Estimating Hidden Numbers That Shouldn't be Hidden

[Burklight]

I took a stab at calculating some of the damage modifiers on a handful of skills that don't list them, as well as critical chance and critical multipliers. I'll list my conclusions first and post the data below for anyone who wants to come to different conclusions than I did, or try to duplicate results for better estimations.

It's probably also worth noting that I used normal hits to calculate the skill modifiers. I don't fully understand how crits work, and it's likely that crit damage is currently bugged. The multipliers do not line up with crit damage the way you would expect them to, but it's close.

These are estimations based off a fairly low sample size. Mileage may vary.

Base Critical Chance: 10-15%

Critical Boost (passive skill): +10%

Critical Boost lv3 (weapon skill): +10%

Base Crit Multiplier: *1.6

Crit Multiplier with Apex: *1.5 This is not a typo, I think it's bugged. Best guess is it's using a flag under the hood for Apex abilities and is setting it backwards

Big Game Hunter: *1.25-1.3

Wild Abandon: *1.5

Undaunted: *1.5

Spd/Def/Lck/etc Factor 3(Weapon Skill): * (1 + (Stat * 0.25) )

 

 

Spoiler

 

I used Fighter Hilda, because she has access to almost all damage skills and doesn't have a crest that would make getting results harder (ie Felix)

All testing was done doing one normal attack vs the fighter in training mode to eliminate weapon triangle problems. I used a +0 Silver Axe with no abilities for the baseline. Tests with weapon abilities were obviously also done with a +0 Silver Axe.

Hilda's Stats:

Level	Str	Mag	Dex	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Cha
72	60	34	44	68	46	52	34	59

 

Baseline		Boost Critical + Boost Critical 3		Boost Critical + Apex Axe		Boost Critical + Apex Axe + Boost Critical 3		Big Game Hunter		Wild Abandon		Undaunted		Defense Factor 3 with 52 def		Defense Factor 3 with 80 def
Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical	Normal	Critical
130	216	132	209	133	205	131	191	177	263	197	325	204	317	148	237	155	250
133	217	132	216	128	194	135	200	174	261	190	326	194	302	150	237	166	255
136	206	128	209	129	201	124	190	175	262	191		194		146	241	168	263
133		126	200	132	200	127	200	174	260	199		194		153		169	261
132		128	210	127	201	131	204	169	265	194		196		150		156	264
135		129	214	135	191	133	190	167		188		202		146		168
135		136	201	127	202	125	203	173		198		192		153		167
129		127	210	128		131	192	166		201		198		154		168
128		131		132		129	204	175		202		192		145		161
125		126		135		131	197	172		187		190		149		167
134		129		125		135		174		198		190		155		155
126		126		134		135		170		188		191				156
125		126		135		136		163		203		203				163
136		133		128		129		173		198		187
127		126		126		135		165				200
128		127		129		131		172				200
131		134		130		131		177				193
		131		129		127		166
		131		128		128		167
		134		131		136		166
		134		130				171
		131		132				163
		135		132
														Stat / 4 %?
Crit 3/20				Crit 7/30		Crit 10/30		BGH +25 - 30%		WA + 50%		Undaunted 50%		50 def > 13		80 def > 20
Base crit chance	15%				23% (25)		33 (35)
base crit multi	160%				150%?

 

 

[VincentASM]

Nice work. Huh, that's pretty significant if Apex abilities are bugged.

When I have time, I should check with Shez.

[Burklight]

4 hours ago, VincentASM said:

Nice work. Huh, that's pretty significant if Apex abilities are bugged.

When I have time, I should check with Shez.

Thanks. I'd be very interested if others could reproduce any of this. Particularly the Apex numbers that look very suspicious. 

I'm probably curious enough at this point to estimate more weapon abilities and how they compare to maxed out relic weapons. Seems entirely possible that 520 attack with +50-60% increased damage would end up hitting harder than 570-580.

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Burklight said:

Thanks. I'd be very interested if others could reproduce any of this. Particularly the Apex numbers that look very suspicious. 

I'm probably curious enough at this point to estimate more weapon abilities and how they compare to maxed out relic weapons. Seems entirely possible that 520 attack with +50-60% increased damage would end up hitting harder than 570-580.

I'd also be curious to know if it's all Apex abilities or just Apex Axe. If they're all broken I'd be surprised that made it through testing.

