FE5 Tier List

[dondon151]

Why bother when we can end this chapter in 1 turn anyways? Like Renall said, we could just deploy people we don't care about and just have Leaf escape? Sure we have to go to the prison chapter later in the game, but we can just escape that too and generally skip it. On top of that, apparently Conomore's army will be distracting Amalda's, which means our force won't be fighting the main force of the enemy. Now tell me this, is it worth recruiting Conomore when we could just skip this chapter and another, especially when it would just drag on the chapter where we gain absolutely nothing from it apparently? I think not.

Yeah why bother playing 3-5 when Ike can just stand on the defense square let's finish chapters in the most retarded ways possible to make other characters useless

It's headed by Amalda and 3 mage knights. That alone I'd say is hardly a joke.

Let's not forget about the troubadours with their fantastic strength!

Magic Swords aren't exactly a priority.

Hello. My name is Shiva. What's that? You want me to deal with those 1-2 range enemies over there? OK, but this will take awhile...

BTW if you really want to do damage with magic swords, use scrolls.

[grandjackal]

Yeah why bother playing 3-5 when Ike can just stand on the defense square let's finish chapters in the most retarded ways possible to make other characters useless

VERY accurate comparison! 3-5, that strat is slower than killing the boss as soon as possible. This chapter ends with just pushing on Leaf and pushing ok. By your logic, Conomore's group will take care of Amalda's, so we gain absolutely nothing from sticking around, and might as well leave.

This very well may be the stupidest chapter in the series.

Let's not forget about the troubadours with their fantastic strength!

The perfect distraction for Amalda and her mage knights to tear through his group like tissue.

Hello. My name is Shiva. What's that? You want me to deal with those 1-2 range enemies over there? OK, but this will take awhile...

BTW if you really want to do damage with magic swords, use scrolls.

So Misha's not the sole user of those magic swords? Thank you for conceding.

[cheetah7071]

Ok, as promised, I'm going to try to argue Tanya up. Don't want to spoil Marty vs Tanya, but I think she has a pretty good shot at making it above Misha. Probably even higher, too, but let's take this one step at a time.

So, first off, Tanya has 17 chapters of availibility over Misha (eerily enough, the number of gaiden chapters exactly cancels out the time Tanya is gone in Manster). She's definitely promoted by the time Misha joins. Let's put her at 20/3 or so in chapter 18 when you get Misha, which is low if she's promoting in chapter 15, but she might get fatigued in 16 or 17 or something. Misha hasn't had access to scrolls yet of course, and Tanya only really cares about three of them, Hezul, Neir, and Dain. Let's assume 10 or so levelups with Hezul, 8 or so with Neir (heavier competition), and 3 with Dain (heavy competition and late acquire time). She could probably get more, but I don't think she needs it to beat Misha. That puts Tanya at this:

Tanya level 20/3, 3 leadership stars fielded, receives Othin support:

36.4 hp, 14.3 str, 5.15 mag, 19.75 skl, 20 spd, 17.6 luk, 8.85 def, 6.85 bld

Steel Bow: 24 mt, 137 hit, 30 crit, 15 AS, 67 avo

Killer Bow: 25 mt, 147 hit, 60 crit, 18 AS, 73 avo

Brave Bow: 28 mt, 172 hit, 50 crit, 17 AS, 71 avo

2 PCC, no skills

Steel bow is her default weapon in normal circumstances. Killer should kill most things (lol 120 crit on pursuit), and brave is for when she needs for avoid a counter from a dark mage or something. It's not like she's actually competing for her bows.

Misha, level --/4, 3 leadership stars fielded, receives Karin support, mounted:

