The Official Remaster a Smash Bros Veteran Idea Dump Thread

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You hear that? Silence. This is the rare moment in human history since 1999 where there's no new Smash Bros game announced to be in development. That means the future of this series is totally up in the air. While the speculation of what's next for Smash is a fascinating topic, one thing's for sure, we'll be seeing some returning characters. So I wanted a place where people could post how they would update those characters for a new game. It can be any minor suggestions like: Shulk should have Mythra's Foresight mechanic on his dodges when Speed is activated and Bowser's roaring Up Taunt should be a laughing one instead. Or it can be a full on essay on why Mario desperately needs a newer, better Down Aerial. Ideas for skins, taunts, move replacements, or even frame data changes. Whatever comes to your mind!

What I do NOT want to see are responses to other posts with "No way THAT character is returning to a new game". This is not a speculation thread, this is a pure wish fulfillment thread. As I said, we don't know the future of Smash Bros, so this is definitively the perfect time to look at Smash Ultimate's characters and brainstorm. Now I feel like I low-key promised a short essay on why Mario needs a new D-Air:

Spoiler

I despise Mario's D-air. I vaguely remember a Smash Dojo post on Mario's new Down Special (F.L.U.D.D.), where Sakurai explains he turned the old "Tornado" move into a down air. Except this move is no tornado. It's low damage, people fall out of it all the time (which is genuinely rare for multihit attacks as of Smash Ultimate), and the animation just looks bad considering Mario having a jumping spin move is a classic reference that ought to be represented in a satisfying attack. Of course, at high levels of competitive play, players will occasionally use this move - not a single Aerial in competitive Smash Bros can be said to be useless due to the nature of the game, but this move is certainly pushing that statement. I'm certain if you gave Mario his 64/Melee D-air, he'd find a better use for it. It can be like Kirby's drill kick and softly meteor opponents, or it can be like Fox's and just be reliable to land with, potentially beginning a combo string or leading to a grab.

But if it were up to me, Mario's new D-air is already on Doc. A satisfying stomp. That's a very Mario move that feels unrepresented right? I mean, every character can 'footstool', but Mario is the Jump Man. No need to make it as strong as Doc's (or stronger than his existing F-air spike), make it a soft, quick meteor with a classic mario stomp noise when it connects. And also have it give Mario a boost upward - like he just stomped on a goomba. Think of the sick twitch clips where Mario goes for a deep edgeguard or the opponent misses their edgeguard on HIM and makes it back ONLY because the bounce allowed him to make it back.

People tell me Mario is a "good character for learning Smash Bros". I disagree with that statement for a lot of reasons, But the most pertinent one for this writeup is that he has several moves whose best utility is difficult to figure out as a first time player. Like his cape. Oh I'll get to his cape another day. Mario's current D-air is definitely a move whose utility is not clear from the first time you've hit with it. After all it's a Down Aerial that doesn't reach below Mario at all. A satisfying stomp can be a move that demonstrates to new players how important spiking is while also better representing how Mario should behave in a fighting game. A soft stomp would also give Mario a cool, Luigi-esque grab game (but without any instant kill move) where the victim goes up, comes back down and Mario can continue the sequence with a regrab or further Uairs depending on damage percents. Something he can do off a grab that isn't just throw > Uairs. Sakurai likes to claim that fist fighters have demonstrably better throws than swordfighters as a balancing mechanism. I like that idea a lot, but taking a look at modern Smash you can see they haven't quite followed through on this philosophy. Getting grabbed by a sword fighter is no less dangerous than a fist fighter in my experience. 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[AnonymousSpeed]

Frame 1 Falcon Punch

Furthermore:

• Ike is now voiced by Jason Adkins in all versions of Smash Brothers forever, even in Japan and Taiwan
• Roy can shoot a fireball projectile for one of his special moves
• Tether recoveries are back, baybee

Edited October 15, 2022 by AnonymousSpeed

[Vexal]

2 characters in the original cast are in dire need of a rework imo; Samus and Kirby. Most of Samus's kit is just straightup bad even from a casual pov, to the point I'd say just start from scratch

Kirby however, is a bit more complicated. Kirby is.....very much not representative of actual Kirby, and if we were to redesign Kirby's moveset now? We'd probably get something that pulls more from the source material, though a few of Kirby's moves would be left alone

 

Spoiler

• Jab 1 and 2 - This move is fine, leave as is
• Multi jab - Leave as is or replace with the bell swing combo
• Ftilt - Changed to the basic hammer swing from the Kirby series
• Dtilt - Changed to the Sword slide attack. Additional inputs allow you to do the followups that have been in the recent Kirby titles. Low recovery and input window to allow you to switch to your other moves without dropping the combo
• Utilt - Leave the same. This move is both fine and is iconic to Kirby's playstyle anyways
• Dash Attack - Changed to the hammer's dash attack
• Fsmash - Keep the same or replace with Artist's brush
• Dsmash - Keep the same or replace with Bell's attack that hits both sides
• Usmash - Keep the same
• Nair - Keep the same, but extend the range similar to how it was in the games with the Smash ability. Alternatively, replace with Doctor's aerial spin
• Fair - Either keep the same or give Doctor's ranged attack
• Dair - Keep it the same
• Uair - keep the same
• Neutral Special - Keep the same
• Side Special -  Replace with Jet
• Up Special - Replace with Hi Jump
• Down Special - Replace with Mic, which is tied to a tri-segmented meter. Getting hits in with copied abilities fills the meter more than with the moves Kirby has
• Final Smash - Leave as is or replace with Crash
• Adjust Kirby's air speed to be a little faster than his ground speed, ground speed stays the same relative to other characters

 

[Jotari]

I've already posted two redesign topics here, for Ganondorf and Samus respectively

 

