Three Houses Character Builds Dump

[windypanda1]

Hello! I’ve cleared this game on Maddening around 12 times, and I wanted to share some cool builds that I’ve messed around with during that time.

Disclaimer: This guide is based on my own experience. There is no intention of discrediting other playstyles. Feel free to leave any suggestions or criticisms.

 

[General Info]

Before we get into the builds, I want to cover some basic info.

 

1. Maddening enemies are much faster than Hard enemies. This makes multi-hit combat arts favorable for offensive firepower.

• Swift Strikes (Ferdinand, Sylvain, Seteth)
• Point-Blank Volley (Cyril, Leonie)
• Hunter’s Volley (Sniper Mastery)
• Fierce Iron Fist (Grappler Mastery)
• Bombard, Nimble Combo, One-Two Punch, etc.

 

2.  Here are some abilities that go well in pretty much any build:

• Death Blow = Str+6 when initiating combat (Brigand)
• Fiendish Blow = Mag+6 when initiating combat (Mage)
• Darting Blow = Speed+6 when initiating combat (Pegasus Knight)
• Hit+20 = Accuracy+20% (Archer)

If you're willing to put in the effort, it's definitely worth grinding your characters through these Intermediate classes.

 

3. Curved Shot (D Bow) is a very safe and accurate chip damage tool, and pretty much every physical unit benefits from having it. It's definitely worth considering if you aren't planning to use all 3 of the combat art slots.

 

4. Flying is amazing in Three Houses. Lots of dynamic terrain and super canto means fliers have unparalleled freedom in movement. You can also stack crazy amounts of Avoid on fliers for reliable enemy phase. Proof that dodgetanking works on Maddening

 

5.    The most difficult points in Maddening are probably Chapter 5 (Miklan), Chapter 13 (Hunting By Daybreak), and Endgame.

• Chapter 5 can be made easier by recruiting Catherine in Chapter 4. (For Black Eagles Route, just try to overlevel Edelgard.)
• For Chapter 13, make sure to create a separate save in Chapter 12 to avoid softlocking. The easiest method I found was to just have a very strong Byleth, but there are cheese strategies available if you need them.
• For Endgame, you can get stuck on the final bosses if you’re not prepared. I’ve found that training 2 units with very high strength and speed is the best way to handle them. Don’t sell your Goddess Icons and put them on your carry units.

Oookay, hopefully that wasn’t too painful. Now let's get to the builds.

 

[S Tier]

These are seriously powerful builds that I recommend going for if your goal is to clear.

 

1. Fast Female Flier

Characters: Edelgard, F!Byleth, Petra, Hilda, Leonie, Ingrid, Catherine

Speedy Wyvern Lords / Falcon Knights capable of doubling in player phase and dodgetanking in enemy phase. These characters will often be the strongest units in your party.

What sets them apart from Male Fliers is their strong midgame with Pegasus Certification for flying and Darting Blow access.

First, go Pegasus Knight and get Darting Blow and Death Blow. This will give you a massive power spike which can pretty much trivialize part 1. Once you have access to Knowledge Gem and Saint Cethlainn Restoration (Class Exp+1), you can try to get Alert Stance+ and Sword Prowess Lv5 to begin the dodgetanking. Optionally, you can get Sword Avo+20 from Dancer Certification which will make the character nigh untouchable and at that point you’re smooth sailing for victory.

Choose whatever Master class you like. I usually prefer Wyvern Lord for the higher strength but some characters go into Falcon Knight more easily.

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Class: Wyvern Lord / Falcon Knight

Main Weapon: Rapier, Wo Dao+

Accessory: Evasion Ring / Chalice of Beginnings

Battalion: Cichol Wyvern Co.

Abilities:

1.    [Alert Stance+]

2.    [Sword Prowess Lv5]

3.    Darting Blow

4.    Death Blow

5.    Hit+20 / Sword Avo+20

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The abilities with [   ] brackets are the mandatory ones, and the other slots you can fill with whatever you like. Darting Blow and Death Blow provides a lot of player phase killing power, and Sword Avo+20 provides a crazy amount of Avoid. Defiant Avo, Battalion Wrath, and Breaker skills are some other alternatives. Cichol Wyvern Co. gives you a lot of Crit but there are other flying battalions that provide more Avoid.

The completed setup will let you have over 100 Avoid and up to 130+ with Sword Avo+20.

Example Build 1 / Example Build 2

Details about individual units:

- F!Byleth and Catherine cannot certify for Sword Avo+20.

- Petra has very good boons for Wyvern Lord which means you’ll have a comfortable time training her ranks.

- Hilda has worse boons but a 15% higher Charm growth than Petra. Theoretically, this is 4.5 Charm across 30 levels, which is a 22.5% difference in enemy Gambit accuracy.

- Ingrid has both good boons and high Charm, but her Strength can suffer. Give her a lot of love and Rocky Burdocks.

- Leonie has a solid lower effort build as a Bow Knight, but I think flying is definitely stronger. She just makes it work with her great stats.

- Catherine has very high strength and speed from start to finish. However, her Charm is very low which makes her susceptible to gambits.

- Edelgard and F!Byleth > the others mainly because of how quickly they gain stats. They also have Crest of Flames and good Charm for additional safety.

- Jeritza can run a very similar final build with Darting Blow from Flying budding talent and Counterattack from Death Knight mastery.

 

(I won’t mention Battalions anymore. Accuray is appreciated by everyone. Evasion is good for dodgetanks. Crit is good for high-crit builds. Use your best judgment!)

 

2. KELOOT Kill Every Last One Of Them

Characters: Dimitri

Dimitri is the only character in the game who has access to both Battalion Wrath and Battalion Vantage. This means if his Battalion is red, he can always hit first with 50 Crit in Enemy Phase. With some more crit investment, he can crit almost everything to death before enemies can even touch him. I found that Killer Bow+ is the best way to abuse B. Wrath + B. Vantage since you can cover 1-2 Range naturally. 

As for classpath, you can do Sniper -> Bow Knight for Hunter’s Volley or Paladin -> Bow Knight for movement. Both work just as well.

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Class: Bow Knight

Main Weapon: Killer Bow+ in Enemy Phase, Brave Bow in Player Phase

Accessory: Critical Ring / Chalice of Beginnings

Abilities:

1.    [Battalion Wrath]

2.    [Battalion Vantage]

3.    [Close Counter]

4.    [Hit+20]

5.    Bow Prowess Lv5 / Bow Crit+10 

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Black-Sand Steel can be bought infinitely from a Merchant in Garreg Mach. If you’re going to use Chalice of Beginnings, any weapon type should be fine.

Example Build

 

3. Barbarossa

Characters: Claude

While Claude doesn’t get ridiculous stats like the other lords, he has an amazing unique class in Barbarossa. With the right setup, he can become a monstrous enemy phase unit. 

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Class: Barbarossa

Main Weapon: Silver Bow / Killer Bow+ for Enemy Phase, Brave Bow for Player Phase

Accessory: Evasion Ring

Abilities:

1.    [Alert Stance+]

2.    [Bow Prowess Lv5]

3.    [Close Counter]

4.   Quick Riposte / Battalion Wrath

5.    Hit+20 / Death Blow

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Quick Riposte not only prevents enemy doubles but also guarantees you can double the enemy. However, it does take quite a bit of grinding to get, so you could try a crit setup with Killer Bow+ and Battalion Wrath instead. Also, you can forgo Close Counter if you want to use Chalice of Beginnings.