28 hp, 8 str, 13 mag, 11 skl, 16 spd, 6 luk, 6 def, 6 bld

Iron Lance: 15 mt, 117 hit, 21 crit, 13 AS, 51 avo

Killer Lance: 20 mt, 127 hit, 51 crit, 12 AS, 49 avo

Javelin: 14 mt, 97 hit, 21 crit, 10 AS, 45 avo

2 PCC, no skills

Lol, Tanya beats Misha at everything besides magic. Misha has one range, but I wouldn't recommend using her on the enemy phase, due to her extreme frailty. 6 def and 28 really isn't fun at this point in the game. I'm not seeing FE5 enemy stats anywhere, but I'm pretty sure 13 AS misses the double on some of the faster enemies at this point. She can have 102 crit on a pursuit with a killer lance, but Tanya manages to have just below a 70% chance of critting over two attacks with just a steel bow, and can pull the same ubercrit Misha does with a killer. And if all Misha is doing is sniping an enemy on the player phase and then hiding in a corner, she's basically just Tanya except she needs a better weapon to do it and takes a counter. Sure, she has canto, but attacking from 2 range accomplishes many of the same things canto does, in that it makes it much easier to posotion yourself to be safe on the enemy phase. All mounted!Misha has on Tanya is rescuing, since there's no way in hell she's ever capturing an enemy, especially since all the lances with a brave effect are personal. I'd personally take the extra durability and outgoing supports (Othin and Dagda compared to Misha's nobody) over the ability to rescue anybody. This isn't even mentioning that Misha's incoming support, which she needs to have a guaranteed crit on a pursuit, is going to be fielded less often than Tanya's incoming support, which she only needs if she wants to play a critgame without moving to killer. Let's move onto unmounted Misha, since maybe there'll be less failure there. Thunder sword is chosen as the magic sword that has the least competition.

Misha, level --/4, 3 leadership stars fielded, receives Karin support, unmounted:

28 hp, 7 str, 13 mag, 10 skl, 15 spd, 6 luk, 4 def, 6 bld

Iron Sword: 13 mt, 135 hit, 20 crit, 15 AS, 57 avo

Steel Sword: 16 mt, 130 hit, 20 crit, 10 AS, 47 avo

Kill Sword: 16 mt, 140 hit, 50 crit, 14 AS, 55 avo

Thunder Sword: 22 mt, 145 hit, 20 crit, 12 AS, 51 avo

2 PCC, no skills

I'm not sure if the magic swords use the same stats at range, or if they actually cast the spell. If they actually cast the spell, the only noteworthy changes are -2 mt and -2 AS.

Misha's only real improvement is her 1-2 range game. Her 1-range game is just as fail as ever, except now her defense is even lower. Misha probably does more damage at 2-range than Tanya due to hitting res, but she loses her advantage of being a mage-killer, and can't play the critgame like Tanya can.

I won't go over the rest of the game in as much detail. Misha has some noteworthy growth advantages over Tanya, most notably +20% str and +10% spd. Misha catches up to Tanya's speed fairly quickly since Tanya's capped, and will have roughly the same AS unmounted, but mounted her AS will always struggle with the heavy lances. An extra 20% str sounds nice, but in reality, Misha is only gaining on Tanya's str once every 5 levels, with only 10 or so levels left in anormal game, and 16 if they somehow reach level 20. At that rate, none of the weapon options I've presented here will ever equal the mt of Tanya's steel bow, even at level 20. Misha can switch to silver, but then Tanya switches to silver too, or even to brave, and Misha is left in the dust again.

Misha's defensive growths are only 5% higher in hp and def, and tied in mag. In other words, Tanya continues her durability lead against physical enemies, and Misha will never exceed Tanya's magekilling ability more than she already does.

Speaking of magekilling, that's exactly the situation that sexy brave bow is perfect for: avoiding potentially dangerous counters. Misha can't do the same sort of thing without fighting over seriously contested weapons until near endgame, when Master weapons become available. But whereas Tanya has to fight with nobody but Xavier for her supply of Master bows that enable her to have the brave effect on 24/7, Misha will get 2 master weapons at most, and probably only 1. Which means the rest of the time she's back to using killer weapons and eating counters.

Pretty much the only way Tanya can ever lose to Misha is if her earlygame is negative utility. If it's even neutral, Tanya wins. The only way she can really accrue negative utility is through eating resources or needing protection. On the subject of protection, I'll just quote myself on Tanya's performance in 8x, and leave that with the comment that if she's fine in 8x, she's fine in every chapter of the game, because 8x stacks the odds against her about as much as it reasonably can:

Enemies coming in, presuming the accuracy of 73, will have a 29% chance to hit her. Since only one enemy is ever attacking her (stick her in a corner with Dagda right above her), if you left her with a vulnerary at the end of chapter 3, she'll have an 0.2% chance of dying by turn 5, an 0.8% chance of dying by turn 6, and only a 9% chance of dying by turn 10. Give her two vulneraries and the chances of her dying before she reunites with the rest of the team are laughable. Meanwhile, every time the enemy misses twice in a row, she gets to attack one of them, and she kills one every two attacks. Maybe not the superstar of the chapter, but not a liability either.

As for eating resources, she has a monolpoly on bows, she she's only eating into the team's ability to sell, which every single unit in the game does. That leaves her knight's proof. Now, other people in this topic have said that Knight's proofs are in serious competition, but that's seriously not true. Even promoting by chapter 16, as I've argued, you have 10 knights proofs by then in the A route, and in the B route you'll get your tenth the following chapter. Adding in Leaf, that's 11 combat units you can use who aren't late-joiners or prepromotes (who either don't use knight's proofs or can wait a few chapters past 16), plus any number of utility units who don't need levels to be useful (e.g. Saphy, Sleuf, Tina, Lara). 11 units is not a small number. Even assuming a staggering 2 units fatigued every single chapter (which is a huge overestimate) you'll still have nine to use every chapter, which is more than enough to beat any chapter in the game. Thus, if eleven units (plus prepromos, utiltiy units, and late joiners) is enough to do the game easily, using a knight's proof isn't an issue.

