I really hope Echoes' direction of new characters are the standard for future remakes than Shadow Dragon + New Mystery's.

[Ottservia]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't think it'd be shit writing if Alm took Rudolf's death in his stride. Rudolf is both a complete stranger for Alm and his enemy. Him reacting without guilt could have easily have been played off as "He may be your father, but he wasn't your daddy." For contrast, Robin isn't all that broken up about killing Validar as far as I recall. Killing one's father isn't an immediate "Character must be sad" narrative choice. You could make the character sad or you could make the character not sad, it's all about how you handle their perspective.

Exactly and the fact that they chose to have Alm suffer due to what he did is the narrative’s way of saying he’s wrong! Cause like you said they could’ve easily shrugged it off as something not important but the fact that it is portrayed as this tragic event that could’ve been avoided spells out what the narrative wants you take away from it.

Even going off of the Robin example. Validar is supposed to represent the idea of being unable to escape one’s past or bloodline as Validar is a prominent figure of Robin’s past being his father. He can control Robin through this connection. Robin being able to shake that control and kill their father is the story’s way of showing that you can overcome your past through learning from them and with the help of your friends. Chrom and Robin are able to beat Validar by learning from the past and using that information to overcome it(because they failed to beat Validar before in the original timeline). In that way they are narratively rewarded because they win the battle and thematic conflict. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Ottservia

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Exactly and the fact that they chose to have Alm suffer due to what he did is the narrative’s way of saying he’s wrong! Cause like you said they could’ve easily shrugged it off as something not important but the fact that it is portrayed as this tragic event that could’ve been avoided spells out what the narrative wants you take away from it.

Are you sure that's what the narrative is saying? He can think it's wrong without the narrative agreeing with him, after all.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Exactly and the fact that they chose to have Alm suffer due to what he did is the narrative’s way of saying he’s wrong! Cause like you said they could’ve easily shrugged it off as something not important but the fact that it is portrayed as this tragic event that could’ve been avoided spells out what the narrative wants you take away from it.

Even going off of the Robin example. Validar is supposed to represent the idea of being unable to escape one’s past or bloodline as Validar is a prominent figure of Robin’s past being his father. He can control Robin through this connection. Robin being able to shake that control and kill their father is the story’s way of showing that you can overcome your past through learning from them and with the help of your friends. Chrom and Robin are able to beat Validar by learning from the past and using that information to overcome it(because they failed to beat Validar before in the original timeline). In that way they are narratively rewarded because they win the battle and thematic conflict. 

Though I suppose from the perspective of "Alm is meant to be super wonder man" one could argue that if Alm had been less upset about Rudolf's death it would have made him "Too Rigelian" when he's meant to be the best of both worlds and thus needs to express Mila's compassion for the dead stranger who could have given him a kidney.

[Ottservia]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Are you sure that's what the narrative is saying? He can think it's wrong without the narrative agreeing with him, after all.

Well then suppose he is narratively rewarded for it? How is he narratively rewarded for it? He becomes king but that doesn’t really mean anything right away nor does it help him resolve any other conflict in the story in fact it creates more conflict with Berkut so that’s treated more as a narrative punishment if anything. He doesn’t get Falchion out of it either so... how exactly is he being rewarded? All he really gets out of his father’s death is despair and suffering which aren’t good things so yeah

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Ottservia said:

Well then suppose he is narratively rewarded for it? How is he narratively rewarded for it? He becomes king but that doesn’t really mean anything right away nor does it help him resolve any other conflict in the story in fact it creates more conflict with Berkut so that’s treated more as a narrative punishment if anything. He doesn’t get Falchion out of it either so... how exactly is he being rewarded? All he really gets out of his father’s death is despair and suffering which aren’t good things so yeah

You sure he's meant to be rewarded at that point either?

Per Rudolf's gambit and the prophecy, the work's not done just yet to be rewarded for it.

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You sure he's meant to be rewarded at that point either?

Per Rudolf's gambit and the prophecy, the work's not done just yet to be rewarded for it.

*sigh* you still don’t get it do you. This event is portrayed as a major plot point so the immediate consequences are subject to analysis. Let me put it to you this way. Let’s say you have two characters fighting. The overall theme of the story is about hard work overcoming natural talent. You have the scrappy underdog vs the gifted genius. If you want the outcome of this fight to be line with the overall themes of the story obviously the underdog who works hard should beat out the naturally gifted genius who doesn’t work hard. Does that make it clear enough for you? 
 