Great work on this though, it's nice to have any data on these sorts of values, it's a shame you have to do this sort of investigation rather than have the values listed in the ability descriptions (though that admittedly still wouldn't catch a bug like what your describing with the Apex abilities).

[Stellar12]

I wanted to thank you as well!

While I didn't really replicate your testing, when I read this I hopped into mock battle with SM!Felix, equipped with nothing but boost Critical and then boost Critical + Apex Sword. I also attached the Myrm and a single regular attack. So pretty consistently he was doing ~350 on a crit w/o Apex Sword and then ~300 with Apex Sword. (The numbers aren't exact.) So this seems to match your findings.

As an aside, I then equipped boost Critical + Luna, just to see how the numbers changed, and I was getting 3000 with a crit! I thought Luna would be good but that's a shit ton.

[Burklight]

59 minutes ago, Stellar12 said:

I wanted to thank you as well!

While I didn't really replicate your testing, when I read this I hopped into mock battle with SM!Felix, equipped with nothing but boost Critical and then boost Critical + Apex Sword. I also attached the Myrm and a single regular attack. So pretty consistently he was doing ~350 on a crit w/o Apex Sword and then ~300 with Apex Sword. (The numbers aren't exact.) So this seems to match your findings.

As an aside, I then equipped boost Critical + Luna, just to see how the numbers changed, and I was getting 3000 with a crit! I thought Luna would be good but that's a shit ton.

I'm happy at least one other person was able to confirm my Apex findings with another weapon type. Probably safe to assume it's bugged across the board. I guess on he plus side, no one should feel even remotely pressured to use the preferred class's weapon type until they fix it.

I was originally intending to look into Luna as well, but I'm not entirely sure how without knowing how much defense reduces damage to begin with. You could probably figure out how hard luck scales it in a similar way that I looked into the Factor weapon abilities (saved the game, used def+5x4 and equipped a silver shield, do the test, reset the game), but I'm not sure how to baseline it. Maybe assume 0 luck is the same as not having Luna, reset a character's level and then see what 5-10 luck looks like? 

[Burklight]

My attempt at Luna:

I'll start by saying I'm probably not smart enough to figure this out with the amount of time I'm willing to spend on it, but this is a passable starting point.

What I'm comfortable assuming is that defense works as a percentage, and Luna can make that percentage go negative giving massive multipliers. It's clearly exponential....

Spoiler

 

	Str	Mag	Dex	Spd	Lck	Def	Res	Cha
Fighter Edelgard	17	10	10	9	8	9	9	11
vs 7 defense fighter
Baseline with Rusted Axe		Luna
Normal		8	10	13	15	20	25	30	35	40	45	50	76
24		29	30	31	32	36	39	47	50	60	74	88	178
26		29	31	33	33	36	42	44	51	60	75	94	189
26		29	31	32	34	36	40	46	53	57	69	90	178
25		28	29	32	33	37	39	46	51	58	69	88	189
26		28	30	31	33	37	40	45	50	58	73	93	185
27		30	31	32	33	37	41	46	51	60	71	88	188
26		29	31	33	33	35	40	47	52	63	71	89	184
26		30	29	30	34	35	41	46	53	58	72	90	185
		29	30	32	33	34	40	44	53	60	72	88	182
		29	30.22222222	31.77777778	33.11111111	35.88888889	40.22222222	45.66666667	51.55555556	59.33333333	71.77777778	89.77777778	184.2222222

 

The equation that best fits this dataset according to the graphing calculator I used is:  

Spoiler

 

This seems like it should be close to the right answer, given that x = luck, 7 is the defense value, 34 is str*2, and .035 is pretty close to str/500. This function doesn't hold up when you start comparing it to numbers with actual attack values though, so that would need to be known to get closer than this. I think I've spent enough time on this for one night.

[Stellar12]

I'm definitely not a math person, but enemy def going into negative sounds bonkers. I mean when I was trying it on Felix it was essentially multiplying his crits by 10.

Both Ferdinand and Caspar get Luna as well on SB. I think Ferdinand could make great use of it as a War Master with the Vajra Mushti. Meanwhile Claude and Hilda get it on GW and Hilda also has access to Undaunted 😮

[Burklight]

7 minutes ago, Stellar12 said:

I'm definitely not a math person, but enemy def going into negative sounds bonkers. I mean when I was trying it on Felix it was essentially multiplying his crits by 10.

