FE9 Tier List!!!

[Dat Nick]

As shown by our debate Stefan would eat hit rates in the 50s or 60s if not for Soren support.

...Your point being? 50/60's isn't bad. It's far from reliable. But it's not bad. At all.

C19 is past the halfway point between Zihark/Stefan, and I'll assume that Zihark is like 20/3 here and Stefan is 20/9.

wtf

Stefan getting ONE level in SEVEN chapters, when he's entitled to BEXP too [everybody getting played is getting it, even Ti is getting it, the only time she might NOT is when your other characters really need that extra wad of EXP]? uh, no. Three. Very possibly four.

And Soren isn't the greatest unit either, so Stefan is even very likely to have no supports at all.

But Soren's a tier up on Brom.

Meaning Soren's getting played more often than Brom, meaning a Soren/Stefan support has significantly better odds of happening

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

...Er, don't these two statements contradict each other? I don't get it, are you with me or against me?

I'm saying that you can assume that a lower tier unit is played but that you can't assume that he's played just because another lower tier unit is played (i.e. the two are independent). I don't have to be all with you or against you.

You can't assume that the average team is "top 10 people on tier list plus Zihark/other unit in question."

wat?

Sounds more like the opposite of what happens. Gaps between units/tiers are bigger in FE6 than in other games. Using a low tier unit is much worse in FE6 than in most others games.

I was referring more to people using Oujay, Lot, etc. as somewhat reasonable support partners. No one's going to argue for Wendy or Sophia obviously but as long as you're somewhat usable, you have a reasonable chance of being fielded.

[Dat Nick]

I was referring more to people using Oujay

whut?

orange juice's affinity and support options suck

awful example/10

[Tino]

But Soren's a tier up on Brom.

Meaning Soren's getting played more often than Brom, meaning a Soren/Stefan support has significantly better odds of happening

As far as I'm concerned, Brom and Soren are rather close to eachother. Fuck, I can easily see Brom being better than Soren due to huge durability and decent offense with the Knight Ward.

[Dat Nick]

you realize Brom's AS is mediocre even WITH the KW, right

[Tino]

His AS isn't the highest in the world, no, but neither is Soren's. His lollable STR prevents him from doubling very frequently, and his fail earlygame means he'll get underleveled a bit as well, so that makes him even worse. Brom can at least double a good amount of things with the KW and he has actual durability, something Soren lacks completely.

[Dat Nick]

His lollable STR prevents him from doubling very frequently

Thank goddess for the light wt of wind magic, eh?

but neither is Soren's.

Soren's is certiantly higher than Brom's.

Brom can at least double a good amount of things with the KW

um...Soren STARTS with the same AS as Brom, you know that, right? If Brom's doubling a good amount of things Soren must be doubling everything.

Realistically, when Brom joins, we're looking at about a 13 or 14 Soren here. That's about...12-13 AS for Soren. Oh, and he can't get the KW because it doesn't exist yet, so that's not helping Brommy's AS situation for another chapter, which means Soren's probably going to be, say, lvl 15 before the KW even gets placed in Brom's inventory.

15 Soren has roughly 14 AS. It takes Brom, even with the KW, um, a damn long time to catch up to that. And Soren's still going to gain levels, so Brom's going to have a lot of fun with ever matching Soren in speed.

Soren can also assist in keeping other units alive, somewhat cancelling out Brom's durability advantage.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Tino]

Thank goddess for the light wt of wind magic, eh?

He even loses AS from a simple Wind tome until he gains a single point of STR, which he has only a 38% of reaching on level 20/0. Massive fail. And that 2 MT tome isn't going to have him kill much, if anything at all.

Soren's is certiantly higher than Brom's.

20/1 Soren: 3 STR, 18 SPD

20/1 Brom: 15 SPD, 18 STR

Elthunder Soren has 15 SPD . Steel Lance Brom has 15 SPD. Uh oh. 15 = 15, unless I'm horribly mistaken, so Soren's AS isn't higher than Brom's.

Realistically, when Brom joins, we're looking at about a 13 or 14 Soren here. That's about...12-13 AS for Soren. Oh, and he can't get the KW because it doesn't exist yet, so that's not helping Brommy's AS situation for another chapter, which means Soren's probably going to be, say, lvl 15 before the KW even gets placed in Brom's inventory.

Do you honestly expect Soren to gain 13 levels in 7 chapters, in most of which he sucks anyway? No, we're more looking at 9/0 Soren here, who has 10 AS (Wind), against an 8/0 Brom with 7 AS. If Soren uses Fire or Thunder, that becomes 8 vs. 7. So Soren is doubling slightly more (though 8 AS isn't doubling significantly more than 7 AS), while Brom has an ATK lead and far more durability. Soren is thus far worse.

Soren can also assist in keeping other units alive, somewhat cancelling out Brom's durability advantage.