But really the thing I want more than anything for a new Smash Bros is the return of, and full implementation of, custom specials. Yeah, custom specials were kind of half assed in Smash 4. A lot of them were useless, minor variations and the random drop nature of them made them frustrating to obtain and difficult to implement in tournaments. But the core idea of giving characters alternate attacks, I think that's a great one, and I'd love to see characters get fully realized cusotm specials on the level of Palutena and the Mii Fighters. Though for the sake of development, I think either one alternate custom for each special attack (for a total of eight) is better, or, to shake things up a bit more, seven special moves in general, but you can assign which button to put them on (so if you want Belmont's Holy Water to be a Side Special because it's similar to Ness's PK Fire, then you have that option to reassign it). In addition to just changing up gameplay and revitalizing old characters, it's also a great way to implement attacks and concepts that have become part of older characters identity after they first debuted in Smash. I've went to the effort of coming up with alternate special moves for every character currently in the game.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CSjxITPNS-r1RHHbQWq3hKyiIvg1p__HuOO3EGVjFuY/edit#gid=0

My dedication to fidelity to the original series make some of them impractical, but I think there are a lot of good ideas there.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Vexal said:

2 characters in the original cast are in dire need of a rework imo; Samus and Kirby. Most of Samus's kit is just straightup bad even from a casual pov, to the point I'd say just start from scratch

Kirby however, is a bit more complicated. Kirby is.....very much not representative of actual Kirby, and if we were to redesign Kirby's moveset now? We'd probably get something that pulls more from the source material, though a few of Kirby's moves would be left alone

 

  Reveal hidden contents

• Jab 1 and 2 - This move is fine, leave as is
• Multi jab - Leave as is or replace with the bell swing combo
• Ftilt - Changed to the basic hammer swing from the Kirby series
• Dtilt - Changed to the Sword slide attack. Additional inputs allow you to do the followups that have been in the recent Kirby titles. Low recovery and input window to allow you to switch to your other moves without dropping the combo
• Utilt - Leave the same. This move is both fine and is iconic to Kirby's playstyle anyways
• Dash Attack - Changed to the hammer's dash attack
• Fsmash - Keep the same or replace with Artist's brush
• Dsmash - Keep the same or replace with Bell's attack that hits both sides
• Usmash - Keep the same
• Nair - Keep the same, but extend the range similar to how it was in the games with the Smash ability. Alternatively, replace with Doctor's aerial spin
• Fair - Either keep the same or give Doctor's ranged attack
• Dair - Keep it the same
• Uair - keep the same
• Neutral Special - Keep the same
• Side Special -  Replace with Jet
• Up Special - Replace with Hi Jump
• Down Special - Replace with Mic, which is tied to a tri-segmented meter. Getting hits in with copied abilities fills the meter more than with the moves Kirby has
• Final Smash - Leave as is or replace with Crash
• Adjust Kirby's air speed to be a little faster than his ground speed, ground speed stays the same relative to other characters

 

Forgive the double post, Serenes is being Serenes with its errors

Some different thoughts on Kirby.

I think Down Tilt really needs to be Kirby's slide. Kirby has a Megaman/Cloud/Sephiroth style slide in almost every Kirby game, I think every traditional Kirby game I've played.

Stone, if it is to remain, should be have some damage frames upon leaving it, like in the Crystal Shards, to make it a safer attack to use. An alternate idea would be to remap it to his Down Aerial, as that's basically it's only use in Smash Bros (and, to some extent, Kirby's own games too).

I've also been thinking the Beam attack gained from Waddle Dees is a pretty noticable absence in his moveset that could work well as a forward or back aerial. kirby's ground attacks are largely form his games, being taken from the Fighter, Ninja and Suplex powers, but his aerials seem to lack any real basis (though maybe for forward aerial is from one of the aformentioned powers, I think?). If his aerials were something like

*NAir->Sword Spin (he already has a rotating spinning NAir)

*BAir->Beam

*FAir->Doctor Long Range (don't actually know this one, have to look it up)

*DAir->Stone

*UAir->Something else IDK, can't think of anything now

Then he would have colourful powers based moves for all his aerials that would generally look better, be more inspired and, hopefully, be better with more reach and zoning capabilities.

If we're going to give Kirby a proper recovery, then I think the Wing ability is better than High Jump, which is just lack luster visually. But honestly I'm fine with Final Cutter, though I would make it so, when using it on the ground, Kirby does the initial slices before finishing off with the proto-Aether part.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If you ask me Donkey Kong is the most deserving of an update out of the original 12. Because look:

Spoiler

His moveset is critically low on actual references, and his gameplay archetype just feels sort of...un-defined compared to other heavyweights. He's a big boy with big damage, infamously spike-able recovery, and his super heavy status makes him combo food where you can't play the game for entire seconds. My Donkey Kong would be somewhat less heavy and powerful, but more well rounded with a projectile, a greater emphasis on his grab, better tools for landing, and a way more threatening offstage game where he can press an advantage for early KOs and not have to win neutral so many more times than his opponent. He'd probably still be combo food and struggle with projectiles by virtue of his size. But hopefully the end result is a character that can press advantages harder while still being punished harshly for mistakes.

Moves

• His Up Special is a war crime. I'm going to extend my arms and spin like a helicopter is the sort of cartoony nonsense you could throw onto any character. But Donkey Kong's lone recovery move should have been obvious, and I assume wasn't implemented into the first game due to some technical issue or time constraint. Blast Barrels. It's simple, if you press Up B, Donkey Kong disappears into a barrel for a moment and fires straight upward at high velocity. But if you hold the button, the barrel will point forward 45 degrees, reset, point backward, reset, and if the player hasn't released before the final tick the barrel pops and Donkey Kong falls to his death, allowing three total opportunities to fire straight up.  There's no super armor or I frames from the launch, DK can be spiked if you nail the timing, but with so much variance on the timing, it won't be as free as spiking his current recovery. If the barrel is attacked with a strong enough move (say, 15%?), it will blast Donkey Kong in the currently pointed direction, but at drastically reduced distance.
  • If we really want we can keep the current Up B's move on the ground. Because it looks cool and its armor is useful for calling out people's landings and shield pressure.
• Remove all of DK's redundant throws. Upon landing a grab, DK immediately goes into a cargo throw state with no option to pummel. I would make it way easier to break out at 0%, but also have a progress bar to indicate when the victim is about to break out so that DK can always throw them at the last moment.
• Replace F-tilt with a one armed vertical slam that will bury opponents and spike somebody who's hanging too long at the edge.
• Make F-air with his current aerial Down B. Add a bongo noise to each slap and a landing hitbox. 
• Replace N-air with a shortened version of his current Air Up B, giving him a lasting multihit to knock people away.
• D-air is now a stall-then-fall. Rambi the Rhino's crate appears above DK, which he clambers on top of as it breaks and he and Rambi fall to the ground. Very powerful, but also laggy enough that you can't just use every time you're sent airborne.
• Grounded Down B is unchanged, but in the air, it's an air grab. When successful you immediately enter Cargo Throw state. This gives him an answer to platform camping, counters, and maybe even super armor recoveries with excellent timing.
• Side B is now a barrel throw. The barrel is about as tall as Pichu and travels at around DK's running speed. They would be easy to avoid, but also force jumps, which Donkey Kong can deliberately respond to. Only one barrel can be active at a time, pressing Side B again prematurely will result in DK making his confused shrugging taunt animation. 
  • I'm not a fan of Headbutt. Another context-less move they just threw on Donkey Kong and never updated. It's tempting to put on Donkey Kong's coconut gun that fires in spurts, but it's more iconic to have the monkey throw barrels that roll along the ground.
• Donkey Kong's Dash Attack should send him careening over a ledge. Complete the reference, Sakurai. And if he's holding jump, he'll do his single jump (not double jump) once the move's animation finishes.