Let’s use another example from SoV. Celica trusts Jedah to free Mila and keep her friends safe in exchange for her soul. One of the major flaws in Celica’s character is that she’s naive and too overly trusting. She places her trust in Jedah when she isn’t supposed to because Jedah is an obviously evil who won’t keep his promise. And guess what happens when she decides to trust him? Her friends are sent off to die to terrors, Mila is unable to be revived, and she has her soul taken away. Now you tell me. Is the narrative trying to say Celica took the correct course of action? I don’t think so because nothing good comes of it in the immediate aftermath. Good things do eventually happen but that’s only after she finally realizes her mistakes and Alm is able to trust in her and Falchion to bring her back. They are narratively rewarded for realizing their mistakes and trusting each other which is what the narrative is about. That’s generally how all this works

[Seazas]

47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't think it'd be shit writing if Alm took Rudolf's death in it's stride. Rudolf is both a complete stranger for Alm and his enemy. Him reacting without guilt could have easily have been played off as "He may be your father, but he wasn't your daddy." For contrast, Robin isn't all that broken up about killing Validar as far as I recall. Killing one's father isn't an immediate "Character must be sad" narrative choice. You could make the character sad or you could make the character not sad, it's all about how you handle their perspective.

(yes, I said I wouldn't respond. Someone please help).

You did not just compare Rudolf to Validar. Rudolf isn't the scum of the earth and even specifically sent Alm so he wouldn't have to be in danger by the Faithful (confirmed in the prism). Rudolf doesn't even attack Alm. Meanwhile Validar is a complete piece of shit. This entire argument that "Alm MUST represent Duma's flaws because he killed Rudolf" is fucking bonkers and show how much people are caught over headcanons than the actual facts. 

He doesn't represent Mila either, Celica does and Celica does alone. Alm not being a jackass doesn't mean he has Mila's passion and love like Celica does.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Seazas

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Thank you for completely missing the point of my argument 

Your point is ridiculous. You can't even provide official proof or even anything that remotely implies Alm represents anything outside of what Duma stated. That being his strength, Duma's strength. The mental and physical strength to face the trials ahead. The fact that you hinge on him "being narratively punished" for something Alm had no control over and doesn't impede his unification of Valentia is a joke. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Seazas

[Jotari]

  

20 minutes ago, Seazas said:

You did not just compare Rudolf to Validar. Rudolf isn't the scum of the earth and even specifically sent Alm so he wouldn't have to be in danger by the Faithful (confirmed in the prism). Rudolf doesn't even attack Alm. Meanwhile Validar is a complete piece of shit. This entire argument that "Alm MUST represent Duma's flaws because he killed Rudolf" is fucking bonkers and show how much people are caught over headcanons than the actual facts. 

He doesn't represent Mila either, Celica does and Celica does alone. Alm not being a jackass doesn't mean he has Mila's passion and love like Celica does.

1. Calm down.

20 minutes ago, Seazas said:

You did not just compare Rudolf to Validar. Rudolf isn't the scum of the earth and even specifically sent Alm so he wouldn't have to be in danger by the Faithful (confirmed in the prism).

2. Does Alm know that.

14 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Your point is ridiculous. You can't even provide official proof or even anything that remotely implies Alm represents anything outside of what Duma stated.

3. Do you have anything official saying that your interpretation of the same script is more correct than anyone else's? That's the issue I have with all these Echoes conversations. It's basically two sides pointing at each other saying "I'm right and your wrong" without any actual new perspectives being presented.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

*sigh* you still don’t get it do you. This event is portrayed as a major plot point so the immediate consequences are subject to analysis. Let me put it to you this way. Let’s say you have two characters fighting. The overall theme of the story is about hard work overcoming natural talent. You have the scrappy underdog vs the gifted genius. If you want the outcome of this fight to be line with the overall themes of the story obviously the underdog who works hard should beat out the naturally gifted genius who doesn’t work hard. Does that make it clear enough for you? 
 

