FE5 Tier List

[Fei Mao]

I could see Machua maybe going up with her ambush and her pretty high speed and skill probable blocker for chapter 14 and some chapters, though even after promotion (correct me if I'm wrong) she can only capture soldiers archers, mages, unarmed units, but not axe users, (brigand) and Armors.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Jason W.

[Renall]

Carrion doesn't need to use Lances that often. The argument that he must somehow "juggle weapon types" is pretty specious. He can neglect Lances, it's not like he really needs them. Maybe if he wants Javelins, but he already has a D and can use them. He also gets a support from Leaf (and, bizarrely, Selfina), though he supports no one. While he has no "right" to the Elite Sword, if he's being used he's an obvious choice for it for a couple of chapters to help him up to speed. If it's used judiciously, it isn't like there's a problem passing it around.

Machua was badly overrated before. Now she's underrated? Make up your minds, people. She isn't bad, but I think her killing problems are being understated. And possibly durability. She is handy with a Killer though, but gains no supports (except from Sety, which is way late) and only supports Brighton. I think her position can go up if she's considered for an early proof (since she should have enough exp out of Manster to promote right away); if you could show me a reasonable time to get to D Axes, I'd certainly put her over at least Mareeta. Problem is, those early proofs are coveted. Asvel wants one. Fergus wants one. Fin probably wants one. Safy might like one if it's necessary to get to A Staves in time (it shouldn't be, but you never know). What's Machua giving us that justifies giving it to her over any of them?

[Salad Utensil]

Now, I think people have been overrating Carrion because everyone loves to give him favouritism, like giving him the Elite Sword. Problem is, he isn't entitled to it. Lets look at Carrion vs. Machua.

Now Machua's had the Manster escape chapters to be very useful, where Carrion doesn't even exist. This also lets her get plenty of levels by the time Carrion finally shows up. Lets take a look:

Machua 9/0

28 HP, 38 Avd, 6 Def

Iron Sword: 12 Atk, 15 AS, 14 and 42 Crit

Rapier (effective): 18 Atk, 15 AS, 24 and 72 Crit

Carrion 1/0

24 HP, 22 Avd, 5 Def

Iron Sword: 11 Atk, 8 AS, 5 and 20 Crit

Iron Lance: 12 Atk, 5 AS, 5 and 20 Crit

Machua is obviously winning, plus she might of had some scroll time from Manster, meaning her lead would be even higher. I don't think any further explanation is needed. Now, Carrion isn't entitled to the Elite Sword because many other people want it too. Shiva's only three levels higher then Carrion right now, so he wants it. Nanna wants it so she gets more exp from healing. Even Machua might want it here and then for a level boost. But lets look at them a little bit later.

Machua 16/0

32 HP, 49 Avd, 8 Def

Silver: 22 Atk, 18 AS, 18 and 54 Crit

Carrion 14/0

34 HP, 41 Avd, 9 Def

Iron Blade: 22 Atk, 8 AS, 13 and 52 Crit

Steel Sword: 19 Atk, 11 AS, 13 and 52 Crit

Steel Lance: 2 less atk then Iron Blade, same otherwise

Carrion's still losing, thanks to his build and lower weapon level. See, Carrion starts with E Swords (although it becomes D soon), and he has to juggle two weapon types, so he can't just focus on one. This means that if he wants to match Machua's damage output, he's going to have to sacrifice his AS, making his avoid even lower. Machua is still beating Carrion. Not really including scrolls in this comparison, as they will help them both out about equally. Can a promotion save him? Well lets see.

Machua 20/1

35 HP, 52 Avd, 12 Def

Silver Sword: 26 Atk, 20 AS, 20 and 60 Crit

Iron Axe: 23 Atk, 20 AS, 20 and 60 Crit

Master Sword: 26 Atk, 15 AS, 25 and 75 Crit

Carrion 20/1

38 HP, 52 Avd, 12 Def

Silver Sword: 29 Atk, 18 AS, 20 and 80 Crit

Silver Lance: 30 Atk, 18 AS, 20 and 80 Crit

Master Sword: 29 Atk, 15 AS, 25 and 100 Crit

Now they may seem even in everything but offence, but Machua also has the advantage of having Ambush, which will allow her to ORKO enemies before they can even attack her. This helps her durability immensely. Carrion on the other hand is forced to take every single attack during enemy phase, and cannot destroy enemies before they even have a chance to attack. The offence on these characters is also overkill. 26 Atk for example is enough to OHKO a 36 HP/13 Def Armors with a critical in the FINAL CHAPTER. Therefore, the defencive advantages that Machua has through Ambush, along with her much better start, are enough to outweigh Carrion's slight offensive advantage after promotion. Carrion down, or Machua up (I think we've been a little too hard on her).

