FE5 Tier List

[grandjackal]

Hell, I could actually see Selphina out of low. Why? Well, simple really. She's got leads on just about every other archer. At equal levels, Tanya's only win is speed. Selphina can easily get a way to get the speed sh needs (will get to it in a bit), and otherwise wings growths everywhere outside of strength (but importantly, build). I'm pretty damn sure she's pulling weapon rank on their ass too.

So what seperates her from all the other archers? Starting level! Only two levels and bam, we got this. Hell, let's just slap a seal on her level 12.

Selphina, 12/1

24 HP, 8 Str, 4.4 Mag, 11.6 Skill, 13.4 Speed, 8.6 Def, 6.4 Build, 9 Move, Canto, support form Leaf and Glade, giving a leadership star AND support bonuses for her subordinates with a full 10 for hubby Glade, AND instant access to the Brave Bow.

Not the shiniest unit, but you get quite a bit with little effort.

[Renall]

Doesn't she give Glade a double bonus? Of course, that only really helps if it makes him any better, and as much as I like Glade he isn't terribly great statistically.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

A better question would be whether it effects Bow Knights as well. If so, Robert > Alva and Kein is even more justified.

If mounted: Melee EXP x 1

If unmounted: Melee EXP x 1.5

@Renall: Lifis has 6 BLD as his base.

So basically, don't mount Robert or Selfina unless you need to and they gain more exp that way. I wonder if that can salvage either of them.

And it's academic as his BLD should rise at least 2 points. On averages it may or may not, but if it does it's available and if it doesn't you can capture the Swordmaster with Brighton I think. I'm only noting it because the Killer Sword is particularly common during those chapters; there's two and then Shiva brings another in ch7. Fergus pretty much has a god-given right to one of them since Karin is forced around to support him, but giving the other one to Machua seems fair (Brighton doesn't need it, Lifis and Lara are busy, Leaf still has his Light Sword, Fergus is using one + the Brave and Fire). There's a chance she'll Ambush-crit and kill someone off without taking damage that way.

Far too risky.

[grandjackal]

Doesn't she give Glade a double bonus? Of course, that only really helps if it makes him any better, and as much as I like Glade he isn't terribly great statistically.

Whoop, yes she does! Bodes well for him, and even more for her subordinates. Glitch in the brain, thought she only gave them 5. Basically, we're padding Robert, Kein and Alba, 3 units with a 10 crit padding. On top of it, Glade and Leaf give her a holy crap 30 crit. Woops, only 20. Why is Glade so stingy with the bonuses, when she gives him a flat out 20?

What's her PCR?

In fact, Glade also gives a 10 crit bonus to her subordinates along with ANOTHER leadership star...

Edited August 13, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Renall]

Far too risky.

Dalshien with the Brave Axe then? Weaken the guy with Eyvel before opening the door? There's ways to lessen the risk, and I think a Killer is worth it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Doesn't she give Glade a double bonus? Of course, that only really helps if it makes him any better, and as much as I like Glade he isn't terribly great statistically.

Whoop, yes she does! Bodes well for him, and even more for her subordinates. Glitch in the brain, thought she only gave them 5. Basically, we're padding Robert, Kein and Alba, 3 units with a 10 crit padding. On top of it, Glade and Leaf give her a holy crap 30 crit. Woops, only 20. Why is Glade so stingy with the bonuses, when she gives him a flat out 20?

What's her PCR?

In fact, Glade also gives a 10 crit bonus to her subordinates along with ANOTHER leadership star...

1.

Random note: Mounted units gain a very slight EXP boost when dismounted. Only tested Fergus vs Kempf (10 EXP boost when dismounted) and Kein vs a random mage (7 EXP boost).

Far too risky.

Dalshien with the Brave Axe then? Weaken the guy with Eyvel before opening the door? There's ways to lessen the risk, and I think a Killer is worth it.

Less risky yes. Still not worth it however.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

1.

