Class Frustration

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Anomalocaris said:

While removing gender-locks would be a far more preferable solution (maybe a purchaseable upgrade from the Tactics Instructor?), I just wanna point out that even if War Cleric were the only female Gauntlet class you could still make it work; just make it so that while male units in War Monk only learn a few new abilities and Combat Arts, female units in War Cleric learn a whole bunch of them at each interval, including all three tiers of Gauntlet Proficiency and other things related to the Brawler/Grappler/War Master line.

It would be pretty exaggerated, but class learnsets are personalized for each unit and there is precedent for learning more than one ability/CA at a Class level-up.

I suppose that's possible, yeah. You could just cram a ton of abilities and combat arts into one class for War Cleric. Seems a bit forced, but I guess it would work. Honestly feels like a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist, there's no reason for Brawler and Grappler to be male only aside from them being male only in Three Houses, and it was dumb then too.

[Anomalocaris]

3 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I suppose that's possible, yeah. You could just cram a ton of abilities and combat arts into one class for War Cleric. Seems a bit forced, but I guess it would work. Honestly feels like a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist, there's no reason for Brawler and Grappler to be male only aside from them being male only in Three Houses, and it was dumb then too.

Yeah, it's even more dumb here I think, since you're locking entire gameplay styles behind gender-locks, not just a bunch of numbers and stats.

The more I think about it, the more I think the best solution is an update that adds a new node to the Tactics Instructor that makes gender-locked classes available on the unit. Something like "transcend the gender barrier and learn how to ride a pegasus/cast fancy magic as a male, or punch stuff/cast dark magic as a female" lol.

I wouldn't mind having to spend gold at the Tactics Instructor for it, that'd turn it from a pointless, absolute restriction into just unlocking new classes, at least.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Anomalocaris

[ZanaLyrander]

14 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

Yeah, it's even more dumb here I think, since you're locking entire gameplay styles behind gender-locks, not just a bunch of numbers and stats.

The more I think about it, the more I think the best solution is an update that adds a new node to the Tactics Instructor that makes gender-locked classes available on the unit. Something like "transcend the gender barrier and learn how to ride a pegasus/cast fancy magic as a male, or punch stuff/cast dark magic as a female" lol.

I wouldn't mind having to spend gold at the Tactics Instructor for it, that'd turn it from a pointless, absolute restriction into just unlocking new classes, at least.

I remember finding the Dark Bishop so hilarious in Three Houses, just in terms of how stupid it was conceptually. Like, it's a class that specializes in Dark Magic, the counterpart to the Black Magic focused Warlock. Cool. And it's male only. And I'm looking at the characters who learn Dark Magic and going "I see a problem". The characters who learn Dark Magic in Three Houses are Edelgard, Hubert, Lysithea, and Hapi (technically also Jeritza, but he learns literally one Dark Magic spell so I'm not counting him). So I'm looking at this class and I'm like "so... you made a class just for Hubert?"

Seriously, the fact that Dark Mage and Dark Bishop are male only classes when the vast majority of Dark Magic users are female is just hilariously poor planning.

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I remember finding the Dark Bishop so hilarious in Three Houses, just in terms of how stupid it was conceptually. Like, it's a class that specializes in Dark Magic, the counterpart to the Black Magic focused Warlock. Cool. And it's male only. And I'm looking at the characters who learn Dark Magic and going "I see a problem". The characters who learn Dark Magic in Three Houses are Edelgard, Hubert, Lysithea, and Hapi (technically also Jeritza, but he learns literally one Dark Magic spell so I'm not counting him). So I'm looking at this class and I'm like "so... you made a class just for Hubert?"

Seriously, the fact that Dark Mage and Dark Bishop are male only classes when the vast majority of Dark Magic users are female is just hilariously poor planning.

At least female magic users had options. Males were screwed.

Hubert and Hanneman had to transition to Dark Knight with no bridge class. Linhardt's options were... remain in a 4 mov advanced class and spam physic, or stay on the bench. Because let's not even entertain the notion of a healer using Holy Knight in Three Houses.

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

At least female magic users had options. Males were screwed.

Hubert and Hanneman had to transition to Dark Knight with no bridge class. Linhardt's options were... remain in a 4 mov advanced class and spam physic, or stay on the bench. Because let's not even entertain the notion of a healer using Holy Knight in Three Houses.

Indeed. Making Dark Mage an advanced class and Dark Bishop a master class in Three Hopes was a very smart decision, so at least male magic users have options for staying pure magic users. It's still not terribly well suited to most male magic users unless your name is Hubert, but it's an improvement over the Three Houses situation at very least.