Aesthetics

• First things first, lose the monkey sounds and give him his actual voice actor. Donkey Kong sounding the way he does may have seemed appropriate if we were exclusively drawing from the DKC SNES trilogy, but Smash 64 predated Donkey Kong 64 where he was first given a voice. Imagine how funny it would be if you heard a DK64-esque Okay or Yehhh after he nailed a spike. Big missed opportunity.
• DK's skins are...kind of generic. Give him one where he's dressed as Funky Kong. And another where he's in the DK Jr onesie. 
• Update DK's chest beating taunt with either this noise or a more modern "Ooh hoo!" and a happier expression. It should feel triumphant to taunt, not angry.
• Replace DK's shaking his fur taunt with a fun bongo beat that the player can hold for a full drum solo
• Since DK's shrugging taunt is now on Side B, so his new one is him crouching down and blowing daffodils, resulting is a slight hitbox.
• Make Donkey Kong have a mean expression when he reaches 100% damage. Currently it indicates he has Giant Punch ready, but I think a flashing fist is enough of a reminder.
• Replace DK's final Smash with a single, two armed slam in front of him, burying the victim. If it connects, we see a cinematic reminiscent of the ending of DKC Returns, where Donkey Kong spikes the Moon down onto them.
• Adjust DK's victory animation where he backflips and poses with him being launched from a barrel in the background, slamming the ground for the freeze frame, and then doing that same flexing pose afterward.
• Adjust DK's victory animation of holding his arms up above him with the double thumbs up he had when collecting a gold banana in DK64. The Freeze frame is on the second thumbs up and then you hear him give that same Yeah to complete the reference.

 

 

On 10/15/2022 at 8:40 PM, Jotari said:

But really the thing I want more than anything for a new Smash Bros is the return of, and full implementation of, custom specials.

I think I've got a banger idea for custom specials, but I doubt anybody here plays Mortal Kombat X to see for themselves how brilliant it is for Smash. Basically, every character in that game has one of three Variations you can select with different skins, a few different special moves, and the properties of shared moves will change too. To put it another way, each character has two "echo fighters" of themselves to try out. I think that's better than a custom character approach because players don't have to leave character select to make their loadout, and there would only ever be Three Marios to study up on in terms of matchups rather than dozens of possible custom moves that you don't know are coming until you're already hit by one. I can tell you from experience these were the two main problems competitive players had with custom specials - it slowed down tournaments because the Wii U you played on was different for each set, forcing you to remake your character each time.

I also like the idea because it lets us have "Classic" versions of returning characters as one variation, along with "modern" ones with all the wild changes you'd wanna make to the veterans. That way nobody's upset that their main is "too different" from the last game. The only issue I'm running into is existing echo fighters. Should they be consolidated into these variations when they're factually different people? And doesn't it cause an issue where somebody is looking for Lucina on the character select, but isn't aware that she's hiding behind Marth?

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

If you ask me Donkey Kong is the most deserving of an update out of the original 12. Because look:

Moves

• His Up Special is a war crime. I'm going to extend my arms and spin like a helicopter is the sort of cartoony nonsense you could throw onto any character. But Donkey Kong's lone recovery move should have been obvious, and I assume wasn't implemented into the first game due to some technical issue or time constraint. Blast Barrels. It's simple, if you press Up B, Donkey Kong disappears into a barrel for a moment and fires straight upward at high velocity. But if you hold the button, the barrel will point forward 45 degrees, reset, point backward, reset, and if the player hasn't released before the final tick the barrel pops and Donkey Kong falls to his death, allowing three total opportunities to fire straight up.  There's no super armor or I frames from the launch, DK can be spiked if you nail the timing, but with so much variance on the timing, it won't be as free as spiking his current recovery. If the barrel is attacked with a strong enough move (say, 15%?), it will blast Donkey Kong in the currently pointed direction, but at drastically reduced distance.
  • If we really want we can keep the current Up B's move on the ground. Because it looks cool and its armor is useful for calling out people's landings and shield pressure.

I don't think its technological or time constraints that took away DK's Barrel Blast from his original moveset, as they have that very concept in Smash 64 in the Jungle Japes stage (or maybe Konga Jungle, whatever it was called). It probably came from a combination of wanting to reference Dixie Kong and also Smash 64 thinking him spawning a barrel out of nowhere would look a bit goofy. The original special moves were kind of more tame compared to a lot of the new ones we see. Just shooting and throwing stuff mostly, a lot which could even pass for normal moves in Smash Ultimate. Spawning a barrel out of nowhere and then shooting out of it, yeah I could see how that would kind of stand out as a weirder move in the original cast.

One thing I've been a bit miffed with in DK's specials is why they never renamed Giant Punch to Primate Punch, Primate Punch being Chunky's Kong's strong punch attack in DK64 that can break certain objects. Obviously it wasn't going to be called that in Smash 64 as Smash 64 came out almost a full year before DK64 and both games were developed on opposite sides of Eurasia, but starting from melee you could have given it a name change that retroactively makes it a reference to something in canon and also just in general is a better sounding name. You get the alliteration, you get the monkey reference, it's just better overall.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

• D-air is now a stall-then-fall. Rambi the Rhino's crate appears above DK, which he clambers on top of as it breaks and he and Rambi fall to the ground. Very powerful, but also laggy enough that you can't just use every time you're sent airborne.