Example Build / Showcase

 

[A Tier]

These are strong builds that can be valuable assets to your team.

 

1. Male Wyvern

Characters: Seteth, Ferdinand, Sylvain, Cyril

These are all characters with Multi-hit combat arts, which takes care of their offense. And then they can take care of their tanking and mobility with flying. 

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Class: Wyvern Lord

Main Weapon: Mainly Steel Lance+ for durability, but Spear of Assal and Killer Lance+ are great

Accessory: Evasion Ring / Accuracy Ring

Abilities:

1.    [Death Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Lance Prowess Lv5]

4.    Alert Stance+

5.    Swordbreaker / Quick Riposte

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Use Swift Strikes for killing and Alert Stance+ for tanking. You can forgo all of the evasion stuff if you don’t want it. Cyril uses Bow instead and pretty much the same build otherwise.

Example Build

Details about individual units:

- Ferdinand makes great use of Alert Stance+ in particular, thanks to his passive which grants Hit/Avo+15 when at full health.

- Ferdinand, Seteth, and Sylvain unlock Swift Strikes at A Lance. Cyril unlocks Point-Blank Volley at C+ Bows.

- Sylvain and Ferdinand have a lower effort build as a Paladin. Check B Tier for more info.

 

 

2. Sniper

Characters: Shamir, Bernadetta, Ignatz, Yuri, Ashe, Anna

Snipers basically spam Hunter’s Volley 95% of the time for big firepower. Their long range is valuable for hunting monsters, and their flying effectiveness is valuable for flying enemies which can be tough to deal with.

In early game, it’s worth training D Lance to pick up kills more easily. Tempest Lance with Steel Lance is one of the strongest sources of early game damage at 17 Mt. (Smash is 14, Wrath Strike is 13, and Curved Shot is 10.) 

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Class: Sniper

Main Weapon: Steel Bow+ / Killer Bow+

Accessory: Accuracy Ring / Critical Ring

Abilities:

1.    [Death Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Bow Prowess Lv5]

4.    Bow Crit+10

5.    Bowfaire

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Example Build / Showcase

Details about individual units:

 

- Shamir has very early access to the class which means she can start spamming Hunter’s Volley much earlier than anyone else.

- For Bernadetta, use a Steel Shield in early game or Defense Adjutant (Armor Knight, Brawler) in mid-lategame to bring her to low HP. This will trigger her passive which will give her a huge Atk+5 boost. Bernadetta also has a great damage source in Vengeance at C+ Lance, which is definitely worth training for. 

- Ignatz has an amazing accuracy passive which lets him use Hunter’s Volley reliably at 4 Range.

- Pretty much any physical unit without Bow bane can be made into a good Sniper. This can save lackluster units like Anna from mediocrity.

 

 

3. War Master

Characters: M!Byleth, Felix, Balthus, Dedue, Raphael, Alois, Caspar, Gilbert

War Masters are bulky frontliners that can perform well in both Player Phase and Enemy Phase. In early-midgame, you want to opt into Grappler with Death Blow and Hit+20. You can then spam Fierce Iron Fist (Grappler Mastery) until you reach Lv30, where you can get the innate Crit+20 and Quick Riposte to start going ham. 

I have experimented with a lot of War Master builds, but the below build is easily my favorite.

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Class: War Master

Main Weapon: Killer Axe+

Accessory: Critical Ring / Accuracy Ring / Chalice of Beginnings

Abilities:

1.    [Death Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Axe Prowess Lv5]

4.    [Quick Riposte]

5.    [Axe Crit+10]

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This setup will give you 95-100 crit on Smash which lets you nuke almost everything along with Death Blow. This build also has a great enemy phase with Quick Riposte, often getting at least 1 crit out of the 2 attacks which lets them kill consistently.

Example Build / Showcase 1 / Showcase 2

 

 

4. Dark Flier

Characters: Lysithea, Constance, Hapi, Marianne, Annette, Dorothea, Mercedes, Flayn

Dark Flier is by far the best offensive class for mages. 7 Mov Flying gives them a ton of reach coupled with Thyrsus/Caduceus, and Canto complements their glass cannon playstyle very well. Unfortunately, only female characters can access this class.

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Class: Dark Flier

Main Weapon: Maaagic

Accessory: Thyrsus / Caduceus Staff, Healing Staff

Battalion: Nuvelle Fliers Corps

Abilities:

1.    [Fiendish Blow]

2.    [Darting Blow]

3.    [Hit+20]

4.    [Reason Prowess Lv5]

5.    Speed+2 / Weight-3 / Black Magic Range+1 / Alert Stance+

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The most important thing to consider here is doubling threshold against enemy cavaliers and other slower units. I noticed that Darting Blow will usually get you close but not quite. Try to bring AS up with Speed+2, Weight-3, Speedwing, Speed Ring, etc. 

Nuvelle Fliers Corps is the only flying magic battalion. If you missed it, just go for any other stats like accuracy/crit/evasion.

Example Build

Details about individual units:

- Lysithea is the best Dark Flier, with a huge offensive spell list, Warp, and 10-15% higher Speed growth than other mages which means more reliable doubling. 

- Constance has two rare spells in Rescue and Bolting, as well as ideal boons for the class.

- Hapi has Physic and Warp, as well as a versatile Dark spell list.

- Marianne has Physic and Silence. Her spell list generally has lower accuracy but higher crit which can be useful for monster hunting.

- Annette has a very powerful Rally which can jack up your physical units.

- Dorothea has Physic and Meteor. She takes damage from Thyrsus, so you might want to give her the Caduceus Staff instead. She has a flying bane but it isn’t a big issue, since you only need      D to certify for Dark Flier and Pegasus Knight. 

- Flayn has Fortify and Rescue. She starts a bit behind but she can still do well with proper care.

 

5. Bishop

Characters: Linhardt, Hapi, Mercedes, Marianne, Dorothea, Manuela

Bishop is by far the most reliable source of healing in the game. The only prerequisite to being a good Bishop is learning Physic. This class is more focused on keeping everyone healthy rather than dishing out damage.

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Class: Bishop

Main Weapon: Maaagic

Accessory: Healing Staff, Thyrsus / Cadaceus Staff

Abilities:

1.    [Fiendish Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Reason Prowess Lv5]

4.    Magic+2 / Renewal / Darting Blow

5.    White Magic Range+1 / HP+5

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4th and 5th ability slots really don't matter that much. Draw Back is a great repositioning combat art that moves a unit back 1 space, so try getting from Priest/Monk Mastery if you want.

Example Build

Details about individual units:

- Linhardt and Hapi have Warp, which makes them very favorable choices.

- Mercedes has Fortify, which is big quality of life for healing everyone at once. Some people say Fortify is bad because it ruins low HP strats, which may be true, but I think it’s still great.

- Marianne has Silence for shutting down enemy siege tomes. Maybe smack around some stuff with Blutgang.

- Dorothea has Meteor which has another property than attacking. When equipped, it gives a support bonus to every ally in Meteor range, which is Hit/Avoid+7 for B support and Hit/Avoid+10 for A support. Definitely worth considering.