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Indeed. Making Dark Mage an advanced class and Dark Bishop a master class in Three Hopes was a very smart decision, so at least male magic users have options for staying pure magic users. It's still not terribly well suited to most male magic users unless your name is Hubert, but it's an improvement over the Three Houses situation at very least.

It's not ideal for Linhardt in the sense that half of the class skills have no benefit for him, but in fairness, it's not like Gremory skills are really helping either. Cooldown reduction on spells without cost reduction has little benefit until you stack your weapon's durability high.

 

As the only native Dark Mage in 2 of 3 routes, Linhardt at least has a unique role at the very least. It's not perfect, but it is effective.

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

It's not ideal for Linhardt in the sense that half of the class skills have no benefit for him, but in fairness, it's not like Gremory skills are really helping either. Cooldown reduction on spells without cost reduction has little benefit until you stack your weapon's durability high.

 

As the only native Dark Mage in 2 of 3 routes, Linhardt at least has a unique role at the very least. It's not perfect, but it is effective.

I suppose that's fair. At this point in the game I'm on my fifth run so I've upgraded my weapons so high that running out of durability isn't really a concern, but I can definitely see how that'd be an issue. Still, being able to spam Excalibur more often would be nice, especially since I frequently have Linhardt running Physic as his other spell, since the Black Eagles don't really have another healer.

[ZanaLyrander]

Oh wow, on the subject from a while back of them quietly deleting the Hero class from the game, they apparently did not delete the generic hero model that they used for enemy Heroes in Three Houses. I just found one standing around watching the recruits train in camp.

Edited July 8, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[B.Leu]

I find it baffling that they didn't put War Monk/Cleric or Dark Flier, when they put Trickster. I can see why they didn't put Valkyrie, we already got Holy/Dark/Death Knight, it would have been redundant, but War Monk/Cleric, Fist/Axe & Magic, and Dark Flier, Lance & Magic? Come now, they could have also put Malig Knight, Axe & Magic, so the boys don't get left behind.
Genderlocked classes is a mistake.

Sometimes, I do find the fact that every classes can only use one type of weapon a bit of an headache.

[ZanaLyrander]

2 hours ago, B.Leu said:

I find it baffling that they didn't put War Monk/Cleric or Dark Flier, when they put Trickster. I can see why they didn't put Valkyrie, we already got Holy/Dark/Death Knight, it would have been redundant, but War Monk/Cleric, Fist/Axe & Magic, and Dark Flier, Lance & Magic? Come now, they could have also put Malig Knight, Axe & Magic, so the boys don't get left behind.
Genderlocked classes is a mistake.

Sometimes, I do find the fact that every classes can only use one type of weapon a bit of an headache.

Well, Valkyrie would only be redundant if it was a lance class. Most people have suggested making it a mounted tome class, which would be very nice to have given the low mobility of most tome classes. Each gender currently only has one master class that uses tomes, so it'd be nice to have more options, though I really hope Valkyrie isn't female only again. As you say, genderlocked classes is a dumb idea.

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Well, Valkyrie would only be redundant if it was a lance class. Most people have suggested making it a mounted tome class, which would be very nice to have given the low mobility of most tome classes. Each gender currently only has one master class that uses tomes, so it'd be nice to have more options, though I really hope Valkyrie isn't female only again. As you say, genderlocked classes is a dumb idea.

Obviously, calling it Valkyrie is begging for the genderlock. Which is why I suggest bringing in the Strategist class instead. Mostly the same thing. But it also has mounted light mage connotations per Fates, which is even more helpful in fixing the class system. Bishop is a unique moveset that needs a transition even more than Warlock does.

[ZanaLyrander]

2 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Obviously, calling it Valkyrie is begging for the genderlock. Which is why I suggest bringing in the Strategist class instead. Mostly the same thing. But it also has mounted light mage connotations per Fates, which is even more helpful in fixing the class system. Bishop is a unique moveset that needs a transition even more than Warlock does.

That'd be very nice. Maybe replace or at least supplement Dark Flier with Malig Knight while we're at it since Pegasi don't like guys for some reason. That'd be a good way to have a magic axe class and a magic flying class at the same time. Though I admit, my concern with Dark Flier and Malig Knight would be the same as your concern with War Monk: if you have a choice between Wyvern Lord/Falcon Knight and 'Wyvern Lord/Falcon Knight with magic', why would you ever use the former? I'd still love to have them, but they might make some existing classes a bit redundant.