While I like the idea of including Rambi in some form, that just sounds like a really weird down aerial, and not necessarily in a good way.He's clambering on top of a crate as he's flying through the air? Plus, he already has stall-n-fall attacks from his games in the form of the various pounds the Kongs use in DK64. That would achieve something of the same effect while also looking much more natural.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

• Grounded Down B is unchanged, but in the air, it's an air grab. When successful you immediately enter Cargo Throw state. This gives him an answer to platform camping, counters, and maybe even super armor recoveries with excellent timing.

I feel like that would turn DK's sole strategy into grabbing em and throwing them while off the stage. Though Down B should do something in the air. Maybe it could be your Rambi idea, I'd feel that would work a lot better as a special than a regular down air.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I think I've got a banger idea for custom specials, but I doubt anybody here plays Mortal Kombat X to see for themselves how brilliant it is for Smash. Basically, every character in that game has one of three Variations you can select with different skins, a few different special moves, and the properties of shared moves will change too. To put it another way, each character has two "echo fighters" of themselves to try out. I think that's better than a custom character approach because players don't have to leave character select to make their loadout, and there would only ever be Three Marios to study up on in terms of matchups rather than dozens of possible custom moves that you don't know are coming until you're already hit by one. I can tell you from experience these were the two main problems competitive players had with custom specials - it slowed down tournaments because the Wii U you played on was different for each set, forcing you to remake your character each time.

I also like the idea because it lets us have "Classic" versions of returning characters as one variation, along with "modern" ones with all the wild changes you'd wanna make to the veterans. That way nobody's upset that their main is "too different" from the last game. The only issue I'm running into is existing echo fighters. Should they be consolidated into these variations when they're factually different people?

I can see the appeal, even in my own list of custom specials I tend to gravitate towards unity in a set of specials, like making specials revolving around Charge and Discharge for pichu; but I think I'd still rather have customizations. Learning different set ups? Well yeah, it gives the game more depth. Might as well take away forward specials and half the cast if the goal is to make the game as easy as possible to study for professionals. Screw that, give it more variety, give it more excitement. Let me not know if the Link I'm fighting is going to whip out a Spin Attack or a Deku Leaf. Course of the choice was between fixed multiple movesets and no form of customisation at all, I would be delighted with the Mortal Kombat approach. Though I think by tying it to skins you also get an issue of "I like playing as Link in his Fierce Deity Skin, but I want to use his Gale Boomerang from his Twilight Princess Skin".

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

And doesn't it cause an issue where somebody is looking for Lucina on the character select, but isn't aware that she's hiding behind Marth?

Honestly, no? I don't think it would. Anyone familiar with the game after more than half a minute on the select screen is quickly going to realize the three moveset set up. And if they're someone who's played Lucina in earlier games then they're going check Marth right away. And if they were some how completely ignorant of the new mechanic of the game yet familiar enough with Smash to want to play Lucina, then after failing to find her, they're probably going to select Marth and then up she'll pop as an option. The only people really losing out would be people completely unfamiliar with Smash in its entirety who might otherwise have played as "Long blue haired sword girl" purely on the character design.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

While I like the idea of including Rambi in some form, that just sounds like a really weird down aerial, and not necessarily in a good way.He's clambering on top of a crate as he's flying through the air? Plus, he already has stall-n-fall attacks from his games in the form of the various pounds the Kongs use in DK64. That would achieve something of the same effect while also looking much more natural.

DK's an expert clamberer, but yeah it'd be an animation nightmare to make this look good and also have it be quick enough to be usable as an escape tool that we want it to be. I really wanted to incorporate Rambi as a vehicle special. Basically turned into Steve's Side B where Rambi keeps going after the dismount but you can't turn around while riding (after all he's a Rhino). Oops, that sounds like a strictly better projectile than the barrel toss. Replacing the barrel toss with this is a simple solution, but the problems came with the air version. I explicitly would want Rambi to be useless for recovery. You would drop like a stone, and dismounting wouldn't get you any extra height or distance. But dropping this massive animal sounds outrageously powerful as an edgeguarding tool. DK can drop this at the ledge from onstage with no risk, and I absolutely hated the idea. Good edgeguard tools should always carry a ton of risk - by necessitating that you put yourself out there in the danger zone. And even if you put some kind of cooldown on Rambi like Wario's Bike has, every DK player would exclusively end stocks by dropping Rambi on them as they recovered. I don't like it. It's overshadowing his other tools and keeps him from leaving the stage.

So, I'm ditching the Rambi concept for DK. The stall n fall D-air should just be his existing F-air, but with no somersault. He hold his arms out in front of him until he lands with a slam that will knock away anybody caught in the spike. I really do want Rambi somewhere in Smash, but you could save it for one of the smaller Kongs. Heck, my Cranky Kong concept is "He may not be bigger, faster or stronger than DK, but he's brought a lot of help from his animal friends!". Between his short cane and Squawks as a Luma-esque companion, he'd be a sort of swordfighter until Squawks is KOd. And his specials would be animal friends. Rattly the Rattlesnake (Up B), Expresso the Ostrich (Side B), Rambi the Rhino (Down B), and Squitter the Spider (Neutral B, projectiles that web em up for a stun effect)

Edited October 18, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

DK's an expert clamberer, but yeah it'd be an animation nightmare to make this look good and also have it be quick enough to be usable as an escape tool that we want it to be. I really wanted to incorporate Rambi as a vehicle special. Basically turned into Steve's Side B where Rambi keeps going after the dismount but you can't turn around while riding (after all he's a Rhino). Oops, that sounds like a strictly better projectile than the barrel toss. Replacing the barrel toss with this is a simple solution, but the problems came with the air version. I explicitly would want Rambi to be useless for recovery. You would drop like a stone, and dismounting wouldn't get you any extra height or distance. But dropping this massive animal sounds outrageously powerful as an edgeguarding tool. DK can drop this at the ledge from onstage with no risk, and I absolutely hated the idea. Good edgeguard tools should always carry a ton of risk - by necessitating that you put yourself out there in the danger zone. And even if you put some kind of cooldown on Rambi like Wario's Bike has, every DK player would exclusively end stocks by dropping Rambi on them as they recovered. I don't like it. It's overshadowing his other tools and keeps him from leaving the stage.

