What we know of Engage's mechanics so far.

[Hiroki]

27 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Micaiah's "Staff Access" is a Sync Skill, but proficiencies are part of another system altogether.

Yes, I got it, but I don't want to think it's the only thing. Can't she give also a proficiencies? Someone else has to do, since it would be the only way to promote Lance Fighter to Royal Knight (Lance and Staff). At some point, an Emblem (or two) should give proficiencies in Staves. Otherwise, it would be too difficult to access staves class without being in one at the start.

 

As for the DLC potential class, I will talk about it in the other topic, ahah. But you two says interesting things. 

[Mirron]

Maybe you can always promote into advanced classes of the one you start out in? And it's getting to others that requires something special.

[Hiroki]

21 minutes ago, Mirron said:

Maybe you can always promote into advanced classes of the one you start out in? And it's getting to others that requires something special.

I don't know, and I'm not really sure on this one. But since, in the requirements for any advanced class, we see "base class" lvl 10 (for Hero, you have to be a Sword Fighter lvl 10) + weapon proficiencies + master seal...I'm not sure.

It's from the video of class changing with Céline. On the screen, it's not specifically said that you can access via a base class without anything more. It seems you need to have Weapon Prof also.

Maybe, that's why each class of the game have a class that don't need another weapon, and some that need another. In the case player didn't unlock any other weapon prof on that unit. I should look to other footage, where we see non-royal unit to be sure, I guess.

[Mirron]

I think that's only applicable to some categories. Mages, Fliers, and the Martial Artists all have only classes that require an additional weapon.

But who knows. I do imagine Micaiah gives staff access and staff proficiency for the purposes of promoting into another class. I do think making it easier to promote into one of the "official" ones would make sense but perhaps not.

[Hiroki]

29 minutes ago, Mirron said:

I think that's only applicable to some categories. Mages, Fliers, and the Martial Artists all have only classes that require an additional weapon.

But who knows. I do imagine Micaiah gives staff access and staff proficiency for the purposes of promoting into another class. I do think making it easier to promote into one of the "official" ones would make sense but perhaps not.

In fact, only Fliers have trouble promoting. Mages can become Sages, with the same requirements (Tome and Staff). Martial Monk can become Martial Artist (Body Arts and Staff) with the same idea. Leaving the problem of Flier, who don't seem to have a choice here, but learning another proficiencies.

Maybe you can promote to your advanced class without the requirement? I don't know, it's not clear in the video. I would like to think like that, it should be easy to promote, but I didn't see many video, actually, to confirm that.

[Mirron]

I believe Mages only have proficiency in Tomes by default. I'm not really sure if all Martial Monks have proficiency in Staves and Body Arts by default, if so it shouldn't be an issue.

It looks like Emblems give out more than one type of proficiency though. Might not be all of them but at least Celica has Tome and Sword, I imagine Micaiah has Tome and Staff (well, it's a reasonable guess at least). Not sure who would have another Staff off the top of my head, maybe Leif could as he can use anything. So it shouldn't be overly onerous. Along with I believe alternate ways to gain them too.

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, Mirron said:

Still have hopes for the return of a magic trinity

No. I don't see the need for one. Largely because it's not much use when mages, generally speaking, have high resistance, and thus barely do damage to each other. Unless one side is much stronger than the other, at least... but that makes the case for the trinity of magic even flimsier than it already is.

[Keikyushi]

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. I don't see the need for one. Largely because it's not much use when mages, generally speaking, have high resistance, and thus barely do damage to each other. Unless one side is much stronger than the other, at least... but that makes the case for the trinity of magic even flimsier than it already is.

Have to agree here. While I like the magic trinity, its effect on gameplay has usually been marginal. Though I would love them to bring back Dark magic with niche effects like in Awakening. Not in any magic triangle, just a special type of tome for certain classes to use

Also Armor mage is dope and should be a thing. Edelgard's personal class could have been one smh

[FashionEmblem]

4 hours ago, Hiroki said:

In fact, only Fliers have trouble promoting. Mages can become Sages, with the same requirements (Tome and Staff). Martial Monk can become Martial Artist (Body Arts and Staff) with the same idea. Leaving the problem of Flier, who don't seem to have a choice here, but learning another proficiencies.

Maybe you can promote to your advanced class without the requirement? I don't know, it's not clear in the video. I would like to think like that, it should be easy to promote, but I didn't see many video, actually, to confirm that.