I contend Machua is overrated

About favoritism, Carrion not getting the elite sword isn't really that important. Its not like he must hoard it. He only needs a few uses in chapter 9 to gain a couple of levels to be statistically par to the rest of the characters. Then in chapter 10 that arena near the first bastilla practically begging you to use it while the your units that aren't underleveled painstakingly makes its way to Olwen and Fred and the General boss. Gaining him around 7 levels in chapter 8, 9, and 10 isn't really that hard and by then he is a competant fighter and can start contributing positively (whatever that means)

About Machua's level lead due to the manster chapters. I don't really see a significant difference between Carrion and Machua. Statwise, in fact at 8 levels lower I think carrion actually is better offensively. His 8 AS lets him double generics (I think), his 4 pcc and leaf support instantly gives him 60%CC on the second attack with iron. Machua has 42% CC after a double. Shiva MIGHT not even need the elite sword at the moment that carrion joins. He does join in after 7 after all and starts near the arena. Its not unlikely he gained a level or two in the arena while leaf and his friends makes their way south (after stealing some rapiers for machua ;) ) from reinforcements. Anyways I don't think Carrion is still level 1 at chapter 9. Since he is forced and level 1 he probably gained 2 levels between start of chapter 8 and start of chapter 9. Machua can't really extend her level gap beyond being level nine (which is rather high for just the manster chapters IMO) between 8 and 9 because he is likely fatigued anyways. You say Machua is further beating carrion because of her chances to get scrolled in Manster, I say it doesn't really help her much. Sety scroll is overkill, baldo is ineffective and hezul though admittedly pausible has competition from everyone in Manster.

About your second set of data you posted. Weapon level doesn't rise that fast, it still is 70 swings to B. Silvers swords are rare, you only get ONE in chapter 7 (enemie swordfighter), thats it, the rest have to be bought or taken from trewd, other people might want it too. Carrion doesn't HAVE to be weighed down by steel weapons. His PCC covers his offense issues. 13 skill + leaf support (or selphina at least in chapter 9) means 92% CC with just a lame iron sword/lance. Thats much more reliable than 52% CC.

About Carrion using two weapon types, why should that be considered detrimental towards a unit's utility? Carrion doesn't need a promotion to get 2 range and a second weapon type, but machua does. Using 2 types of weapons should be a positive towards Carrion not a detriment. In your comparisons you give Machua rare weapons (the silver and the rapier) in order to show she is better, how is this different from giving Carrion the elite sword (which he only needs like 15 uses of)?

About the third comparison, it appears that Carrion is now winning, He can now use the weapon triangle effectively (it doesn't mean much, but it is a 5% evade bonus advantage) because his weapon ranks have stopped sucking and can use silvers(i'm not being a hypocrite because he doesn't have to use them to be>machua and silvers are more plentiful in endgame and they are now buyable b/c of shanam's bargain abilities). He doesn't get weighed down by javilin because he has 11.8bld (almost to 12). Machua has 9.8 bld so she is weighed down by hand axes. Ambush is rather useless unless you are Olwen. The 25% chance to kill an enemy Machua has should never happen b/c if you are really relying on that to prevent her from dying you screwed up. I think carrion's evasion due to to higher luck and leaf support negates any advantage that ambush gives to machua (a wash).

Therefore, i think Carrion is actually better offensively and similar defensively to machua which is why he is in high tier not bottom of upper mid.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Brighton

[Don Draper]

I contend Machua is overrated

About favoritism, Carrion not getting the elite sword isn't really that important. Its not like he must hoard it. He only needs a few uses in chapter 9 to gain a couple of levels to be statistically par to the rest of the characters. Then in chapter 10 that arena near the first bastilla practically begging you to use it while the your units that aren't underleveled painstakingly makes its way to Olwen and Fred and the General boss. Gaining him around 7 levels in chapter 8, 9, and 10 isn't really that hard and by then he is a competant fighter and can start contributing positively (whatever that means)

Arena abuse? Yeah, not in this game. Not only is the arena ridiculously hard in this game, but you have to sacrifice a healer in those chapters in order to keep him alive. Which means they're going to be fatigued next chapter, which means you're most likely screwed next chapter. You're going to have to do a bit better then "Carrion can arena abuse to be better then Machua".