So, I'm ditching the Rambi concept for DK. The stall n fall D-air should just be his existing F-air, but with no somersault. He hold his arms out in front of him until he lands with a slam that will knock away anybody caught in the spike. I really do want Rambi somewhere in Smash, but you could save it for one of the smaller Kongs. Heck, my Cranky Kong concept is "He may not be bigger, faster or stronger than DK, but he's brought a lot of help from his animal friends!". Between his short cane and Squawks as a Luma-esque companion, he'd be a sort of swordfighter until Squawks is KOd. And his specials would be animal friends. Rattly the Rattlesnake (Up B), Expresso the Ostrich (Side B), Rambi the Rhino (Down B), and Squitter the Spider (Neutral B, projectiles that web em up for a stun effect)

Rambi and Barrel Toss would both be possible as specials if only custom specials are embraced in full. I'm even thinking now that set up wouldn't  be much of an issue if its a choice between two specials on each slot, that's something that could easily be set up on the character select screen. I actually think Dragon Ball FighterZ does something like that with assignable specials on the character select screen.

[Perkilator]

Delzethin just did a video on DK

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Perkilator

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Perkilator said:

Delzethin just did a video on DK

 

Who?

[Perkilator]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Who?

A YouTuber who mostly focuses on hypothetical concepts for Smash Bros.

He’s also done a couple videos for Samus and Ganondorf.

[Jotari]

Here's a Link moveset I posted on Smash Boards. Pictures didn't come through, but I'll fix that later. Or you can just see it there

https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-link-but-keeping-him-the-same.518191/

Spoiler

 

I'm not going to massively focus on balance with this guy. Sure things like a faster jab or a stronger down aerial would be desirable, but this will be about the moves themselves and how they function.

First up is his Jab. I didn't realize it until going to make this thread, but they actually changed this in Ultimate. Specifically the final hit of the 3 hit combo, before it ended with a stab, now it finishes with an upward strike. People say the original jab was based off of the sequence of attacks he uses to kill Ganon in Ocarina of Time. So, that's better for a fidelity viewpoint, but honestly I feel like the updated version probably works better as an attack? Just seems like the upthrust would put the enemy in a better position for follow ups. Though ultimately I think it probably doesn't make a huge difference considering I never even noticed the change.

His up tilt, side tilt and dash attack are fine (love that they changed his dash attack to the Jump Attack, great change there). I would like if his Side Tilt was renamed Rock Breaker, as that's a skill in The Minish Cap, however it has no visual basis to it, it would just be a nice name reference). The only I really want to talk about is his Down Tilt. It's not widely known, but all Smash attacks have names, and this one is called the grass cutter. Since Link crouches to cut grass. Cool! Only, it doesn't actually resemble Link's actual crouch stab from his own games.

I could only find footage of it from Zelda II, while I'm envisioning mostly the N64 games, but the idea is actually still the same. Link stabs forward with his sword instead of a wide arcing slash. This change would make the attack slightly quicker on execution.

Now, on to his Smashes, where I actually have the most to talk about. First off, did you know Link has a gimmick on his Forward Smash? If he's at 0% he will fire a sword beam from it. This is a cool reference to the Zelda series where Link can only shoot sword beams at full hearts in a lot of games. I'm taking that idea and expanding it ever so slightly, more on that after his Smash Attacks though.

First up is just a visual change to his forward Smash. I like this attack, but it's not based off of anything in the Zelda series. I'm going to change that by turning it into the Mortal Draw from Twilight Princess.

Basically, Link sheaths his sword while charging the attack, and then does a more elaborate turn around strike. Other than the animation, the attack is unchanged. Link still can perform a second follow up attack.

I've sort of alerted, sort of changed his Down Smash. His old down smash is fine, but it's kind of generic, being a basic hit forward and backwards that's the down smash of half the sword users in the roster. So I've changed it to his Spin Attack.

It works pretty much like the grounded version of the Spin Attack does in Smash already. Only there's a slight addition. Like I said, I've expanded his Sword Beam gimmick, or rather, I've expanded his 0% gimmick. If Link is at 0%, the range and power of his Spin Attack will be increased, it will also have a blue glow to it. This is based off of the Great Spin Attack in Twilight Princess (only the red glow is changed to blue to keep in line with the sword beam).

Next is his Up Smash, which I have changed completely. I've always felt his up smash looked a bit awkward, as if Link was struggling to hit something in the air by reaching for it three times. This attack has been replaced by his vertical spin attack from Skyward Sword.

The attack will hit all around Link giving it good coverage. It comes out faster, though it doesn't last as long as his old Up Smash. Even though it's not a feature of the Spin Attack in Skyward Sword, Link also gets extra range and power on it if he's at 0%.

So all three of his Smashes make use of the 0% HP gimmick. His forward smash by having a sword beam, and his up and down smash by increasing their range and power. However, staying at 0% in Smash is very difficult, so this isn't going to see much use. That's why I've added another way to trigger this effect. Via a taunt. If Link uses a taunt that resembles him charging up for a Skyward Strike in Skyward Sword, then the next Smash Attack he uses will function as if he's at 0%. However, it will only work if the next attack he uses is a Smash Attack, otherwise it will fade. This makes it still largely impractical, as unless you're edge guarding, it's a bit time consuming to set up a taunt and then a Smash Attack, but it does give an alternate way to implement the boosted Smashes that make them a more recogniseable feature of his moveset. As I think people frequently forget or never even notice the Sword Beam in Smash Ultimate.

On the subject of his aerials, I don't have any changes. Though I don't really like his neutral or back aerial. As kicking is not really something Link has ever done (except for his new forward throw). However, I can't really think of anything more fitting to replace them with that wouldn't be generic swings. Maybe I could have him hit with his shield for his back aerial like Palutena does, but that's also not really based on anything (you could call it the Shield Bash, but it wouldn't be what the Shield Bash actually looks like or how it functions, similarly for something like the Helm Splitter). So while I want to change these two moves, I don't have anything decent to replace them with. So I'll keep them as is.