Random note: Mounted units gain a very slight EXP boost. Only tested Fergus vs Kempf (10 EXP boost when dismounted) and Kein vs a random mage (7 EXP boost).

Ok, might hamper her offense a bit.

Anyways...Leaf has two stars, Glade, Selphina and Fin have one which makes it 5. Basically, it's like having Reinhart leadership.

I'm not sure how powerful leadership is, but how effective would you say this is? I recall this basically fluxuating with enemy leadership, but unless the enemy general is packing leadership up the ass, this could be pretty helpful some maps ;;>>

[Renall]

Well I dunno. "Too risky" to me is trying to capture Galzus (not that anyone will have any chance of this with his 18 BLD or anything). The arena Swordmaster wasn't THAT badass when I fought him.

Also having just replayed through those chapters, man, Asvel really has offense issues without Grafcalibur.

EDIT: Selfina doesn't have a leadership star. She's just an okay supporter.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Renall

[grandjackal]

She doesn't? *double checks* Whoops, my bad.

Could have sworn she had one...

Either way, I couldn't see her below someone like Misha or Conomore, or Tanya (Tanya's only lead at equal levels is speed, and loses generally everything else). Even Marty.

Any higher than that though, and it gets a tad touchy.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Salad Utensil]

Whoop, yes she does! Bodes well for him, and even more for her subordinates. Glitch in the brain, thought she only gave them 5. Basically, we're padding Robert, Kein and Alba, 3 units with a 10 crit padding. On top of it, Glade and Leaf give her a holy crap 30 crit. Woops, only 20. Why is Glade so stingy with the bonuses, when she gives him a flat out 20?

What's her PCR?

In fact, Glade also gives a 10 crit bonus to her subordinates along with ANOTHER leadership star...

Glade, Selphina, Kein, and Alba all have 1PCC and Robert has 3PCC

http://grandbell.net/index.php/fe5countercrits

How are people even getting the killer sword from Shiva in 2x anyways? It seems far too risky. If you miss (lol fortress bonus) shiva has a 100% chance of criticalling on the his counter with the 12 speed.

[Renall]

He has a 0% chance of killing Eyvel.

EDIT: To elaborate for the uninitiated: Eyvel is invincible before then. She also has 1 more BLD than Shiva. He is guaranteed to miss her if his attack would kill her. So she can eventually capture him. Also he has no 2-range and doesn't move so he can get Hand Axed or Pugi'd, although that risks killing him.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Renall

[Salad Utensil]

He has a 0% chance of killing Eyvel.

EDIT: To elaborate for the uninitiated: Eyvel is invincible before then. She also has 1 more BLD than Shiva. He is guaranteed to miss her if his attack would kill her. So she can eventually capture him. Also he has no 2-range and doesn't move so he can get Hand Axed or Pugi'd, although that risks killing him.

right I forgot. But isn't wasting like 5 extra turns to capture shiva bad for effenciency. He has 50 evade-10 from eyval's leaf support and 14 defense and eyval only has like 80 hit when capturing with iron blade

[grandjackal]

Thank you, Brighton.

So basically her and Glade give Robert 60 crit ;;>> Kinda hard to give a damn about the weapon you use, when >60% of the time you're smacking a bitch with a crit. Could help circumvent his bad starting weapon level.

Anyways, Ninji brought up a point, and I agree. Robert should rise above the pseudo Kain and Abel. Robert doesn't need the Elite sword, doesn't take counters so he's quite a bit safer to train, and his PCC certainly helps. Each point of skill essentially gives him 3 more crit, so you could argue we get more out of Robert anyways.

[Renall]

Random thought: Brighton over Nanna to top of High? Nanna's staff rank is pretty sad, and she has to do so much work to get it up there. Earth Sword is nifty but she's still exceedingly weak and fragile. Charisma's nice but Delmud certainly isn't helped much by it on this list. By contrast, Brighton will have a decent Sword rank since he starts okay and has the Manster chapters to fight dismounted. Then he's got Wrath, a horse, and axes.