- Unfortunately, Manuela doesn’t have Physic, but she does have Warp if for some reason you’re unwilling to use Lysithea, Linhardt, and Hapi.

- Some other Physic users are: Ashe, Bernadetta, Ignatz, Ingrid, Leonie, Shamir, Sylvain. Try experimenting, maybe you'll find the new meta.

 

 

6. Valkyrie

Characters: Marianne, Hapi, Dorothea

Valkyrie has less mobility than Dark Flier but can have an absolutely disgusting reach with magic range stacking. Best used with 3 range spells like Thoron and Death Γ for a maximum range of 7. 

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Class: Valkyrie

Main Weapon: Maaagic

Accessory: Thyrsus, Healing Staff

Abilities:

1.    [Fiendish Blow]

2.    [Uncanny Blow]

3.    [Reason Prowess Lv5]

4.    [Black Magic Range+1]

4.    Darting Blow / Hit+20 / Movement+1

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This build will generally not be able to double as well as Dark Flier but can take potshots at enemies from a very safe distance, acting as a walking siege weapon.

 

[B Tier]

Notable builds that I wouldn’t consider as strong as the above builds, but can still perform well.

 

1. Magic Sniper

Characters: Hanneman, Hubert, Lorenz, Mercedes

Magic Sniper is a bit finicky to use but it brings incredible firepower to the table. Magic Bow Hunter’s Volley is a guaranteed double magic attack, which means it deletes almost everything from the game. Therefore, this build is a good alternative to Dark Knight for the few male mages in the game, namely Hanneman, Hubert, and Lorenz. You can make use of the Physical side for hitting high Res enemies or conserving Magic Bow uses. 

Stay as a Mage for Intermediate class while training up Bow Rank, then you can make the transition to Sniper.

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Class: Sniper

Main Weapon: Magic Bow, Steel Bow+

Accessory: Accuracy Ring

Abilities:

1.  [Death Blow]

2. [Fiendish Blow]

3. [Hit+20]

4.    [Bow Prowess Lv5]

5.    Bow Crit+10 / Uncanny Blow

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Arcane crystals can be farmed by feeding the pets in the monastery or from the Arcane Merchant starting from Chapter 16. (You need to complete the quest Taking Care of Business)

Example Build

 

 

2. Tanky Paladin

Characters: Sylvain, Ferdinand

Even factoring in Lancefaire, Wyvern Lord outclasses this build due to its superior mobility. However, Paladin takes very minimal effort to build while still performing well, and that effort can be spared on your other characters.

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Class: Paladin

Main Weapon: Mainly Steel Lance+ for durability, but Spear of Assal and Killer Lance+ are great

Accessory: Aegis Shield / Silver Shield

Abilities:

1.    [Death Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Lance Prowess Lv5]

4.    Movement+1

5.    Quick Riposte

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I wrote down Mov+1 and Quick Riposte in the last slot but you can fill it with any random stuff like HP+5 and Bow Prowess. Again the point of the build is that it doesn't require much effort.

Paladin -> Great Knight is HP+3, Str-1, Dex-2, Spd-3, Def+6, Res-2, and Mov-1. I'd say it's not worth it but maybe you like the extra bulk.

 

 

3. Brawling Dodgetank

Characters: Felix, Caspar

This one is a brawl-focused Grappler / War Master for faster characters like Felix and Caspar. Quite tanky with all the bonus avoid and Quick Riposte. Brawl Avo+20 can be obtained from War Cleric mastery. 

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Class: Grappler / War Master

Main Weapon: Killer Knuckles+, Iron Knuckles+

Accessory: Evasion Ring

Abilities:

1.    [Brawl Prowess Lv5]

2.    [Brawl Avo+20]

3.    [Quick Riposte]

4.    Death Blow

5.    Hit+20 / Alert Stance+

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Example Build

 

4. Magic Wyvern (with Orange Hair)

Characters: Annette

This build makes full use of Annette’s Lightning Axe combat art for offense. Lightning Axe hits considerably harder than Soulblade and Frozen Lance, which lets it secure kills more easily. However, its accuracy is lower, so you want all the accuracy you can get.

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Class: Wyvern Lord

Main Weapon: Silver Axe+

Accessory: Accuracy Ring

Abilities:

1.    [Fiendish Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Axe Prowess Lv5]

4.    Death Blow

5.    Rally Speed / Alert Stance+

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Example Build

 

Alright, that’s all I have for now! Hopefully the formatting wasn't terrible. I will try to update the post with more builds and screenshots soon.

I'm looking for more builds to try out so maybe you can leave your own in the thread. Thanks for reading!  

Edited August 29, 2022 by windypanda1

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, windypanda1 said:

Curved Shot (D Bow) is a very safe and accurate chip damage tool, and pretty much every physical unit benefits from having it.

Agree that pretty much any physical unit would benefit from having it, but I think there are a fair few cases where I'd rather use my combat art slots for something else. Everyone also benefits from having a movement art (with Reposition being the standout of the bunch), and there are also plenty of instances where I want a character to have two or more arts for their main weapon (eg, a generic damaging art and an effective damage art). So I wouldn't say "put curved shot on everyone" so much as "curved shot is a valid choice for everyone, so keep it in mind when considering your options".

1 hour ago, windypanda1 said:

Flying is amazing in Three Houses. Lots of dynamic terrain and super canto means fliers have unparalleled freedom in movement. You can also stack crazy amounts of Avoid on fliers for reliable enemy phase. Proof that dodgetanking works on Maddening

Dodgetanks are probably just too good and come close to the point where I'd flat out say that they break the game. If your goal is just to win at all costs, then dodge tanks are amazing. If you still want to have to actually play the game rather than let it play itself... well, dodgetanks are still amazing, but you need to exercise a bit of restraint with them.

1 hour ago, windypanda1 said:

1. Fast Female Flier

Characters: Edelgard, F!Byleth, Petra, Hilda, Leonie, Ingrid, Catherine

Manuela also belongs in this conversation, with her excellent speed and charm and her strength in flying and swords. Her drawbacks are her mediocre strength (same growth rate as Ingrid), her lack of access to Sword Avoid +20, and her late joining time. She's not as strong an option as some of the other units here, but she does the job and does it well.

1 hour ago, windypanda1 said:

[Quick Riposte]

This isn't something that I would personally want to rely on for any build, especially not ones that aren't using axes and gauntlets naturally. My general assumption is that I don't want to make any build that relies on S or S+ rank to skills or mastering a master tier class, since these come online very late in the game, if at all. It's fine to include them as options for people who are playing on NG+ and/or are willing to grind a lot more than I am, but it would probably be helpful to also have a lower investment alternative listed as well.

1 hour ago, windypanda1 said:

Class: Bishop

Main Weapon: Maaagic

Accessory: Healing Staff, Thyrsus / Cadaceus Staff

I would very rarely put Thyrsus or Caduceus on a Bishop. Not that they aren't excellent, but I always have other characters who want them more. Maybe if I wasn't running any offensive magic users. Or for a turn or two here and there if passing them around would allow for a very specific beneficial play. But as a general rule, no.