Last of his normal moves are his grabs. First off, I want his Hook Shot back. It's an iconic part of him and it deserves to be there. On his actual throws, the one I most want to change his his down throw. As the wrestling move Link performs there just doesn't suit him at all (though Link has wrestled in canon, it was just more Sumo than WWE). My main idea for it would be the Fatal Blow, which generally just looks a lot like his D-Air, but I'm fine with some overlap there.

It would be the more elaborate looking Fatal Blow used on Demise however, only without the lightning. This throw would also have a special property wherein it deals an increased amount of damage to enemies already over 100%. It's still not a kill throw, as knockback does not increase, only damage (though dealing more damage will mean a naturla increase in knockback). This simulates how it's used to finish off injured enemies in Zelda.

His up and forward throws are fine. I would, however, like to change his back throw. It's a simple back kick now, what I want to change it to is the Back Slice.

The properties of this attack would be pretty similar to his old back throw in terms of damage and distance. However, the main change is that this back throw actually turns Link around. Because he moves behind his foe and slashes them, Link ends the attack by looking towards his opponent's back. So, if you're quick enough, you could easily combo this throw into a Dash Attack.

Last are his specials. His Remote Bombs are much better than the Bombs he had before, so I hope they stay in Smash, even if Zelda moves away from them as an item. The Gale Boomerang is in a similar position, but it's a bit more of a divisive split on which one is more useful, and a split I have no meaningful opinion on. Ideally both would be implemented via custom specials.

As far his bow goes, I'd only like to be able to cancel it while charging by shielding or rolling.

Now, the big change to his specials is his up special. You might have thought it odd I gave him the Spin Attack for his Down Smash when it's already his Up Special, well, that's because I've removed it as his Up Special. The Spin Attack has never propelled Link through the are like he's a helicopter in any actual Zelda game. I've changed it to the Sail Cloth from Skyward Sword. Though it's also based on Revali's Gale from Breath of the Wild. Link propels himself upwards on a gust of air and floats downwards, most similar to Peach's Parasol. Link can fully act out of the attack and even use it again more than once in the air, though it provides no vertical lift after its first use. The inital frames using it contains a wind hitbox that pushes enemies away from Link.

I chose the Sailcloth over the Para Glider because I feel it would look more natural for him to whip out suddenly, and also because it has more plot significance in Skyward Sword than the Paraglider in Breath of the Wild. However, Link will use the Revali's Gale charging pose before using the move.

And that's it for my Link redesign. It might seem like there are a lot of changes, but aside from his Up Special, they are moslty small tweaks to make things more in line with actual Zelda animations and ideas.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Jotari

[Perkilator]

On 10/22/2022 at 4:09 PM, Perkilator said:

Delzethin just did a video on DK

 

I just now realized I forgot to post the link to the video. I fixed the post now.

[Lord_Brand]

I would like to rework Link's moveset, though I am debating if my primary change would be for the best gameplay-wise.

The change I speak of is the addition of an Inventory that would allow him to map different items to his N Special, including the Bow, Boomerang, and Bombs. His Side Special would become the Pegasus Boots on the ground and Roc's Cape in the air while his D Special would become the Power Bracelet/Glove, with which he picks up a bush, pot, or rock. Though I think that's more faithful to his home series, I am concerned that it would mess up the flow his existing moveset has, where you can smoothly flow from one projectile to another.

Also, because I have ideas for different Link fighters, I'd want to change the "main" Link's costumes to his Original and Past designs, using green, blue, and red variants for each, as well as a Dark version of Original Link and a purple "Ravio" version of Past Link.

By the same token, I'd overhaul the "main" Zelda's moveset so she uses the Magical Rod, elemental Rods, and possibly other magic items. Her P1, P3, P5, and P7 costumes would be Original Zelda wearing pink, green, blue, and red dresses, her P2 costumes would be her Past design, her P4 costume would be a blue variant of P2 or possibly Marin, her P6 would be Oracle Zelda, and her P8 would be a recolor of P6 based on Hilda from ALBW.

Ganondorf's specials would be overhauled to reflect his magical abilities. His N Special would become the magic fireball as it should have been. His side special would have him bring out the trident used by Phantom Ganon and perform a dash attack with it. His U special would reference his ability to fly. His D Special would be the quake punch he uses to cause platforms to fall. And of course his smashes would make use of the Gerudo sword as before.

Though I know many fans - myself included - want to see Zelda fighters beyond Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, I do think there is ample potential for different Links and Zeldas that represent different games or groups of games in the series. That said, I would bring back Ocarina Zelda as part of Sheik's moveset. As in, I would bring back the ability for Sheik and Zelda to transform using their D Special, and that Zelda specifically would have the Goddess spells as her other specials. Sheik's own moveset would be altered, making use of her dagger seen in official art for melee attacks and with reworked specials referencing the songs she teaches Link.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Jotari]

51 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

I would like to rework Link's moveset, though I am debating if my primary change would be for the best gameplay-wise.

The change I speak of is the addition of an Inventory that would allow him to map different items to his N Special, including the Bow, Boomerang, and Bombs. His Side Special would become the Pegasus Boots on the ground and Roc's Cape in the air while his D Special would become the Power Bracelet/Glove, with which he picks up a bush, pot, or rock. Though I think that's more faithful to his home series, I am concerned that it would mess up the flow his existing moveset has, where you can smoothly flow from one projectile to another.

Also, because I have ideas for different Link fighters, I'd want to change the "main" Link's costumes to his Original and Past designs, using green, blue, and red variants for each, as well as a Dark version of Original Link and a purple "Ravio" version of Past Link.

By the same token, I'd overhaul the "main" Zelda's moveset so she uses the Magical Rod, elemental Rods, and possibly other magic items. Her P1, P3, P5, and P7 costumes would be Original Zelda wearing pink, green, blue, and red dresses, her P2 costumes would be her Past design, her P4 costume would be a blue variant of P2 or possibly Marin, her P6 would be Oracle Zelda, and her P8 would be a recolor of P6 based on Hilda from ALBW.