About Machua's level lead due to the manster chapters. I don't really see a significant difference between Carrion and Machua. Statwise, in fact at 8 levels lower I think carrion actually is better offensively. His 8 AS lets him double generics (I think), his 4 pcc and leaf support instantly gives him 60%CC on the second attack with iron. Machua has 42% CC after a double. Shiva MIGHT not even need the elite sword at the moment that carrion joins. He does join in after 7 after all and starts near the arena. Its not unlikely he gained a level or two in the arena while leaf and his friends makes their way south (after stealing some rapiers for machua ;) ) from reinforcements. Anyways I don't think Carrion is still level 1 at chapter 9. Since he is forced and level 1 he probably gained 2 levels between start of chapter 8 and start of chapter 9. Machua can't really extend her level gap beyond being level nine (which is rather high for just the manster chapters IMO) between 8 and 9 because he is likely fatigued anyways. You say Machua is further beating carrion because of her chances to get scrolled in Manster, I say it doesn't really help her much. Sety scroll is overkill, baldo is ineffective and hezul though admittedly pausible has competition from everyone in Manster.

He can't double unless he has an Iron Sword (enemies double him if he has a Steel). And he has lol 11 Atk with an Iron Sword, so even a double attack with a critical isn't ORKOing anything. Again, lol arena abuse. With Carrion's bad start, I can see him gaining one level, but not two. Enemy density is very low, and when you have characters like Halvan and Othin running around ORKOing everything, its hard to find time to baby Carrion. Level 9 being high for Manster? In ThunderMan's playthrough, characters like Fergus and Brigton were 13/0, and his Machua was Level 9. Level 9 is the perfect level for her. Sety lets her use heavier weapons and still double, and its not like she's hogging Hezul when you can just trade it to her when she's about to level up.

About your second set of data you posted. Weapon level doesn't rise that fast, it still is 70 swings to B. Silvers swords are rare, you only get ONE in chapter 7 (enemie swordfighter), thats it, the rest have to be bought or taken from trewd, other people might want it too. Carrion doesn't HAVE to be weighed down by steel weapons. His PCC covers his offense issues. 13 skill + leaf support (or selphina at least in chapter 9) means 92% CC with just a lame iron sword/lance. Thats much more reliable than 52% CC.

About Carrion using two weapon types, why should that be considered detrimental towards a unit's utility? Carrion doesn't need a promotion to get 2 range and a second weapon type, but machua does. Using 2 types of weapons should be a positive towards Carrion not a detriment. In your comparisons you give Machua rare weapons (the silver and the rapier) in order to show she is better, how is this different from giving Carrion the elite sword (which he only needs like 15 uses of)?

Machua always doubles, so thats 35 rounds of combat. Easily obtainable, probably by Manster. Silver Swords are rare until Chapter 15 true, but she also has access to the Brave Sword. This is favortism, but she makes better use of it then any other character (Killing enemies before they can attack her). Leaf cannot be assumed to always be in range with the move gap, unless you want to waste Carrion's move advantages. Carrion will be using lances occasionally, and therefore not be able to focus weapon levels on just one type. For example, he may want to use a javelin in some situations. This prevents him from raising his sword rank, which requires lol 110 hits might I remind you. Rapier's aren't rare at all (Chapter 7 says hi), and again, Silver Swords are steal able in Chapter 15.

About the third comparison, it appears that Carrion is now winning, He can now use the weapon triangle effectively (it doesn't mean much, but it is a 5% evade bonus advantage) because his weapon ranks have stopped sucking and can use silvers(i'm not being a hypocrite because he doesn't have to use them to be>machua and silvers are more plentiful in endgame and they are now buyable b/c of shanam's bargain abilities). He doesn't get weighed down by javilin because he has 11.8bld (almost to 12). Machua has 9.8 bld so she is weighed down by hand axes. Ambush is rather useless unless you are Olwen. The 25% chance to kill an enemy Machua has should never happen b/c if you are really relying on that to prevent her from dying you screwed up. I think carrion's evasion due to to higher luck and leaf support negates any advantage that ambush gives to machua (a wash).