Let’s use another example from SoV. Celica trusts Jedah to free Mila and keep her friends safe in exchange for her soul. One of the major flaws in Celica’s character is that she’s naive and too overly trusting. She places her trust in Jedah when she isn’t supposed to because Jedah is an obviously evil who won’t keep his promise. And guess what happens when she decides to trust him? Her friends are sent off to die to terrors, Mila is unable to be revived, and she has her soul taken away. Now you tell me. Is the narrative trying to say Celica took the correct course of action? I don’t think so because nothing good comes of it in the immediate aftermath. Good things do eventually happen but that’s only after she finally realizes her mistakes and Alm is able to trust in her and Falchion to bring her back. They are narratively rewarded for realizing their mistakes and trusting each other which is what the narrative is about. That’s generally how all this works

Again, you sure it is what you think it is? Could be both our views, though. Since Rudolf engineered the whole thing anyway, any analysis should not ignore that. The overall theme is about the doctrines and of whether humanity should be led or take in their hands their destiny. The other bit is only a supplemental since it aligns to the themes of the doctrines in a mostly perpendicular way. Since Alm still had to work hard to hone his natural talent, thus by making use of both, he succeeded. Also, the fight isn't about underdog vs genius anyway since Rudolf deliberately held back. He wants Alm to succeed, so the fight wasn't going to answer that honestly anyway.

Actually, Jedah did no such thing. It was Dolth who threatened Celica's friends if she didn't went with him to Duma Tower. Jedah instead simply told her to come, and while he did say he would kill them, he made no such bargain of sparing them. Instead, he showed her Mila's petrified form, told her about the madness that gripped both Duma and Mila, and that if she gave up her soul they could be restored. He only warped her friends away when they started to say she shouldn't do it, but even before that Celica had already decided she would. She didn't had to trade their lives for hers. Celica did not ignore that Jedah was evil... but here's the thing. Jedah is still the leader of the Duma Faithful, who for years had access to both dragons, was aware of the degeneration, and we know he does have a genuine desire to see them restored. Or at least, just Duma. Celica is only naive to think Jedah plans for things to go back to how they were. And that's the thing. He and her agree on the gods keeping guide on humanity, and Jedah also has genuine concern for Duma as Celica does for Mila. Was it foolish to think Jedah's proposed plan would work? Yes. But then... what else can be done? We the players at least know that dragon blood binded bloodlines do have power above else. Otherwise Nuibaba wouldn't think she'd get something out of sacrificing Alm's soul. The game doesn't state either if Jedah's plan would or not work. THere is evidence that points he himself thought it would work, which means him leading Celica is the blind leading the blind. She goes with it because nothing else points to how else can Duma and Mila return to leading Valentia back to how it was before the whole mess began and she's not willing yet to accept they should let them die and move on.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Seazas]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Does Alm know that?

Rudolf literally sits there and lets Alm strike him down. And while on his death bed he's talking about how proud he is of Alm.

You're telling me that compares to Validar? The piece of shit?

Edited August 29, 2020 by Seazas

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

Rudolf literally sits there and lets Alm strike him down. And while on his death bed he's talking about how proud he is of Alm.

You're telling me that compares to Validar? The piece of the shit?

Yes. Because they are both fathers killed by the protagonist. The fact that you think I'm talking about them as people and brought up something Alm doesn't know about shows how little attention you're actually paying. It's not about them as people, it's about how the moments were chosen to be presented. Nothing about Rudolf forces Alm's character to mourn his death. If Alm didn't mourn Rudolf's death after discovering he's his father it would not have been poor writing (well I mean it could have been, it just wouldn't inherently be poor writing).

[Ottservia]

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Again, you sure it is what you think it is? Could be both our views, though. Since Rudolf engineered the whole thing anyway, any analysis should not ignore that. The overall theme is about the doctrines and of whether humanity should be led or take in their hands their destiny. The other bit is only a supplemental since it aligns to the themes of the doctrines in a mostly perpendicular way. Since Alm still had to work hard to hone his natural talent, thus by making use of both, he succeeded. Also, the fight isn't about underdog vs genius anyway since Rudolf deliberately held back. He wants Alm to succeed, so the fight wasn't going to answer that honestly anyway.