I suspect there won't be any issues linearly promoting anyone really and the emblem ring proficiency system is there for opening up reclassing. I saw some assumptions that only prepromotes and characters with unique classes have multiple proficiencies, but in previous footage we saw Anna with proficiencies in Axes, Bows, and Daggers reclassing from Warrior to Axe Wolf Knight. This one stands out because her bow proficiency was highlighted in blue, indicating it's her primary proficiency (consistently, her Warrior ranks were A axes, and B, instead of C, bows). However, up until then we had seen her as an Axe Fighter, implying that axes are innately in her kit (daggers, by contrast, may have come from an emblem). So far, Anna is the only unit I've seen where it seems her starting class (axes) doesn't align with her primary weapon (bows). Regardless, I expect characters who join you unpromoted to come with a set of proficiencies consistent with a promotion. For example, we've seen Chloe as a Lance Flier, Griffin Knight, and Sage so I suspect she has proficiencies in at least lances and staves for the Griffin Knight promotion (the tome proficiency for Sage may have come via emblem). Otherwise, the only fliers we have seen are Rosado (pre-promote), Hortensia (personal class), and Ivy (personal class).

When using a Master Seal, it seems that you have to promote linearly, hence the level 10 base class requirement. For example, we can see Alfred promoting from Noble to Avegnir, but despite having access to swords and lances, Lance Hero is greyed out. However, when reclassing with a Second Seal, you are free to move around different class lines. For example, Anna reclasses from Warrior, in the Axe Fighter line, to Axe Wolf Knight, in the Cavalier line. Vander also had the option when reclassing to switch to any axe-only class, including going from his prepromote Paladin down to a base class. Combined with the fact that skills are only learned in advanced classes, I suspect the play is to hit level 10, promote ASAP, then worry about reclassing. Your penalty is likely reduced exp gain, but the gains are higher weapon ranks, higher stats, ability to learn more skills, and not having to worry about getting back to level 10 for promotion (just focus on re-classing between other advanced classes). Moreover, when reclassing resets your level to 1 you don't have to worry about the opportunity cost of 10 levels of stat gains. The Vander footage also shows him reclassing at level 6, so I suspect there's no level requirement for second seals (or, if there is it's 5 for an advanced class). The limitations on the system will be how difficult it is to acquire emblem proficiencies and how abundant/expensive the seals are.

Edited January 6, 2023 by FashionEmblem

[Mirron]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. I don't see the need for one. Largely because it's not much use when mages, generally speaking, have high resistance, and thus barely do damage to each other. Unless one side is much stronger than the other, at least... but that makes the case for the trinity of magic even flimsier than it already is.

Eh, that can be resolved by changing how they build characters. It’s not like physical units invalidate the weapon triangle inherently.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Mirron said:

Eh, that can be resolved by changing how they build characters. It’s not like physical units invalidate the weapon triangle inherently.

That's obvious, since physical classes are generally built differently; for example, myrmidons are obviously disadvantaged against armored knights because their low strength leaves them struggling to do any real damage, and their high speed doesn't really help there because zero times two is still zero. On the other hand, fighters are gonna fare better against them because their high strength and axes help them still do good damage to them. Hell, even in Genealogy, when high resistance was still uncommon, the trinity of magic was mostly irrelevant because wind magic was clearly head and shoulders above everything else.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Mirron]

Exactly. So the solution is building mages differently. Or just upping the importance of the triangle I suppose, especially damage wise.

[DefyingFates]

New SacredSpear video! I'm not going to watch this one, but those who like video coverage, here you go!

Spoiler

 

 

[Cysx]

It does seem like martial arts are indeed a hybrid weapon using  (Str+Mag)/2 as their attack stat, rather than Str. And they seem to simply target def. Out of all of the martial arts stat sheets (around ten of them afaik, mostly Framme's, but we did get Alear and Jean recently), there is no counterexample of this, but that's the most I can say.

The targeting of Def I'm not entirely sure of, but every time Framme fights an enemy we roughly know the defensive stats of (usually because we see someone else attack them first), it fits. Unfortunately there aren't that many examples. I doubt they'd make it more complicated than that, though that's not proof obviously.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Cysx

[Hiroki]

13 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

I suspect there won't be any issues linearly promoting anyone really and the emblem ring proficiency system is there for opening up reclassing. I saw some assumptions that only prepromotes and characters with unique classes have multiple proficiencies, but in previous footage we saw Anna with proficiencies in Axes, Bows, and Daggers reclassing from Warrior to Axe Wolf Knight.