It sounds like you are being hypocritical, because how is Carrion going to use a Silver Lance if he never uses lances? I don't see how Ambush is useless at all, either. Killing enemies before they can attack is amazingly useful, and can benefit Machua by an immense amount. She doesn't even need criticals either, as she won't be 20/1 in the final chapter, and those were some of the most extreme enemies I mentioned. She can easily ORKO many generics with a Master Sword. And 10% extra avoid that isn't even going to always happen, isn't going to change that.

The only argument I can see again Machua is that her offence is bad. Her defence certainly isn't bad (Same base/growth/promo gain as Othin). And enemies are terrible enough in this game, that a slightly weaker offence is still enough to ORKO enemies. I need some enemy stats, but showing that Machua can easily ORKO enemies should not be hard (especially after promotion).

16B. Lets take a 15/1 Machua here

Loptos: 28 HP, 6 Def

Hero: 30 HP, 8 Def

Sniper: 26 HP, 6 Def

Swordmaster: 31 HP, 7 Def

Beserker: 37 HP, 10 Def

We'll give her a Kill Sword. 20 Atk, 25 and 75 Critical (81% chance to critical on one of those hits). This one rounds Loptos and Snipers regardless of critical, and one rounds Heroes, Swordmasters and Beserkers with one critical. Killing the toughest enemies on the map 4/5 times is in no way bad. Not to mention she can destroy the those very common Armors (Base level Machua could ORKO 28 HP/16 Def Armors in Chapter 21). If she has D Axes, a 15/1 Machua could actually OHKO them, which combos well with Ambush. Machua is a very versatile character, and I think she's been sandbagged far too much.

EDIT: This just in: Critical multiplies base critical by PCC, not capped critical. Maxed skill Machua with a Rapier has a 90% chance to critical on the second hit. With a Killing Edge, that's now 100%. Therefore, her offence is sufficient regardless, and she is on par defensively with most other characters.

Edited August 30, 2009 by IOS

[Renall]

Machua dropped quite a bit recently, maybe creep her back up a bit? I forget who she's beneath now, it'd be a good idea to make some direct comparisons between them and her or between Carrion and people beneath him (to show he should drop). He seems to be right above Homer, and I could see Homer being better than him.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Trewd down a tier? I'm not sure if I see him as necessarily better than even Kein/Alva, and I'd certainly think there to be a tier break between him and Machuya. Trewd, Kein, and Alva all join with fairly poor performance, and while they're not terrible if raised, they're still definitely below average and don't really offer anything special to make them actually worth using. (inb4 Awareness hype)

[Salad Utensil]

Machua dropped quite a bit recently, maybe creep her back up a bit? I forget who she's beneath now, it'd be a good idea to make some direct comparisons between them and her or between Carrion and people beneath him (to show he should drop). He seems to be right above Homer, and I could see Homer being better than him.

Machua is below Mareeta, the Gato archetypes and a bunch of high end staff users.

Why should Homer move up above Carrion (just curious)?

Well he does have elite to catch up, stave and resire at promotion, hitting on resistence, and 2 range. But Carrion does have better durability if raised and has good stuff going on before promotion.

I can see Trewd below Glade and Fred if only because of better base stats with similar joining times, though since Trewd is unpromoted he gains levels faster and has nice weapon levels, B lets him use armor slayers, and his base speed lets him double generics, his strenth and defense growths are rather lame though, but he has good HP once raised. I'm not sure why awareness is so hyped up anyways. I shudder to think of anyone trying to kill Rinehardt besides Olwen with the holy sword or sleeping him.

[Don Draper]

More on Machua's offence:

Chapter 15:

These enemies suck. 28 HP/6 Def Brigands are the strongest non-boss enemies on the map, and 15/1 Machua still ORKO's them with Iron Axe (20 Atk) without a critical. I actually did find a 31 HP/7 Def Brigand reinforcement, but Iron Blade Machua can take care of him, and still be able to double. Again before critical, and these are the hardest enemies to kill on the map.

Chapter 16A:

Armors: 28 HP/13 Def is the durable armor I can find. Rapier Machua has 23 Atk/90% critical on a counterattack for a ORKO.

Social Knights: 34 HP/9 Def is the most durable social knight I can find. Rapier Machua ORKO's with a critical, which has a 1-(.75*.1) chance of happening or 92.5% chance of happening on one attack.

Arch Knight: 30 HP/13 Def. ORKO with a critical (92.5% chance once again)

Brigands: Iron Axe Machua ORKOs, no critical needed (26 HP/6 Def)

Loldiers: They're loldiers, what do you expect?