Both Ferdinand and Caspar get Luna as well on SB. I think Ferdinand could make great use of it as a War Master with the Vajra Mushti. Meanwhile Claude and Hilda get it on GW and Hilda also has access to Undaunted 😮

Well, it's less likely to go negative when you're fighting enemies that are actually close to your level. The fighter in the training ground only has 7. When you start seeing enemies with defenses values high enough that you cant get get 10-15x their defense value in luck, it may look different than what happened in the training ground. 

Btw, how much luck did your Felix have? I'm guessing 85~105?

[Stellar12]

Oh no yeah that makes sense. The more defense enemy units have the more they have to lose. Here's my Felix's stat line:

Lvl 73
Hp 8334
Str 77
Mag 33
Dex 67
Spd 80
Lck 70
Def 37
Res 34
Cha 39

Heres another question. Probably a stupid one. Annette gets Luna and she gets Dual Onslaught. I wonder whether those interact?

[Burklight]

4 hours ago, Stellar12 said:

Oh no yeah that makes sense. The more defense enemy units have the more they have to lose. Here's my Felix's stat line:

Lvl 73
Hp 8334
Str 77
Mag 33
Dex 67
Spd 80
Lck 70
Def 37
Res 34
Cha 39

Heres another question. Probably a stupid one. Annette gets Luna and she gets Dual Onslaught. I wonder whether those interact?

I have no idea how Dual Onslaught works. I'm also fairly curious how Luna interacts with stuff like Proficient Witstrike that says "Calculates damage for all attacks using the unit's Mag stat." Does that just mean it's still a physical attack but calculates it with your magic? It'd be pretty funny if Lythesia ends up being one of the better physical attackers.

[Stellar12]

I'll try it out once I get Luna on Annie.

From what I understand (I got this from a comments discussion on youtube) Proficient Witstrike and Luna don't stack 😕 And in fact Lysithea seems to do MORE damage with Luna than with Witstrike. I feel like she's playing her own whole ass game though XD

[Archeleon]

Can unfortunately confirm that Apex skills are currently reducing critical damage by 10%. Tested Sword and Axe so far and they both result in reductions of 10%. Even if they weren't bugged and indeed were a 10% increase it doesn't seem they are worthwhile using.

Can also confirm Wild Abandon multiplier of 1.5.

Lifeforce doubles damage of Arts/Spells.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Archeleon

[Burklight]

16 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Can also confirm Wild Abandon multiplier and that Lifeforce doubles damage of Arts/Spells.

Were you using both at the same time, or individually? I didn't look at Lifeforce, but Wild Abandon pretty clearly only bumps normal attacks by 50%. It would be very interesting if it's 100% for combat arts. That would imply to me that there's some kind of final damage multiplier on combat arts.

[Archeleon]

11 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Were you using both at the same time, or individually? I didn't look at Lifeforce, but Wild Abandon pretty clearly only bumps normal attacks by 50%. It would be very interesting if it's 100% for combat arts. That would imply to me that there's some kind of final damage multiplier on combat arts.

Just realized how confusing that can look, will edit for clarification.

[Burklight]

35 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Just realized how confusing that can look, will edit for clarification.

Ok yeah, that makes much more sense. 

Also, do you remember what the cap was on Absorb abilities? I remember looking at it a few weeks ago and iirc it was 20 or 30.

[Archeleon]

1 hour ago, Burklight said:

Ok yeah, that makes much more sense. 

Also, do you remember what the cap was on Absorb abilities? I remember looking at it a few weeks ago and iirc it was 20 or 30.

Good thing you asked as it prompted further testing which led me to find that the stat boost is not static. First of all, there is a cap of 10 "stacks" of stat gain. However, how much stat is gained per stack is determined by the user's base stat (it ignores stat boosting items and skills). It seems to take 50% of the stat, rounded down and then tries to divide by 10. Some stacks will give you more stats than others but ultimately you get 50% at 10 "stacks".