By the time Soren is able to heal with simply Heal staves, healing isn't as necessary anymore and is actually nearing redundancy, so that's not much of a compensation, really.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Tino

[Reikken]

I was referring more to people using Oujay, Lot, etc. as somewhat reasonable support partners.

Those are upper mid, not lower.

And I, at least, generally consider them as very iffy.

[Dat Nick]

At least Lot/Dieck is more credible than Oujay and anybody else.

Because, you know, Oujay's support options suck.

[Reikken]

That's usually irrelevant.

If we're talking about how good Bors is, and proposing OJ as a support partner for Bors, it doesn't matter that OJ's support options suck (Actually, it's helpful for Bors).

[Lord Raven]

...Your point being? 50/60's isn't bad. It's far from reliable. But it's not bad. At all.

You're the one telling me I shouldn't be BSing around. The 50/60s doesn't take true hit into account, either, so it's higher than it should be.

Stefan getting ONE level in SEVEN chapters, when he's entitled to BEXP too [everybody getting played is getting it, even Ti is getting it, the only time she might NOT is when your other characters really need that extra wad of EXP]? uh, no. Three. Very possibly four.

4 + (15 - 28) + 15 = 6 EXP per kill.

This is L20/8 vs L15, of course the EXP per kill is going to increase by like 2 per level but it requires he get like 13 or 14 kills per chapter which is extreme favoritism towards him over anyone else. These chapters have enemies in the 20s so, as a result, long-term use of him = depriving the rest of your team of EXP that could've been used on other chars, because they're definitely getting a lot more out of 200 BEXP than Stefan is. I'm not saying he steals it, he's just less entitled to much of it.

Some kills? Alright. Half the enemies? Not cool. One kill a turn, then there's the fact that unless Stefan goes by himself (every other hit hits him and does like 20% worth of damage, so feel free to refute this), enemy AI will go towards weaker units and stuff because they won't want to get killed.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

okay

he's still getting more than one level in seven chapters

[Lord Raven]

Holy fucking shit, you really suck at refuting points.

[Dat Nick]

Just like you suck at proving them.

So far, your only argument that proves Stefan is getting ONE level in SEVEN chapters is "he's not getting a lot of EXP lol". No shit he's not. But there's absolutly no way in hell his EXP gain sucks so bad that he gets one level in seven chapters. Even if he only gets five kills a chapter and no BEXP, that still pans out to 240 EXP total for him.

I repeat.

Seven. Chapters. Most of the later ones which have promoted enemies.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

Just like you suck at proving them.

At least I'm using facts. There's a huge difference here.

So far, your only argument that proves Stefan is getting ONE level in SEVEN chapters is "he's not getting a lot of EXP lol". No shit he's not. But there's absolutly no way in hell his EXP gain sucks so bad that he gets one level in seven chapters.

I repeat.

C15, he's recruited near the end of the chapter.

C16, the enemy units are a bit spread out and he still needs 8-10 kills in this chapter to get to your magic 40 EXP. The fact that the enemy units are spread out means that he's not getting much of them, kinda like your other units who are getting more EXP out of it.

C17-1, he starts to get a bit more EXP. Enemy units are L16-17 by now, and he needs to be killing anywhere from 8-10 to get 40 EXP. I'm going to go out on a whim and guess that 8-10 makes up about a thirds-a fourths of the enemies, and that's still a bit too much especially considering he's not going to be eating counters anyway.

C17-2 has swamp early on, or a rather narrow path. It's going to be a bit hard to go on, and Iron Blades two round the Wyvern anyway. He still needs 8-10 kills for the magic 40 EXP.

C17-3 is a swampy chapter (well, hindrance for everyone once again) he's still not going to be eating many counters because of his strength/AS. He needs like 6-8 kills for 40 EXP, which is much more achievable now than it used to be.

C17-4 has a bunch of enemies and he can probably take the Meteor better than most. Enemies will have higher hit here, so he'll have a tough time evading and take quite a bit of damage from it; Zihark's probably getting 20/1 here now too which puts his defense from a slight lead -> an actual point + like 10 evasion.

C18 has narrow corridors and everyone is killing just as well as him while getting ~10-15 more EXP per kill.

So in order to get 3 levels in 7 chapters he needs to be getting 40 EXP per chapter, and his kill output is probably 6-10 EXP anyway. Considering many kills happen on counter attacks of which he is getting little due to high Str, he's not getting many levels. This can pan out to 150 or 160 EXP in the 7 chapters, not just 100. But that still equates to a level-up, and even with more EXP his only actual lead is Strength. Zihark wins evade by at least 10 and defense by 2, and it's subject to increase.

7 chapters isn't even the midpoint, on second thought, so Zihark is going to have better defense for longer.