Personally, I think the simplest solution would be allowing every class to use magic. Why does changing your equipment cause you to forget how to cast spells anyway? That makes no sense.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, ZanaLyrander said:

That'd be very nice. Maybe replace or at least supplement Dark Flier with Malig Knight while we're at it since Pegasi don't like guys for some reason. That'd be a good way to have a magic axe class and a magic flying class at the same time. Though I admit, my concern with Dark Flier and Malig Knight would be the same as your concern with War Monk: if you have a choice between Wyvern Lord/Falcon Knight and 'Wyvern Lord/Falcon Knight with magic', why would you ever use the former? I'd still love to have them, but they might make some existing classes a bit redundant.

Personally, I think the simplest solution would be allowing every class to use magic. Why does changing your equipment cause you to forget how to cast spells anyway? That makes no sense.

Err, I have to say I don't like this fix. Sure, if you put Malig Knight in tomes to have it replace Dark Flier, then it's a great fill in. If you put it in axes to have a magical axe, you failed to fix another problem with the class system. That being that axe characters have NO unmounted master class. All axe wielders save for Seteth lose their personal outfits in Master tier, and it's really unfortunate. 

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Err, I have to say I don't like this fix. Sure, if you put Malig Knight in tomes to have it replace Dark Flier, then it's a great fill in. If you put it in axes to have a magical axe, you failed to fix another problem with the class system. That being that axe characters have NO unmounted master class. All axe wielders save for Seteth lose their personal outfits in Master tier, and it's really unfortunate. 

Yeah, a Berserker class would be a nice addition to give axe wielders an unmounted axe master class. I personally don't care quite as much about the personal outfits, that's always been a problem with lances even in Three Houses, and it was a problem for any female axe wielder in Three Houses too. It's annoying, but purely cosmetic.

Seriously though, I think they could save themselves a ton of work by just adding a new option at the Tactics Instructor to allow a character to use magic with any class. No need for Dark Flier/Malig Knight at that point, just use Falcon Knight/Wyvern Lord instead. Strategist would still be useful as a mounted tome class, but War Monk/War Cleric wouldn't be needed anymore, just use War Master or Berserker instead.

[Fabulously Olivier]

4 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Yeah, a Berserker class would be a nice addition to give axe wielders an unmounted axe master class. I personally don't care quite as much about the personal outfits, that's always been a problem with lances even in Three Houses, and it was a problem for any female axe wielder in Three Houses too. It's annoying, but purely cosmetic.

Seriously though, I think they could save themselves a ton of work by just adding a new option at the Tactics Instructor to allow a character to use magic with any class. No need for Dark Flier/Malig Knight at that point, just use Falcon Knight/Wyvern Lord instead. Strategist would still be useful as a mounted tome class, but War Monk/War Cleric wouldn't be needed anymore, just use War Master or Berserker instead.

Some of us DO care about personal outfits, and they ARE an issue for us. Which is not helped by most of the basic class outfits for Three Houeses being the worst they have EVER been. Seriously, Bow Knight, Dark Knight, and Assassin are the only ones that look any good.

 

Also, it isn't equally an issue for lances. Every native lance user aside from Dimitri is designed to keep their oufits on cavalry classes.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[ZanaLyrander]

12 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Some of us DO care about personal outfits, and they ARE an issue for us. Which is not helped by most of the basic class outfits for Three Houeses being the worst they have EVER been. Seriously, Bow Knight, Dark Knight, and Assassin are the only ones that look any good.

 

Also, it isn't equally an issue for lances. Every native lance user aside from Dimitri is designed to keep their oufits on cavalry classes.

Fair enough, I don't mean to downplay your concern, even if it's less of a concern to me personally. Honestly, I think a better solution would be to allow every character to keep their personal outfit on every class, mounted or not, preferred class or not. As you say, a bunch of lance users can do so already, it's clearly possible, the fact that they all can't is just lazy. I will concede that it might be harder for the mounted classes, especially for those whose personal outfit includes a skirt. But there are plenty who don't have that problem and still can't keep their personal outfit.

Edited July 8, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, ZanaLyrander said:

Fair enough, I don't mean to downplay your concern, even if it's less of a concern to me personally. Honestly, I think a better solution would be to allow every character to keep their personal outfit on every class, mounted or not, preferred class or not. As you say, a bunch of lance users can do so already, it's clearly possible, the fact that they all can't is just lazy.

The capability exists. People have modded gender lock out, and we see things like Ignatz on a pegasus in his personal outfit.

 

It's not usually a work flow issue. It's usually there to prevent clipping issues. Having to design each outfit to avoid clipping issues on multiple kinds of mounts is very difficult and would basically boil down to "no long coats, no butt capes, no dresses", so it does make sense to just put in a blanket "infantry character outfits don't carry over" code.

