has zero negative qualities that actually makes him "need" Celica. 

That's how it's always been.

Alm and Celica and their flaws were never officially stated to have the need to cover each other. It's a nice thought and cute, but their backgrounds, beliefs and experiences are what make them come together. Alm's view toward the overall conflict was undeniably lacking something that Celica had. 

[omegaxis1]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:45 AM, Seazas said:

That's how it's always been.

Alm and Celica and their flaws were never officially stated to have the need to cover each other. It's a nice thought and cute, but their backgrounds, beliefs and experiences are what make them come together. Alm's view toward the overall conflict was undeniably lacking something that Celica had. 

Actually, they did. Alm specifically did.

Quote

Alm: Don’t apologize. Just know that I need you, all right? Without your wisdom, all I know how to do is fight whatever’s in front of me. So please… Will you fight with me? Believe in me. Believe in US. Believe in our combined strength!

Except this entire game, Alm never once needed Celica's "wisdom" at any point. He was pretty wise himself, wanting to save anyone he could, despite what others told him. 

[Seazas]

23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, they did. Alm specifically did.

Except this entire game, Alm never once needed Celica's "wisdom" at any point. He was pretty wise himself, wanting to save anyone he could, despite what others told him. 

Alm was right though, he did not think for a second and ignored all of the red flags with Rudolf. Hell, he completely focused on the war and never touched upon the complete state of Valentia. Celica had the right idea and her gifts are what kept Alm winning. Hell, SOV added another scene of Alm being shit out of luck but Celica's blessed charm saved him. While all Gaiden had was Dragon's Maw. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Seazas

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Alm was right though, he did not think for a second and ignored all of the red flags with Rudolf. Hell, he completely focused on the war and never touched upon the complete state of Valentia. Celica had the right idea and her gifts are what kept Alm winning. Hell, SOV added another scene of Alm being shit out of luck but Celica's blessed charm saved him. While all Gaiden had was Dragon's Maw. 

The charm had nothing to do with Celica's "wisdom" at all. That was a plot device which is pretty much a lucky break. It wasn't anything about Alm being reckless or foolish. It was more of a flaw of Berkut going on the deep end.

Not to mention that Alm killing Rudolf wasn't even something that was due to Alm being reckless either. 

The thing is, not ONCE was Celica's "wisdom" ever needed. 

[Seazas]

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

The charm had nothing to do with Celica's "wisdom" at all. That was a plot device which is pretty much a lucky break. It wasn't anything about Alm being reckless or foolish. It was more of a flaw of Berkut going on the deep end.

Not to mention that Alm killing Rudolf wasn't even something that was due to Alm being reckless either. 

The thing is, not ONCE was Celica's "wisdom" ever needed. 

It was still thanks to Celica that Alm made it through that. Celica ended up being right in the end and her wisdom completely addressed the problem at the source, something Alm failed to really do. Their character flaws do not entirely cover each other, that never happened in Gaiden nor Echoes. They worked out shit on their own and how they came together was a matter of ideals and their love for each other.

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, Seazas said:

It was still thanks to Celica that Alm made it through that. Celica ended up being right in the end and her wisdom completely addressed the problem at the source, something Alm failed to really do. Their character flaws do not entirely cover each other, that never happened in Gaiden nor Echoes. They worked out shit on their own and how they came together was a matter of ideals and their love for each other.

Yeah, you can easily write that lucky charm plot device off as anything else. You can replace that with anything, and it would still work. A plot device is a plot device. It's not "proof" that Alm "needs" Celica at all. 

Also, Celica insists that they not fight Rigel because there's another way, only there isn;t, and they have to get to Rigel to ultimately even get to Mila in the first place. In other words, there is no way of avoiding the war for even Celica, so her "wisdom" only comes off as foolish. Add in how she ended up getting tricked by Jedah so easily, all the less reason for her wisdom to amount to much.

