Book VII Discussion Thread

[Mercakete]

9 hours ago, Lemmy said:

Calling Gullveig a chess master seems like calling a cake a chess master, a cake can’t create itself or manipulate a baker to make it. Like a baker, Njorthr knew what he was making, the ingredients, put them together, he got what he wanted, just underestimated the scope and how much it would hate him.

 

Kvasir says that she was made by a flaw in time, like how an error in code makes a glitch. That's hardly a cake making itself. It was time itself what made Kvasir/the time loop/etc. according to her voice lines. You equating Njordr to the baker of the cake assumes that he was in fact the one who came up with the idea and made it happen, which is circular logic toward your argument, rather than cited evidence.

According to what I've gathered, here's what IS is saying happened.

Askr normal story timeline up until it reaches the time loop -> Time loop (which has been running but simultaneously hasn't happened yet), AKA, Book 7 before this last loop -> Summoner, Seidr, and friends break the time loop (AKA, Book 7's events) -> History continues past the time loop.

Sub-section: Time Loop

All loops prior to the last one: Time loop/glitch in time happens, resulting in Kvasir and the golden serpent curse existing and having existed throughout what time they would normally take up (the whole thing, including all native elements (the Askrans, Veronica, Njordr, etc.) and how they respond to them.)

In short, Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig only existed within this overlaying alternate reality until time caught up with where in the timeline the glitch takes place and it was "fixed" (more like "altered" really, since Kvasir/Seidr/Gullveig and the golden serpent curse were never "meant" to exist, and were more or less suddenly written into history.) It's kind of like a dream, imagining, or implanted memories. It was real to the one who experienced it, and "happened" but didn't happen. Except that in this case, Seidr continued to exist, even though she didn't begin by being created by a person, or born from parents, but she (as Kvasir) suddenly came into being by a flaw in reality. This is not only from what Kvasir says, but another support to this theory is the opening to the "Seer's (I can't remember the 2nd half of the title right now for some reason)" game mode. In the intro, Gullveig talks about how she was never supposed to have existed (or something like that; I'm going off of memory right now, but the vid is available to view, I'm sure.)

So, it's really complicated and hard to explain, especially without a visual. But that seems to be what IS is trying to say, at least according to my understanding of it after compiling as much as I can with what they've released.

Do note, though, that further released data can amend/clarify/make null any of this. The canon is determined solely by its creator, after all.

9 hours ago, Seafarer said:

I think you're over-extrapolating to suit conclusions you've already come to. Kvasir wasn't born or made, but the curse itself is an entity separate from its host, and it is not part of her while she's in the Kvasir phase. So it's still entirely possible (though obviously not certain) that Njörðr had a hand in the curse's origin (and Gullveig's quotes don't shed any time on the matter...).

Not at all. I thought my earlier comments made it clear that I liked the other theory better than what the new data seems to be pointing to. I'm just taking in the new data and adding it to the whole to figure out what the canon really is. Canon trumps theory as far as what reality within a creative work is, even if it's canon that makes less sense than the theories. That said, once something stops making sense in the face of the data, I discard it. The theories posed here made more sense than the one I'd had before, so I discarded it. But then the new data came out and so I talked about how it adjusts what can or cannot be. That's all.

We know for a fact that Njordr had a part to play in the curse's continuation, but it seems that the curse and Kvasir were both made by the same glitch in time, based on what's been released (Kvasir's quotes as a summoned unit, and that one Seer game mode's intro vid.) It would be nice if we could get more data, though. Confusion in the consumer isn't great when it's about things that are supposed to be clear in a story.