[ZanaLyrander]

8 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The capability exists. People have modded gender lock out, and we see things like Ignatz on a pegasus in his personal outfit.

 

It's not usually a work flow issue. It's usually there to prevent clipping issues. Having to design each outfit to avoid clipping issues on multiple kinds of mounts is very difficult and would basically boil down to "no long coats, no butt capes, no dresses", so it does make sense to just put in a blanket "infantry character outfits don't carry over" code.

Yeah, that makes sense... except at the same time they have clearly found ways around that. When you encounter Hilda on routes other than GW, she's in her personal outfit on a wyvern. I admit, her outfit is easier to avoid those clipping issues with than, for example, Dorothea, I doubt that long of a skirt could possibly work on a mounted unit. But it's weird that when Hilda is on your team, she's stuck with the default Wyvern Lord outfit. I acknowledge that there would be significant difficulties for many personal outfits on mounts. All I'm saying is that there are plenty whose personal outfits wouldn't have the problem, yet still aren't allowed to keep their personal outfits when mounted. Shez's outfit would hardly have clipping issues on a mount, yet they still can't retain it (I'd probably still stick with the standard Dark Knight outfit anyway because it looks badass, but it'd be nice to have the option).

Edited July 8, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Yeah, that makes sense... except at the same time they have clearly found ways around that. When you encounter Hilda on routes other than GW, she's in her personal outfit on a wyvern. I admit, her outfit is easier to avoid those clipping issues with than, for example, Dorothea, I doubt that long of a skirt could possibly work on a mounted unit. But it's weird that when Hilda is on your team, she's stuck with the default Wyvern Lord outfit. I acknowledge that there would be significant difficulties for many personal outfits on mounts. All I'm saying is that there are plenty whose personal outfits wouldn't have the problem, yet still aren't allowed to keep their personal outfits when mounted. Shez's outfit would hardly have clipping issues on a mount, yet they still can't retain it (I'd probably still stick with the standard Dark Knight outfit anyway because it looks badass, but it'd be nice to have the option).

Bear in mind that enemies don't use full movesets, and you are likely to scrutinize their models far less than the model you are playing.

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Bear in mind that enemies don't use full movesets, and you are likely to scrutinize their models far less than the model you are playing.

Fair enough. But you've gotta admit there's no excuse for Shez, Dedue, Ignatz, Raphael... I could go on, but you get the picture, there are plenty of personal outfits that wouldn't have any clipping issues that still aren't allowed to retain their personal outfits on a mount.

[ciphertul]

40 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

No need for Dark Flier/Malig Knight at that point, just use Falcon Knight/Wyvern Lord instead.

This would only be true if they where just Class plus magic. A dark flier if added should be tome flying and before anyone brings up tomes beat bows remember dancer wield swords and beat tomes. They could make them with Armorbuster or something,

[ZanaLyrander]

5 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

This would only be true if they where just Class plus magic. A dark flier if added should be tome flying and before anyone brings up tomes beat bows remember dancer wield swords and beat tomes. They could make them with Armorbuster or something,

Fair, a flying tome class would be nice. Might make Valkyrie or Strategist or whatever they end up naming it a bit redundant, but I suppose if you're worried about archers a standard cavalry tome class might still be useful. I still feel like allowing spellcasting with every class would be extremely helpful. Being unable to cast the spells you've learned just because you've swapped equipment is one of those things we just kinda ceased to question, but it doesn't really make much sense. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Fair, a flying tome class would be nice. Might make Valkyrie or Strategist or whatever they end up naming it a bit redundant, but I suppose if you're worried about archers a standard cavalry tome class might still be useful. I still feel like allowing spellcasting with every class would be extremely helpful. Being unable to cast the spells you've learned just because you've swapped equipment is one of those things we just kinda ceased to question, but it doesn't really make much sense. 

I don't think redundancy is an issue. Because both Warlock and Bishop are Advanced locked movesets.

 

Bishop -> Strategist

Warlock -> Dark Flier/Malig Knight.

 

Completely different movesets.

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I don't think redundancy is an issue. Because both Warlock and Bishop are Advanced locked movesets.

 

Bishop -> Strategist

Warlock -> Dark Flier/Malig Knight.

 

Completely different movesets.

That's a solid point, we don't consider Trickster, Dancer, and Mortal Savant redundant despite all of them being magic sword classes, because the way they fight is completely different. And as you say, the Bishop and Warlock have their own movesets that don't have a master class equivalent, so this would be the perfect way to fix that issue.