Alm fighting someone in front of him didn't change. Rudolf dying just means that he now has another enemy in front of him, being Duma and Jedah. So he kills them as well. 

So no. Once again, nothing about Celica was needed in regards to her wisdom. 

Her advice literally amounted to nothing, and she ended up swayed by Alm more in the end, because he was more right about freeing the world from gods than she was in relying on the gods. In the end, Celica was never the wise one. Alm was.

[Ottservia]

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Her advice literally amounted to nothing, and she ended up swayed by Alm more in the end, because he was more right about freeing the world from gods than she was in relying on the gods. In the end, Celica was never the wise one. Alm was.

I wouldn’t say her advice amounted to nothing. She was right in that too much ambition would lead to bad things in the end. It still doesn’t work because there’s hardly any build up at all to this moment and Alm is never actually presented as having too much ambition throwing any and all meaning that moment would’ve had right out the fucking window but details am I right?

[Seazas]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, you can easily write that lucky charm plot device off as anything else. You can replace that with anything, and it would still work. A plot device is a plot device. It's not "proof" that Alm "needs" Celica at all. 

Also, Celica insists that they not fight Rigel because there's another way, only there isn;t, and they have to get to Rigel to ultimately even get to Mila in the first place. In other words, there is no way of avoiding the war for even Celica, so her "wisdom" only comes off as foolish. Add in how she ended up getting tricked by Jedah so easily, all the less reason for her wisdom to amount to much.

Alm fighting someone in front of him didn't change. Rudolf dying just means that he now has another enemy in front of him, being Duma and Jedah. So he kills them as well. 

So no. Once again, nothing about Celica was needed in regards to her wisdom. 

Her advice literally amounted to nothing, and she ended up swayed by Alm more in the end, because he was more right about freeing the world from gods than she was in relying on the gods. In the end, Celica was never the wise one. Alm was.

Alm still needed saving and it was thanks to her that he didn't lose right then and there. Credit is credit, no matter the excuses.

Wrong, she definitely had the right idea than primarily focusing on Rigel while letting the Faithful do whatever. She wasn't foolish and Alm definitely wasn't the "wise" one, he simply had the might but not the insight to crush his foes. He relied on his strength and faith in humanity's strength. It was a matter of "faith" than wisdom and Celica helping Alm out with Halcyon's magic is the major reason Alm's even able to slay powerful foes. His promotion being locked in story. If Celica didn't do what she did, Alm wouldn't have been successful. No amount of bias and attempts to dismiss her journey would change that. You can be misguided in some areas (like relying on gods extensively) while still having wisdom and being smart. So no, Celica isn't "foolish" with "zero wisdom" just because you don't like her. Jedah also had a great point about the state of gods but people always refuse to count it because "ewwwWWWW BLUE MAN" which never ceases to be trash logic.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Seazas

[Ottservia]

8 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Wrong, she definitely had the right idea than primarily focusing on Rigel while letting the Faithful do whatever. She wasn't foolish and Alm definitely wasn't the "wise" one, he simply had the might but not the insight to crush his foes. He relied on his strength and faith in humanity's strength.

I mean the story doesn’t necessarily support you on this front. Since when was Alm ever considered wrong by the narrative? I can only think of only one time and that’s when he kills his father. Other than that? I’m drawing a blank. If the story’s intention was to portray him in the way you say he’s portrayed then uhh they did a very bad job of that. Like a really bad job. Because again when is Alm ever considered wrong by the narrative? Again aside from that one moment never. Not once does Alm fail due to any innate flaw in his ideals. Celica on the other hand does. Several times in fact. Alm though? Not really

[Seazas]

23 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean the story doesn’t necessarily support you on this front. Since when was Alm ever considered wrong by the narrative? I can only think of only one time and that’s when he kills his father. Other than that? I’m drawing a blank. If the story’s intention was to portray him in the way you say he’s portrayed then uhh they did a very bad job of that. Like a really bad job. Because again when is Alm ever considered wrong by the narrative? Again aside from that one moment never. Not once does Alm fail due to any innate flaw in his ideals. Celica on the other hand does. Several times in fact. Alm though? Not really