Actually, Jedah did no such thing. It was Dolth who threatened Celica's friends if she didn't went with him to Duma Tower. Jedah instead simply told her to come, and while he did say he would kill them, he made no such bargain of sparing them. Instead, he showed her Mila's petrified form, told her about the madness that gripped both Duma and Mila, and that if she gave up her soul they could be restored. He only warped her friends away when they started to say she shouldn't do it, but even before that Celica had already decided she would. She didn't had to trade their lives for hers. Celica did not ignore that Jedah was evil... but here's the thing. Jedah is still the leader of the Duma Faithful, who for years had access to both dragons, was aware of the degeneration, and we know he does have a genuine desire to see them restored. Or at least, just Duma. Celica is only naive to think Jedah plans for things to go back to how they were. And that's the thing. He and her agree on the gods keeping guide on humanity, and Jedah also has genuine concern for Duma as Celica does for Mila. Was it foolish to think Jedah's proposed plan would work? Yes. But then... what else can be done? We the players at least know that dragon blood binded bloodlines do have power above else. Otherwise Nuibaba wouldn't think she'd get something out of sacrificing Alm's soul. The game doesn't state either if Jedah's plan would or not work. THere is evidence that points he himself thought it would work, which means him leading Celica is the blind leading the blind. She goes with it because nothing else points to how else can Duma and Mila return to leading Valentia back to how it was before the whole mess began and she's not willing yet to accept they should let them die and move on.

Once again you completely miss the point I was trying to make

[Seazas]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes. Because they are both fathers killed by the protagonist. The fact that you think I'm talking about them as people and brought up something Alm doesn't know about shows how little attention you're actually paying. It's not about them as people, it's about how the moments were chosen to be presented. Nothing about Rudolf forces Alm's character to mourn his death. If Alm didn't mourn Rudolf's death after discovering he's his father it would not have been poor writing (well I mean it could have been, it just wouldn't inherently be poor writing).

Nope, them as people have a massive difference. Rudolf isn't an irredeemable asshole and specifically shows at least a little care to Alm. It makes perfect sense for Alm to care about family since he never had the chance. The "character not being fit to mourn him" is literal headcanon since even in Gaiden, Alm is shaken up and sad about Rudolf. This is a joke to ever imply Alm not being an ass means he's written wrong.

Alm:
But why did something like this…
Why could I not avoid fighting against my own father?

Mycen:
Don’t cry, Alm…

Edited August 29, 2020 by Seazas

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Once again you completely miss the point I was trying to make

What else is there to it? If there's a reward or punishment, sure, maybe. It's just they may not be the ones you're claiming for.

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Nope, them as people have a massive difference. Rudolf isn't an irredeemable asshole and specifically shows at least a little care to Alm. It makes perfect sense for Alm to care about family since he never had the chance. The "character not being fit to mourn him" is literal headcanon since even in Gaiden, Alm is shaken up and sad about Rudolf. This is a joke to ever imply Alm not being an ass means he's written wrong.

Alm:
But why did something like this…
Why could I not avoid fighting against my own father?

Mycen:
Don’t cry, Alm…

I didn't say that. Please listen to what I'm actually saying. I never suggested it was wrong for Alm to mourn Rudolf. I said that if he didn't it would not have broken the narrative. Alm mourning Rudolf and Alm not mourning Rudolf are two potential paths the narrative could have taken, they went with him mourning Rudolf, why, we can discuss thematically and in terms of character arc (Ottservia offered one, he did wrong thematically and this is a narrative punishment, I offered another, Alm must mourn him to express the ideals of Mila as he would be perceived as too cold otherwise). But it was not a forced choice. There was nothing about Rudolf or the context that made it the only option to take come that moment.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

What else is there to it? If there's a reward or punishment, sure, maybe. It's just they may not be the ones you're claiming for.

You’re missing the nuance of it all is what I’m trying to say. Think about what happens in this narrative for a second. Think about the characters’ actions and the consequences of those actions. Celica trusts an obviously evil dude and bad things happen as a result therefore it can be reasonably inferred that she made the wrong choice because she is narratively punished for it. The problem with how you interpreted my argument is that you probably thought I was saying that’s bad writing but it’s not. In fact I’d consider that good writing because it follows the themes of the story in a deep and nuanced manner. Celica is naive that is a flaw in her character and that flaw is exploited by the narrative to get its point across in that she is punished for being naive. It creates problems for her and her overcoming that flaw is a central part if her character arc coming to its climax when she chooses to trust Jedah. It’s a good arc and I think it’s well handled.