1 hour ago, windypanda1 said:

- Mercedes has Fortify, which is big quality of life for healing everyone at once. Some people say Fortify is bad because it ruins low HP strats, which may be true, but I think it’s still great.

The alternative way of looking at things would be to say that low HP strats are bad because they ruin Fortify. I think it's probably more accurate to say that there is tension between Fortify and low HP strats and that they do not have good synergy with each other. Be mindful if you're trying to use both.

1 hour ago, windypanda1 said:

Even factoring in Lancefaire, Wyvern Lord outclasses this build due to its superior mobility. However, Paladin takes very minimal effort to build while still performing well, and that effort can be spared on your other characters.

Paladin can also be a good choice due to wider battalion access. If you're using all your good flying battalions on others, or if you want a high mobility user of a gambit on a grounded battalion, then look to paladin. (And it's also a good choice for anyone doing any sort of challenge run where fliers are restricted.)

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

2 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

3. Magic Wyvern (with Orange Hair)

Characters: Annette

This build makes full use of Annette’s Lightning Axe combat art for offense. Lightning Axe hits considerably harder than Soulblade and Frozen Lance, which lets it secure kills more easily. However, its accuracy is lower, so you want all the accuracy you can get.

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Class: Wyvern Lord

Main Weapon: Silver Axe+

Accessory: Accuracy Ring

Abilities:

1.    [Fiendish Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Axe Prowess Lv5]

4.    Death Blow

5.    Rally Speed / Alert Stance+

I don´t think LA benefits from both +6STR/MAG skills? You probably want Fiendish Blow and Uncanny Blow.

 

I disagree with the prerequisite to Bishop being Physic. It should be Warp. No reason to have Darting Blow on a mage, methinks. If it has a reasonable MAG stat, it should be a Warlock or a DF.

[windypanda1]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

Agree that pretty much any physical unit would benefit from having it, but I think there are a fair few cases where I'd rather use my combat art slots for something else. Everyone also benefits from having a movement art (with Reposition being the standout of the bunch), and there are also plenty of instances where I want a character to have two or more arts for their main weapon (eg, a generic damaging art and an effective damage art). So I wouldn't say "put curved shot on everyone" so much as "curved shot is a valid choice for everyone, so keep it in mind when considering your options".

You're right, I suppose there is a bit of subtlety that could be had there.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

Manuela also belongs in this conversation, with her excellent speed and charm and her strength in flying and swords. Her drawbacks are her mediocre strength (same growth rate as Ingrid), her lack of access to Sword Avoid +20, and her late joining time. She's not as strong an option as some of the other units here, but she does the job and does it well.

I'll have to try this out, thanks for the suggestion!

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

This isn't something that I would personally want to rely on for any build, especially not ones that aren't using axes and gauntlets naturally. My general assumption is that I don't want to make any build that relies on S or S+ rank to skills or mastering a master tier class, since these come online very late in the game, if at all. It's fine to include them as options for people who are playing on NG+ and/or are willing to grind a lot more than I am, but it would probably be helpful to also have a lower investment alternative listed as well.

I think the build becomes truly S tier once it gets Quick Riposte, but yeah including a lower effort option wouldn't hurt.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I would very rarely put Thyrsus or Caduceus on a Bishop. Not that they aren't excellent, but I always have other characters who want them more. Maybe if I wasn't running any offensive magic users. Or for a turn or two here and there if passing them around would allow for a very specific beneficial play. But as a general rule, no.

I usually run low magic teams with 1 Dark Flier + 1 Bishop so I can spare one of the staffs for the Bishop. They would mostly be equipping the Healing Staff though.

21 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I don´t think LA benefits from both +6STR/MAG skills? You probably want Fiendish Blow and Uncanny Blow.

Death Blow still adds a lot of extra power to Curved Shot. Even considering that Annette is a magic oriented character, it still does a decent chunk of damage. Hit+20 and Uncanny Blow is overkill, but maybe there is a better alternative for the Death Blow slot.

Edited August 21, 2022 by windypanda1

[Dark Holy Elf]

Good stuff. Perhaps the biggest objection I'd have is that Dark Flier is the only offensive mage suggested. While Dark Flier is amazing, there's a huge cost to using a second because there's only one flying +mag battalion. A second Dark Flier is still potentially useful, but they'll be very utility-focused; even Lysithea in such a situation will do less damage than a bog-standard magic Lorenz.

Valkyrie definitely deserves a mention for the range cheese it enables. Being able to strike enemies with high accuracy from range 5-7 is just insane. It can transition to Dark Knight for more move/power at the expense of said range as a player's choice, or to Gremory if more spell charges is desired. I'd put this in A tier as well.

I basically agree with all of lenticular's comments as well.

21 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I disagree with the prerequisite to Bishop being Physic. It should be Warp.

Ehhh, Lysithea doesn't really want to go Bishop, since it turns into a "cast Warp but twiddle your thumbs otherwise" unit (you get two shots, but at 4 move, being able to use the second Warp effectively is tricky anyway), because both her power and move/range are lacking. She's much better served by Valkyrie or Dark Flier in Advanced tier.

On the other hand, Physic alone definitely makes Bishop with its Heal+10 at least a consideration, and it's a strong one for Mercedes in particular.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Chapter 5 can be made easier by recruiting Catherine in Chapter 4. (For Black Eagles Route, just try to overlevel Edelgard.)

Doesn't this involve lots of gifts?

3 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

6. Magic Sniper

Characters: Hanneman, Hubert, Lorenz, Mercedes

Magic Sniper is a bit finicky to use but it brings incredible firepower to the table. Magic Bow Hunter’s Volley is a guaranteed double magic attack, which means it deletes almost everything from the game. Therefore, this build is a good alternative to Dark Knight for the few male mages in the game, namely Hanneman, Hubert, and Lorenz. You can make use of the Physical side for hitting high Res enemies or conserving Magic Bow uses. 

I'm not convinced this is so amazing as to be worth it, given that it's expensive as hell to maintain. In the case of Hubert, you only get this for like 3 chapters. And two of those are back-to-back.

3 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

[Quick Riposte]

The problem with Quick Riposte is that it;'s gated behind mastering a Master tier class - something that I often do not see happen in my runs. How powerful an ability it is means jackshit if you don't get it in a timely fashion.

3 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Class: Bishop

Main Weapon: Maaagic

Accessory: Healing Staff, Thyrsus / Cadaceus Staff

Abilities:

1.    [Fiendish Blow]

2.    [Hit+20]

3.    [Reason Prowess Lv5]

4.    Darting Blow

5.    White Magic Range+1 / Renewal

Okay, why the hell would I have Darting Blow on a Bishop??? If they're mainly going to be helping my units stay alive, then I see no reason whatsoever to go out of my way to have them master Pegasus Knight for Darting Blow.

3 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Lysithea is the best Dark Flier, with a huge offensive spell list, Warp, and 10-15% higher Speed growth than other mages which means more reliable doubling. 

And no Tomefaire to go with those, because she exclusively uses dark magic (Dark Tomefaire is only on Dark Knight).

3 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Class: Barbarossa

Main Weapon: Silver Bow / Killer Bow+ for Enemy Phase, Brave Bow for Player Phase

Accessory: Evasion Ring

Abilities:

1.    [Alert Stance+]

2.    [Bow Prowess Lv5]

3.   [Quick Riposte]

4.    [Close Counter]

5.    Hit+20 / Death Blow

See above for my problem with Quick Riposte. Also, I do not see this as viable outside of NG+.

