FE9 Tier List!!!

[Reikken]

50% spd growth

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=makalov&game=9e

[riariadne]

That's a shame. I though it was like 70%.

[YokaiKnight]

Third off, I'm tired of people saying "just because x is very available does not make him high tier" as a comparison. It's stupid; clearly the point is (if they're trying to prove x is good) that they're good for most the time they're available and their availability is decent at the same time, as opposed to just availability.

I got your point, and I can how that's a frustrating argument, but I did take into consideration the whole "available::good" thing in my arguments. wateva i guess

to upper mid goes makalov

Sweet tooth, I owe you like a dollar for posting tho--

Makalov ... [is] High Tier material

I'll second feeling that those three are too low. I haven't done any recent re-examinations, though.

To be honest, though, on here:

Upper Mid

Volke

Zihark

Muarim

Stefan

Makalov

Rhys

Soren

Mordecai

Geoffrey

Nephenee

You probably could move Makalov and Stefan to the top or close to the top of Upper Mid. I wonder if Stefan should be High but I wouldn't be willing to argue it past "he's always strong."

[Dat Nick]

meh

I'm too lazy to check if enemies can actually crit Stefan

if not, I don't see why Volke>him. Thief utility isn't THAT good.

wtf at Z>Stefan though, and this is coming from a Z fanboy

Edited February 7, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

I'm too lazy to check if enemies can actually crit Stefan

They can; it's happened to me somewher in ch17 before.

[Lord Raven]

Zihark starts a bit weak, but I think his Earth support covers some durability issues just fine. He's got Muarim (+15 Avoid, +1 Def, B, 6 Chapters) and Brom (+1 Def/Atk, +15 Avoid A, 9 Chapters) (Totals +30 Avoid +2 Def +1 Atk) for support whereas Stefan has... nothing except Soren. Zihark's defense pretty much excels from Chapter 20 onwards as well. And there's also Adept which has a greater activation rate than Astra when Zihark hits like 14 Skill if he already hasn't.

Volke > Stefan is purely thief utility. The only way to obtain Physic staffs is through Bishops, and he's the only one who can steal them aside from Sothe. Which makes him pretty useful, just like Sothe.

Unlike Sothe though he's guaranteed to steal some more and can survive a hit on base level.

Stefan is above Makalov because Stefan's basically owning Makalov until Makalov mounts and gets a couple levels.

Muarim could go above Zihark. I'm waiting for someone to sway me to something though.

[Dat Nick]

Brom (+1 Def/Atk, +15 Avoid A, 9 Chapters

lolBrom

Stefan is above Makalov because Stefan's basically owning Makalov until Makalov mounts and gets a couple levels.

Um, Mak is always mounted.

Unless "mount" is just a really awful euthanism for "stop sucking"

[Lord Raven]

I'm not seeing what's so funny about Brom other than the fact that it's because it was my driver's ed teacher who called me Mildred off reading the name "Muhed" (pronounced Mah-Hahd, just don't ask) for the first time XD

And yeah it is.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

personally, assuming Brom gets played for the sole fact of favoring Z when he's near the bottom of low mid [below Callil. Ouch.] is one of the funniest things I've ever heard, ranking just below Bad Santa, and just above William Shatner's rendition of Rocketman.

[Lord Raven]

Cool story bro.

You make him sound bad. He's really not bad, but he's a bit too lacking to be "good." Hence, lower mid.

[Dat Nick]

He's really not bad, but he's a bit too lacking to be "good." Hence, lower mid.

and that's exactly why assuming he gets played for the sole purpose of supporting Z is almost as hilarious as bad santa

and more hilarious than Rocketman

fielding brom not because he's good but just so he can support Z equals favoritism for Z.

also, it's not just lower mid. It's on the lower half of low mid. That's pretty bad.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

Or you could switch around supports. Top Lower-mid Ilyana, his net total bonus is still +30 Avoid/+2 Def but he has no +1 Atk. :<<<<<<<<

We're already assuming mid-upper mids when there are probably 10 other people taking slots above them so ^_^;;

I'd say something else but I can't find the argument. I will try to, however, to make things interesting.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Or you could switch around supports. Top Lower-mid Ilyana, his net total bonus is still +30 Avoid/+2 Def but he has no +1 Atk. :<<<<<<<<

That doesn't fly either and you know it.

