Class combinations missing in the main series

[Jotari]

Old Jotari's been playing with spreadsheets again. This time my intent was to categorize what weapon type combinations have not had dedicated classes in Fire Emblem so far. Typically Fire Emblem class progression goes from a mono weapon wielder to a dual weapon wilders. There are some circumstances where a class gets three weapons, or even every weapon, but, aside from promoted mono weapon users, two weapons is the typical promoted class. I've combined this with the four movment types established in Heroes, infantry, armoured, flying and cavalry, to compose a list of all weapon combinations using Fire Emblem's six default weapons, sword, lances, axes, bows, magic and staffs. I then gave one example of a class for every combination. Those that I couldn't think of an example for are the ones that have not been made yet. Here is the full list.

Spoiler

Blue is for personal classes and yellow is for special cases

Infantry	Sword	Axe	Heros
Infantry	Sword	Lance	Awakening Great Lords
Infantry	Sword	Bow	3DS Assassins
Infantry	Sword	Magic	Genealogy Male Mage Fighters
Infantry	Sword	Staff	Tricksters
Infantry	Axe	Lance	No
Infantry	Axe	Bow	Warriors
Infantry	Axe	Magic	Oni Savages
Infantry	Axe	Staff	War Monks
Infantry	Lance	Bow	Merchants
Infantry	Lance	Magic	Basaras
Infantry	Lance	Staff	Great Masters
Infantry	Bow	Magic	No (though Hannemen kind of specializes in this)
Infantry	Bow	Staff	Adventurers
Infantry	Magic	Staff	Sages
Armoured	Sword	Axe	Radiant Dawn's Axe General
Armoured	Sword	Lance	Path of Radiance Generals
Armoured	Sword	Bow	No
Armoured	Sword	Magic	No
Armoured	Sword	Staff	No
Armoured	Axe	Lance	Generals
Armoured	Axe	Bow	No
Armoured	Axe	Magic	No
Armoured	Axe	Staff	No
Armoured	Lance	Bow	Archanea Generals
Armoured	Lance	Magic	No
Armoured	Lance	Staff	No
Armoured	Bow	Magic	No
Armoured	Bow	Staff	No
Armoured	Magic	Staff	No
Cavalry	Sword	Axe	Gold Knights
Cavalry	Sword	Lance	Paladins
Cavalry	Sword	Bow	Bow Knights
Cavalry	Sword	Magic	Mage Knights
Cavalry	Sword	Staff	Tellius Valkyries
Cavalry	Axe	Lance	No, but these are POR Titania's default weapon ranks
Cavalry	Axe	Bow	No, but this is a choice you can make in Path of Radiance
Cavalry	Axe	Magic	No
Cavalry	Axe	Staff	No
Cavalry	Lance	Bow	Silver Knight
Cavalry	Lance	Magic	Dark Knight
Cavalry	Lance	Staff	No
Cavalry	Bow	Magic	No
Cavalry	Bow	Staff	No
Cavalry	Magic	Staff	Gameboy Valkyries
Flying	Sword	Axe	Only with King Daein on Trial Maps in Path of Radiance
Flying	Sword	Lance	Falcon Knights
Flying	Sword	Bow	No, but Claude kind of specializes in this
Flying	Sword	Magic	Three Houses Dark Fliers
Flying	Sword	Staff	Elincia's personal classes
Flying	Axe	Lance	Dragon Lords
Flying	Axe	Bow	No
Flying	Axe	Magic	Malig Knights
Flying	Axe	Staff	No
Flying	Lance	Bow	Kinshi Knights
Flying	Lance	Magic	Dark Falcon
Flying	Lance	Staff	Awakening Falcon Knights
Flying	Bow	Magic	No
Flying	Bow	Staff	No
Flying	Magic	Staff	No

 

And if you're only interested in the classes that haven't been done yet, here they are

 