Also, on dodgetanking: high charm is not optional for it. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[windypanda1]

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Good stuff. Perhaps the biggest objection I'd have is that Dark Flier is the only offensive mage suggested. While Dark Flier is amazing, there's a huge cost to using a second because there's only one flying +mag battalion. A second Dark Flier is still potentially useful, but they'll be very utility-focused; even Lysithea in such a situation will do less damage than a bog-standard magic Lorenz.

Valkyrie definitely deserves a mention for the range cheese it enables. Being able to strike enemies with high accuracy from range 5-7 is just insane. It can transition to Dark Knight for more move/power at the expense of said range as a player's choice, or to Gremory if more spell charges is desired. I'd put this in A tier as well.

Thanks! Valkyrie is definitely something that I wanted to write about along with Bow Knight but I kinda ran out of effort. Disagreed on Gremory, the low reach feels pretty bad to play with although I understand the appeal of more spell charges.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't this involve lots of gifts?

It's not too difficult to get, check Mekkah's Video on it

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem with Quick Riposte is that it;'s gated behind mastering a Master tier class - something that I often do not see happen in my runs. How powerful an ability it is means jackshit if you don't get it in a timely fashion.

Fair enough.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm not convinced this is so amazing as to be worth it, given that it's expensive as hell to maintain. In the case of Hubert, you only get this for like 3 chapters.

Physical Hunter's Volley still has a lot of killing power even on magic units so you don't have to use Magic Bow every battle. Although the maintenance cost definitely makes the build on the lower end of A for sure.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay, why the hell would I have Darting Blow on a Bishop??? If they're mainly going to be helping my units stay alive, then I see no reason whatsoever to go out of my way to have them master Pegasus Knight for Darting Blow.

The ones without brackets are optional slots you can do whatever with. Darting Blow can net some doubles in midgame so I sometimes like to go for it. But yeah it's a bit wack XD. Nothing I put in there would potentially help my units stay alive, I think? Might be wrong.

Edited August 21, 2022 by windypanda1

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

24 minutes ago, windypanda1 said:

Death Blow still adds a lot of extra power to Curved Shot. Even considering that Annette is a magic oriented character, it still does a decent chunk of damage. Hit+20 and Uncanny Blow is overkill, but maybe there is a better alternative for the Death Blow slot.

What da Curved Shot doin?

In the OP you state Annette has serious Hit issues but then Hit+20 and/or Uncanny Blow are overkill? Does not compute. The, admittetly, one time I tried for LA Annette she had Hit+20 and had considerable trouble hitting enemies, even with WAs.

26 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Ehhh, Lysithea doesn't really want to go Bishop, since it turns into a "cast Warp but twiddle your thumbs otherwise" unit (you get two shots, but at 4 move, being able to use the second Warp effectively is tricky anyway), because both her power and move/range are lacking. She's much better served by Valkyrie or Dark Flier in Advanced tier.

Hence my comment disregarding Bishop in general.

27 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

On the other hand, Physic alone definitely makes Bishop with its Heal+10 at least a consideration, and it's a strong one for Mercedes in particular.

I much prefer Mercedes ability to inflict massive damage to everything else she has.

Leave the healing to units such as Annette, Linhardt, Lorenz etc. That way even they will contribute.

[windypanda1]

19 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

What da Curved Shot doin?

In the OP you state Annette has serious Hit issues but then Hit+20 and/or Uncanny Blow are overkill? Does not compute. The, admittetly, one time I tried for LA Annette she had Hit+20 and had considerable trouble hitting enemies, even with WAs.

Curved Shot is there for 3 Range Chip damage like every other physical build. Helps soften up stronger enemies.

She doesn't have serious Hit issues, in the OP it merely says its accuracy is lower. I've only ran the build twice myself, but Hit+20, Accuracy from Battalion, and Accuracy Ring combined was good enough hit rate except for Sword enemies. Maybe Uncanny Blow would free up the battalion and accessory slot though.

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. I was kinda worried the post was gonna be buried but I'm glad to see people do care.

Edited August 21, 2022 by windypanda1

[haarhaarhaar]

Nice post, really appreciate the effort put in

4 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

3. War Master

Characters: M!Byleth, Felix, Balthus, Dedue, Raphael, Alois, Caspar, Gilbert

You do mention getting Brawl Avoid +20/ having a fists dodge tank in B tier, but I'm surprised you don't rank it as high as, if not higher than this build. Admittedly, some of the people you've listed here (especially late joiners like Alois/Gilbert) aren't gonna master War Monk and War Master that quickly, but I think Brawl Avoid +20 is more worthwhile than a stop-gap FIF, since you plan on ending the build in War Master and FIF doesn't carry over. Brawl Avoid +20 instantly makes your gauntlets user a dodge tank, and natural levelling keeps them dodging (of course, use battalions/items to keep the advantage), and will help preserve QR when you get it. Fists also avoid the accuracy issues than axes can have (compounded by some of these characters) and makes the crit build more reliable. I guess just wondering why you think there's such a difference between these builds.

5 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

6. Magic Sniper

Characters: Hanneman, Hubert, Lorenz, Mercedes

I'm a big big fan of the magic sniper build, but definitely don't undersell the investment side of it. It isn't quite as bad as @Shadow Mir tells it, but you need B Bows and Arcane Crystal for a Magic Bow to even consider using this build - up until that point only Lorenz on this list has much of a chance dealing physical damage with bows. So it'll endure a fair few chapters of uselessness (till Ch. 8/9 at least) where you have to put in effort in roundabout ways to get the character's Bow rank up. It's brilliant once it gets going, but it only starts regularly killing when you get Hunter's Volley - before that point, it's chipping at the level of a unit's top spells. In Hubert's specific case (although his massive mag stat makes him great for this build on paper) it may just be easier to let him spam Frozen Lance/dark magic and stay useful for the entire run. 

5 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

1. Tanky Paladin

You might want to include DK Jeritza as a sub-note in this one - it's a similar kind of thing, except Jeritza has magic access and Counterattack. He doesn't have Swift Strikes, but the Scythe of Sariel and Lance Crit + 10 isn't far away. 

 

And on a separate note, what do you think of Dancer (either as a standard build, or just for Sword Avoid +20) - I'm a little surprised to see it not make your list of notable builds. 

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Thanks! Valkyrie is definitely something that I wanted to write about along with Bow Knight but I kinda ran out of effort. Disagreed on Gremory, the low reach feels pretty bad to play with although I understand the appeal of more spell charges.

 

Yeah Gremory's move is a problem for sure, although less of a problem than War Master's IMO since your range is potentially so huge. Gremory's value fluctuates a lot based on the character (spells with 1 or 2 uses benefit a lot) and also the map (how long do you expect it will take). Fortunately, it's almost free to qualify for (pretty much any mage is going to reach 70% minimum) so you can use it as much or as little as you want.

 

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

Hence my comment disregarding Bishop in general.

I much prefer Mercedes ability to inflict massive damage to everything else she has.

Leave the healing to units such as Annette, Linhardt, Lorenz etc. That way even they will contribute.