Combined with the fact that skills are only learned in advanced classes, I suspect the play is to hit level 10, promote ASAP, then worry about reclassing. Your penalty is likely reduced exp gain, but the gains are higher weapon ranks, higher stats, ability to learn more skills, and not having to worry about getting back to level 10 for promotion (just focus on re-classing between other advanced classes). Moreover, when reclassing resets your level to 1 you don't have to worry about the opportunity cost of 10 levels of stat gains. The Vander footage also shows him reclassing at level 6, so I suspect there's no level requirement for second seals (or, if there is it's 5 for an advanced class). The limitations on the system will be how difficult it is to acquire emblem proficiencies and how abundant/expensive the seals are.

Big message here, but good analyses. You're right, it seems every pre-promote characters who would need two proficiencies to promote have many proficiencies to start with, not just the natural talent. I guess it's pretty normal for the game to give us characters with multiple prof, to give us a bit of a choice in using them. Maybe it's a hint for their "canon classes", like Anna. She start as an Axe Fighter and have Bow in natural talent. It may be in regard of her other incarnations (like the Bow user Anna, and the Axe one of Heroes), and at the same time, it could implies that she's "canonly" a Warrior. Obviously, you can give her the class you want, but maybe it's her canon.

By the way, Chloe, the only pre-promote flier of the game having multiple prof is just logic. It was the only tree class that needed multiple prof to promote, and she have multiple from the start. So you're not stuck, even if you don't use any Emblems.

 

For the reclassing, I just had the same thought. As it seems pretty simple to change class (you just need to bond a bit with a specific Emblem), it could be used a lot to build a good team. Obviously, it really depends on the number of second seals you can get and how easy you can get them. But I have the feeling it could be very easy with a bit of grinding and skirmishes. Nonetheless, I may have missed it, but I think units can only have one "class skill" at a time. So, appart for the stats, you may not have to reclass a lot, because you'll just want one skill per unit. Reclassing will be useful to gain 20 more levels to gain stats, and gain some growth rates depending on how you plan to play your units.

[ciphertul]

3 hours ago, Hiroki said:

By the way, Chloe, the only pre-promote flier of the game having multiple prof is just logic. It was the only tree class that needed multiple prof to promote, and she have multiple from the start. So you're not stuck, even if you don't use any Emblems.

Err, Rosado is the pre-promoted flier. Chloe is just a Peg Knight at first.

[FashionEmblem]

3 hours ago, Hiroki said:

Big message here, but good analyses. You're right, it seems every pre-promote characters who would need two proficiencies to promote have many proficiencies to start with, not just the natural talent. I guess it's pretty normal for the game to give us characters with multiple prof, to give us a bit of a choice in using them. Maybe it's a hint for their "canon classes", like Anna. She start as an Axe Fighter and have Bow in natural talent. It may be in regard of her other incarnations (like the Bow user Anna, and the Axe one of Heroes), and at the same time, it could implies that she's "canonly" a Warrior. Obviously, you can give her the class you want, but maybe it's her canon.

By the way, Chloe, the only pre-promote flier of the game having multiple prof is just logic. It was the only tree class that needed multiple prof to promote, and she have multiple from the start. So you're not stuck, even if you don't use any Emblems.

 

For the reclassing, I just had the same thought. As it seems pretty simple to change class (you just need to bond a bit with a specific Emblem), it could be used a lot to build a good team. Obviously, it really depends on the number of second seals you can get and how easy you can get them. But I have the feeling it could be very easy with a bit of grinding and skirmishes. Nonetheless, I may have missed it, but I think units can only have one "class skill" at a time. So, appart for the stats, you may not have to reclass a lot, because you'll just want one skill per unit. Reclassing will be useful to gain 20 more levels to gain stats, and gain some growth rates depending on how you plan to play your units.

Some hints at the canon class aspect is that Anna's color scheme as a warrior is the same red/yellow as her Trickster outfit from Awakening (and, by extension, her secondary outfit in Three Houses). She loses her coloration for a fur coat look as a Wolf Knight, which may be the generic reclass outfit.