[Salad Utensil]

Random thought: Brighton over Nanna to top of High? Nanna's staff rank is pretty sad, and she has to do so much work to get it up there. Earth Sword is nifty but she's still exceedingly weak and fragile. Charisma's nice but Delmud certainly isn't helped much by it on this list. By contrast, Brighton will have a decent Sword rank since he starts okay and has the Manster chapters to fight dismounted. Then he's got Wrath, a horse, and axes.

I don't think Brighton will ever exceed D in swords even in the manster chapters since he has bad player phase and kills in one hit/doesn't double on enemy phase. I had trouble getting machua to C swords. Though I agree Brighton>Nanna since i'm biased, but it depend on if Wrath>Charisma which helps every PC. Nanna also has a horse too. but Earth sword helps her durability if she doesn't get doubled so she's not as fragile as you make her out to be. I don't thinks it's unlikely Nanna will reach C staves by endgame which is enough for restore and physics when status staves become commonplace.

[Rodykitty]

I did "notice" archers gaining extra EXP, though subconsciously without a thought about it. Good to hear that they have at least some consolation for a crappy enemy phase.

[grandjackal]

Archers always interested me. I always liked having one around every time.

Which brings me to Ronan. Yeah, he's a failboat. Basically though, equal levels? He's Selphina without a mount, but magic resistance and actual build (winning by 2, pretty much the same speed). He's at least got movement stars up the ass and Continue...Though she has a mount, canto and Duel, which could further help her offense once her speed gets to goodness.

...OK, Ronan's still a failboat. But it reminded me that Selphina has Duel. Wouldn't this uhh...help her? ;;>>

[Salad Utensil]

Archers always interested me. I always liked having one around every time.

Which brings me to Ronan. Yeah, he's a failboat. Basically though, equal levels? He's Selphina without a mount, but magic resistance and actual build (winning by 2, pretty much the same speed). He's at least got movement stars up the ass and Continue...Though she has a mount, canto and Duel, which could further help her offense once her speed gets to goodness.

...OK, Ronan's still a failboat. But it reminded me that Selphina has Duel. Wouldn't this uhh...help her? ;;>>

I wish Ronan was actually a mage or we could reclass characters in this game 55% magic growth FTW

Random note:

Dalshien < Xavier?

by the time Dalshien promotes (around the time Xavier appears) he has:

38HP

19 strenth

2 res

14skill

8 spd

18 def

19bld

4 luck

Thats assuming he is even going to be used, more on this later

Xavier Has

38 HP

13 Strengh (allievated by wrath)

3 res

9 skill (better weapon levels let him use more accurate weapons)

6 spd (charge lets him double 5 spd enemies)

17 def

3 luck

15bld

From Mekkah's character guide:

When you go outside, problems start arising. Competition for axes pops up everywhere: first Brighton mounts himself and asks why Dalshien is keeping those pretty axes all for himself, then Hicks joins the party and wonders the same thing. And before long Othin and Halvan return. And then Marty, but I guess we don't care much about him...Dagda is viable though. And Dalshien certainly needs special axes to stand out, because his AS is just terrible. Fails to double 0 AS enemies until 13/0 on average, though Sety scroll can amend it a bit. After he promotes, he can double joke enemies with that 8 AS of his (more like 9-10 with Sety scroll), so I _suppose_ he does alright there. But before that +2 bonus, he has heavy offense troubles.

And movement issues too. From here out, you'll want to field people with 6-8 movement indoors, and ones with 7-9 outdoors, which leaves Dalshien hanging with his 5 movement.

Thankfully, his amazing durability keeps him from being a complete failure. His def isn't really going to improve much actually...it happens to be his second-lowest growth, behind mag. But that's okay, his base is awesome. But for some reason, this game likes to throw Hammers on a lot of random enemies...and Dalshien is literally the only unit who gets hit super effective by these. This is the only game where carrying an armor around hurts this much...come on, 24 might Hammers? Go away. Magic remaining common hurts him quite a bit too, also because magic users will always outrange him, so he never gets to go up at them and KO them before they can touch him.