Lower tiered characters don't get played for no good reason other than to support upper tiered characters. It's favoritism, there's no possible way it qualifies as anything else.

We're already assuming mid-upper mids when there are probably 10 other people taking slots above them so

huge difference?

If we argue one character's usefulness, of COURSE they're going to be played. There's absolutely no other way to judge a character's usefulness, otherwise everybody not in top tier would be bottom, because the lower ranked characters would never enter play. But that's the ONLY slack we cut them. If we assume Rolf's affinity didn't suck and we were arguing Rolf's usefulness, sure, Oscar would get a Rolf support because Oscar will be played almost every time. But that's the ONLY adjustment made to gameplay, that said character is being played. Under no circumstances is Callil assumed to enter play just because Largo did.

Now, if we were, under other circumstances, to give Oscar Rolf support vs Kieran, that wouldn't fly because there's no friggin way you can assume Rolf is being played, he's the worst character in the game [No matter how much Reinfleche wants to bitch about it] and that's BS in favor of Oscar no matter how you try to sell it. That's almost as bad as trying to argue that Nino is entitled to Rebecca support in a Nino vs Erk argument. Or, even worse, that Rebecca is entitled to Dart support in a Rebecca vs Pent argument.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

That doesn't fly either and you know it.

I don't. Explain.

Lower tiered characters don't get played for no good reason other than to support upper tiered characters. It's favoritism, there's no possible way it qualifies as anything else.

Lower mid tier characters get played over upper tier characters for favoritism, but lower mid tier chars are still decent on their own right. They just have shortcomings that are more noticeable.

huge difference?

Yeah that means Stefan isn't getting that much play over Zihark and everyone else above him right now compared to the others. Therefore using him pretty much assumes you to use overall lower tier characters. Same with Zihark, and anyone lower than high tier.

Under no circumstances is Callil assumed to enter play just because Largo did.

Nobody's assumed to have entered play except Zihark and potentially supporting partners.

Now, if we were, under other circumstances, to give Oscar Rolf support vs Kieran, that wouldn't fly because there's no friggin way you can assume Rolf is being played, he's the worst character in the game [No matter how much Reinfleche wants to bitch about it] and that's BS in favor of Oscar no matter how you try to sell it.

However, the tier difference between Oscar and Rolf is like 5. The tier difference between Ilyana and Zihark is 1. There's not a huge gap between the two, they're likely to be used together. Edited February 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Lower mid tier characters get played over upper tier characters for favoritism

....WHAT?!

Dude, get into the standup business.

but lower mid tier chars are still decent on their own right. They just have shortcomings that are more noticeable.

ok

and that's why they're not bottom/low tier

you're still beating around the bush and not at all justifying why Brom gets played just so Z gets a B support, just thought you wanted to know that

Yeah that means Stefan isn't getting that much play over Zihark and everyone else above him right now compared to the others.

...naturally? Lower tier equals not as good. Not as good equals not being played as often.

Get to the point, will you? All you're doing is spouting off bull on how low mid characters don't suck enough not to be played. Nobody's saying that. But they're not going to be played for the sole purpose of "Zihark wants a support."

Therefore using him pretty much assumes you to use overall lower tier characters.

...No, it doesn't. When Zihark's usefulness is being argued, Zihark being used is the ONLY differing factor taken into account.

Same with Zihark, and anyone lower than high tier.

No, not the same. Zihark is being played because his overall usefulness under normal circumstances IF he is played are being argued. Brom is being played to support Zihark, not because Brom's own usefulness is being argued. There's a collosal difference.

Nobody's assumed to have entered play except Zihark and potentially supporting partners.

Except they're not assumed to enter play because that's favoritism for Zihark. Could they enter play? Yes. Will they get it if they enter play? Yes. Are they assumed to enter play? Hell no.

The tier difference between Ilyana and Zihark is 1.

okay?

lower mid is still lower mid

on the lower half of lower mid is pretty crappy

There's not a huge gap between the two, they're likely to be used together.

You don't get it, do you?