He doesn't even need EXP to be decent at this moment in time. That's an advantage, but he also doesn't do much with the EXP he's given; everyone else gains at least 2-3 as much from killing enemies and twice as much from BEXP, and their overall growth is probably better than his growth for one level because they go from taking hits decently -> better, having decent offense -> better, faster whereas Stefan remains relatively stagnant for a while.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Stefan's still getting BEXP even if he's not taking as much of your other units.

Meaning even if he's only getting BEXP worth 10 EXP for him, that 6-8 kills needed just became 4-6 kills needed.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

What use is 10 BEXP? You may as well use it to get 15-20 EXP for another guy instead of Stefan getting 10, and even then it's pretty useless to be giving everyone like 10 EXP per chapter.

[Dat Nick]

What use is 10 BEXP?

I just told you what use it is. That only pans out to 20 BEXP for 10 EXP for him. And Stefan's certiantly entitled to more than JUST that, he's a team members. Team members get BEXP.

useless to be giving everyone like 10 EXP per chapter.

...I hope you realize everybody is getting significantly more than that.

By the time you're done with C17, that's 850 BEXP earned. You're really telling me Stefan can't have 20 than that? Are you REALLY?

[Lord Raven]

So really just one instance of 20 BEXP = that lessens his kill load in 7 chapters by 3 or 4. <_<

[Dat Nick]

...Try by 1-2 each chapter. Stefan gets BEXP every chapter. Just like Ti, Oscar, Boyd, Mist, Muarim, Zihark, and whoever the hell else is on the team is [obvious exceptions being Ike and Volke if they're capped out]

And he's going to get more than that anyway, so that was just me being nice.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[dondon151]

Those are upper mid, not lower.

And I, at least, generally consider them as very iffy.

Oops, looks like I need to recheck the FE6 tier list. I honestly thought those weren't good enough to be upper mid, maybe lower mid, but w/e

[Lord Raven]

With one level of BEXP he's getting you can get two on another unit, or one on two other units. Why would you possibly insist on giving him more when he's going from almost one rounding -> almost one rounding whereas other units are potentially approaching/achieving promotion with it?

And you're really giving everyone BEXP every chapter? Even if they go from combat win -> combat win with it. You're even the one that argues that chars who need it more will receive it, and Stefan won't need it more therefore he won't receive it. Mekkah argues it better though, and applies it to both sides; even then, his output is practically identical throughout whereas other units pretty much get their promotions, or even a Master Seal-able promotion, through it. Or go up a level from 20/1 or etc.. which is when Stefan starts to lose some of his relative potential anyway.

[Dat Nick]

With one level of BEXP he's getting you can get two on another unit,

And that's why he's not getting AS MUCH BEXP as unpromoted units. But he's still getting BEXP. And he only need a small chunk of it every chapter to get to level 10 before C19.

Why would you possibly insist on giving him more

More than other people? No. More than 20 per chapter? Very realistic.

almost one rounding whereas other units are potentially approaching/achieving promotion with it?

Then they get to achieve promotion

and Stefan takes a small portion of BEXP.

And you're really giving everyone BEXP every chapter?

Sure.

higher level get less, but policy still applies

and Stefan won't need it more therefore he won't receive it.

No, he won't need it more, therefore he doesn't receive as MUCH. He's still getting BEXP.

Twenty BEXP. TWENTY. Is it really that much of a deal if that's all Stefan's taking? Is it REALLY? If anything that's being unfair to him because there's much more to go around than that.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

Then they get to achieve promotion

100 EXP to them -> 140ish BEXP -> massive improvment due to promotion.

Same to others.

Then getting people to L20 to maximize potential -> promote with Master seal, and etc.

After C17 there's a bit of a surplus but Stefan is probably not getting more than 40 (anywhere from requiring 80 BEXP because that's around 10% and he's not even improving that much per level up).

No, he won't need it more, therefore he doesn't receive as MUCH. He's still getting BEXP.

He won't need it at that point period, because his offense goes from decent to still decent and his defense goes from shaky to shaky. From a level from anything, really, considering his strength is the only thing that has a significant impact via level up or not.

From 8 -> 16 or 17 his evade increases by +12. From 1 -> 13 Zihark's evade increases by something like +18 or 19 from an already +10 due to his luck and the fact that he has more Speedt o gain.

Twenty BEXP. TWENTY. Is it really that much of a deal if that's all Stefan's taking? Is it REALLY? If anything that's being unfair to him because there's much more to go around than that.

Per chapter? It takes him like 40 BEXP to get 20 EXP. For everyone else 40 BEXP ends up being 30 EXP, or 20 EXP in Titania's case. Add to how you get roughly 300-400 per chapter without that surplus in C17 and he's basically taking away 10-15% of the amount of BEXP you've got for someone that's not improving much.

It's not even "unfair" moreso than "impractical."

Edited February 9, 2009 by Nathan Graves