Some numbers below:

Hubert - 63 Mag - Absorb Mag

Kill 1 +3(3), Kill 2 +3(6), Kill 3 +3(9), Kill 4 +3(12), Kill 5 +3(15), Kill 6 +3(18), Kill 7 +4(22), Kill 8 +3(25), Kill 9 +3(28), Kill 10 +3(31)

Linhardt - 49 Res - Absorb Res

Kill 1 +2(2), Kill 2 +2(4), Kill 3 +3(7), Kill 4 +2(9), Kill 5 +3(12), Kill 6 +2(14), Kill 7 +3(17), Kill 8 +2(19), Kill 9 +3(22), Kill 10 +2(24)

Hubert - 94 Mag - Absorb Mag

Kill 1 +4(4), Kill 2 +5(9), Kill 3 +5(14), Kill 4 +4(18), Kill 5 +5(23), Kill 6 +5(28), Kill 7 +4(32), Kill 8 +5(37), Kill 9 +5(42), Kill 10 +5(47)

 

[Burklight]

32 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Good thing you asked as it prompted further testing which led me to find that the stat boost is not static. First of all, there is a cap of 10 "stacks" of stat gain. However, how much stat is gained per stack is determined by the user's base stat (it ignores stat boosting items and skills). It seems to take 50% of the stat, rounded down and then tries to divide by 10. Some stacks will give you more stats than others but ultimately you get 50% at 10 "stacks".

Some numbers below:

Hubert - 63 Mag - Absorb Mag

Kill 1 +3(3), Kill 2 +3(6), Kill 3 +3(9), Kill 4 +3(12), Kill 5 +3(15), Kill 6 +3(18), Kill 7 +4(22), Kill 8 +3(25), Kill 9 +3(28), Kill 10 +3(31)

Linhardt - 49 Res - Absorb Res

Kill 1 +2(2), Kill 2 +2(4), Kill 3 +3(7), Kill 4 +2(9), Kill 5 +3(12), Kill 6 +2(14), Kill 7 +3(17), Kill 8 +2(19), Kill 9 +3(22), Kill 10 +2(24)

Hubert - 94 Mag - Absorb Mag

Kill 1 +4(4), Kill 2 +5(9), Kill 3 +5(14), Kill 4 +4(18), Kill 5 +5(23), Kill 6 +5(28), Kill 7 +4(32), Kill 8 +5(37), Kill 9 +5(42), Kill 10 +5(47)

 

That's an interesting find. Jokes on me for not looking at it harder at the time. Most of the absorb abilities are probably crap, but I can see Str/Mag and to a lesser extent Dex being a pretty big deal for the characters who get them.

[Archeleon]

30 minutes ago, Burklight said:

That's an interesting find. Jokes on me for not looking at it harder at the time. Most of the absorb abilities are probably crap, but I can see Str/Mag and to a lesser extent Dex being a pretty big deal for the characters who get them.

They can be fairly strong depending on skill availability. For example a character with naturally high Def with access to Glowing Ember could make offensive use out of Absorb Def.

The question here is whether or not it would be worthwhile using in a variety of scenarios. In large maps with a lot of objectives you may be able to reach the cap (absolute bonus would be 60 to a stat with unlocked caps) half way through the map. Smaller maps you may never see the cap. Realistically I think you would reach at least 5 stacks at a reasonable point which could net 30 bonus stat. That is nothing to scoff at.

[Archeleon]

On 7/9/2022 at 8:08 PM, Burklight said:

I have no idea how Dual Onslaught works. I'm also fairly curious how Luna interacts with stuff like Proficient Witstrike that says "Calculates damage for all attacks using the unit's Mag stat." Does that just mean it's still a physical attack but calculates it with your magic? It'd be pretty funny if Lythesia ends up being one of the better physical attackers.

Not sure if you found the information yet but Dual Onslaught takes the user's Str and Mag stat, adds them and then uses it to calculate damage. 

My Edelgard currently has 102 Str and 84 Mag. 

While equipped with an Axe her attacks, Arts and Actions calculate damage using her 102 Str (would apply to all other weapons except Tome) and targeting Def.

Dual Onslaught makes it so that her 84 Mag is now also factored into that calculation when dealing damage with physical weapons and it is treated as additional Str. Whether or not it takes 100% of the "secondary" stat into consideration is not something I know but here are some numbers using the previously mentioned stats and a basic Iron Axe:

Normal Attack 1 - 204.

Normal Attack 1 wDO - 270

Returning Axe - 1273

Returning Axe wDO - 1716

The way this interacts with Witstrike effects is that it will do the stat additions and then it will factor that total "Mag" into damage much like it did with a normal attack but it targets Res (this is normal behavior attributed to Witstrike effects.)