Spoiler

Infantry	Axe	Lance	No
Infantry	Bow	Magic	No (though Hanneman kind of specializes in this)
Armoured	Sword	Bow	No
Armoured	Sword	Magic	No
Armoured	Sword	Staff	No
Armoured	Axe	Bow	No
Armoured	Axe	Magic	No
Armoured	Axe	Staff	No
Armoured	Lance	Magic	No
Armoured	Lance	Staff	No
Armoured	Bow	Magic	No
Armoured	Bow	Staff	No
Armoured	Magic	Staff	No
Cavalry	Axe	Lance	No, but these are POR Titania's default weapon ranks
Cavalry	Axe	Bow	No, but this is a choice you can make in Path of Radiance
Cavalry	Axe	Magic	No
Cavalry	Axe	Staff	No
Cavalry	Lance	Staff	No
Cavalry	Bow	Magic	No
Cavalry	Bow	Staff	No
Flying	Sword	Axe	Only with King Daein on Trial Maps in Path of Radiance
Flying	Sword	Bow	No, but Claude kind of specializes in this
Flying	Axe	Bow	No
Flying	Axe	Staff	No
Flying	Bow	Magic	No
Flying	Bow	Staff	No
Flying	Magic	Staff	No

Some notes

*Fates filled out a lot of the infantry on this list with it's weird Hoshido hybrid classes. Before that game, which also introduced flying/bows and flying/magic, there would be a lot more gaps.

*Axe/Lance infantry is one of the more surprising things they haven't done yet. It does make sense in a way since axe users would prefer swords for an accurate strike, but it's kind of surprising they never even did this combo for some kind of lord or special unit. It can be used alone with swords in Fates's Master of Arms class. But I didn't count that because they also use swords.

*Sword/Lance infantry is also something that only exists for Chrom and Lucina.

*Likewise, while Falcon Knights have used both Swords and Staves, the only flier to use exclusively those two in combination is Elincia.

*Generals use bows in addition to the weapon triangle in Jugdral. So while we haven't seen a dedicated sword/bow or axe/bow armoured class, there are aromured units that use them.

*There is a series Bible somewhere in IS that says "Never shall armoured and magic meet, except for gatcha and enemies in Jugdral"

*Bow magic is the only weapon combination completely missing from all movement types. But, while we don't have any classes dedicated to it, we actually do have two units that lean that way, Hanneman with his proficiencies in Three Houses and Ronan with his magic growth in Thracia. Though of the two only Hanneman has the ability to actually use both.

*Dark Knight have used swords and lances so far in addition to their magic. Personally I hope they get axes next, as conceptually that actually seems like the most fitting physical weapon for them.

*Dedicated armoured axe/bow or sword/bow haven't been done, but Jugdral generals had all physical weapons (and it so happen a you're playable knights promoted to general were sword and axe focused).

Tell me if there are any classes I might have forgotten from my list of class types that haven't been tried

(and  yes, obviously all combinations have been done because Barons, Master Knights and Three Houses exist. This is specifically for combinations of two weapons).

Edited July 16, 2022 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Class types i'd like to see more of:

Armored Mages. One of the universal flaws of Armors is their low movement. Having Tomes, with universal 1-2 range (and beyond, in some cases) would compensate for this. Plus, we almost never see "high Defense, magically-offensive" units.

Fliers with Bows. Kinshi Knights were really cool, and Barbarossa might just be the single-best class in 3H. Fliers who can provide their own anti-flier functionality are a useful tool - and an imposing threat.

Principally Support Classes. This is sort of the complement to the main thrust of this thread, but I'm talking classes who have few weapons, or none at all. We know Healers and Dancers, sure, but how about bringing back FE6 Merlinus? Making a class oriented around rallies? Or a Flying "taxi" class with Savior and Pass, but no fighting ability? I think these options are under-explored at best.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Fliers with Bows. Kinshi Knights were really cool, and Barbarossa might just be the single-best class in 3H. Fliers who can provide their own anti-flier functionality are a useful tool - and an imposing threat.

It's actually amazing that it took so long for this to become a thing in the series. Making this list really opened my eyes to how much Fates (and to a lesser extent Awakening) did for class diversity in the series. Sure a lot of it was weird hybrid classes that probably won't stick around, but before the 3DS years Sacred Stones was practically the only game that introduced new class ideas beyond what was established in the very first game. The other titles usually just shuffled things around a bit.

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Principally Support Classes. This is sort of the complement to the main thrust of this thread, but I'm talking classes who have few weapons, or none at all. We know Healers and Dancers, sure, but how about bringing back FE6 Merlinus? Making a class oriented around rallies? Or a Flying "taxi" class with Savior and Pass, but no fighting ability? I think these options are under-explored at best.