Archers: 28 HP/6 Def. Iron Axe ORKO, no critical

Mages: ORKO of course

Ballista: 20 HP/5 Def, so ORKO

These are the toughest enemies on the map, and Machua has no problems with any of them.

Chapter 17A:

Armors: These are actually quite tough, at 45 HP/12 Def being the strongest. Machua just squeezes out an ORKO with a rapier critical.

Loldiers: Lol.

Loptos: 31 HP/7 Def are the toughest I found. If Machua uses an Iron Blade (or Steel Axe if she has D Axes), she'll ORKO them

Pegs: 26 HP/5 Def. She ORKOs with an Iron Axe.

Mageknights: Even the boss only has 42 HP/10 Def, which is low enough for a Machua ORKO with a crit

This is still base level Machua by the way. And she's performing this well offensively.

Lets even take 15/3 Machua (underestimation) in Chapter 21

Armors: 33 HP/16 Def is the toughest I can find. 15/3 Machua with a Rapier has 24 Atk against them, and ORKO's with a critical (92.5% chance, again)

Wyverns: All have 48 HP/12 Def. One critical with the Killer Axe will ORKO them all, and she'll have 100% critical on the counterattack

Really, Machua performs similar offensively to everyone else on the team (even without needing scrolls). And she's equal defensively to somebody like Othin, so she really doesn't deserve to be so low.

Edited August 31, 2009 by IOS

[Salad Utensil]

Arena abuse? Yeah, not in this game. Not only is the arena ridiculously hard in this game, but you have to sacrifice a healer in those chapters in order to keep him alive. Which means they're going to be fatigued next chapter, which means you're most likely screwed next chapter. You're going to have to do a bit better then "Carrion can arena abuse to be better then Machua".

What? the arena in chapter 7 is for Shiva who is rather close to it. Saphy is also close to Shiva so logically Shiva can USE the arena not ABUSE in it while your Fin, Saphy, and Shiva waits for Lifis to steal rapiers from reinforcements and escape into Hannibal's castle. How are the arenas in this game hard, they are basically your only form of income and you can just press B to save your character if they are unlucky? Chapter 10 has 14 deployment spots. You have a total of 16 units that are in uppermid/high/top I don't see why you can't bring both Saphy and Nanna in chapter 10. Most likely Saphy is only at B staves now anyways. She can definitely use some levels by healing characters with physic and heal staves to reach A. Carrion's canto lets him USE the arena, move away, and then lets someone else use it.

He can't double unless he has an Iron Sword (enemies double him if he has a Steel). And he has lol 11 Atk with an Iron Sword, so even a double attack with a critical isn't ORKOing anything. Again, lol arena abuse. With Carrion's bad start, I can see him gaining one level, but not two. Enemy density is very low, and when you have characters like Halvan and Othin running around ORKOing everything, its hard to find time to baby Carrion. Level 9 being high for Manster? In ThunderMan's playthrough, characters like Fergus and Brigton were 13/0, and his Machua was Level 9. Level 9 is the perfect level for her. Sety lets her use heavier weapons and still double, and its not like she's hogging Hezul when you can just trade it to her when she's about to level up..

I don't think he even needs anything beyond an iron sword. Leaf support remember?

Machua always doubles, so thats 35 rounds of combat. Easily obtainable, probably by Manster. Silver Swords are rare until Chapter 15 true, but she also has access to the Brave Sword. This is favortism, but she makes better use of it then any other character (Killing enemies before they can attack her). Leaf cannot be assumed to always be in range with the move gap, unless you want to waste Carrion's move advantages. Carrion will be using lances occasionally, and therefore not be able to focus weapon levels on just one type. For example, he may want to use a javelin in some situations. This prevents him from raising his sword rank, which requires lol 110 hits might I remind you. Rapier's aren't rare at all (Chapter 7 says hi), and again, Silver Swords are steal able in Chapter 15.

I doubt she'll reach B by manster (C easily though). Chapter 4 has like only 8 enemies (before reinforcements) she can even damage without criticalling (which isn't close to being reliable yet) and she isn't even supported by that jerk Brighton :P . And waiting around just to fight reinforcements isn't playing effienciently. In chapter 4X there are 7 soldiers, and 5 mages, and 1 bishop, and a bunch of armours she can't damage, waiting for reinforcements isn't efficent and those mages and 3 of the soldier have very mean counters. Chapter 5 has 2 range mages, a lot of soldiers with bows and javilens, some priests (lol), dark mages that borderline OHKO her, a bunch of premotes that will pwn everyone except for Eyval and Asvel with Grafcaliber. You only have 1 holy water. You also want to get some kills to level up Karin some too. Getting B by manster is pushing it.