Yes, I had forgotten but they showed off what seemed to be the ability to equip 4 skills: 1 personal, 1 class, 2 from emblem so they do seem to be emphasizing the emblems more for acquiring skills. I got the impression, however, that you can't stack skills by learning a skill and equipping the same ring. For example, Marth's ring gives an avoid bonus when wielding swords and that skill can be learned, but I don't think you can add the avoid from both sources—a bit of an incentive to mix and match your rings more. There may be little reason to reclass and honestly I was underwhelmed by most of the class skills—a lot of them are repositionals (by contrast, in Three Houses those are skills you gain from the beginner classes, thus they are underwhelming at advanced) or small bonuses from ally/enemy positioning (which, unless the enemies are quite bulky relative to our DPS, the enemy should be dead before you form those formations).

Only caveat to that is reclassing purely to avoid the level cap is always useful (assuming you hit the level cap at all). I noticed that the second seal menu does not seem to show your current class as an option, so doing so may require two seals to switch to and fro.

Edited January 7, 2023 by FashionEmblem

[FashionEmblem]

Another mechanic that may have already been discussed is preferred weapon + weapon rank boost. If a character has a blue icon for a weapon, they can boost the rank of a class by one. For example, Celine boosts the B tome rank of High Priest to A. However, if a class has multiple weapons they can't hit S rank. For example, the Mage Knight class does not get boosted from A to S tomes for Celine. By contrast, Vander does boost the axe rank of the General class from A to S, since it is mono-weapon. There seems to be no bonus for classes that innately get S since that is the cap, such as Berserker for Vander.

[Hiroki]

1 hour ago, ciphertul said:

Err, Rosado is the pre-promoted flier. Chloe is just a Peg Knight at first.

Yeah, sorry, I mistook a bit the words, since English is not my native language. I was refering to the contrary, as Chloé being in a base class. 

51 minutes ago, FashionEmblem said:

a lot of them are repositionals (by contrast, in Three Houses those are skills you gain from the beginner classes, thus they are underwhelming at advanced) or small bonuses from ally/enemy positioning (which, unless the enemies are quite bulky relative to our DPS, the enemy should be dead before you form those formations).

Well, that's a nice observation. Maybe, in the game, enemies are built stronger and maybe most units can't kill someone in one turn, so you have to carefully reposition yourself often? Maybe it's intended to protect your units if they're weak to break or something against enemy.
Also, they've introduced new mechanics, as Smash or Chain Attack. It's interesting to smash an enemy from a certain position, and it's interesting to have a lot of backup around a strong enemy. That's pure speculation, but maybe this FE put more emphasis on the positioning?

40 minutes ago, FashionEmblem said:

Another mechanic that may have already been discussed is preferred weapon + weapon rank boost. If a character has a blue icon for a weapon, they can boost the rank of a class by one. For example, Celine boosts the B tome rank of High Priest to A. However, if a class has multiple weapons they can't hit S rank. For example, the Mage Knight class does not get boosted from A to S tomes for Celine. By contrast, Vander does boost the axe rank of the General class from A to S, since it is mono-weapon. There seems to be no bonus for classes that innately get S since that is the cap, such as Berserker for Vander.

Well, that's interesting! It leads to some thinking when classing units. Do you want to go for a class with multiple weapons and boost your natural to wield more powerful weapons? Or do you want to go with a mono-weapon class, S rank (without boost), and don't profit from your natural talent (but wielding S-rank weapons, which are stronger). It's interesting indeed.

Moreover, base class don't seem to profit from that boost. In the Vander screenshot, General do have a blue axe at S rank, but Axe Knight and Axe Armor just keep their grey axe at B rank. Is it because base class don't profit from that bonus or because they can't go higher than B rank for a weapon?

---------------------------------------

I just notice that in the Alfred changing class video, He can go from Noble to Noble. But, he needs a second seal, obviously, and to be lvl 20 from the Noble class. Maybe you can go back to the same class at the condition of maxing the class first. It's basically just reseting your level, keeping your stats.

[ciphertul]

28 minutes ago, Hiroki said:

I just notice that in the Alfred changing class video, He can go from Noble to Noble. But, he needs a second seal, obviously, and to be lvl 20 from the Noble class. Maybe you can go back to the same class at the condition of maxing the class first. It's basically just reseting your level, keeping your stats.