I definitely think the Rallybot should be a dedicated class.

[Sooks]

Looking over the poll, I noticed that I favor staves being combined with other weapon types, just because I think that would be cool. But I think it would be cool if we had a full on magic armor knight, with tomes and staves, and a full on magic flier, also with tomes and staves (I mean dark flier is a thing, but it either uses lances as well or 3H’s “oops, all weapons!). It feels strange to me that infantry axe/lance and infantry bow/magic haven’t been done, so those two get my vote. Lastly, I just think that armored axe/staff, calvary bow/staff, and flying axe/bow are cool.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

*Bow magic is the only weapon combination completely missing from all movement types. But, while we don't have any classes dedicated to it, we actually do have two units that lean that way, Hanneman with his proficiencies in Three Houses and Ronan with his magic growth in Thracia. Though of the two only Hanneman has the ability to actually use both.

Reading this made me want to point out that Hubert and Mercedes also have proficiencies that lean this way, albeit Mercedes has a budding talent in bows. But this made me curious and I scanned through everyone’s proficiencies, and it turns out that, if you count budding talents, Felix, Ignatz, and Yuri all can also have proficiencies in both bows and magic.

[lenticular]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

*Bow magic is the only weapon combination completely missing from all movement types. But, while we don't have any classes dedicated to it, we actually do have two units that lean that way, Hanneman with his proficiencies in Three Houses and Ronan with his magic growth in Thracia. Though of the two only Hanneman has the ability to actually use both.

I'm not surprised that bow/agic has never been done. It doesn't seem like a combination that offers a whole lot, either mechanically or thematically.

Mechanically, bows and magic tend to serve a similar function: they both typically attack at range, often do chip damage, and usually operate outside of the weapon triangle. So giving a unit the ability to do that with two different weapon types doesn't seem all that meaningful. Sure, it would mean they'd potentially be able to hit against both def and res, which isn't nothing, but that would come with all the normal weaknesses of hybrid classes and all the weakness of training up two different weapon ranks, which probably wouldn't be worth it.

Thematically, I'm not sure I can think of any good examples of fighters using bows and magic. Or at least, not bows and the sort of battle magic that Fire Emblem goes for with fireballs and lightning bolts and that sort of things. Most of the examples of bows + magic that I can think of from fiction tend to go for either nature based magic or illusion based magic. Which isn't to say that they couldn'tdesign a class where it made sense, but I don't think that it's a super obvious archetype that feels lacking in its absence.

As for what I want to see, more staff + martial weapon combinations. I always find them really fun units to use, and I think there's a whole lot of unexplored territory with them.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Sooks said:

Looking over the poll, I noticed that I favor staves being combined with other weapon types, just because I think that would be cool. But I think it would be cool if we had a full on magic armor knight, with tomes and staves, and a full on magic flier, also with tomes and staves (I mean dark flier is a thing, but it either uses lances as well or 3H’s “oops, all weapons!). It feels strange to me that infantry axe/lance and infantry bow/magic haven’t been done, so those two get my vote. Lastly, I just think that armored axe/staff, calvary bow/staff, and flying axe/bow are cool.

Reading this made me want to point out that Hubert and Mercedes also have proficiencies that lean this way, albeit Mercedes has a budding talent in bows. But this made me curious and I scanned through everyone’s proficiencies, and it turns out that, if you count budding talents, Felix, Ignatz, and Yuri all can also have proficiencies in both bows and magic.

You're right, though I guess Hanneman just stands out forthcoming with bows equipped and learning a lot of bow based combat arts.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

I'm not surprised that bow/agic has never been done. It doesn't seem like a combination that offers a whole lot, either mechanically or thematically.

Mechanically, bows and magic tend to serve a similar function: they both typically attack at range, often do chip damage, and usually operate outside of the weapon triangle. So giving a unit the ability to do that with two different weapon types doesn't seem all that meaningful. Sure, it would mean they'd potentially be able to hit against both def and res, which isn't nothing, but that would come with all the normal weaknesses of hybrid classes and all the weakness of training up two different weapon ranks, which probably wouldn't be worth it.

Thematically, I'm not sure I can think of any good examples of fighters using bows and magic. Or at least, not bows and the sort of battle magic that Fire Emblem goes for with fireballs and lightning bolts and that sort of things. Most of the examples of bows + magic that I can think of from fiction tend to go for either nature based magic or illusion based magic. Which isn't to say that they couldn'tdesign a class where it made sense, but I don't think that it's a super obvious archetype that feels lacking in its absence.