Carrion doesn't need great weapon ranks, C prepromotion, and B after is fine for swords (60 hits is easy since apparently Machua can get 70 in 5 chapters). D lances is all he needs for javilens. Pahn needs one build level-up to steal silver swords, you need to get lucky, waiting around an extra 10 turns in chapter 15 when you can just finish it isn't efficient. Kill swords can also be gotton in chapter 15, but again you are purposely waiting around to steal stuff, it might as well be arena abuse. Before chapter 15 you have access to 1 silver and 4 kill swords. Lol at getting the one from shiva in 2X (Eyval at base doesn't damage him when capturing and fin would get doubled)also you just wasted an extra 10 turns just to capture shiva. The swordmaster in chapter 5 is risky since dalshien and brighton have bad hit when capturing. The swordfighter in chapter 7 might be viable though. Shiva also comes with a kill sword

It sounds like you are being hypocritical, because how is Carrion going to use a Silver Lance if he never uses lances? I don't see how Ambush is useless at all, either. Killing enemies before they can attack is amazingly useful, and can benefit Machua by an immense amount. She doesn't even need criticals either, as she won't be 20/1 in the final chapter, and those were some of the most extreme enemies I mentioned. She can easily ORKO many generics with a Master Sword. And 10% extra avoid that isn't even going to always happen, isn't going to change that.

The only argument I can see again Machua is that her offence is bad. Her defence certainly isn't bad (Same base/growth/promo gain as Othin). And enemies are terrible enough in this game, that a slightly weaker offence is still enough to ORKO enemies. I need some enemy stats, but showing that Machua can easily ORKO enemies should not be hard (especially after promotion).

16B. Lets take a 15/1 Machua here

Loptos: 28 HP, 6 Def

Hero: 30 HP, 8 Def

Sniper: 26 HP, 6 Def

Swordmaster: 31 HP, 7 Def

Beserker: 37 HP, 10 Def

We'll give her a Kill Sword. 20 Atk, 25 and 75 Critical (81% chance to critical on one of those hits). This one rounds Loptos and Snipers regardless of critical, and one rounds Heroes, Swordmasters and Beserkers with one critical. Killing the toughest enemies on the map 4/5 times is in no way bad. Not to mention she can destroy the those very common Armors (Base level Machua could ORKO 28 HP/16 Def Armors in Chapter 21). If she has D Axes, a 15/1 Machua could actually OHKO them, which combos well with Ambush. Machua is a very versatile character, and I think she's been sandbagged far too much.

EDIT: This just in: Critical multiplies base critical by PCC, not capped critical. Maxed skill Machua with a Rapier has a 90% chance to critical on the second hit. With a Killing Edge, that's now 100%. Therefore, her offence is sufficient regardless, and she is on par defensively with most other characters.).

You were the one who in the comparison gave Carrion the use of silver lances not me, I'm not a hypocrite .

Ambush relies on a brave weapon to give good durability. The only master sword from the top of my head is the one from Eyrios that you can even feasibly get before late endgame. It has 20 uses and other people might want it, it isn't even that accurate and is. Carrion has 10 more luck at similar levels and sometimes a Leaf support, that is a potential 20 evade/accuracy and can offset enemy leadership. The lopto mages target 2 range, so do the snipers, the heros tend to have magic swords (why to enemies always have better weapons than the player? :( ), and ambush actually hurts her when she is attacked by a Berserker if she doesn't kill, I guess she is good against swordmasters, but they have decent evade (as do heroes), she is good with an armorslayer though on enemy phase against armour knights. Everyones offense is good player phase, which is why Selphina moved out of bottom to lowermid. IDK ambush stopped being useful endgame unless you are Olwen and can target 2 range.

Othin's durability is pretty mediocre, his saving grace is 85% HP growth and good bases FTW (Machua has 4 less HP and 25% less HP growth).

Fine I concede Machua has good offense if you let her have the brave sword, master sword, kill sword, and silver sword and then she is a goddess. Yay... Carrion needs an iron sword and leaf (who is always fielded) to be good.

Giving her a killer is nice and all, but Carrion has 4PCC and with leaf support he can critical with just an iron sword.