Yeah it's pretty fair to disregard Bishop. The best thing you can say about it is it's really cheap for characters who want to build their faith rank up a lot (Linhardt, Mercedes, Manuela) and if you find that most of what they're doing is Physic/Warp/Fortify, then Bishop is arguably serving them better than the offensive mage classes. I definitely think it's Linhardt's best class. Everyone else is debatable, but I at least see the appeal for Mercedes and Manuela (though in the latter's case it's mostly because her skill situation puts her in a very limited spot for options, sadly).

Linhardt's a good healer of course, but I don't find Annette or Lorenz good at it, because their healing is range 1 and they're stuck in 4 move classes until Level 20 (Annette with DLC) or 30. This really limits their flexibility. Granted, I find any other random mages with Physic (e.g. Marianne, Dorothea) to be effective secondary healers regardless of their class, as long as they keep spell access.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Physical Hunter's Volley still has a lot of killing power even on magic units so you don't have to use Magic Bow every battle. Although the maintenance cost definitely makes the build on the lower end of A for sure.

Honestly, I'd imagine that having a mage try to transition into Sniper would be painful as hell. I don't even want to imagine....

[LoneRecon400]

If you're going to talk about low investment builds, I'm surpised you didn't bring up Vengence. That combat art alone allows a unit to be able to ohko the overwhelming majority of enemies even on 0% growths.

You should probably also emphasize putting on Battalion Wrath on a dodgetank. The difference between one that has it and one that doesn't can be pretty massive. 

Some nitpicks:

-Dimtri shouldn't go Bow Knight because that'll result in losing 70 hit when countering seige magic users with Retribution. Paladin is a nice simple class that'll enable him well enough.

-If you're going to get Claude to Alert Stance, you'd be better off using Battalion Wrath. Claude is the best B Wrath Dodgetank in the game due to fail naught giving a guaranteed way to dodge enemy gambits.

-Close Counter isn't really necessary on him, as Retribution allows Bow users to counter at 1 range.

-Charm growth really doesn't matter for dodgetank. Most enemies don't have high rank authority battalions to compete with your B Rank ones for a really long time. Even by the late game when they do, you can stack tea parties on them to reach the maximum avoid against them.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 Perhaps the biggest objection I'd have is that Dark Flier is the only offensive mage suggested. While Dark Flier is amazing, there's a huge cost to using a second because there's only one flying +mag battalion. A second Dark Flier is still potentially useful, but they'll be very utility-focused; even Lysithea in such a situation will do less damage than a bog-standard magic Lorenz.

I object to this. Even without Nuvelle, as long as a Dark Flier can double they can one round enemies pretty easily. Case in point.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

Manuela also belongs in this conversation, with her excellent speed and charm and her strength in flying and swords. Her drawbacks are her mediocre strength (same growth rate as Ingrid), her lack of access to Sword Avoid +20, and her late joining time. She's not as strong an option as some of the other units here, but she does the job and does it well.

How so? Manuela joins in Chapter 8 with only D in Flying and authority with no relevant weapon ranks or arts. It takes her longer than most other units to get going, and even once she does there's nothing to distinguish her from other units who could've been doing her job several chapters ago. Speed growth alone does not make for a good dodge tank.

Edited August 21, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[windypanda1]

  

38 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Nice post, really appreciate the effort put in

You do mention getting Brawl Avoid +20/ having a fists dodge tank in B tier, but I'm surprised you don't rank it as high as, if not higher than this build. Admittedly, some of the people you've listed here (especially late joiners like Alois/Gilbert) aren't gonna master War Monk and War Master that quickly, but I think Brawl Avoid +20 is more worthwhile than a stop-gap FIF, since you plan on ending the build in War Master and FIF doesn't carry over. Brawl Avoid +20 instantly makes your gauntlets user a dodge tank, and natural levelling keeps them dodging (of course, use battalions/items to keep the advantage), and will help preserve QR when you get it. Fists also avoid the accuracy issues than axes can have (compounded by some of these characters) and makes the crit build more reliable. I guess just wondering why you think there's such a difference between these builds.

Thanks! Brawl Dodgetank survives enemy phase pretty well but the evasion is not at the level where I feel super comfortable with sending them out (Around 30 enemy accuracy), and I think just eating the hit and countering strong with axe is preferable. Honestly might be sleeping on the build though, admittedly I've used it only once and decided it was worth including.

 

38 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I'm a big big fan of the magic sniper build, but definitely don't undersell the investment side of it. It isn't quite as bad as @Shadow Mir tells it, but you need B Bows and Arcane Crystal for a Magic Bow to even consider using this build - up until that point only Lorenz on this list has much of a chance dealing physical damage with bows. So it'll endure a fair few chapters of uselessness (till Ch. 8/9 at least) where you have to put in effort in roundabout ways to get the character's Bow rank up. It's brilliant once it gets going, but it only starts regularly killing when you get Hunter's Volley - before that point, it's chipping at the level of a unit's top spells. In Hubert's specific case (although his massive mag stat makes him great for this build on paper) it may just be easier to let him spam Frozen Lance/dark magic and stay useful for the entire run. 

Simply might just be a matter of moving the build to B rank. I'll reconsider.

 

38 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

And on a separate note, what do you think of Dancer (either as a standard build, or just for Sword Avoid +20) - I'm a little surprised to see it not make your list of notable builds. 

I was originally planning to write about this but I kinda didn't know what to write and I scrapped it. Dancer is a pretty great class. I usually go for good faith spell list to cram in a bit of extra utility. Something like Raphael Dancer and Dedue Dancer is unironically pretty decent since they can take a stray hit. Doesn't matter too much what character you go though since you're Dancing like 95% of the time. For Abilities, Special Dance is mandatory and then IDK.

 

20 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

If you're going to talk about low investment builds, I'm surpised you didn't bring up Vengence. That combat art alone allows a unit to be able to ohko the overwhelming majority of enemies even on 0% growths.

I did talk about it a bit in relation to Bernadetta. Not sure how I would make into a whole section.

 

20 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You should probably also emphasize putting on Battalion Wrath on a dodgetank. The difference between one that has it and one that doesn't can be pretty massive. 

Battalion Wrath is something I haven't really played around with too much, so I don't feel qualified to write about it. I'll try it out more.

Edited August 21, 2022 by windypanda1

[haarhaarhaar]

16 minutes ago, windypanda1 said:

I was originally planning to write about this but I kinda didn't know what to write and I scrapped it. Dancer is a pretty great class. I usually go for good faith spell list to cram in a bit of extra utility. Something like Raphael Dancer and Dedue Dancer is unironically pretty decent since they can take a stray hit. Doesn't matter too much what character you go though since you're Dancing like 95% of the time. For Abilities, Special Dance is mandatory and then IDK.

For me, the toss-up is whether to have a dancer, or a sword avoid build. I normally land on Dancer for Maddening (units like Yuri, Ignatz, or most female characters do just fine) but once upon a time the meta was all about Ferdinand using Sword Avoid +20 with his personal - maybe that's still popular? 

[windypanda1]

10 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

For me, the toss-up is whether to have a dancer, or a sword avoid build. I normally land on Dancer for Maddening (units like Yuri, Ignatz, or most female characters do just fine) but once upon a time the meta was all about Ferdinand using Sword Avoid +20 with his personal - maybe that's still popular? 