That's the way I saw it at first (though I wouldn't describe magic as doing chip damage), but on giving it some further consideration, a mage with a now does offer a rather vital niche of giving them a way to deal with Pegasus knights, which are otherwise the best counters to mages, sure they have wind magic but Pegasus knights high res would make a bow much more reliable. Bows are also outranging magic via combat arts in the more recent games giving them a separate niche. I don't think it's a coincidence that now is the time we have started to see units designed specifically to carry magic and a bow (ehh....not that I ever really used bows on Hanneman despite fielding him a lot...And that being a game with troublesome Pegasus knights. So I guess I'm just being devil's advocate).

[Armchair General]

Exactly how are you going to aesthetically pull off an heavily armored mage? Everytime I see an dude clad in full plate armor, he's usually has an spear or an giant sword to go along with it.

And the concept of handing the guy an bow is kind of funny, though. I'm not sure about the full range of mobility your average suit of armor has, but an dedicated archer who's also wearing that much iron on him just feels like an waste, though

[X-Naut]

Fourthing, fifthing whateverthing Bow/Staff Fliers. Bow flier alone is an intriguing concept for being its own kryptonite, but adding staffs (and only staffs) to the mix sounds like a great "busted but tame" concept provided they don't get too much range flexibility. You have essentially the ultimate non-dancing utility class between being flight with a staff user and a bow user that can easily chase down fliers. At the same time however, the bow-lock leaves them hard-countered by enemy bows and they likely have inferior magic to other magic classes. I think bows would thematically work great with pegasi too; being fragile, skittish and sensitive creatures they'd arguably be better suited to carrying an archer than driving a sword or lance rider straight at the enemy.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Exactly how are you going to aesthetically pull off an heavily armored mage? Everytime I see an dude clad in full plate armor, he's usually has an spear or an giant sword to go along with it.

You make them look like this guy.

And you know, just looking at things logically the notion that mages can't wear armour is just a sterotype of the genre. If Mages were real they would have just as much cause to dress in heavy armour as any other type of fighter.

Quote

And the concept of handing the guy an bow is kind of funny, though. I'm not sure about the full range of mobility your average suit of armor has, but an dedicated archer who's also wearing that much iron on him just feels like an waste, though

Genealogy of the Holy War actually has bow locked Knights. Only as enemies though. In terms of how useful such a thing would be, well it wouldn't be the most sensical thing in the world but rather funnily they would be kind of useful as having them unable to counter at 1 range would cheese the enemy into attacking them. Armoured tanks are meant to soak up attacks, but as the AI always goes for maximum damage they kind of just ignore them (hence how we got Kellum's gimmick. I've seen people saying if Awakening had personal skills then he'd have some form of Shade, missing the fact that the reason he's like that is because that's already how armoured units are functionally treated by the AI). Course more anti flier utility is also useful on every class. I don't know about how everyone else, but I toss a bow and curved shot onto almost every unit in Three Houses because it's just always a nice option to have.

If you're talking specifically about Armoured Magic/Bow, then yeah, that's a freaking weird combination that is probably the last thing we'll see a dedicated user of in Fire Emblem.

1 hour ago, X-Naut said:

Fourthing, fifthing whateverthing Bow/Staff Fliers. Bow flier alone is an intriguing concept for being its own kryptonite, but adding staffs (and only staffs) to the mix sounds like a great "busted but tame" concept provided they don't get too much range flexibility. You have essentially the ultimate non-dancing utility class between being flight with a staff user and a bow user that can easily chase down fliers. At the same time however, the bow-lock leaves them hard-countered by enemy bows and they likely have inferior magic to other magic classes. I think bows would thematically work great with pegasi too; being fragile, skittish and sensitive creatures they'd arguably be better suited to carrying an archer than driving a sword or lance rider straight at the enemy.

Heroes did give us Bow Florina to try the pegasus archer concept, but I think if they were going to make flying archers a standard thing, then I think I'd like Kinshi Knights as a new dedicated mount to come back. They visually just look good and if we're going to have different weapons for flying units we might as well play around with aesthetic and have different mounts (sorry Barbarossa, but I think you're probably better off being exclusive).