[Lemmy]

3 hours ago, Mercakete said:

Kvasir says that she was made by a flaw in time, like how an error in code makes a glitch. That's hardly a cake making itself. It was time itself what made Kvasir/the time loop/etc. according to her voice lines. You equating Njordr to the baker of the cake assumes that he was in fact the one who came up with the idea and made it happen, which is circular logic toward your argument, rather than cited evidence.

why would Kvasir speak with Njorthr if he wasn't needed, and she didn't need to explain Gullveig, she was just letting him know now is the time to start baking

why does Njorthr insist on creating who will become Heithr (the curse stops without Heithr, Seithr wouldn't be cursed from killing her, and it's through Heithr that he convinces us to get the Ar back)

[Mercakete]

58 minutes ago, Lemmy said:

why would Kvasir speak with Njorthr if he wasn't needed, and she didn't need to explain Gullveig, she was just letting him know now is the time to start baking

why does Njorthr insist on creating who will become Heithr (the curse stops without Heithr, Seithr wouldn't be cursed from killing her, and it's through Heithr that he convinces us to get the Ar back)

I never said he wasn't needed, just that he didn't come up with the plan. She (Gullveig) used him to look after Heidr (and Kvasir while she grew up after losing her memory), and keep events running toward the loop's continuation. He was used, and tricked into thinking he was in control of the plot. (I have actually explained this already, so I won't bother breaking everything down again. ...Actually, since you're confused, maybe I should. What is currently theory/indicated (but not overtly explained yet by IS) will be italicized.)

We'll start with what's chronologically first. So, Kvasir shows up in the past with the knowledge of being Gullveig and knowing how events play out. She hangs out for a while with the summoner before going to Njordr's house (and the Askrans are prevented from following.) There, Kvasir tells Njordr (who is NOT happy about having an uninvited guest) about the future and lies to him about how this plan is good and will help him live forever. Njordr adopts the plan as described ("here's what to expect and when each of these things will happen and what to do when these happen"), and Kvasir loses her memories. Somewhere along the way, as Kvasir is growing up into Seidr, Heidr shows up with the golden serpent curse and a lot of confusion. Njordr takes her in (as per the plan he's following), and she and Kvasir -> Seidr grow up as sisters, fostering a bond. Nerpuz steals Njordr's Ar. Heidr's condition with the curse worsens. News of the golden seer being in the world and destroying stuff starts to spread, as Gullveig has traveled to the past to stir up trouble and get pieces moving. Seidr, not realizing that she's actually Gullveig, follows Njordr's orders to stop Gullveig. Seidr gives a vision to the summoner, then goes to meet said person, also meeting the summoner's allies at around the same time. She takes them to meet Njordr because that's what needs to happen next. Expecting this since he was told about it already, Njordr welcomes the Askrans and makes all benevolent. Also, Heidr gets met by the summoner and friends. Heidr's not doing well, though, and now's the time for Njordr to drop the "I need my Ar but my sister stole it" thing, which he does (and tells Seidr to make a child since Heidr's important to the loop.) The Ar is gotten and returned to Njordr, but Gullveig causes more problems. Njordr gives the Ar to Seidr and tells her to use it to find Gullveig (ironically, that's actually kind of what happens.) Seidr gets her time powers and timeline-jumping happens. Finally, back in the present, Seidr's confronted with Heidr being almost completely consumed by the golden serpent curse. Njordr puts on the pressure (and even argues logically about it being a mercy kill) for Seidr to kill Heidr, which would simultaneously infect Seidr with the golden serpent curse, and scar her heart, both of which lead her to eventually become Gullveig, who intends to destroy the world. Seidr does the thing. Now that he's fully enacted his role in the plan, Njordr drops his act and starts ranting about the truth behind his actions, fully expecting his reward of never dying (as per the promises he was told way back when Kvasir came to him.) But then Gullveig shows up and kills him. Nerpuz shows up.

TIMELINE SPLITS HERE.