If you want to use Dalshien seriously (like, after you're being given the option not to bring him along), I'd recommend Wrath on him. The Brave Axe doesn't last forever, plus Halvan and some others are really good at using that. Wrath allows him to just counterkill on enemy phase, pretty much the best way to put his durability to good use. Another way to help his offense is Sety scroll, but he's going to need tons of level-ups with it. Wrath is a hefty resource use alone - it's difficult to justify that AND that amazing movement ring. You can't really carry Dalshien around with a mount without cutting their move in half either, and at some point his build will max out and he cannot even be carried anymore.

Doubling

Dalshien basically requires Brave axe to double until promotion, but EVERYONE who uses at least D axes wants it. Xavier can double about the same amount as Dalshien, but he has charge so he wins here. Also he has the not so wanted Brave bow so Xavier has very little good competition for it.

2 Range

Xavier can use Brave bow b/c only he and selphina can use it (BTW Selphina fails so...). Brave bow is awesome with 95 hit and 14 might and 20 crit. Dalshien is stuck using hand axes with 45 hit. No one has reliable accuracy with hand axes. About Master Axes Dalshien doesn't double until after promotion so it isn't unheard of him not reaching A axes by the time Xavier joins.

1 Range

BTW Xavier has C swords so you can give him king sword too if you are inclined to. He can also use any axe and any bow that you can spare for him. Dalshien is stuck using much sought after axes and crappy iron sword and bows.

Offensive

Wrath>no wrath, Charge is actually useful for Xavier b/c of his 6 spd and good durability so it doesnt hurt him. Also access to better weapons.

Defensively:

Dalshien actually is better defensively, but barely. Xavier has a leadership star and the unreliable great shield to negate dalshiens one point win in defense and like 5 more avo.

Availibility:

Now this has to most weight in terms of positions...however one can argue that Dalshien's lead is rather meaningless. My burden of proof is to show after the manster chapters Dalshien is not very useful and even gives negative utility.

It is no denying during chapters 4-5 Dalshien is great if given the brave axe. Your only fighter that can take at least 4 physical hits w/o dying. However he has terrible hit and accuracy here as well so doesn't kill reliably like fergus if there was a tier list just for those chapters it would be like:

Eyvel

Lifis

Lara

Nanna

Fergus

Dalshien

Brighton

Leaf

Machua

Asvel

Karin

He is one of the best fighters there. But come chapter 6 Karin instantly becomes useful and can visit the western villages and the knights can mount. His five move becomes detrimental in the next few escape chapters and carrying him causes movement penalties. In fact in SSS runs which focus on effenciency until Corple's warp staff becomes god by chapter 10 it is actually recommended to have dalshien captured in order to lower turn count.

But lets say we want to keep him even though he his five move and armoredness becomes detrimental to gameplay after chapter 5, here is what happens:

Chapter 6 Hurts turncourt

Chapter 7 will likely be the last PC to reach Mease and also will get doubled by the swordfighters with kill swords and silvers

Chapter 8 decent in this chapter, but is likely fatigued

Chapter 8X there are hammer wielding bandits in the mansion somewhere so you have to be careful with him. (magic is very useful to kill gomes in this chapter)

Chapter 9 The terrain prevents dalshien from reaching the mansion

Chapter 10 Good dodge is actually useful as everyone gets 2-3hKOed by the long range weapons

Chapter 11 useful here i suppose. Most indoor units are

Chapter 11X there are mages in the gauntlet run and dalshien has bad dodge, bad resistence, low movement, and has very low hit with hand axes.

Chapter 12 anyone can be good in this chapter

Chapter 12X Warp skip

Chapter 13 escape chapter is bad for dalshien he will waste too many turns reaching tahra

Chapter 14 hammer wielding axe armors!!!!!