Lightning Axe - 1430

Lightning Axe - wDO - 2106

But since your Str and Mag are effectively the same when calculating damage with DO you dont see a large variance in damage between two combat arts of similar Might like those used in the testing. The only reason we even see a difference here is because I tested on the Myrmidon with 7 Def and 5 Res. If I had tested on the Soldier with 6 Def/Res I believe they would do identical damage.

[Burklight]

3 hours ago, Archeleon said:

Not sure if you found the information yet but Dual Onslaught takes the user's Str and Mag stat, adds them and then uses it to calculate damage. 

My Edelgard currently has 102 Str and 84 Mag. 

While equipped with an Axe her attacks, Arts and Actions calculate damage using her 102 Str (would apply to all other weapons except Tome) and targeting Def.

Dual Onslaught makes it so that her 84 Mag is now also factored into that calculation when dealing damage with physical weapons and it is treated as additional Str. Whether or not it takes 100% of the "secondary" stat into consideration is not something I know but here are some numbers using the previously mentioned stats and a basic Iron Axe:

Normal Attack 1 - 204.

Normal Attack 1 wDO - 270

Returning Axe - 1273

Returning Axe wDO - 1716

The way this interacts with Witstrike effects is that it will do the stat additions and then it will factor that total "Mag" into damage much like it did with a normal attack but it targets Res (this is normal behavior attributed to Witstrike effects.)

Lightning Axe - 1430

Lightning Axe - wDO - 2106

But since your Str and Mag are effectively the same when calculating damage with DO you dont see a large variance in damage between two combat arts of similar Might like those used in the testing. The only reason we even see a difference here is because I tested on the Myrmidon with 7 Def and 5 Res. If I had tested on the Soldier with 6 Def/Res I believe they would do identical damage.

I mean, it seemed obvious it was doing something like this. The issue I'm having is figuring out how much DO actually helps based on str or magic without a baseline. You could get one by using stat boosters and reset the game. I might do it this weekend if I get bored, but what you would want to do is take the numbers you just posted, then give Edelgard +20 str with stat boosters, do it again, reset the game. Then give her +20 mag with stat boosters and see if the numbers with DO match. If they do, we'll know that it's just adding str with mag. If they're different, then we'll know it's using some kind of ratio that will be a pain in the ass to solve for.

[Archeleon]

1 hour ago, Burklight said:

I mean, it seemed obvious it was doing something like this. The issue I'm having is figuring out how much DO actually helps based on str or magic without a baseline. You could get one by using stat boosters and reset the game. I might do it this weekend if I get bored, but what you would want to do is take the numbers you just posted, then give Edelgard +20 str with stat boosters, do it again, reset the game. Then give her +20 mag with stat boosters and see if the numbers with DO match. If they do, we'll know that it's just adding str with mag. If they're different, then we'll know it's using some kind of ratio that will be a pain in the ass to solve for.

Do you know how much damage Str or Mag are worth on their own?

[Moonlit Knight]

41 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Do you know how much damage Str or Mag are worth on their own?

On that note, do we know what skills like Dex, Luck, and Charm actually do in this game? And do we have any of the basic calculations for things like crit rate?

Edited July 16, 2022 by Moonlit Knight

[Archeleon]

Just now, Moonlit Knight said:

On that note, do we know what skills like Dex, Luck, and Charm actually do in this game? And do we have any of the basic calculations for things like crit rate?

Multiple sources state that:

Dexterity increases critical rate and the damage of critical rushes.

Luck increases the chance for recovery items to drop (awakening, special, durability drops).

Charm decreases the endurance damage your battalion takes.

I have not gotten around to testing any of that stuff yet.

[Burklight]

19 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Multiple sources state that:

Dexterity increases critical rate and the damage of critical rushes.

Luck increases the chance for recovery items to drop (awakening, special, durability drops).

Charm decreases the endurance damage your battalion takes.

I have not gotten around to testing any of that stuff yet.

What source says dex ups crit rate? I thought it only increased critical rush damage.  Edit: found it. The tutorial is organized horribly. Leveling up > Leveling up and Stat Increases

Also I have no idea how much str actually increases damage. Or attack, for that matter. There's too many unknown variables to easily isolate any of them. But if 20 str gives the same damage increase as 20 magic with DO on, we can assume it's just adding them and taking the total.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Burklight