In the same vein, as support unit, staff armours in general would be a nice thing to have for counter acting the squishy healer problem. It would be very nice to have a healer you can just send out onto the front lines to do their job without much concern for their safety.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Jotari

[lenticular]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's the way I saw it at first (though I wouldn't describe magic as doing chip damage), but on giving it some further consideration, a mage with a now does offer a rather vital niche of giving them a way to deal with Pegasus knights, which are otherwise the best counters to mages, sure they have wind magic but Pegasus knights high res would make a bow much more reliable. Bows are also outranging magic via combat arts in the more recent games giving them a separate niche. I don't think it's a coincidence that now is the time we have started to see units designed specifically to carry magic and a bow (ehh....not that I ever really used bows on Hanneman despite fielding him a lot...And that being a game with troublesome Pegasus knights. So I guess I'm just being devil's advocate).

While recent games have been increasing the effective range of bows, they've also been increasing the effective range of magic. Bows have the advantage in Shadows of Valentia, even though 3-range magic is common, but they're much more even in Three Houses. Getting up to 7-range for non-siege magic isn't particularly hard there (Thoron/Mire/Death + Thyrsus + Valkyrie + S rank Reason), and getting up to about 5 range is something that tends to happen without even trying.

I see your point about Pegasus Knights and being able to hit def rather than res, but hitting def is only really an advantage when strength and magic are comparable, which IS doesn't tend to do with their hybrid unit design. Though, in fairness, if they go forward with specific spell lists rather than tomes, not all units are going to have access to wind magic, so there is that. Except, realistically, I'd probably just prefer to have someone else deal with the pegasus and let my bow mage do something else instead. Maybe a flying class would actually be the best choice for a bow mage, since they're most likely to be operating autonomously, not have anyone else to support them, and actually need that effective damage against enemy fliers?

For Hanneman specifically, I found he was decent enough as a dedicated mage and decent enough as a dedicated archer, but pretty lousy as a hybrid. As an archer, you really want to get him to B rank in bows so he can use a magic bow which is a non-trivial investment. And you also really want him to pick up Hunter's Volley so he can double, except that you can't have that and magic at the same time. The more that the series moves towards skills and combat arts and different builds being meaningfully different, the more difficulties there are going to be to make hybrids work.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

While recent games have been increasing the effective range of bows, they've also been increasing the effective range of magic. Bows have the advantage in Shadows of Valentia, even though 3-range magic is common, but they're much more even in Three Houses. Getting up to 7-range for non-siege magic isn't particularly hard there (Thoron/Mire/Death + Thyrsus + Valkyrie + S rank Reason), and getting up to about 5 range is something that tends to happen without even trying.

Oh yeah they have been increasing magic's range too, but bows on average have been outranging magic on average, as longer range magic is more specialized than longer range bows which are becoming standard. The main extenders to magic in Three Houses are  holy weapons and S rank skills while almost anyone can sling a curved shot and even low tier classes get range extended bows by default.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

I see your point about Pegasus Knights and being able to hit def rather than res, but hitting def is only really an advantage when strength and magic are comparable, which IS doesn't tend to do with their hybrid unit design. Though, in fairness, if they go forward with specific spell lists rather than tomes, not all units are going to have access to wind magic, so there is that. Except, realistically, I'd probably just prefer to have someone else deal with the pegasus and let my bow mage do something else instead. Maybe a flying class would actually be the best choice for a bow mage, since they're most likely to be operating autonomously, not have anyone else to support them, and actually need that effective damage against enemy fliers?

That's the larger issues with hybrid classes in Fire Emblem in general and the fear of making them broken that has made them either useless or superfluous.

[X-Naut]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh yeah they have been increasing magic's range too, but bows on average have been outranging magic on average, as longer range magic is more specialized than longer range bows which are becoming standard. The main extenders to magic in Three Houses are  holy weapons and S rank skills while almost anyone can sling a curved shot and even low tier classes get range extended bows by default.

There's a lot of context missing here. Bows in 3H are mostly 2-range and rely on skills or arts to break out of it, some of them class-locked. Meanwhile, magic is all 1-2 or 1-3 range by default, Thrysus is a free +2 that can be passed around (even to crestless peasants if you can accept the recoil) and while Magic Range +1 is high-effort it isn't class-locked. And correct me if I'm wrong, but magic doesn't have the hit penalty at extended ranges... I think lent brings up valid points about magic encroaching on bows' range niche.