Yeah definitely, Sword Avo+20 is huge for dodgetanking. If you get this thing on someone like Edelgard then it’s basically GG.

I didn’t mean to imply that any build not mentioned here is not notable, it’s just that it takes a lot of effort to playtest and write stuff.

I guess I could potentially write about: Valkyrie, Bow Knight, Dancer

Edited August 21, 2022 by windypanda1

[LoneRecon400]

19 minutes ago, windypanda1 said:

I did talk about it a bit in relation to Bernadetta. Not sure how I would make into a whole section.

Battalion Wrath is something I haven't really played around with too much, so I don't feel qualified to write about it. I'll try it out more.

You could write about how Vengence is the only thing a unit needs. They don't need class masteries, weapon ranks, or even levels or good weapons to be able to one shot 90% of enemies. The fact they can also easily use battalions with bad stats but good utitly like Impregnable Wall is icing on the came.

Here's a good practical demonstration of Battalion Wrath.

[haarhaarhaar]

5 minutes ago, windypanda1 said:

I didn’t mean to imply that any build not mentioned here is not notable, it’s just that it takes a lot of effort to playtest and write stuff.

Of course!

5 minutes ago, windypanda1 said:

I guess I could potentially write about: Valkyrie, Bow Knight, Dancer

Maybe worth mentioning Frozen Lance as well - I know you prefer Lightning Axe to it, but Hubert and Marianne are killing with that for all of Part 1, and lots of Part 2 if they're in Lancefaire classes. 

[lenticular]

6 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

The ones without brackets are optional slots you can do whatever with. Darting Blow can net some doubles in midgame so I sometimes like to go for it. But yeah it's a bit wack XD. Nothing I put in there would potentially help my units stay alive, I think? Might be wrong.

HP +5 and Mag +2 are always decent fallback options for a Bishop. They aren't the best skills, but they do help out and also have the benefit of being extremely low investment to pick up.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah it's pretty fair to disregard Bishop. The best thing you can say about it is it's really cheap for characters who want to build their faith rank up a lot (Linhardt, Mercedes, Manuela) and if you find that most of what they're doing is Physic/Warp/Fortify, then Bishop is arguably serving them better than the offensive mage classes. I definitely think it's Linhardt's best class. Everyone else is debatable, but I at least see the appeal for Mercedes and Manuela (though in the latter's case it's mostly because her skill situation puts her in a very limited spot for options, sadly).

Agreed. The two things that Bishop really offers are the doubled spell charges and the extra healing. If it's the doubled charges that you're after, then Gremory does the same thing but with increased movement and higher magic stat. And if it's the healing that you're after... well, how often does that actually come up? It isn't never, but -- assuming the use of a Healing Staff -- I find that the extra healing from Bishop is mostly just overkill. So even on characters where I'd consider Bishop (eg Mercedes, Hapi), it mostly ends up just being a stepping stone on the way to Gremory. Linhardt is the big and obvious exception, since he doesn't have access to Gremory. I'm not really a fan of Bishop for Manuela, since that's very much a build that uses Warp and does basically nothing else.

4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Charm growth really doesn't matter for dodgetank. Most enemies don't have high rank authority battalions to compete with your B Rank ones for a really long time. Even by the late game when they do, you can stack tea parties on them to reach the maximum avoid against them.

Stacking tea parties is certainly possible, but given that a lot of players (and I count myself among them) dislike tea parties, I think it's pretty reasonable to want to list builds and strategies that avoid ever having to use them. It's similar to grinding strategies, in a way. "Here's one option that you can do, but here's another possibility for if you don't want to do that thing."

4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

How so? Manuela joins in Chapter 8 with only D in Flying and authority with no relevant weapon ranks or arts. It takes her longer than most other units to get going, and even once she does there's nothing to distinguish her from other units who could've been doing her job several chapters ago. Speed growth alone does not make for a good dodge tank.

Sure. which is why I did specifically say that she isn't as good as others listed and that her late joining time was a weakness. And she doesn't just have a good speed growth. She also has a strength in flying, and excellent charm (which you might not care about, but I do). You're right that there are other units who are better choices, but if that's the criteria that we're using, then we'd never use most characters. Stuff like Sniper Ashe and War Master Gilbert are also far from optimal, but are worth noting down anyway since a. they can still perform the job decently and b. they're good choices if you are choosing to use those units.

[LoneRecon400]

13 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Sure. which is why I did specifically say that Maneula isn't as good as others listed and that her late joining time was a weakness.

Here's a question: When exactly do you think Manuela will be able to hit Alert Stance +?

Because by mathing it out and basing on my experince, I came to the conclusion there's a 4 chapter chapter difference from Manuela learns it compared to a in house student who is neutral in flight.

Thats a pretty significant gap in performance if that were true. But those calculations is almost entirely dependent on many battles a unit faces. So when would you expect Manuela to hit Alert Stance and many fights in a flying class would you expect her to be in?

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You could write about how Vengence is the only thing a unit needs. They don't need class masteries, weapon ranks, or even levels or good weapons to be able to one shot 90% of enemies

But they do need to have no offence on turn 1, require to specifically draw an enemy (but not too many!) to get down to low HP, may need specific extra investment to get to the HP range you desire (i.e. Blessing or Guard Adjutant), can only one-round at melee, will be one-rounded themselves by everything thereafter, and need to be careful of a host of incidental healing effects (including being out of range of any castings of Fortify). I think Vengeance is a good CA for intermediate tier, but later on it becomes pretty easy to one-round things without all of these caveats, if you're making good builds like the ones proposed in this thread.

5 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

I was originally planning to write about this but I kinda didn't know what to write and I scrapped it. Dancer is a pretty great class. I usually go for good faith spell list to cram in a bit of extra utility. Something like Raphael Dancer and Dedue Dancer is unironically pretty decent since they can take a stray hit. Doesn't matter too much what character you go though since you're Dancing like 95% of the time. For Abilities, Special Dance is mandatory and then IDK.

 

Since you're dancing on every player phase, some important things to consider for dancer are things they can do without using a turn:

• -linked attack support: Dorothea (Eagles, and Lions to a lesser extent) and Hilda (Deer) are the best for this, with their siege tomes. They can hand out +10 hit and +20 gambit hit to a huge radius. If using another Dancer, keep in mind three-range weapons like the Longbow, forged Levin Sword, and Thoron/Mire/Death.
• -evasion: with Sword Avoid +20, dancers can achieve very high evasion figures, allowing them to draw in enemies when nobody else is in range to do so. Ferdinand is the best for this role IMO, because of his personal (DImitri also works for similar reasons, but it requires giving up all the other things Dimitri brings to the table). Failing that, someone with high speed/charm and a sword boon is your best bet, e.g. Yuri.
• -personal skills which support allies (such as Hilda's and Flayn's) are a thought, although the low range on these makes them less important considerations than the previous two IMO
• All other things being equal, a riding boon is nice because aside from Special Dance / Sword Avoid / Sword Prowess, Move+1 is another highly useful skill a Dancer can reasonably get. I'd weight this notably higher on non-CF routes due to the extra chapters. Since you won't gain Riding exp once you get to Dancer, this will need some active investment, though going through Chapter 6-8 as a cavalier (with swords, naturally!) can help a bit.