Thus, Tanya has at least nonnegative utility before Misha joins, then smashes Misha into pieces when she joins. Tanya>Misha.

Edited July 22, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Don Draper]

I don't really have too many comments on Misha vs. Tanya, but Mekkah would have to make the changes, as he's in charge of the tier list (make sure to update the first post with the new one I posted a page back, Mekkah). However, I kind of realized how terrible Conomore really is when comparing him to Dagda.

Dagda is in Chapters 1-3, and then comes back in 8x. Conomore arrives in Chapter 17. Base level Dagda has +4 HP, +1 Str, and +2 Bld over Conomore. Conomore has +2 Mag, +7 Skl (yay?), +2 Spd, +2 Def and +2 Lck over BASE LEVEL Dagda. They both have Charge. Having +2 in a few stats over a character who is certainly faltering lategame (and would of certainly gotten some scroll level ups by now) is pretty awful. Conomore does have A rank in his weapon levels, but Dagda starts with A Axes too. Conomore comes in, probably being the worst unit on your team, so I actually could see him falling to bottom again.

[Mekkah]

Done, IOS. I moved Machua down quite a bit (to below Eyrios) and Dagda up (to below Leaf). And Fred up (to below Amalda), though I'm not so sure about his move above Glade...Glade does have a pretty monopoly on Master/Silver Lances, and the leadership star.

I'm taking a closer look at Ralph now since I felt that he might move up, but results aren't as great as I hoped.

--/3 Ralph (1 PCC)

38 hp, 12 str, 1 mag, 12 skl, 14 spd, 9 def, 6 luk, 14 bld

Iron Axe: 21 atk, 14 AS, 95 hit -- 36 avo

Hand Axe: 18 atk, 14 AS, 75 hit

Iron Sword: 18 atk, 14 AS, 105 hit

And he has Hammer and all that jazz available too. These stats are equivalent to a Halvan somewhere between 15/0 and 20/0, though Ralph has A swords and almost B axes, but admittedly Halvan has Ambush + 4 PCC. Still, he's pretty close to him, and didn't need a Knight Proof.

I won't touch Cyas (who is right above him) for now, but for example Fred:

--/5 Fred (1 PCC, mounted)

35 hp, 12 str, 12 skl, 11 spd, 10 def, 5 luk, 12 bld

Steel Sword: 21 atk, 11 AS, 94 hit -- 27 avo

Iron Lance: 19 atk, 11 AS, 97 hit

Javelin: 18 atk, 11 AS, 79 hit

Of course Fred loses when he dismounts, but he's also been around since 11x while Ralph only joins in 15, and he has his Olwen support and mounted uses outside...

Really, Ralph doesn't strike me as Low much, it's just that FE5 units are just good at combat in general that makes Ralph look sucky.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Mekkah

[Don Draper]

Well, I think Glade>Fred, if only for Glade's A in Lances, Leadership star. Their starting stats are very similar, although Fred does have a few more chapters. In the end though, Glade simply has more to bring to the table. Agreed with Ralph out of low as well.

Now, I'm a little unsure about Olwen's position. Her base stats are similar to Alva's for crying out loud.

Alva: 24 HP, 6 Str, 0 Mag, 5 Skl, 9 Spd, 4 Lck, 5 Def, 9 Bld

Olwen: 24 HP, 5 Str, 10 Mag, 8 Skl, 10 Spd, 5 Lck, 4 Def, 5 Bld

She's worse durability wise (except against mages), she is worse AS wise (She shouldn't be using swords, and she loses AS from every tome), the only advantage she really has is that she obviously has better magic and 4 PCC. Now, I'm just a little unsure about a unit being this high that has comparable base stats to an underlevelled, pretty awful unit. Yes, Daim Thunder+Vantage=death, but Daim Thunder is useless without Vantage (lol 0 AS). Her offense is pretty good, but is it really enough when her durability is awful? I mean...

Alva (6/0): 27 HP, 15 Atk (Iron Lance), 91 Hit, 11 AS, 6 Def, 28 Avd

Olwen (??/2): 24 HP, 17 Atk (Thunder), 81 Hit, 5 AS, 4 Def, 15 Avd

Pretty embarrassing that her only win is offense, which may not even be a win thanks to having only 5 AS.