If we argue Bastian's usefulness, Bastian will be played. Will Lucia? Um, no. Why? Lucia sucks. Who gives a rat's ass if she sucks comparably to Bastian? Lucia still sucks. So why are we assuming Bastian is being played if he sucks? Because that's the only way to argue his usefulness, to VERIFY that he sucks. Where does Lucia comes in to Bastian's usefulness? Not at all, and Lucia sucks, she doesn't come in to a playthrough where we assume Bastian is used. And this goes the other way around for when we try to argue Lucia's usefulness: Just replace "Bastian" with "Lucia" and "Lucia" with "Bastian".

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

People in FE6 debates use lower mid tierish units for support all the time ?_? Obviously they're not as good as higher tier support units but the fact is they're present and they're still somewhat likely to be used versus stuff that's complete trash. Supporting also benefits both parties, so fielding Zihark and Brom with support is slightly better than fielding two otherwise slightly better units with no support.

BB's correct that using one lower tier unit doesn't imply using all or even another lower tier unit.

Edited February 8, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

My main point was that you're more likely to use lower tier units if you're fielding one, because using a lower tier unit breaks the mould that... eh I'm too lazy to explain. I'm juggling this and the Ike/Stefan debate anyway.

and that's why they're not bottom/low tier

Because they're decent and don't suck. Everyone else is pretty much better, it doesn't make him any worse.

you're still beating around the bush and not at all justifying why Brom gets played just so Z gets a B support, just thought you wanted to know that

Because Brom benefits equally from it, and gets good boosts of his own. In fact, he can support Boyd and boost Boyd's defense/attack while he's at it.

...naturally? Lower tier equals not as good. Not as good equals not being played as often.

So you're implying we leave character choices down to probability. <_<

Get to the point, will you? All you're doing is spouting off bull on how low mid characters don't suck enough not to be played. Nobody's saying that. But they're not going to be played for the sole purpose of "Zihark wants a support."

If we get into arguing Zihark's Brom support, we get into arguing Brom's usefulness. Then another support's usefulness. Etc. Just because they're lower mid does not automatically mean they're not being played; just less often than others. And Zihark wants a support, Stefan wants a support. Stefan has to rely on somebody on the lower end of the mid tier for his own supports, whereas Zihark can use someone on the upper-lower mid tier or the mid-lower mid tier.

Note, "can use" not "relies on" considering he's got Muarim.

...No, it doesn't. When Zihark's usefulness is being argued, Zihark being used is the ONLY differing factor taken into account.

Then we eliminate supports as a factor altogether?

No, not the same. Zihark is being played because his overall usefulness under normal circumstances IF he is played are being argued. Brom is being played to support Zihark, not because Brom's own usefulness is being argued. There's a collosal difference.

Apparently that's not the case, anyways.

Colossal has two s's and 1 l.

Brom's usefulness under normal circumstances is decent; it's just lower than other's. He's Lower Mid simply due to relativity, because it's hard to find someone (other than Rolf) that totally sucks in FE9.

Except they're not assumed to enter play because that's favoritism for Zihark. Could they enter play? Yes. Will they get it if they enter play? Yes. Are they assumed to enter play? Hell no.

We can't assume anyone enters play except Zihark/Stefan and Ike.

on the lower half of lower mid is pretty crappy

It's not "crappy" it's "decent." It's lower mid because it's decent. Edited February 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

People in FE6 debates use lower mid tierish units for support all the time ?_? Obviously they're not as good as higher tier support units but the fact is they're present and they're still somewhat likely to be used versus stuff that's complete trash. Supporting also benefits both parties, so fielding Zihark and Brom with support is slightly better than fielding two otherwise slightly better units with no support.

BB's correct that using one lower tier unit doesn't imply using all or even another lower tier unit.

...Er, don't these two statements contradict each other? I don't get it, are you with me or against me?

My main point was that you're more likely to use lower tier units if you're fielding one, because using a lower tier unit breaks the mould that

Except it doesn't. The only thing arguing Zihark's usefulness does is assume that Zihark is played.

Because they're decent and don't suck. Everyone else is pretty much better, it doesn't make him any worse.

You know what else it's not doing? It's not giving Brom a gaurentee to be played. It's hurting his chances, in fact.

So you're implying we leave character choices down to probability.

yes

...Think for a second. Which character is a ranked player more likely to use, Titania or Rolf? We've been over this countless times before. It's not rocket science. Better units get played more often no matter how much you disagree with the idea.