the problem is with Alm because the way he’s written is so confusing. He doesn’t really have a flaw to overcome unlike Celica. He shows signs of recklessness here or there but that never really gets him into trouble at all. It never causes him problems in fact he’s rewarded for it more often than not. Now that’s not inherently bad writing on its own. Alm can work perfectly fine as a static protagonist where the development is more in how he causes change in other characters rather than himself. And that seems to be the case for the majority of the story as shown with Clive, Fernand, Clair, Berkut, Zeke, and Celica. But then you have that outlier of him killing his father which is presented as a moment of character growth for him which is odd. I’m not saying static characters can’t turn into dynamic characters or vice versa(I mean Robin and Chrom’s character arcs are exactly that hell my favorite anime character(Naruto) of all time shifts from a static character to a dynamic one part way through the series) but generally the shift doesn’t really happen naturally and his character from that point on is treated as if he always was a dynamic character when no he was more of a static character before hand. It doesn’t really make sense. Do they want me to believe that he was a dynamic character or a static one. Cause as it stands they kind of went half way in both directions and it didn’t turn out too well. There’s no real connection from when he’s a static protag to when he’s a dynamic protag.

him being a dynamic protagonist doesn’t really work because he had no real flaws to overcome and grow from so any moment of growth he does have ultimately falls flat because he was never shown to be a flawed character in the first place which would be fune if they kept as him as a static protagonist but they don’t and that’s what’s so confusing

[Acacia Sgt]

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You’re missing the nuance of it all is what I’m trying to say. Think about what happens in this narrative for a second. Think about the characters’ actions and the consequences of those actions. Celica trusts an obviously evil dude and bad things happen as a result therefore it can be reasonably inferred that she made the wrong choice because she is narratively punished for it. The problem with how you interpreted my argument is that you probably thought I was saying that’s bad writing but it’s not. In fact I’d consider that good writing because it follows the themes of the story in a deep and nuanced manner. Celica is naive that is a flaw in her character and that flaw is exploited by the narrative to get its point across in that she is punished for being naive. It creates problems for her and her overcoming that flaw is a central part if her character arc coming to its climax when she chooses to trust Jedah. It’s a good arc and I think it’s well handled.

the problem is with Alm because the way he’s written is so confusing. He doesn’t really have a flaw to overcome unlike Celica. He shows signs of recklessness here or there but that never really gets him into trouble at all. It never causes him problems in fact he’s rewarded for it more often than not. Now that’s not inherently bad writing on its own. Alm can work perfectly fine as a static protagonist where the development is more in how he causes change in other characters rather than himself. And that seems to be the case for the majority of the story as shown with Clive, Fernand, Clair, Berkut, Zeke, and Celica. But then you have that outlier of him killing his father which is presented as a moment of character growth for him which is odd. I’m not saying static characters can’t turn into dynamic characters or vice versa(I mean Robin and Chrom’s character arcs are exactly that hell my favorite anime character(Naruto) of all time shifts from a static character to a dynamic one part way through the series) but generally the shift doesn’t really happen naturally and his character from that point on is treated as if he always was a dynamic character when no he was more of a static character before hand. It doesn’t really make sense. Do they want me to believe that he was a dynamic character or a static one. Cause as it stands they kind of went half way in both directions and it didn’t turn out too well. There’s no real connection from when he’s a static protag to when he’s a dynamic protag.

him being a dynamic protagonist doesn’t really work because he had no real flaws to overcome and grow from so any moment of growth he does have ultimately falls flat because he was never shown to be a flawed character in the first place which would be fune if they kept as him as a static protagonist but they don’t and that’s what’s so confusing

Well, to clarify, never brought up if it was good or bad writing.

Thing is, how is him thinking he should mourn a sudden flip? Or a sign that it's a narrative reward/punishment? If there was a punishment, it was when Alm deciding to mourn caused Mycen to tell him off for it. I already stated what the narrative importance/theme/event of that scene was. If Alm felt he still had to mourn for the man... so be it. The narrative reacts accordingly, with Mycen telling him off.

To put it convolutedly, Alm disagrees with the narrative Rudolf created, and the overall story narrative disagrees with his disagreeing.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

54 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

THere is evidence that points he himself thought it would work, which means him leading Celica is the blind leading the blind. She goes with it because nothing else points to how else can Duma and Mila return to leading Valentia back to how it was before the whole mess began and she's not willing yet to accept they should let them die and move on.