Edited July 22, 2009 by IOS

[Renall]

It's not useless without Ambush, it's just significantly worse and requires considerably greater attention be paid to her safety.

However, if she DOES get the resource (and it's relatively non-contentious in my opinion, as only a handful of characters have the offense to make Ambush worthwhile; look at how little it helps Machua because she doesn't kill), her power jumps considerably, and I think that's why she's rated as highly as she is. She does have very low stats for a prepromote, but her growths are universally high and excellent for scroll use, which she has no reason not to get every so often.

It's a tough debate because she's pretty awesome with a limited (only one manual) resource, and not terrible (but also not all that great) without it. Eyrios competes with her due to high bases and weapon levels, but it's hard to compare characters in such grossly different circumstances. Every Olwen debate is basically going to turn on "Well if she uses Daim Thunder and/or gets Ambush" vs. "Yeah well WHAT IF SHE DOESN'T?" which is kind of a tired debate as it applies to Olwen's comparison with ANYONE.

Also she's hitting RES (well, MAG), not competing for weapons with Fin and Glade... admittedly Kein and Alva can get pretty amazing if they get their hands on scrolls, and they and Olwen are both somewhat hard to train. Tough to say.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Renall

[Don Draper]

Another HUGE problem with Olwen is her missing one of her hits. Just look at how many hits Halvan misses with the Brave Axe in this video with High 80s-Low 90s accuracy. Halvan can afford to miss these hits, as the enemies have about 15% accuracy on him, and he's like...8-9RKO'd. Olwen however has atrocious durability, and missing just one shot could mean death. She's way too frail to be that high. Not to mention that anybody with access to a Master Lance/Axe wants Ambush just as badly as she does. Not to mention anybody with access to an Armor/Horse slaying weapon.

Start around 4:25 and look at Halvan's hit rates against the enemies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTTNhio8zs8...feature=related

I'm also thinking Salem higher. Blowing through just a heal staff and mend staff will put him at B rank staves, and he can promote to get A rank staves. His offense also isn't terrible with Wind, he'll have 19 Atk/9 AS/20 Crit with Wind if he's 10/1 and had three levelups with the Sety scroll. 9 AS is good enough for Dagda, and his offense is definitely passable, what with poor enemy magic. At least he has offense options, unlike most other staff users. Even though Sleuf comes ready made with A staves, Salem climbing to around Sleuf's level doesn't seem out of the question.

Edited July 23, 2009 by IOS

[Mekkah]

I agree with your concerns with Olwen, but I don't think they say a lot because she isn't in Top or High - she's already in Upper Mid. I can see Hicks above her as he only requires Sety scrolling to be comparable to her in offens. Though in indoor chapters I'd argue Olwen > him, because of how valuable 1-2 range is in such tight corridors, but then Hicks also has like 5 chapters of more availability. So Hicks and Olwen switching places at least isn't unheard of.

And then you get a whole bunch of vague people. Leaf and Karin are there pretty much solely based on their utility, and after that comes Dagda...I think Dagda > Olwen is very easy to argue, but the question is whether Dagda should just go above Leaf/Karin or Olwen come below. Then you get more dubious people like Galzus/Sety with their major positive utility for a very minor timeframe...I don't think Olwen should move below the "middle line" as I like to call it.

Also, I always saw Mareeta and Olwen as going hand in hand. Their base durabilities are hilariously close and they join not even 5 turns away from each other. I think Hicks > Mareeta, at least, is easily justified through the whole durability > offense deal.

Salem can rise above Machua/Galzus/Sety at least imo, in fact Machua might drop even further. I don't know if I can agree with him > Leaf however, for example. If anything I find Sleuf a tad overrated right now. For example, I think he is perfectly arguable against Karin. Even if you think A staves > flying in utility, Karin has a billion more chapters to apply it do, and she gives Fergus +50% crit.

So how about

-Last bit of High-

Carrion

Homer

-Upper Mid-

Hicks

Karin

Leaf

Dagda

Salem

Sleuf

Sety

Galzus

Mareeta

Olwen

Eyrios

Machua

Trewd

[grandjackal]

*Raises hand* Uh yeah, just one small bit. Uhhhh, what's Trewd doing out of lower mid? Methinks he would fit better below Glade, or at least around his level...

Statistically, there's just nothing impressive about Trewd. On top of that he needs training, and the only thing he has to repay your troubles with is Nihil, a skill that is nigh useless. At least Glade needs to knight proof, is decent also, and has a leadership star with a mount.

[Robert]

Why not just push Eyrios one spot up for reasons mentioned above?