But whatever I see your point, Machua isn't THAT bad, I can see her moving above Olwen and Eyrios though. For Mareeta, I'm not sure, if you aren't using Olwen, Mareeta might be the second best candidate for Ambush Manuel.

Edit:To the above post. She isn't THAT low...she is just kind of ok not great. I can definitely see her go above Olwen/Eyrios. I use all characters in upper mid and Xavier, Amalda, and Delmud in my PTs anyways. Darn it IS why are there so many good characters in this game? (except Trewd because he's fail

Edited August 31, 2009 by Brighton

[grandjackal]

Speaking of Glade, I could see him over Dalshien. Dalshien is nothing special without the Sety and Odo scrolls, and ends up a worse tank than Marty anyways (luck can make a big difference, Marty beats his ass in HP, better promo gains). Dalshien past the manster chapters is nothing special, and isn't even that special most of that time anyways. He's got essentially one chapter where he has the worst accuracy on your team, the next he is a serious detriment due to his move problems, and after the cav reinforcements have rapiers. His growths aren't even that good.

Glade on the other hand basically shows up and is decent. Auto-A lances, meaning he could stay on foot for some time to build up sword rank since he has no lance rank to build anymore, can pretty much wipe out the invaders of his joining chapter BY HIMSELF, and on the other hand has decent all around growths. True his bases aren't shiny, but they're good now. However, he does have one shiny advantage-Leadership star! Bring others with leadership (Fin and Nanna are likely to be used, King Sword to account for, Delmud's not too shabby, if you chose Amalda she's a great choice too), a group with leardership can make even the A route Cyrus map a joke.

In fact, I don't know why Dalshien's that high. I mean, he's better off just being below Marty. Marty has earlygame on him, and actually grows into a better tank. Hell, Dalshien's not even that special in Manster.

[Salad Utensil]

Speaking of Glade, I could see him over Dalshien. Dalshien is nothing special without the Sety and Odo scrolls, and ends up a worse tank than Marty anyways (luck can make a big difference, Marty beats his ass in HP, better promo gains). Dalshien past the manster chapters is nothing special, and isn't even that special most of that time anyways. He's got essentially one chapter where he has the worst accuracy on your team, the next he is a serious detriment due to his move problems, and after the cav reinforcements have rapiers. His growths aren't even that good.

Glade on the other hand basically shows up and is decent. Auto-A lances, meaning he could stay on foot for some time to build up sword rank since he has no lance rank to build anymore, can pretty much wipe out the invaders of his joining chapter BY HIMSELF, and on the other hand has decent all around growths. True his bases aren't shiny, but they're good now. However, he does have one shiny advantage-Leadership star! Bring others with leadership (Fin and Nanna are likely to be used, King Sword to account for, Delmud's not too shabby, if you chose Amalda she's a great choice too), a group with leardership can make even the A route Cyrus map a joke.

In fact, I don't know why Dalshien's that high. I mean, he's better off just being below Marty. Marty has earlygame on him, and actually grows into a better tank. Hell, Dalshien's not even that special in Manster.

I agree, but I think if Glade is going up, then Fred should also be above Dalshien, he has better growths than Glade, but one less point in every stat at base. Also Machua, Olwen, Eyrios, and Mareeta>>Trewd. Heck even Fred is better than Trewd, better bases and higher sword rank along with C lances. He even beats his strength growth by 30%

Edited August 31, 2009 by Brighton

[Fei Mao]

With Dalshien in this tier list aren't we assuming he gets the brave axe, I mean he's the only that can capture armors in the indoor Manster chapters. Though I do agree with you that Glade should go above Dalshien.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Jason W.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Actually, Dalshin kinda has the better earlygame situation... you see, he comes in right before you get the Sety scrolls and from then on he has access to it while Marty does not as well as a possible level lead. Never mind the fact that Marty's even more dependent on the Sety scroll than Dalshin is due to the lower growth and base SPD.

Edited August 31, 2009 by ?!

[grandjackal]

Actually, Dalshin kinda has the better earlygame situation... you see, he comes in right before you get the Sety scrolls and from then on he has access to it while Marty does not as well as a possible level lead. Never mind the fact that Marty's even more dependent on the Sety scroll than Dalshin is due to the lower growth and base SPD.

Right right, overreacted again...

...Marty's still the better tank though.

I also still don't see how this would mean Dalshien's better than Glade and Fred.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Renall]

He isn't. Hell, Fred and Glade both have horses. Dalshien can barely go over hills in outdoor maps. And they're not weak to Hammers. Still, he's very useful in Manster...