Because Brom benefits equally from it, and gets good boosts of his own.

okay

Brom still isn't good since his issue is AS and not str/def, it's still favoring Zihark since you're giving a team slot to an inferior unit just to give Zihark a boost, and Brom still doesn't get to be played just for supporting Zihark.

btw, Boyd's taken already. He already has Ti and Mist. Mist gives him the exact same boosts, Mist needs the atk/def boost more, and it's faster than Brom.

we get into arguing Brom's usefulness.

No, for this particular argument, it's Zihark and nothing else. You know the only thing we do for Brom? We ask, "Is he getting played often, and does Brom want any other supports?" Does Brom want other supports? Not really. Is he getting played often? Well, let's look at his position. Lower half of lower mid? Yeaaahhh...that's not good. He's not getting that support too often. Okay, back to Zihark.

lower mid does not automatically mean they're not being played

i'm not saying that they'll never be played

YOU'RE the one assuming that Zihark's always getting a Brom or Ilyana support. Even assuming this is happening more often than not is ridiculous. Why? Look where they're placed. Ever occur to you they're that low for a reason?

Stefan has to rely on somebody on the lower end of the mid tier for his own supports, whereas Zihark can use someone on the upper-lower mid tier or the mid-lower mid tier.

And Soren is a tier up on Brom and Ilyana, meaning his situation of getting a support is better than Z's.

Then we eliminate supports as a factor altogether?

No, but we don't assume poor characters get a support just because a character better than them needs it.

Brom's usefulness under normal circumstances is decent; it's just lower than other's.

and that's friggin why he's not getting the support that often, and goddess knows he's not guaranteed it [facepalm]

We can't assume anyone enters play except Zihark/Stefan and Ike.

....

Did you just pwn your entire argument?

Because I think you just pwned your entire argument.

[Reikken]

People in FE6 debates use lower mid tierish units for support all the time

wat?

Sounds more like the opposite of what happens. Gaps between units/tiers are bigger in FE6 than in other games. Using a low tier unit is much worse in FE6 than in most others games.

[Lord Raven]

....

Did you just pwn your entire argument?

Because I think you just pwned your entire argument.

Show me how.

Okay I'll go your logic and do Zihark/Muarim. C19 is past the halfway point between Zihark/Stefan, and I'll assume that Zihark is like 20/3 here and Stefan is 20/9

.Zihark, 36 HP/16 Str/21 Skl/23 Spd/13 Def/4 Res/11 Lck

Stefan, 39 HP/19.5 Str/27 Skl/26 Spd/12 Def/9 Res/5 Lck

Zihark has Muarim B, +1 Def/+15 Avoid. So, 46 + 11 + 15 = 72 avoid, 14 Def, 5 Res

Stefan has Soren C, +2 Avoid +8 Hit. 52+7 = 59 Avoid, 12 Def.

So, +2 Def vs +3 Str/HP and +4 Res.

With Iron Blades, 25 Atk x2 towards Wyverns vs 28 Atk x2 towards Wyverns. Zihark does 14 damage and Stefan does 20 damage. Stefan does two round. However..

Wyverns have probably Steel Lances, so 70 hit + 24 from Skill = 94 hit, +15 WTA. 109 hit, so against Zihark there's 37 Hit and against Stefan there's 50% hit. Zihark wins avoid. They have 26 attack and do 13 damage per hit on Zihark and 15 per hit on Stefan. Both die in three but Zihark avoids more of those hits.

The highest AS of enemies is a potential 18 spd Swordmaster. :| I just covered second highest defense, and you can expect Zihark to evade just as much if not more than that while taking less damage and still two rounding, if not one rounding. I can't think of much of an instance where Stefan is one rounding more often than Zihark.

Zihark has a 160% avoid growth essentially whereas Stefan has 135%. Zihark has 4 less Res, etc. With Ilyana/Brom support that should be factored in but not majorly according to your logic, Zihark is on equal grounds with Stefan and considering his growth, Zihark will probably push ahead being a powerfully competent endgame char, moreso than Stefan.[/i]

And I don't quite see how Stefan is completely destroying Zihark from Chapter 15 onwards. He's doing better, but Zihark closes the gap pretty quickly until they're about even in C19, where it basically becomes an offense vs defense war.