[Don Draper]

I can definitely agree with that tier arrangement at the moment. Trewd may or may not be comparable to Machua, I might do a comparison later to see how similar they are. I have a feeling Machua will have the offensive edge, while Trewd will have the defensive edge, but we'll see.

I'm also looking at Xavier, and wondering what he's doing so low. He is excellent defensively, (38 HP/17 Def at base), comes with A Axes and Bows, has Wrath for incredible offense (At base level, he'll have 52 Atk on a wrath counter with a steel axe) and really only has to watch out for hammer users. Level% chance to activate Big Shield doesn't hurt either.

Edited July 23, 2009 by IOS

[grandjackal]

I'm also looking at Xavier, and wondering what he's doing so low. He is excellent defensively, (38 HP/17 Def at base), comes with A Axes and Bows, has Wrath for incredible offense (At base level, he'll have 52 Atk on a wrath counter with a steel axe) and really only has to watch out for hammer users. Level% chance to activate Big Shield doesn't hurt either.

I think 6 base speed might have something to do with it.

[Don Draper]

Non-issue. Like I said, 52 base attack on a wrath counterattack. Why would he ever need to double? And its not like he's getting doubled, what with lol enemy AS in this game.

Edited July 23, 2009 by IOS

[Mekkah]

Trewd sure has issues, but the people in Lower Mid are something else. Dalshien has both offense and mobility issues, and to top it off there's those Hammers.

Xavier is like Sety/Galzus, except instead of o_O for 1-3 maps he isn't as o_O but for a longer time. I analyzed Xavier in some kind of detail in my character ratings topic:

Xavier*

I'm not going to factor difficulty of recruitment into this one, since it has nothing to do with a unit's performance.

His stats seem reasonable at first glance. 38 hp/17 def is very good. 13 str is okay, and he can use pretty much every weapon he wants to. This includes the Brave Bow, which is obviously good since there's pretty much no good character that can use it. However, his 6 Spd is downright ugly. The only people slower than him at base level are Tina and Dalshien, and he ties with Brighton. And Xavier's first action is likely in Ch19, which is a chapter with enemies with actual AS. And it also has some long-range tomes, some Mage Knights, even some very dangerous Hammers. And obviously, move is an issue for him no matter which group he starts in, either for getting to the action or retreating from it.

For some reason he does have three great skills. Charge doesn't do a lot for him with that kind of speed, except helping him against joke enemies and getting him doubled by ballistae. Wrath, however, helps to fix his offense issues to a great extent, and Great Shield is essentially his only form of dodging, though it will never have reliable activation (6% at base, I'd expect maybe 12% at endgame).

Ch20 is nicer to him because it's easy to slide him into a choke point if you're playing it out defensively, and enemies don't really have Spd at all. He does better against armors and ballistae than most, but he has to be extremely careful when it comes to those Mages randomly popping up. He can help capturing them for their Door Keys with his enormous 15 build, though. A problem with him is that he has to be healed pretty often, since unlike others, he pretty much never dodges.

Ch21 is another case of being good against ballistae, but now he has to be careful that a Dark Mage doesn't pop up next to him and take out a huge chunk of his health. The same problem exists in Ch23. Ch22 isn't doing him much good with the Hammers and Reinhardt's troops, but at least he can soak up ballistae without any danger whatsoever.

After that, you go indoors, where people have move more like his, and he actually has more weapon versatility than anyone (including Dalshien, since he doesn't have weapon levels as good). He can be of use hitting Dark Mages before they can counter with his Brave Bow.

For the rest, he brings a leadership star to the table, which means that even if you just put him on the map and not doing anything else he's giving out a slight bonus to everyone. It can be argued this isn't really "using" Xavier as part of your team, but whatever, it helps.

Bad in Ch19, above average in the other maps he's on, Wrath, Brave Bow, good hp/def, bad mobility and a leadership star. That sums him up.

7/10

I could see him above anyone who really sucks, but...those people are already below him as it is.

[Don Draper]

I could see him above Dalshien at least. Dalshien is pretty meh for the entire game, while Xavier shows up with excellent offense/defense, and benefits the entire team with his leadership star.

PS: Other then Xavier potentially moving up, I agree with the arrangement you posted last page.

Edited July 23, 2009 by IOS

[Swordsalmon]

Dalshien at least has utility in Chapters 4x-6, where most physical enemies are only say, five-rounding him or so. And the Brave Axe improves his offense through this part. I'm not sure if that'd make him better than Xavier's late-game tanking, though.

[cheetah7071]

Anybody have any comments on mmy Tanya/Misha post?

[Mekkah]

Oh, I agree with Tanya above Misha as well. I think Misha can drop to bottom of Low, or even top of Bottom.