Finally it's also worth mentioning that Dancer is a tool which is simultaneously so powerful and low-investment, so if you're doing non-CF I think it's a good idea to select one of the units available early in Chapter 13, to make that map easier. If you're choosing between "a Level 6 Ashe you benched when you recruited Lysithea/Dorothea/Catherine/etc."  and "Dancer Ashe who can dodge most things if on a thicket and provide Byleth extra actions" it's a no-brainer.

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You could write about how Vengence is the only thing a unit needs. They don't need class masteries, weapon ranks, or even levels or good weapons to be able to one shot 90% of enemies.

But then you're useless on turn 1, you need to set it up, you cannot afford to be exposed to literally anything (including passive healing effects), etc etc... In all honesty, I cannot see Vengeance as nearly being as good as you're trying to hype it up to be, with all the conditions it needs you to fulfill to be effective

8 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Charm growth really doesn't matter for dodgetank. Most enemies don't have high rank authority battalions to compete with your B Rank ones for a really long time. Even by the late game when they do, you can stack tea parties on them to reach the maximum avoid against them.

You CAN in the same vein as it is possible to go straight for the last boss in BotW, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD. Likewise, I'd honestly consider a build that requires me to shit away a lot of activity points and time on tea parties to be effective to be far inferior to one that doesn't.

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd honestly consider a build that requires me to shit away a lot of activity points and time on tea parties to be effective to be far inferior to one that doesn't.

It's literally 2 activity points a month. Sure in the early game it's not worth it, but when youre sitting on 8 activity points? You can afford it.

Really, the best to handle enemy gambits is to take them out or not enter their range at all. But people like taking the risk, so I'm just pointing that charm growth isn't that relevant.

Edited August 22, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[windypanda1]

It's true that you can increase Charm a lot through Tea Parties. Like lenticular said, I don't really like them so I almost never do it. It is a fair point though.

Low Charm on a dodgetank is a detriment for sure but not to the point where they are unusable, I think. High natural Charm for the best results.

Edited August 22, 2022 by windypanda1

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I'm a fan of having this sort of list! It's a very cool idea, and I generally agree with what you've put up there. A few critiques, though:

16 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

The most difficult points in Maddening are probably Chapter 5 (Miklan), Chapter 13 (Hunting By Daybreak), and Endgame.

I would add Chapter 1 to the pile. The enemy quality is quite high, and you have very few tools available. Worse yet, you can't Turnwheel here, so if Teach or your Lord dies, it's a Game Over.

16 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Black-Sand Steel can be bought infinitely from a Merchant in Garreg Mach. If you’re going to use Chalice of Beginnings, any weapon type should be fine.

Why not cast Retribution on Dimitri, via Kingdom Archers or Indech Swordfighters? That way, he's free to use a Critical or Accuracy Ring, alongside whichever weapon type he likes. He can forsake Close Counter for Str +2 or Dex +4, too.

16 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Optionally, you can get Sword Avo+20 from Dancer Certification which will make the character nigh untouchable and at that point you’re smooth sailing for victory.

Giving up your Dancer sounds like you're forgoing some quick clears on Maddening. Especially in the abundant "kill commander" maps, where dodging a bunch of foes is far less important than getting to the one super-strong foe as quickly as possible. Plus, you lose out on the Special Dance boosts, which can assist your bosskill unit further.

16 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Main Weapon: Mainly Steel Lance+ for durability, but Spear of Assal and Killer Lance+ are great

Relic Lances go great with Swift Strikes, too. Luín is more accurate, while the Lance-of-Ruin hits harder. You'll burn through them quickly, but it's not like Umbral Steel is in short supply or anything.

16 hours ago, windypanda1 said:

Paladin -> Great Knight is HP+3, Str-1, Dex-2, Spd-3, Def+6, Res-2, and Mov-1. I'd say it's not worth it but maybe you like the extra bulk.

Building off of this, I would say "defensive tank" deserves its own spot in B-tier. Basically, a unit who goes either Fortress Knight or Great Knight, and who essentially functions as an invincible lure for physical enemies. Here's a build I'm doing with Raphael on my current Maddening run:

Spoiler

Class: Great Knight

Weapons: Brave Axe/Lance, Steel Axe/Lance, Killer Axe/Lance, Short Spear/Axe

Equippable: Ochain Shield OR Seiros Shield

Battalion: any that boosts Protection

Combat Arts: Smite/Reposition, Smash/Tempest Lance, Helm Splitter/Knightkneeler

Skills:

1. [Axe/Lance Prowess]

2. [HP +5]

3. [Def +2]

4. Lance/Swordbreaker, or Hit +20

5. Str +2, or Death Blow, or Pavise, or Aegis

Basically, there's two ways this build can be run - with Lances, or with Axes. If I'm going into a Sword-heavy map (like Chapter 13, or the Ferdsithea paralogue), I use the former; otherwise, I go with the latter. This build will be doing very little on player phase, outside maybe offering chip with a Brave Lance, or repositioning an ally. The crux is maximizing defensive ability, so fast foes like Swordmasters and Grapplers are doing single-digit damage (or less). Maybe you can secure damage against them on the counterattack, too. Point is, next player phase, they're much closer for your powerful mages and comvat artists, who can finish 'em off.

Impregnable Wall somewhat simulates this effect, but youneed to cast the gambit every turn. Whereas, the defensive tank is self-sufficient. You can even use Healing Focus to neglect all need for external healing.

Good candidates for this sort of build are those with a high natural defense growth , and proficiency in Axe and Armor. Balthus, Raphael, Dedue, and Gilbert are most obvious, but units like Edelgard, Caspar, and Ferdinand aren't out of the question.

One more valuable Maddening niche, albeit not exactly a "build", is the Rallybot. Units with the right Rallies can be great for setting up your bosskill unit to do their business. Most important are Strength (Annette, Balthus, Raphael, Alois) and Speed (Annette, Ignatz), but Charm (Dorothea, Manuela), Magic (Hubert, Constance, Ingrid, Hanneman), and Dex (Igmatz, Ferdinand, Hapi) all have their uses as well. If you're going for a bosskill, and Rallies could make the difference between one-rounding and not, then I highly recommend bringing along the necessary Rallybots. They're doing more for you, in that context, than any extra combat units.

13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay, why the hell would I have Darting Blow on a Bishop??? If they're mainly going to be helping my units stay alive, then I see no reason whatsoever to go out of my way to have them master Pegasus Knight for Darting Blow.

Agreed. Magic +2 is way better on any Bishop. It can increase their healing potential, as well as Warp/Rescue range. Not to mention the damage boost.

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Ferdinand is the best for this role IMO, because of his personal (DImitri also works for similar reasons, but it requires giving up all the other things Dimitri brings to the table).

The biggest other things Dimitri brings to the table, Battalion Wrath/Vantage, are enemy-phase exclusive. So, he can Dance on player phase, then park himself in enemy territory and watch the bodies fall. Lacking a faire or crit-boosting skill is unfortunate, but his innate Strength is high enough that he should be hitting hard regardless, even as a Dancer.

You do miss out on Atrocity and Brave Lance Paladin funtimes, though.