On your previous response, staff armor could be a reinterpretation of War Monk/Cleric. And in the event that pegasi main bows then Kinshi Knight or a copycat would make a great side-option to bow/staff Falcos.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

On your previous response, staff armor could be a reinterpretation of War Monk/Cleric. And in the event that pegasi main bows then Kinshi Knight or a copycat would make a great side-option to bow/staff Falcos.

What do you mean by reinterpretation of War Monk? As in the idea of a physically inclined staff user, or to literally make the existing War Monk class armoured? Because I don't think armour really gels well with the idea of a monk. There are plenty of random names you can come up with. For the armoured staff user on my class tree I gave them to name Rearguard, even though the reason I think such an idea would be good is because they'd be a staff user you can take away from the rear, but that would hardly be the most inappropriate Fire Emblem class name, with the precedent they've already set in consistency they could probably get away with called the class Seamstress XD

[Armchair General]

3 hours ago, X-Naut said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but magic doesn't have the hit penalty at extended ranges

It doesn't.

3 hours ago, X-Naut said:

I think lent brings up valid points about magic encroaching on bows' range niche

The thing about archery is that you normally don't have an lot of them and that the ones who have an talent in them generally aren't the strongest ones in the cast. With 3H, they're perfect for killing off fliers and dealing some chip damage; but roughly 80% of the classes in the game have an weakness to magic, which is actually cheaper to use (not that money is an issue).

IIRC, an Bow Knight with an longbow might outrange most types of magic. Sure, there's that staff that you get from Flayn and Gloucester; but you can also just spam Bow Knights armed with Longbows  for the same result.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

Coincidentally, I've been working on a "Fates II" class tree with skills concept. One of the goals for that tree is to have a class for every possible combination of two weapons which don't occupy the same space on the Fates weapon triangle (i.e no bows and axes, but yes bows and swords).

Unfortunately this makes it all the more apparent how hidden weapons aren't mentioned here, which is both pathetic and a darn shame. I personally have been wanting a Tome-Dagger class.

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Unfortunately this makes it all the more apparent how hidden weapons aren't mentioned here, which is both pathetic and a darn shame. I personally have been wanting a Tome-Dagger class.

Well, we kinda had those with PoR mages choosing between Staves and Knives during promotion. Sure, they weren't exactly a weapon class until RD where it wasn't possible, but still...

Edited July 16, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[AnonymousSpeed]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, we kinda had those with PoR Sages choosing between Staves and Knives during promotion. Sure, they weren't exactly a weapon class back then, but still...

Perhaps, but, here me out:

1. Knives in Path of Radiance are functionally totally unlike hidden weapons in Fates

2. Path of Radiance is a bad game

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Coincidentally, I've been working on a "Fates II" class tree with skills concept. One of the goals for that tree is to have a class for every possible combination of two weapons which don't occupy the same space on the Fates weapon triangle (i.e no bows and axes, but yes bows and swords).

Unfortunately this makes it all the more apparent how hidden weapons aren't mentioned here, which is both pathetic and a darn shame.

Blame Fates for having them in only one(ish) game.

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I personally have been wanting a Tome-Dagger class.

Well Acacia already got to the putting you down by reminding everyone Path of Radiance Sages exist response. So I'll bring the positive response by reminding everyone the sacrificial dagger knife already exists in Fates and establishes a good aesthetic of dark mages using knives in such a way.

[Quell]

I'm personally simping for magic armor, we're sorely missing those. Seriously, aside from memes and stereotypes why we still haven't got one of those? Hell, even Fates skip on them, with the BR side not having even a singular armor class iirc, despite introducing quite a few mixed phys/magic classes. I'm miffed, I want a axe/thunder general, come on IS!

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

14 hours ago, Quell said:

I'm personally simping for magic armor, we're sorely missing those. Seriously, aside from memes and stereotypes why we still haven't got one of those? Hell, even Fates skip on them, with the BR side not having even a singular armor class iirc, despite introducing quite a few mixed phys/magic classes. I'm miffed, I want a axe/thunder general, come on IS!