Made the changes. Also some other things in Bottom that I felt weren't right. I don't really like Shanam getting credit for Bargain, especially not for battle preps-bought irons.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Mekkah

[Renall]

Just to stir the pot on the other side of the list:

Thoughts on the positioning of Shiva, Halvan, and Fergus? I could potentially see Fergus going up even more. Movement star, horse, starts with a C and change in Swords, actually gets a support from someone who'd be fielded and supports her (Karin), and I think he's a good bit more important in the chapters he doesn't share with Halvan than Halvan is in the ones he doesn't (you don't have Dagda and Eyvel in the Manster chapters). He's also very comparable to Halvan growthwise, and has a solid SKL lead and more accurate weapons, so when he uses his 5 PCC he isn't missing. Plus access to magic swords and he uses the same weapon mounted as dismounted. I suppose Halvan picks up on promotion, but he has to work his Swords rank up. Promo gains are similar but Fergus gets an extra MOV and a little CON and a free rank of Swords (Halvan winds up at D Swords).

Shiva I just don't know about. I've never been a fan of Sol, but he has growths to back up his tier ranking and he's guaranteed to max Swords for basically zero effort (even if all he ever does is promote, he caps Sword rank). Plus a Saphy support... I dunno.

Othin has the Pugi (which is his alone) and that has some amazing benefits, plus Wrath. Halvan's great, but the Hero Axe isn't his exclusively and other people do want it. Shiva and Fergus either have weapons more or less exclusive to their use in the early parts where it matters (Killer and Rapier in the prison chapters, Shiva starts with a B so he's way ahead of the other sword users), or supports to essentially guarantee kills. And when everybody joins back up again, Shiva and Halvan don't really have an answer to Fergus's horse.

[Mekkah]

Against Halvan, what really makes it iffy for Shiva and Fergus is the bigger competition and less availability for ranged swords. You can get one of each without much antics...the Fire Sword has to be captured from a Armor who equips it while standing on a fort (just FYI we're talking about hitting like 20 def with halved atk here, never mind hit chances). Or we need a Bld-blessed Lifis, which is also the only way you're getting any of Fred's Thunder Swords. Halvan meanwhile enjoys inaccurate but nonetheless buyable Hand Axes. There's something to say for him not having infinite per sé, due to lack of gold and Bargain at this point, but nonetheless he's quite a bit better off.

I suppose Fergus and Shiva are a lot better off qua supports, though they're not always gonna be around. Like Karin is mostly treasured for flying around getting villages, and indoors I'd say she's quite worthless other than that Fergus support, and Saphy can't go anywhere in ballista range and such, plus both of these, especially Saphy, fatigue so quickly.

All in all, I see all Halvan vs these two going either way. I'd like to say Fergus > Shiva though, because I find Fergus' outside mount more useful than Shiva's Sol anywhere.

[Don Draper]

A long time ago on gamefaqs, BeserkerBlade/Norton Sez What did a quick comparision of the top six physical units (Othin, Fin, Shiva, Fergus, Brighton and Halvan). I dug it up, and here's what he said:

okay:

Othin, Halvan, and Fin are usable for 4 chapters. Brighton and Felgus have 5, but Fin rejoins on the last one, Shiva is recruited during that same chapter, and Othin and Halvan come back right after that one. I say this is an edge for Brighton and Felgus here, since kicking ass for a longer time equals good.

pulling out numbers for when they're all together:

7/0 Othin:

32 HP, 8 str, 9 skl, 11 AS, 6 def, 6 lck, 13 bld

7/0 Halvan:

32 HP, 9 str, 8 skl, 9 AS, 7 def, 4 lck, 14 bld

11/0 Fin:

30 HP, 9 str, 9 skl, 12 AS, 8 def, 7 lck, 9 bld

8/0 Felgus:

29 HP, 8 str, 9 skl, 9 AS, 6 def, 8 lck, 9 bld

10/0 Brighton

32 HP, 8 str, 7 skill, 8 AS, 8 def, 3 luck

7/0 Shiva:

25 HP, 7 str, 10 skill, 13 AS, 5 def, 6 lck, 7 bld

Pitting everybody versus everybody...

Othin vs Halvan: Othin has Wrath, his own personal axe which has uber crit and 1-2 range, and obtaining another one is possible. Halvan's ambush combos well with the hero axe, but Othin can use that just as well to destroy everything. Halvan's durability isn't even that much better. I'm seeing a clear win for Othin here.

Othin vs Fin: Fin wins. Othin pwninates everything. Fin pwninates everything and has a defense and move lead.

Othin vs Felgus: Felgus's offense isn't quite lolh4x, so I think Othin's beating him out.