B: He's far off from needing it. Stefan's avo is actually in the range of medium-high. Luck is his problem.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Show me how.

"Oh Zihark can get Brom/Ilyana support easy lol"

You even said once, and I quote, no editing done, i SWEAR:

Nobody's assumed to have entered play except Zihark and potentially supporting partners.

case closed

but not majorly according to your logic

...Understatement much?

btw, you totally forgot the part where Stefan rapes Zihark with a ten foot sword until Z promotes

and no, Z's not shooting up ten levels in four chapters, before you try to argue that

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

and no, Z's not shooting up ten levels in four chapters, before you try to argue that

I never ever said that. L10 at C11, which gives him more than enough time to get to L20/3 or 20/4 by C19. This is like eight chapters after Stefan joins, whereas Zihark basically wins for the next 11 chapters.

You even said once, and I quote, no editing done, i SWEAR:

Then you can't even assume Stefan support which gives him a bit of evasion that he needs.

[Dat Nick]

I never ever said that.

I know you didn't.

I was saying BEFORE you tried to argue that.

which gives him more than enough time to get to L20/3 or 20/4 by C19.

It's not just Z's levels. Stefan's getting EXP too. Obviously a lvl 10 stefan will>20/1 Zihark

Then you can't even assume Stefan support which gives him a bit of evasion that he needs.

A: I'm not, but it's still more likely than a Brom support

B: He's far off from needing it. Stefan's avo is actually in the range of medium-high. Luck is his problem.

[Lord Raven]

I was saying BEFORE you tried to argue that.

But I quite clearly never even tried to imply that.

It's not just Z's levels. Stefan's getting EXP too. Obviously a lvl 10 stefan will>20/1 Zihark

Okay I'll go your logic and do Zihark/Muarim. C19 is past the halfway point between Zihark/Stefan, and I'll assume that Zihark is like 20/3 here and Stefan is 20/9.

Zihark, 36 HP/16 Str/21 Skl/23 Spd/13 Def/4 Res/11 Lck

Stefan, 39 HP/19.5 Str/27 Skl/26 Spd/12 Def/9 Res/5 Lck

Zihark has Muarim B, +1 Def/+15 Avoid. So, 46 + 11 + 15 = 72 avoid, 14 Def, 5 Res

Stefan has Soren C, +2 Avoid +8 Hit. 52+7 = 59 Avoid, 12 Def.

So, +2 Def vs +3 Str/HP and +4 Res.

With Iron Blades, 25 Atk x2 towards Wyverns vs 28 Atk x2 towards Wyverns. Zihark does 14 damage and Stefan does 20 damage. Stefan does one round. However..

Wyverns have probably Steel Lances, so 70 hit + 24 from Skill = 94 hit, +15 WTA. 109 hit, so against Zihark there's 37 Hit and against Stefan there's 50% hit. Zihark wins avoid. They have 26 attack and do 13 damage per hit on Zihark and 15 per hit on Stefan. Both die in three but Zihark avoids more of those hits.

The highest AS of enemies is a potential 18 spd Swordmaster. :| I just covered second highest defense, and you can expect Zihark to evade just as much if not more than that while taking less damage and still two rounding, if not one rounding. I can't think of much of an instance where Zihark is one rounding.

Zihark has a 160% avoid growth essentially whereas Stefan has 135%. Zihark has 4 less Res, etc. With Ilyana/Brom support that should be factored in but not majorly according to your logic, Zihark is on equal grounds with Stefan and considering his growth, Zihark will probably push ahead being a powerfully competent endgame char, moreso than Stefan.

And I don't quite see how Stefan is completely destroying Zihark from Chapter 15 onwards. He's doing better, but Zihark closes the gap pretty quickly until they're about even in C19, where it basically becomes an offense vs defense war.

B: He's far off from needing it. Stefan's avo is actually in the range of medium-high. Luck is his problem.

As shown by our debate Stefan would eat hit rates in the 50s or 60s if not for Soren support. Edited February 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Tino]

As shown by our debate Stefan would eat hit rates in the 50s or 60s if not for Soren support.

And Soren isn't the greatest unit either, so Stefan is even very likely to have no supports at all.