Thinking on it, making the Oni Fighter, Chieftain, and Blacksmith all Armored would've been great for the class system. Now we have symmetry, an armored class with magic, plus Blacksmith is further differentiated from Hero. They'd probably want to modify the class sprites and models, though...

On 7/16/2022 at 5:23 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Unfortunately this makes it all the more apparent how hidden weapons aren't mentioned here, which is both pathetic and a darn shame. I personally have been wanting a Tome-Dagger class.

I remember having an idea for a Nohrian "Chef" class, using daggers and tomes. Perhaps with skills that are cooking puns. It would promote from Servant, a dagger-wielding class that would simultaneously serve as a more natural first-stage for Maid and Butler.

On 7/16/2022 at 12:20 PM, Armchair General said:

IIRC, an Bow Knight with an longbow might outrange most types of magic. Sure, there's that staff that you get from Flayn and Gloucester; but you can also just spam Bow Knights armed with Longbows  for the same result.

It's not really "the same result" if your hits aren't landing. 70 base Hit isn't great, and you lose points from 3 range outward. Curved Shot can make up for this, but then you're not doubling. And unlike with Magic, terrain can compromise your hit rate even furthef.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Extra responses.

[Jotari]

It's funny. Despite the pointed out issues with a Bow/Magic class, it seems it's one of the combinations people want most judging by the poll (at least for Infantry). I wonder if that purely comes down to the fact that we discussed it so it came to people's mind, or if it is an idea people genuinely like.

[Armchair General]

14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's not really "the same result" if your hits aren't landing. 70 base Hit isn't great, and you lose points from 3 range outward. Curved Shot can make up for this, but then you're not doubling. And unlike with Magic, terrain can compromise your hit rate even furthef.

Well, the Accuracy Ring partially negates the distance penalty, along with the Bow Prowess skill. As for the terrain penalty, what happened to kiting? Or just luring your enemies out in the open? It's not like the AI in 3H is smart enough to deliberately seek cover once they're triggered; but killing them via kiting isn't exactly the most sustainable way because you're going to run out of room on some of the later levels, especially within the first few turns inside the Imperial palace...but then most of that map is neutral terrain, so it's not like you'll be screwed over by missing shots.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Well, the Accuracy Ring partially negates the distance penalty, along with the Bow Prowess skill. As for the terrain penalty, what happened to kiting? Or just luring your enemies out in the open? It's not like the AI in 3H is smart enough to deliberately seek cover once they're triggered; but killing them via kiting isn't exactly the most sustainable way because you're going to run out of room on some of the later levels, especially within the first few turns inside the Imperial palace...but then most of that map is neutral terrain, so it's not like you'll be screwed over by missing shots.

The Accuracy Ring (+10 Hit) can be used by Mages as well, albeit not in combination with Thyrsus or Caduceus;

Reason Prowess actually gives a larger bonus (+20 Hit) than Bow Prowess does (+15 Hit);

Again, spells (and magical weapons) don't suffer a hit penalty (-30 Hit) at 3-range. Even with Bow Prowess Lv. 5 (+15), Hit Rate +20 (+20), and the Accuracy Ring (+10), a Bow user will have a lower Hit modifier at 3-range (15 + 20 + 10 - 30 = 15) than a spell user with Reason Prowess Lv. 5 (+20) at the same range. And this margin widens by an additional 20 Hit (in Reason's favor) for every tile further;

Obviously, evasion-boosting terrain isn't an issue on all maps, but where it does come up, it's generally to the benefits of magical weapons;

What is "kiting"?

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's funny. Despite the pointed out issues with a Bow/Magic class, it seems it's one of the combinations people want most judging by the poll (at least for Infantry). I wonder if that purely comes down to the fact that we discussed it so it came to people's mind, or if it is an idea people genuinely like.

I think it would be cool, especially in a game where A) Bows tend to outrange spells, but spells retain near-ubiquitous 1-range, and B) Enemy Resistance is broadly comparable with Enemy Defense, and is actually higher in more than a few classes. Attacking at range with Bows, while using spells against enemies that come up close, could be a really neat aesthetic. Since their hands are taken, I'm envisioning a "magical martial artist" who casts spells using their feet (i.e. kicking fireballs at foes).

[Armchair General]

17 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

What is "kiting"?

Abusing Canto with Bow Knights. Not that  one would usually have the room to keep doing it for more than three turns.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Armchair General