Othin vs Brighton: Debatable. Brighton has defense and move, but his accuracy is kinda lower, he doesnt have the Puji for good hit at 1-2 range, and he doesnt really have the loloffense that Othin has later on with just Handaxes. Tough one to call here.

Othin vs Shiva: Durability and offense>>>Sol.

Halvan vs Fin: I think it's pretty clear that Fin's winning.

Halvan vs Felgus: They're near identical except for the fact that Halvan has a better weapon and Vantage and Felgus has a horse and Canto. I'm going with Felgus here.

Halvan vs Brighton: Near identical stats, so it's coming down to skills. Obviously, Brighton's winning that.

Halvan vs Shiva: Actually, this one's kinda tough to call. I'm more inclined to side with Halvan for the concrete durability and slightly better offense, though.

Fin vs Felgus: Er, stats say it all.

Fin vs Brighton: Slightly better stats vs Wrath. I say Wrath wins, actually.

Fin vs Shiva: lol raep

Felgus vs Brighton: Slightly better stats AND Wrath versus...err....5 CCR?

Felgus vs Shiva: I'm actually inclined to give this one to Shiva, since their durability is roughly the same, Sol's chance to activate gets better on doubles, and the chance for that activation starts to pile up after a while, so it's bound to activate at least ONCE before he dies.

Brighton vs Shiva: Stats make it pretty damn obvious Brighton pwns here.

Also, I think Othin's ability to kill stuff on the player phase better, not to mention doing it without fear of eating counters makes him slightly better than Brighton.

So, for earlymidgame:

Fin

Othin

Brighton

Halvan

Shiva

Felgus

midgameish:

15/0 Othin:

39 HP, 10 str, 11 skl, 14 spd, 8 def, 11 lck, 15 bld

15/0 Halvan:

38 HP, 12 str, 10 skl, 11 spd, 9 def, 6 lck, 16 bld

17/0 Fin:

34 HP, 12 str, 11 skl, 15 spd, 10 def, 10 lck, 10 bld

16/0 Brighton:

36 HP, 9 str, 9 skl, 9 spd, 10 def, 4 lck, 13 bld

15/0 Felgus:

34 HP, 10 str, 12 skl, 11 spd, 8 def, 11 lck, 10 bld

14/0 Shiva:

31 HP, 11 str, 14 skill, 16 spd, 7 def, 11 lck, 9 bld

Fin's owning everybody so badly I'm not even going to bother with him.

I think Othin's just barley pulling out a win over Shiva due to the fact that he has Wrath and 1-2 range and Shiva doesn't. Heck, I don't even think he'll need the Puji to have ownage 1-2 range anymore. You can just use handaxes and he'll do fine with those killer offense stats. So it's down to 1-2 range versus Felgus's move...I'm more inclined to go with Othin here. So he's basically in the excact same position he was in last time, beating everybody not named Fin and getting owned by Fin.

Halvan's beating out Brighton due to being able to kill things better on the player phase, I think. Poor Brighton's offense is looking rather mehish. I think Shiva's still ever so slightly beating him, espically since Sol has an even better chance of activating now. He's beating Felgus badly as well.

In all honesty, I think Brighton's losing out to everybody this time since his str is starting to suck and his hit is giving him problems.

I'd say Felgus is getting creamed by Halvan pretty badly due to the stats and Vantage. plus he's getting wtfowned by Shiva due to the offense and Sol. Probably the second worst here.

Shiva's caught up a bit. He's beating Halvan, Felgus, and Brighton and losing out to everybody else

k so for the midgame it's:

Fin

Othin

Shiva

Halvan

Felgus

Brighton

latergame:

20/3 Othin

45 HP, 14 str, 15 skl, 19 spd, 12 def, 15 lck, 16 bld

20/3 Halvan:

44 HP, 17 str, 14 skl, 16 spd, 14 def, 8 lck, 18 bld

20/5 Fin:

38 HP, 16 str, 16 skl, 19 spd, 14 def, 13 lck, 12 bld

20/3 Felgus:

38 HP, 15 str, 18 skl, 17 spd, 12 def, 14 lck, 13 bld

20/4 Brighton:

41 HP, 13 str, 14 skl, 13 spd, 14 def, 5 lck, 16 bld

20/3 Shiva:

37 HP, 16 str, 20 skl, 20 spd, 11 def, 16 lck, 11 bld

I think I'd say Shiva's the best here pretty easily. Shiva's going to be shooting off Sol, Adept, and Criticals like crazy. Actually, I think I'd side with Sol>1-2 range this time, espically when you factor in how frequently Shiva's going to activate it. I don't think Fin's move is QUITE outdoing Shiva's h4x, so we have a new leader.