I think that very much would upset the flow of his moveset. As you need to be able to throw out projectiles quickly as Link, so having to choose between them and limited ability to throw several at once would limit what he can actually do with them. The best thing would be to probably just make use of the fact that we have three Links and give them different specials. Custom specials too, would also be a way to bring in different items. I don't think he necessarily needs to pick up pots like Daisy, but thinking on that idea, the animation he uses for throwing the giant pillars with the golden gauntlets in Ocarina of Time could make for a good back throw.

[Lord_Brand]

Since we have gotten Ocarina (Adult), Twilight Link, and Twilight Zelda in some form in past Smash games, I'll give them revamped movesets as well.

Ocarina Link's moveset would feature the items he gets to use as an adult in Ocarina of Time. His Bow could allow you to select between normal, Fire, Ice, and Light Arrows (might be a good alternative to my Inventory mechanic in general, just letting the player choose different kinds of arrows on the fly), each with their own properties. Normal Arrows charge the fastest, Fire Arrows leave a flame behind, Ice Arrows can freeze, and Light Arrows hit the hardest. Since Adult Link doesn't get to use the Boomerang, his Side Special could instead be Megaton Hammer. He could swing Biggoron's Sword for his smashes and perhaps his forward air.

• P1: Kokiri Tunic
• P2: Goron Tunic
• P3: Zora Tunic
• P4: Dark Link
• P5: Gold Tunic
• P6: Purple Tunic
• P7: Orange Tunic
• P8: Fierce Deity Link

Twilight Link's N Special could be the Hero's Bow and Bomb Arrows, his S Special is Gale Boomerang, and his D Special would be the Shadow Crystal, which he uses to transform into Wolf Link & Midna. WL&M is faster but lighter than TL, and emphasizes close range combat more. Midna handles items and grabs, using her prehensile hair for the latter. WL&M's N Special is Dark Energy Attack, where Midna raises her hand and summons a circle of dark energy around Wolf Link. Once released, Wolf Link will attack nearby opponents. WL&M's S Special is Lunging Bite, based on WL's Jump Attack in TP. WL&M dash forward and, upon contact with a foe, WL will latch on and continue damaging them. WL&M's U Special is Warp, wherein Midna opens a Twilight Portal and warps herself and WL a short distance away.

• P1: Hero's Clothes/Green Fur
• P2: Zora Armor/Blue Fur
• P3: Magic Armor/Red Fur
• P4: Ordon Goatherder/Ordinary Wolf
• P5: Dark Link/Weakened Midna Colors
• P6: Pink Zora Armor/Pink Fur
• P7: Gold Tunic/Golden Wolf
• P8: Sumo/

Twilight Zelda's new moveset makes good use of the rapier she was seen wielding in TP. Her specials are named after the four Light Spirits: Ordona, Faron, Eldin, and Lanayru. Additionally, two of them are based on attacks she uses as Puppet Zelda.

• P1: Standard Dress
• P2: Cloak
• P3: Green
• P4: Ilia
• P5: Red
• P6: Puppet Zelda
• P7: Blue
• P8: Twili Midna

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Of course just because a character isn't in the first or second Smash Bros doesn't mean they can't be screaming for a do-over. Take Lucario. I think they had this wrong from the start. In Pokemon media, Lucario's command over "aura" is conceptualized as a supernatural level of empathy. Being able to size up a human just by being physically near them. So how does that translate to "he does more damage the more damage he takes"? Is he responding to the murderous intent of his opponent as his own damage percentage rises? Is he getting more desperate as he nears the end of his stock? A creature like Lucario is often depicted as being emotionally unflappable, so it just seems out of character. And the very notion that "this character gets stronger the more damage he takes" would probably fit better on nearly every other fighter design, from Mario to Sora. To say nothing of characters that have a desperation mechanic similar to Aura in their source game (most guests from action/fighting games or RPGs). That's why they made it a universal mechanic - Rage. And used it as a premise for most counters growing in strength compared to the strength of the attack that hit you.

As for the gameplay I want it on the record that I do like 'comeback mechanics' in fighting games. But now that Rage is something on every Fighter, Lucario's Aura no longer feels conceptually unique. Plus if you just play him (go on, I know nobody plays this guy but give it a shot), you'll see what's wrong pretty quickly. At low aura his attacks just do nothing. Immaculate spacing, hard reads, none of these matter if your attacks don't deal damage - and by extension, knockback. There's no benefit to being at low Aura. And that got me thinking about how Lucario's moves could become different on a case by case basis rather than being linearly improved with the damage he takes. Have some moves get better while others got worse. Think about it:

• If his Up B traveled less distance at high aura, that would mean he couldn't go as far out for an edgeguard.
• Have Aura Sphere at low aura travel very quickly to compensate for its small size and low damage, then travel very slowly when it's the massive orb of death.
• Have moves that make physical contact be strong out of the gate, but the aura flame effect portion of the hitbox be stronger or weaker on aura level. 
• Or if a move does get linearly better at high aura, get creative with it. Like if a High Aura D-tilt kicked up a burst of flame ahead of Lucario, increasing its range as a poking tool.

Having a character design where your move preference and strategy shifts depending on how much damage you've taken? That IS conceptually interesting and unique from Rage. So even if I think Lucario is the wrong fit for a mechanic like this, it's a good guideline to follow if you did want to design a character with this dichotomy. 

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Of course just because a character isn't in the first or second Smash Bros doesn't mean they can't be screaming for a do-over. Take Lucario. I think they had this wrong from the start. In Pokemon media, Lucario's command over "aura" is conceptualized as a supernatural level of empathy. Being able to size up a human just by being physically near them. So how does that translate to "he does more damage the more damage he takes"? Is he responding to the murderous intent of his opponent as his own damage percentage rises? Is he getting more desperate as he nears the end of his stock? A creature like Lucario is often depicted as being emotionally unflappable, so it just seems out of character. And the very notion that "this character gets stronger the more damage he takes" would probably fit better on nearly every other fighter design, from Mario to Sora. To say nothing of characters that have a desperation mechanic similar to Aura in their source game (most guests from action/fighting games or RPGs). That's why they made it a universal mechanic - Rage. And used it as a premise for most counters growing in strength compared to the strength of the attack that hit you.