[Don Draper]

So I'm thinking that Machua>Mareeta is fair. Machua kills even the toughest enemies 92.5% of the time at worst, is useful during the Manster escape chapters, and has existing durability. 15/1 Machua has 32 HP/10 Def, while 12/1 Mareeta (who probably isn't even at this level when Machua is 15/1) has 29 HP/7 Def. Mareeta wins avoid by a mere two, and will only have 6 Bld at this point. Also interesting to note that they have the same strength (11) at these levels, although Mareeta does grow quicker. All of the buildup required to make Mareeta on par doesn't seem worth it to get essentially the same character, only with slightly more offence and quite a bit less durability. For example, 17A Armors for have anywhere from 18-24 Atk. At best, Mareeta is 3RKO'd while Machua is 4RKO'd. At worst, Mareeta is 2RKO'd while Machua is 3RKO'd. Surviving an extra hit>>>Killing certain enemies 7.5% more often.

BTW: I'm saying 7.5%, because that is her critical rate with a Rapier. An Iron Blade or even an Iron Axe will suffice for pretty much everything else, as I mentioned in a previous post.

Edited September 2, 2009 by IOS

[Mekkah]

I moved Machua from here

Galzus

Mareeta

Olwen

Eyrios

Machua

Trewd

to here

Dagda

Leaf

Machua

Linoan

Sara

and then moved Carrion right below Machua

[Fei Mao]

Why am I low on the tier list? My 3 leadership stars mean nothing?

Anyways.. Mekkah did you get a chance to read about moving Tanya up on the tier list? http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9443&st=380

Edited September 3, 2009 by Cyas

[Mekkah]

I moved Tanya up some more.

[Don Draper]

I just feel that some of the other staff users (Salem, Linoan, Sara) should move up higher due to how staves are so broken in this game. Having relatively easy access to A rank staves by midgame seems too valuable to just be put in upper mid. Seeing as Saphy is the best character in the game, and she can only really make use of the high-end staves slightly before somebody like Salem can should be an indicator. For example, Salem reached Level 10 and B rank staves at Chapter 16A in ThunderMan's playthrough, getting A rank staves on promotion. Meanwhile, Saphy reached A rank staves at Chapter 12. A mere 4 extra chapters of staff utility doesn't warrant a two tier gap, imo. Especially when looking at durability (Salem's 25 HP/7 Def at 10/1 compared to Saphy's 16 HP/1 Def at 10/1), Salem's better combat utility (10/1 Salem has 19 Atk w/Wind, which ORKOs absolutely everything on the map in 16A except for one 31 HP/4 Mag Arch Knight). He'll have 8 AS, but 5 levels with Sety will make that 10, allowing him to double every non-boss on the map. Saphy has 20 uses of her only weapon, that Homer/Linoan want to use too until Chapter 22. So Salem has offense/durability over Saphy in exchange for only 4-5 less chapters of warp staff utility.

Edited September 3, 2009 by IOS

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Saphy could've reached it a bit sooner in my playthrough if I had used repair on Light Sword though and I did spam Physic with Salem.

[Don Draper]

It only would of made a difference of one chapter though, wouldn't it have? Chapter 11/11x aren't exactly in dire need of a warp staff strategy (it does help, but you only have to many warp staves...). You Psychic spammed a bit with Saphy as well, and I recall times when you could of healed a character with Salem, and choose not to. Regardless, the gap between Saphy/Salem is way too large considering Salem's non-staff related advantages, and only few chapters she has over Salem where she can use A rank staves

[Mekkah]

Sara/Linoan to bottom of High then? Or even higher? Salem was bound to raise anyway.

[Don Draper]

I think bottom of High is fair for the other two, and perhaps top of high for Salem? I don't know about Sleuf, he comes right when Salem is getting A rank staves. However, he has no offence/defence unlike Salem.

[Salad Utensil]

I think bottom of High is fair for the other two, and perhaps top of high for Salem? I don't know about Sleuf, he comes right when Salem is getting A rank staves. However, he has no offence/defence unlike Salem.

Salem also has around the same durability as Homeros, which is good for a mage I guess, I did an analysis a bunch of posts back.

About Trewd, I feel like he is too high in the list. Does anyone else agree? I did a comparison between him and Fred a while ago...the problem with him is he has Machua level offense, but only 1PCC and completely relies on rarer weapons like kill, silvers, armourslayers just to kill generics.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Brighton