Jedah's plan was to use Celica's soul to heal Duma's madness, right? I can't recall any evidence that he even wanted to do that taking the ending into account. He does successfully manage to sacrifice Celica to Duma yet he seems to be more delighted to have her as a witch than it having any great affect on Duma. And when confronted after Mila some how undoes the tribute he basically says he doesn't give a crap if Duma's will is to inflict suffering on everyone as a result of madness. So long as it's Duma's will it doesn't matter. I think it'd be great if Jedah was being genuine about wanting to heal Duma, but I can't recall anything to suggest he was. Jedah succeeding in sacrificing Celica and thus healing Duma would also mean Mila went and undid that sacrifice and thus made Duma crazy again, which wouldn't really make sense for her character either, unless it's possible to both use Celica as a sacrifice to heal Duma while simulantiously undoing that without losing Duma's good mental health. Duma does seem pretty lucid when you fight him, but if Duma isn't mad it leaves a bit of a question of why they're even fighting. Just pure deicidal heresy? Celica does at least seem to still think Duma's mad in her final battle quote when Alm kills him, something about thanking him for all he's done and now putting him to rest and Mila herself also encourages you to kill him despite loving him, so Mila at least thinks Duma's mad. Wether it be because Jedah never intended to or couldn't heal him with Celica's soul (or maybe couldn't heal him permanently?), or whether because Mila rescuing Celica undid the healing I'm not sure, but I'd lean towards the former for Mila's character. The whole Celica actually being sacrificed despite consent being needed to become a witch and then Mila undoing the sacrifice and somehow returning the soul Duma consumed (or giving her a new soul?) is all a bit weird as far as plot points go.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Jedah's plan was to use Celica's soul to heal Duma's madness, right? I can't recall any evidence that he even wanted to do that taking the ending into account. He does successfully manage to sacrifice Celica to Duma yet he seems to be more delighted to have her as a witch than it having any great affect on Duma. And when confronted after Mila some how undoes the tribute he basically says he doesn't give a crap if Duma's will is to inflict suffering on everyone as a result of madness. So long as it's Duma's will it doesn't matter. I think it'd be great if Jedah was being genuine about wanting to heal Duma, but I can't recall anything to suggest he was. Unless we say Duma isn't mad when you fight him, he does seem pretty lucid, but if Duma isn't mad it leaves a bit of a question of why they're even fighting. Just pure deicidal heresy? Celica does seem to still think Duma's mad in her final battle quote when Alm kills him, something about thanking him for all he's done and now putting him to rest.

Well, you have scenes like this:

Jedah: Are you in pain, my lord Duma? The sight tears at my heart… But you needn’t endure it much longer. I’ve had report that the girl has left the island. I will deliver her to you without fail. She of the fated children… Bearer of the Brand…

He's alone with just Duma there. If he's not being truthful, then who is he trying to fool there. Duma himself?

Also, this is his full plan:

Jedah: Go, witch. Offer up your fellow Brand-bearer’s soul to your new master! Ah, the sight of fate’s twin children fighting to the death… How marvelous! A reenactment of Duma and Mila’s struggles from legend!

He plans on using both their souls, not just Celica's.

Well, you could consider that him becoming unhinged. His plans failed, whether because they would've not worked and/or actual sabotage. He's like "Fine, if they can't be cured of their madness, so be it. They must still govern over humanity, however". Mad gods over no gods at all, basically.

The madness is gradual. They were at the point they'd be flipping between being mad and lucid, with the times being lucid being shorter and shorter. Duma being lucid at the end was just one of those moments. Or dying gave him some forced lucidity. Either of.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, you have scenes like this:

Jedah: Are you in pain, my lord Duma? The sight tears at my heart… But you needn’t endure it much longer. I’ve had report that the girl has left the island. I will deliver her to you without fail. She of the fated children… Bearer of the Brand…

He's alone with just Duma there. If he's not being truthful, then who is he trying to fool there. Duma himself?

Also, this is his full plan:

Jedah: Go, witch. Offer up your fellow Brand-bearer’s soul to your new master! Ah, the sight of fate’s twin children fighting to the death… How marvelous! A reenactment of Duma and Mila’s struggles from legend!

He plans on using both their souls, not just Celica's.

Well, you could consider that him becoming unhinged. His plans failed, whether because they would've not worked and/or actual sabotage. He's like "Fine, if they can't be cured of their madness, so be it. They must still govern over humanity, however".

The madness is gradual. They were at the point they'd be flipping between being mad and lucid, with the times being lucid being shorter and shorter. Duma being lucid at the end was just one of those moments. Or dying gave him some forced lucidity. Either of.