Celica was completely right about facing the gods at the source. She also shows zero flaws in her usual approach, the biggest problems were her being secretive and relying too much on gods. Both of which tie into her personal character and surroundings than the actual ideal. Her actions and ideals formed an entire army of people devoted to her cause while the Deliverance was already pre set before Alm came. Both Alm and Celica are right in different ways. Alm doesn't need to be incorrect for Celica to be valid

Alm and Celica, their ideals and their respective characters correspond greatly to each other.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Seazas

[omegaxis1]

4 hours ago, Seazas said:

Celica was completely right about facing the gods at the source. She also shows zero flaws in her usual approach, the biggest problems were her being secretive and relying too much on gods. Both of which tie into her personal character and surroundings than the actual ideal. Her actions and ideals formed an entire army of people devoted to her cause while the Deliverance was already pre set before Alm came. Both Alm and Celica are right in different ways. Alm doesn't need to be incorrect for Celica to be valid

Alm and Celica, their ideals and their respective characters correspond greatly to each other.

Except the entire problem is that Celica was completely wrong in saying that they cannot fight Rigel. They can't get to the gods without fighting Rigel, meaning that Alm was right in fighting the war against Rigel, and Celica was wrong thinking that the war could be avoided. In fact, she was wrong in trying to deny her birthright which was ultimately going to lead to countless people dying from a growing floor that was happening because of the gates. 

Alm was never presented to be in the wrong. Look at the very events with Mathilda and Delthea. Whether he saves Mathilda or not, he immediately insists that he wants to help Fernand, a guy that's been nothing but a dick to him the entire time. 

And with Delthea? He gives a grand lecture to Clive, telling him that there's no difference in saving a princess from a village maiden. And then when they fought Delthea, he is the one that ordered the others not to hurt Delthea. Once again, with information that he is aware of, he already has the right judgment and wisdom, whereas Celica? Even when she gets information, she makes the silliest and most foolhardy decisions ever.

So once again, no. Alm was always shown to be wise, while Celica was the one that was foolish.

[Ottservia]

8 hours ago, Seazas said:

Celica was completely right about facing the gods at the source. She also shows zero flaws in her usual approach, the biggest problems were her being secretive and relying too much on gods. Both of which tie into her personal character and surroundings than the actual ideal. Her actions and ideals formed an entire army of people devoted to her cause while the Deliverance was already pre set before Alm came. Both Alm and Celica are right in different ways. Alm doesn't need to be incorrect for Celica to be valid

Alm and Celica, their ideals and their respective characters correspond greatly to each other.

Okay but where does the story show that she’s right? If we’re only looking at major story beats and plot points maybe like once or twice at most(When she beat Barth and Greith and even then you could argue the narrative is rewarding her for being more like Alm rather than for any of her own virtues). Beyond that the narrative mostly just shows ways in which she is wrong. She gets to Mila’s temple only to find out Mila has been taken meaning the journey she had up til now was mostly meaningless. She’s punished for putting too much faith in the gods. She almost gives into the duma faithful because of her kind and caring nature. She fully gives into Jedah because he takes advantage of her kindness. She’s wrong about Alm in the sense that he never loses his way or gives into his ambition or hate. So how exactly is she right again?

[Seazas]

11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except the entire problem is that Celica was completely wrong in saying that they cannot fight Rigel. They can't get to the gods without fighting Rigel, meaning that Alm was right in fighting the war against Rigel, and Celica was wrong thinking that the war could be avoided. In fact, she was wrong in trying to deny her birthright which was ultimately going to lead to countless people dying from a growing floor that was happening because of the gates. 

Alm was never presented to be in the wrong. Look at the very events with Mathilda and Delthea. Whether he saves Mathilda or not, he immediately insists that he wants to help Fernand, a guy that's been nothing but a dick to him the entire time. 