Brighton's offense has improved a bit, enough to the level where I'd place him above Felgus. Fin and the axefighters are still beating him, though.

I'd still say Fin's beating Othin if only for that horse.

Othin above Halvan but below Fin.

Halvan's still beating Felgus and probably Brighton too.

Lategame:

Shiva

Fin

Othin

Halvan

Brighton

Felgus

Endgame, and the level gaps have probably closed by now. I'll give a rough estimate of 20/12 for everybody:

Shiva:

43 HP, 19 str, 20 skill, 20 spd, 14 def, 20 luck, 12 bld, wtf 8 move

Othin:

53 HP, 17 str, 17 skl, 20 spd, 15 def, 19 lck, 18 bld, 7 move

Halvan:

51 HP, 19 str, 16 skl, 18 spd, 17 def, 11 lck, 19 bld, 7 move

Fin:

42 HP, 18 str, 18 skl, 20 spd, 16 def, 16 lck, 12 bld, 9 move

Felgus:

44 HP, 18 str, 20 skl, 19 spd, 14 def, 17 lck, 15 bld, 9 move

Brighton:

46 HP, 16 str, 16 skl, 16 spd, 17 def, 6 lck, 17 bld, 9 move

I'm still leaning toward's Shiva's crazy Sol activation rate>Othin and Halvan's def/HP, and Sol>1-2 range as well, since Othin can't killinate everything if he's dead. Plus Shiva has an extra move space and a move star.

Othin above Halvan for the same reasons as before. I'd say the two of them are beating Fin because of their skills. Also, Halvan plus Master Axe equals everything dies without even taking a counter, so I'd actually say Halvan>Othin now.

I'd give Brighton a slight edge over Felgus again, espically since master axes exsist.

forgot to factor in fatigue, but oh well, it probably wouldn't have changed much, just an extra level or two for Othin/Halvan and maybe Brighton.

so, endgame it's:

Shiva

Halvan

Othin

Fin

Brighton

Felgus

So, what I can draw from this:

Fin's slowing down endgame but he's still doing well, and he's been pwning everybody since midgame. I'd say he goes in the top slot.

Othin's been pwning Halvan and mostly everybody else not named Fin for a loong time and only loses to Halvan endgame. I say Othin right below Fin.

Shiva doesn't have the pre-Fatigue ownage that Othin and Halvan did, but he catches up to Halvan fast enough to warrent being above him, I think.

Halvan gets crushed by the top 3 for a majority of the game, but he's holding a solid lead endgame losing only to Shiva. He takes fourth, I'd say.

Brighton's good earlygame, starts to slow down midgame, then makes a comeback lategame and endgame. Midgame seriously hurts him since he's even losing to Felgus there. He takes fifth.

Felgus is almost always the worst of the sixsome, so I'd tag him dead last.

I don't agree with all of it (Brighton's offense is being underrated), but it should provide a decent argument for the top six.

Edited July 23, 2009 by IOS

[cheetah7071]

I don't really like Shanam getting credit for Bargain, especially not for battle preps-bought irons.

Why not? I can understand the battle-prep shop, but you hae to field him to save money in in-chapter shops. The most notabale buyable items past when you get him are buyable silvers, buyable killers, wind, and light. Knight's proofs too I guess. Secret shop as well.

It saves him from being below Miranda if nothing else.

Edited July 23, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Mekkah]

I was going to be surprised at B2BD pulling numbers, but his descriptions are so vague I'm not putting much weight to it. He's also giving zero consideration to Fin's biggest problem (lock to C-B swords indoors with not enough PCC or str to ORKO reliably). Or even not being able to pwninate anything (particulary armors) without Wrath or Brave Lance, but then again I haven't tried to use Brave Lance with Fin 24/7. Also, never mind the fact Brave Lance doesn't have 1-2 range.

Regarding Shanam, you have to field him, yes. But you don't really have to "use" him as a team member. It's really vague and hard to explain. Regardless, Shanam's also not being ORKOed as often as Miranda, but Miranda has moar 2~range...

[dondon151]

Regarding Shanam, you have to field him, yes. But you don't really have to "use" him as a team member. It's really vague and hard to explain. Regardless, Shanam's also not being ORKOed as often as Miranda, but Miranda has moar 2~range...

You seem to be redefining what kinds of utility count and what doesn't. Shanam's utility is getting equipment in large amounts for less money. If this doesn't count, then it's like saying thief utility doesn't count either. You don't have to "use" Lifis or Pahn as a team member to open doors and chests. If this subtlety is so difficult to explain (I don't understand the difference myself), then it's better off to just consider Shanam's Bargain as a character-specific utility.