Well I guess if we take it that he needed both their souls there might be something to it. Though I also think it could be just that Duma demands souls and Jedah is faithful enough to bring them to him without particularly caring why. Even the quote you have there where he's taking delight in them fighting is more like "This shit is entertaining as all hell" more than "Finally my goal of healing my ailing god is on the cusp of happening." We also have to consider Mila's actions here. If Jedah's plan does have some chance of success and he's right on the edge of getting it before Mila interfers, then why should Mila actually help Alm and Celica? Just because the life of two humans is too precious compared to Duma's well being? Mad Mila who blew away her own followers probably wouldn't think so, then again not mad dead spirit Mila might think otherwise in her boundless benevolence. Of course the other possibility here is that it wouldn't work, but Duma lied to Jedah to make him think it would work and Mila knew it wouldn't, hence why she interfered. Still it just never seems to be high on Jedah's agenda that Duma is mentally sound, just that Duma's will is followed. For example instead of Jedah saying "So what if Duma wants everyone to suffer?" after Celica is saved he could have told them to just stfu and sacrifice themselves to solve everything. I guess what I'm saying is from the moment onwards where Jedah says "Ha, I never even had the power to save Mila," he never actually expresses any desire to save Duma. Just to serve him. If the intention was that Jedah was being genuine (wether the plan would work or not) then they could have made it a bit clearer from that point on. For example in these lines.

Jedah: Keh heh heh… How hopeless a fool can you be? Rejoice, Lord Duma! I have brought the Brand-bearer who threatens your order. Take her soul unto you and feast!

Celica: No! Stop! Let me go! AAAAALM!

Jedah: Ohh… Such potent energy! Bwaaaa ha ha ha! My Lord Duma is pleased! You needn’t wait much longer. I shall offer up the other Brand-bearer’s soul to you presently!

Instead of citing the reason for sacrifice being that Celica threatens Duma's order just generally showing happiness at Duma munching on a soul, he could have said something along the lines of "Wait a little longer and you will be your true self once more" or something.

[Acacia Sgt]

It wasn't just him offering souls. He always brings up the brands when it comes down to talking about offering Alm and Celica's souls. It has precedent. Nuibaba is portrayed as also expecting things out of sacrificing the soul of a dragon blood branded. Even if its to Medusa. Funny thing, both she and Jedah are made to be around the same age.

Yes, it may be an implication that it wouldn't have worked anyway, hence Mila acting.

Admittedly, he acts like that since he still meant to be a villain. The opposite of Rudolf, who simply takes on a villainous role. Again, scenes like that one in Act 2 shows there is some genuine desire. It's just that he also has his other less altruistic plans.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It wasn't just him offering souls. He always brings up the brands when it comes down to talking about offering Alm and Celica's souls. It has precedent. Nuibaba is portrayed as also expecting things out of sacrificing the soul of a dragon blood branded. Even if its to Medusa. Funny thing, both she and Jedah are made to be around the same age.

Yes, it may be an implication that it wouldn't have worked anyway, hence Mila acting.

Admittedly, he acts like that since he still meant to be a villain. The opposite of Rudolf, who simply takes on a villainous role. Again, scenes like that one in Act 2 shows there is some genuine desire. It's just that he also has his other less altruistic plans.

Well l I don't dispute the branded souls are worth more in terms of soul calories, I just don't think Jedah acts like sacrificing them to Duma will do much more than either sate his gluttony or make him stronger.

[vanguard333]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Hey, someone's quoting from an old thread of mine. Maybe I'll jump into this convo *looks at the next few messages*. Nope. I know exactly where this is going and it's a big flat circle.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

(yes, I said I wouldn't respond. Someone please help).

I'm so sorry for unwittingly dragging you into this, Jotari! I was just quoting that old thread to try to explain a point that I was trying to make about Rudolf being a villain and foil to Alm (at least if Alm hadn't been written like a generic Marth lord); I didn't realize that I would be dragging you into this. 

[Ottservia]

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, to clarify, never brought up if it was good or bad writing.

Thing is, how is him thinking he should mourn a sudden flip? Or a sign that it's a narrative reward/punishment? If there was a punishment, it was when Alm deciding to mourn caused Mycen to tell him off for it. I already stated what the narrative importance/theme/event of that scene was. If Alm felt he still had to mourn for the man... so be it. The narrative reacts accordingly, with Mycen telling him off.

To put it convolutedly, Alm disagrees with the narrative Rudolf created, and the overall story narrative disagrees with his disagreeing.

I don’t know how to spell it out for you more clearly than I already have. It’s a narrative punishment because he suffers for it. He gets depressed because of it so it’s logical to assume that he suffers for doing something the narrative would deem wrong. How do I explain my point anymore clearer than that