Timeline 1: Loop - The golden serpent curse and the anguish of killing her "sister" both wear away at Seidr. However, Briedablik hasn't gone through being blessed by Nerpuz enough to be strong enough to get rid of the golden serpent curse. Unable to fight the golden serpent curse, she succumbs to it and becomes Gullveig. The Askrans do their best to try to defeat her, but being in control of time, she is simply too difficult a foe for them. She kills everyone who opposes her. After killing the summoner, she takes a piece of the summoner's soul, makes Heidr with it, and passes the golden serpent curse onto her. She tells her that her name is Heidr, but the newly-created girl is very, very confused. Still, Gullveig doesn't leave any time for questions or explanations, and she sends her into the past. Then, she reverts herself into Kvasir and goes even further back into the past than she sent Heidr. This is all in order to start the time loop all over again.

Timeline 2: Hope - Briedablik gets blessed by Nerpuz, and it's been blessed by her power enough times in previous loops to be strong enough to get rid of the golden serpent curse. Seidr gets immunized to the curse via being shot by the empowered Briedablik. Then, Nerpuz says that learns that Gullveig and Kvasir need to die. The two of them also now realize that their loop is getting off the rails and that this Seidr is no longer quite their own selves, and that whichever version wins out (the new Seidr or Kvasir/Gullveig) will determine the future. Seidr kills Kvasir, then Gullveig, then brings their souls into her own mind, but is still the one determining the future now (being the only one alive anymore.)

Like I said, Gullveig used Njordr in order to keep things on track while her past self developed into the one who would take on the curse.

Edited in Briedablik's role since I forgot to include it in my initial post.

Also editing this in: This has been the loop the whole time, ever since the first one. There was no loop in which events went differently. Kvasir, appearing in the past, has always known she would become Seidr, and then Gullveig, and then Kvasir again, and all the events which occurred/would occur in the loop. She just started existing as Kvasir in the past one day due to a glitch in time (nothing else made her), and that's the time which Gullveig returned to after becoming Kvasir again. Anything else ignores Kvasir directly stating that she was never created or born, and just "was" due to an error in time. (It's rather plainly stated.) Anything else also ignores Gullveig/Seidr's narration in the trailer for the Seer's Snare (I remembered the name! :D) in which she says that she was never meant to exist and so on.

Unless someone has a theory which can explain this discrepancy, of course; I'd be happy to read it, but these pieces of canon have to be addressed or the theory isn't water-tight. A sound theory explains every piece of canon related to the events described. Anything else is faulty.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Mercakete

[Lemmy]

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

I never said he wasn't needed, just that he didn't come up with the plan. She (Gullveig) used him to look after Heidr (and Kvasir while she grew up after losing her memory), and keep events running toward the loop's continuation. He was used, and tricked into thinking he was in control of the plot. (I have actually explained this already, so I won't bother breaking everything down again. ...Actually, since you're confused, maybe I should. What is currently theory/indicated (but not overtly explained yet by IS) will be italicized.)

We'll start with what's chronologically first. So, Kvasir shows up in the past with the knowledge of being Gullveig and knowing how events play out. She hangs out for a while with the summoner before going to Njordr's house (and the Askrans are prevented from following.) There, Kvasir tells Njordr (who is NOT happy about having an uninvited guest) about the future and lies to him about how this plan is good and will help him live forever. Njordr adopts the plan as described ("here's what to expect and when each of these things will happen and what to do when these happen"), and Kvasir loses her memories.

You'd do better explaining the italicized part, Njorthr was happy enough with the deaths of us mortal insects, and Gullvieg was a legend, something he's vaguely familiar with, there's no reason to assume Kvasir would lie. As a god Njorthr perhaps had a reason to assume he'd be above it all.

I also believe that Gullveig hates Njorthr for setting her creation up, and that Gullveig is right when she says Seithr hates him for it too; but that's my own interpretation.

[Seafarer]

12 hours ago, Mercakete said:

Not at all. I thought my earlier comments made it clear that I liked the other theory better than what the new data seems to be pointing to. I'm just taking in the new data and adding it to the whole to figure out what the canon really is. Canon trumps theory as far as what reality within a creative work is, even if it's canon that makes less sense than the theories. That said, once something stops making sense in the face of the data, I discard it. The theories posed here made more sense than the one I'd had before, so I discarded it. But then the new data came out and so I talked about how it adjusts what can or cannot be. That's all.