And with Delthea? He gives a grand lecture to Clive, telling him that there's no difference in saving a princess from a village maiden. And then when they fought Delthea, he is the one that ordered the others not to hurt Delthea. Once again, with information that he is aware of, he already has the right judgment and wisdom, whereas Celica? Even when she gets information, she makes the silliest and most foolhardy decisions ever.

So once again, no. Alm was always shown to be wise, while Celica was the one that was foolish.

Celica taking her journey is the entire reason they were able to optimally handle both sides of the sluice gate. Also, she didn't have to take on Rigel at its source nor Rudolf. Focusing on Mila was perfectly reasonable since a goddess like her is a game changer and it's pure fucking hindsight to act like she was foolish for pursuing such an important figure Valentia relied on.

Alm doesn't have to be wrong for Celica to be valid and right in her own ways. Alm having heart and ideals that matched his strength doesn't make him the wise one. Hell, him convincing Clive was a matter of passion and beliefs that Clive himself highlights. Celica is wise, occasionally misguided due to acting on her emotions than logic but that's fairly reasonable considering her past and general character in Echoes. Alm spent the game just having heart and acting out of might, which gets the job done but Celica can compliment Alm's own ways. Since her insight differs from his in some ways and they'd be more effective together than apart. Alm fights what's right in front of him and has a simple but effective thought process with little regard to the bigger picture. He simply stubbornly stays to what he thinks is right. Celica does a similar thing while thinking of the bigger picture, completely different from Alm's simpler approach but also works in tandem with it.

7 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Okay but where does the story show that she’s right? If we’re only looking at major story beats and plot points maybe like once or twice at most(When she beat Barth and Greith and even then you could argue the narrative is rewarding her for being more like Alm rather than for any of her own virtues). Beyond that the narrative mostly just shows ways in which she is wrong. She gets to Mila’s temple only to find out Mila has been taken meaning the journey she had up til now was mostly meaningless. She’s punished for putting too much faith in the gods. She almost gives into the duma faithful because of her kind and caring nature. She fully gives into Jedah because he takes advantage of her kindness. She’s wrong about Alm in the sense that he never loses his way or gives into his ambition or hate. So how exactly is she right again?

Her journey had a lot of merit: She saves multiple people in Zofia from the Whitewings to the people suppressed by Barth, Celica had to turn part of the Sluice gate or Alm would've been in a shitty spot since he doesn't know where the other part of it is, Halcyon canonically makes Alm stronger: giving him the strength to take on the rest of the trials, Alm gets saved from Dragon's Maw, Celica got to find out the truth relating to Mila and as she moved forward she took down several members of the Faith that would've been a huge problem to Alm later on. Celica doesn't believe that Alm was actually going to lose his way either, she directly apologizes and it's made abundantly clear that she said what she said out of raw emotion. A common thing with Celica which originates from her personal background than her ideals. Also, Act 2 was blatantly a vision that if Celica kicked back and didn't do shit Alm would've died. Which makes sense due to the Sluice Gate + the entire thing with Halcyon. That's not counting the tons of other allies to Desaix/Rudolf like Grieth that Celica rid of. 

Alm and Celica having similarities like you highlighted is perfectly fine too. Shows how well they work together since they have their own strengths and weaknesses that allow each other to work. Celica being more passive and malleable while Alm is sturdier and straightforard.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Seazas

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Celica taking her journey is the entire reason they were able to optimally handle both sides of the sluice gate. Also, she didn't have to take on Rigel at its source nor Rudolf. Focusing on Mila was perfectly reasonable since a goddess like her is a game changer and it's pure fucking hindsight to act like she was foolish for pursuing such an important figure Valentia relied on.