Yea, you could do this on Awakening too, pretty much allow you to just loop.

[FashionEmblem]

32 minutes ago, Hiroki said:

I just notice that in the Alfred changing class video, He can go from Noble to Noble. But, he needs a second seal, obviously, and to be lvl 20 from the Noble class. Maybe you can go back to the same class at the condition of maxing the class first. It's basically just reseting your level, keeping your stats.

You're right. I was looking at the Anna class change as a capped Warrior where it doesn't show up, but it's probably just been scrolled off screen. So it likely is just the ability to straightforward infinite loop. I still see little reason to do so in the base classes with no skills to get—maybe if you were really concerned about getting level ups faster? (I'm assuming like Awakening there's a penalty to internal level for exp calculation from promoting). I sawa clip of Framme reclassing from base monk to Archer, but seems more efficient to just Master Seal at level 10 to advanced monk then Second Seal to Sniper/Bow Knight (maybe after picking up the class skill at level 5, if you want). Unless the seal availability is limited somehow to disincentivize that. If you're eventually reclassing people into mounted classes perhaps it makes sense to do so earlier for the extra movement. Last thing to note is that Vander's reclassing options lack anything for an Axe Flier, so I think the pegasi base flier classes are female-locked—means if you want male fliers you are waiting for advanced tier wyverns and griffons.

[Keikyushi]

2 hours ago, FashionEmblem said:

Another mechanic that may have already been discussed is preferred weapon + weapon rank boost. If a character has a blue icon for a weapon, they can boost the rank of a class by one. For example, Celine boosts the B tome rank of High Priest to A. However, if a class has multiple weapons they can't hit S rank. For example, the Mage Knight class does not get boosted from A to S tomes for Celine. By contrast, Vander does boost the axe rank of the General class from A to S, since it is mono-weapon. There seems to be no bonus for classes that innately get S since that is the cap, such as Berserker for Vander.

I want to add that seems like Staff is the exception, as in the main weapon rank can still be boosted to S if the other weapon is staff. Griffin Knight normally has A rank Sword/Lance/Axe, but in the "My First Fire Emblem" video, Chloe has S rank Lance, so I assume her natural talent in Lance can still boost it to S

[Azz]

I'm not sure about that tbh. We have seen that as a Sucesseur Diamant has S rank swords with A rank axes. Unless there is some way outside of proficiencies to increase weapon ranks (maybe arms scrolls?)

Spoiler

 

[Keikyushi]

I mean, that could just be his natural rank. That's an infantry unique class after all, gotta have something over others

[FashionEmblem]

35 minutes ago, kienquocsi said:

I want to add that seems like Staff is the exception, as in the main weapon rank can still be boosted to S if the other weapon is staff. Griffin Knight normally has A rank Sword/Lance/Axe, but in the "My First Fire Emblem" video, Chloe has S rank Lance, so I assume her natural talent in Lance can still boost it to S

Yep, staves are an exception. Mages get S tome and B staves, Martial Monks get S fists and A staves, High Priest gets S staves, B tomes, and C fists. I hadn't noticed S lances on Griffin Knight Chloe, but I had my suspicions. Now I wonder if Royal Knight works the same way, kind of invalidates the Lance Paladin class unless Royal Knight has much worse stats or it's a big pain to get the staff proficiency.

24 minutes ago, Azz said:

I'm not sure about that tbh. We have seen that as a Sucesseur Diamant has S rank swords with A rank axes. Unless there is some way outside of proficiencies to increase weapon ranks (maybe arms scrolls?)

Those weapon ranks are quite high. Contrast that with Alfred's A lances and B swords (he'd get the same ranks as a Sword + Lance Great Knight or Wyvern Knight). Even among infantry Celine's personal promotion is A tomes, B swords, B staves (So, one lower rank in tomes in exchange for her sword access compared to Sage). Honestly, I'm more surprised by the A axes, I would have thought S swords + B axes, maybe. Maybe there's a plot point where the lords get powered up and their personal class weapon ranks are boosted? Or perhaps Diamant is special since Brodia is emphasized as the martial kingdom? I was thinking of reclassing Diamant into Wyvern Knight, assuming swords as his best weapon he'd have kept the same A swords + B axes I was expecting for his personal class; this gives me some pause.

Edited January 7, 2023 by FashionEmblem