Chapter 14X He gets hit hard by the dark mages and the killer axe hero doubles him

Chapter 15 he reduces the movement of Karin, Dean and Eda if he is carried to the village

Chapter 16 Varies

Chapter 17 Varies

Chapter 18 Lenster armor knights have hammers! by now xavier is recruited.

In summary: Dalshien shouldn't be fielded after Manster prison escape he should be left behind by chapter 6 >.>

[grandjackal]

I think Selphina and Robert should be closer together, and above Alba and Kein. Anyone disagree?

It's not like she can't double, the strength is pretty much evenly matched for a while and she has duel on top of it. Then she can use fancier weapons before anyone else because not only is competition for said weapons rare, but she can use them before any other archer due to weapon rank. He has better growths by a god-raping amount and 3 PCR to her 1, and he can get these growths going soon enough. Basically he can kill things without fancy weapons..eventually. However, she starts superior and can further boost herself by sooner getting to promotion, or with fancy weapons, or with Duel, as she's pretty much fast enough. Robert can be above Selphina, but they shouldn't be that far apart.

As for why they're aobve Kein and Alba...They are safer to level as they are archers who don't take counters, and they don't need the Elite Sword, as they level up fast enough by themselves due to being archers. Even after leveling, they don't have a benefit like Selphina's duel or Robert's 3 PCR, and unlike them they have to deal with actual weapon competition.

Hmmm...Machua could promote at level 12 and be pretty cool...Like Othin if he had Ambush instead of Wrath. Less con though...

Edited August 13, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Salad Utensil]

Does anyone else have an opinion on my Xavier vs Dalshien argument or am I just making unwarrented claims?

[grandjackal]

I disagree with it due to Brave Bow argument, as Selphina really doesn't fail that much, and inf act may be better than Robert, and on top of it she can use it instantly in combination with her own Duel as well, making her quite a deadly unit.

Basically, I'm trying to get Selphina up, as no way in fuck she deserves to be that low just because "lolbowuser", considering she actually compares to Robert pretty well.

[Salad Utensil]

I disagree with it due to Brave Bow argument, as Selphina really doesn't fail that much, and inf act may be better than Robert, and on top of it she can use it instantly in combination with her own Duel as well, making her quite a deadly unit.

Basically, I'm trying to get Selphina up, as no way in fuck she deserves to be that low just because "lolbowuser", considering she actually compares to Robert pretty well.

I suppose if you use both than they can share it >.> its not like the brave axe where everyone who uses axes have the ranks to use it

[Salad Utensil]

I disagree with it due to Brave Bow argument, as Selphina really doesn't fail that much, and inf act may be better than Robert, and on top of it she can use it instantly in combination with her own Duel as well, making her quite a deadly unit.

Basically, I'm trying to get Selphina up, as no way in fuck she deserves to be that low just because "lolbowuser", considering she actually compares to Robert pretty well.

I suppose if you use both than they can share it >.> its not like the brave axe where everyone who uses axes have the ranks to use it

double post sorry

Edited August 13, 2009 by Brighton

[grandjackal]

I disagree with it due to Brave Bow argument, as Selphina really doesn't fail that much, and inf act may be better than Robert, and on top of it she can use it instantly in combination with her own Duel as well, making her quite a deadly unit.

Basically, I'm trying to get Selphina up, as no way in fuck she deserves to be that low just because "lolbowuser", considering she actually compares to Robert pretty well.

I suppose if you use both than they can share it >.> its not like the brave axe where everyone who uses axes have the ranks to use it

Problem is, Selphina exists for a lot longer than he does, and pretty much has exclusive use of it until others get their rank up (which takes forever). If they're sharing it, won't be much uses left on it.

[Salad Utensil]

Xavier can still use master and hand axes too its not like it's his only 2 range, killer is ok with him too. Unless you are trying to argue Selphina> xavier <,<

Edited August 13, 2009 by Brighton