As for the gameplay I want it on the record that I do like 'comeback mechanics' in fighting games. But now that Rage is something on every Fighter, Lucario's Aura no longer feels conceptually unique. Plus if you just play him (go on, I know nobody plays this guy but give it a shot), you'll see what's wrong pretty quickly. At low aura his attacks just do nothing. Immaculate spacing, hard reads, none of these matter if your attacks don't deal damage - and by extension, knockback. There's no benefit to being at low Aura. And that got me thinking about how Lucario's moves could become different on a case by case basis rather than being linearly improved with the damage he takes. Have some moves get better while others got worse. Think about it:

• If his Up B traveled less distance at high aura, that would mean he couldn't go as far out for an edgeguard.
• Have Aura Sphere at low aura travel very quickly to compensate for its small size and low damage, then travel very slowly when it's the massive orb of death.
• Have moves that make physical contact be strong out of the gate, but the aura flame effect portion of the hitbox be stronger or weaker on aura level. 
• Or if a move does get linearly better at high aura, get creative with it. Like if a High Aura D-tilt kicked up a burst of flame ahead of Lucario, increasing its range as a poking tool.

Having a character design where your move preference and strategy shifts depending on how much damage you've taken? That IS conceptually interesting and unique from Rage. So even if I think Lucario is the wrong fit for a mechanic like this, it's a good guideline to follow if you did want to design a character with this dichotomy. 

Well Lucario's ability in Pokemon is Steadfast, which increases its speed if it flinches. And its secret ability increases attack when hit by a dark attack. So there is some kind of justification if you squint.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well Lucario's ability in Pokemon is Steadfast, which increases its speed if it flinches. And its secret ability increases attack when hit by a dark attack. So there is some kind of justification if you squint.

I really don't see the correlation in either case. Aura has no impact on his speed, and the dark type is just one of eighteen types of damage. Furthermore, Justified did not exist in any pokemon game prior to the release of Brawl, so it could only ever be a coincidence, not a reference to Lucario.

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I really don't see the correlation in either case. Aura has no impact on his speed, and the dark type is just one of eighteen types of damage. Furthermore, Justified did not exist in any pokemon game prior to the release of Brawl, so it could only ever be a coincidence, not a reference to Lucario.

Maybe making Aura influence Lucario's speed instead of power would be a good way to distinguish it from Rage.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Maybe making Aura influence Lucario's speed instead of power would be a good way to distinguish it from Rage.

you could, but if that's all it does, then once again we have no reason to remain at low aura. There's no benefit to being slow just as there's no benefit to your moves doing a third of their maximum damage/knockback. Assuming the speed difference were as drastic as the damage difference, we're just a bad character waiting to be beat up so we can become a good character. I think the average Lucario main would also be contentious about this change because Lucario's speed is one of his best traits. Not having access to that speed until you're in Kill% can be a letdown. As much as Bayonetta being defanged in the next game killed even the fun of playing as Bayonetta.

That's why I'm pushing for a mechanic like this to not just be a linear boost to parameters. Comeback mechanics have been done so much better (albeit, still not perfectly in my imo) in Ultimate's roster. Sephiroth gets a third jump, more speed, and super armor smashes, but his mode doesn't activate if he's ahead in stocks. Kazuya gets a flat damage boost, but he has to weigh whether he wants to keep that or burn it with a powerful Rage Drive. Terry gets fun new moves that are tricky to combo into. Joker's moveset is altered from top to bottom, and he can charge it up faster with successful guards. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

you could, but if that's all it does, then once again we have no reason to remain at low aura. There's no benefit to being slow just as there's no benefit to your moves doing a third of their maximum damage/knockback. Assuming the speed difference were as drastic as the damage difference, we're just a bad character waiting to be beat up so we can become a good character. I think the average Lucario main would also be contentious about this change because Lucario's speed is one of his best traits. Not having access to that speed until you're in Kill% can be a letdown. As much as Bayonetta being defanged in the next game killed even the fun of playing as Bayonetta.

That's why I'm pushing for a mechanic like this to not just be a linear boost to parameters. Comeback mechanics have been done so much better (albeit, still not perfectly in my imo) in Ultimate's roster. Sephiroth gets a third jump, more speed, and super armor smashes, but his mode doesn't activate if he's ahead in stocks. Kazuya gets a flat damage boost, but he has to weigh whether he wants to keep that or burn it with a powerful Rage Drive. Terry gets fun new moves that are tricky to combo into. Joker's moveset is altered from top to bottom, and he can charge it up faster with successful guards. 

Oh yeah, I certainly don't think stuff like speeding up a weaker Aura Sphere are bad ideas. I was just tossing some more stuff out there. Another idea would be to give Lucario a move with recoil, so it can accumulate damage on itself without basically being a punching bag for the enemy.

[Lord_Brand]

Wario's in dire need of a mechanical overhaul, one that puts emphasis on his greed rather than his gas. Whenever he hits opponents, he gets coins with which he can purchase items on the fly using his new N Special, Wario Wares.

• Garlic - Wario's favorite food, which recovers some HP. Wario can only purchase a limited amount of Garlic per stock.
• Sugar Pop - A can of soda with Club Sugar's brand on it that grants a temporary speed boost akin to the Bunny Hood.
• Iron Tablet - An experimental dietary supplement created by Dr. Crygor that outright turns whoever eats it metal for a short time.
• Wario Bat - A baseball bat with Wario's branding on it, which functions similar to the Home Run Bat.
• Wario Bomb - An explosive throwing item decorated with Wario's signature grin and moustache, which functions similar to Bob-omb.
• Ray Gun - One of Orbulon's spare ray guns, which functions as a shooting item similar to the standard Ray Gun.

The Wario Bike can stay as his S Special. Wario's new U Special can be his Jet Pack from WarioWare: Get It Together!, which works similar to R.O.B.'s Robo Burner. The D Special could become Wario's Earthshake Punch from Wario Land: Shake It!.

[Perkilator]

Here's an interesting thought: what if the Pokémon Trainer's other two Pokémon were Totodile and Grovyle?