Alm doesn't have to be wrong for Celica to be valid and right in her own ways. Alm having heart and ideals that matched his strength doesn't make him the wise one. Hell, him convincing Clive was a matter of passion and beliefs that Clive himself highlights. Celica is wise, occasionally misguided due to acting on her emotions than logic but that's fairly reasonable considering her past and general character in Echoes. Alm spent the game just having heart and acting out of might, which gets the job done but Celica can compliment Alm's own ways. Since her insight differs from his in some ways and they'd be more effective together than apart.

Her journey had a lot of merit: She saves multiple people in Zofia from the Whitewings to the people suppressed by Barth, Celica had to turn part of the Sluice gate or Alm would've been in a shitty spot since he doesn't know where the other part of it is, Halcyon canonically makes Alm stronger: giving him the strength to take on the rest of the trials, Alm gets saved from Dragon's Maw, Celica got to find out the truth relating to Mila and as she moved forward she took down several members of the Faith that would've been a huge problem to Alm later on. Celica doesn't believe that Alm was actually going to lose his way either, she directly apologizes and it's made abundantly clear that she said what she said out of raw emotion. A common thing with Celica which originates from her personal background than her ideals. Also, Act 2 was blatantly a vision that if Celica kicked back and didn't do shit Alm would've died. Which makes sense due to the Sluice Gate + the entire thing with Halcyon. That's not counting the tons of other allies to Desaix/Rudolf like Grieth that Celica rid of. 

Problem is, nothing about Celica shows her so called wisdom. If anything, all she does is the exact same thing as Alm. Fighting enemies and beating them, rather than actually solving the very thing she insists they should do. She keeps insisting that they have to save Mila, and then all the problems will be solved, only for her to pull and Alm and just go with killing any bad guy that she hears about, ultimately contradicting what she herself insists they oughta focus on. 

You say that she doesn't have to be right to prove that she's valid in her own ways, except her validity is only amounts to actually not following up on what she originally said, and basically conceding to Alm's way more or less. 

[Seazas]

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Problem is, nothing about Celica shows her so called wisdom. If anything, all she does is the exact same thing as Alm. Fighting enemies and beating them, rather than actually solving the very thing she insists they should do. She keeps insisting that they have to save Mila, and then all the problems will be solved, only for her to pull and Alm and just go with killing any bad guy that she hears about, ultimately contradicting what she herself insists they oughta focus on. 

You say that she doesn't have to be right to prove that she's valid in her own ways, except her validity is only amounts to actually not following up on what she originally said, and basically conceding to Alm's way more or less. 

If she followed Alm's way she would've been apart of the war and focused on taking Rudolf down. Celica does find a lot of truths and uses them to her benefit, she directly provides the power of a powerful Duma Faithful member to boost Alm's strength to successfully conquer the rest of Rigel. She and Alm naturally would be similar to each other in some ways and having to fight is one of them. This is Fire Emblem of course there's going to be fighting. Celica never contradicted herself, she casted her own "judgement" since the beginning of her route and treats fighting as a matter of self defense. The overall goal being to minimize bloodshed and find Mila. She does in fact personally minimize bloodshed by choosing to avoid the war and save many people that were in deep trouble by Grieth and other members of the Faith.

Alm is different from her since war is war and he even says that anyone he meets on the battlefield is his enemy (Tatiana's conversation). Alm shows to have a simple approach that works well in war. He's studier but less malleable since he directly loses without Celica's help and without her, he dies without knowing the truth. Celica is less sturdy emotionally but proved to be more malleable. She definitely has wisdom, proving by the sound judgement to pursue a major gamebreaker such as Mila and learning many things Alm did not learn canonically. Her occasional poor decision came from a place of intense emotion (largely due to her past) and/or distrust and that's especially because of her past. It wasn't a "rational decision" that's supposed to reflect upon her wisdom.

She tends to think a lot more about other factors and the bigger picture, having a big passive charm that earned many others fighting for her purely out of gratitude. That goes hand in hand with Alm's might and firm tendencies that are held unwaveringly throughout SOV.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Seazas