We know for a fact that Njordr had a part to play in the curse's continuation, but it seems that the curse and Kvasir were both made by the same glitch in time, based on what's been released (Kvasir's quotes as a summoned unit, and that one Seer game mode's intro vid.) It would be nice if we could get more data, though. Confusion in the consumer isn't great when it's about things that are supposed to be clear in a story.

There are three quotes that I think are relevant to this, and I think you're picking one of them and reading too much into it.

First, there's her summoning quote, which includes "...I was not created—I simply am."

The second one is the one you're leaning hard on: "I was born from a flaw in time. Without it, I would not be."

The third one, though, is from her friend greeting: "Where I came from is unknown to me..." And that, I think, provides enough doubt that we can't completely discard theories where she has an origin that she's simply forgotten.

Also, there's one line in the book's ending that I find interesting: Kvasir says "But there is one part of my memory I've lost... But I believe you know what's missing." I propose that that may refer to her origin, and is intended to be the hook for the eventual Book 7 TT+ story. This line also casts doubt on some of Gullveig's statements about herself, given that she may not remember all that she claims to; plus she tends to claim she has no beginning in the same breath as she claims she has no end (see 13-1 and 4-2), and we've definitively proven the latter claim to be false.

I wonder whether the Japanese is any more explicit? Probably not, but it might be worth a look if someone speaks Japanese.

EDIT: Ooh, alternative hypothesis that fits both "Kvasir has an origin she can't remember" and "Njörðr is and always was a patsy": Alfaðör created her as Kvasir with false memories of having already done what he wanted her to do. He's been described as having unlimited power after all, and I believe that Freyja's warning of Alfonse ceasing to exist at his will was a reference to Gullveig's actions at the end of chapter 13, strengthening the link between this book and Book 4.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Seafarer

[Mercakete]

16 hours ago, Lemmy said:

You'd do better explaining the italicized part, Njorthr was happy enough with the deaths of us mortal insects, and Gullvieg was a legend, something he's vaguely familiar with, there's no reason to assume Kvasir would lie. As a god Njorthr perhaps had a reason to assume he'd be above it all.

I also believe that Gullveig hates Njorthr for setting her creation up, and that Gullveig is right when she says Seithr hates him for it too; but that's my own interpretation.

Well, all the prior stuff was me trying to explain the italicized part, but I'll do my best to clarify it. Basically, it's all context.

We chased Kvasir to Njordr's house before we were taken from the past (and at that time, Kvasir had the knowledge of who she would become.) Seidr doesn't remember her past, and was raised by Njordr as the sister of Heidr. Njordr knew what was coming at every phase and what to do which each event (almost as though someone told him, hm?) It was Gullveig who knew the entirety of the plan, and no one else (including Njordr) and Gullveig who restarted the cycle, made Heidr, and infected Heidr with the curse at the end of every cycle. Basically, in each instance, Gullveig is the one in control and making autonomous decisions. When Njordr snapped and explaine dhis motives, he just wanted to live forever and that's it. He's always disliked mortals, even since before he met Kvasir. (Nerpuz tells us as much when we meet her in the past. That's why she's trying to stop us from going to his place -- she wants to protect us from her brother, who has no tolerance for humans.) Gullveig needed Njordr to set things up for Seidr to become her. Njordr didn't need Gullveig for anything, except that he thought that he would never die if she came to be (which was obviously a lie since she killed him and there's nothing about her at all which would suggest that he'd live forever if she's around unless she lied to him herself about that.)

Anyway, all those pieces point to the theories I explained. That's where my logic took me, based on the evidence I had on hand.

11 hours ago, Seafarer said:

There are three quotes that I think are relevant to this, and I think you're picking one of them and reading too much into it.

First, there's her summoning quote, which includes "...I was not created—I simply am."

The second one is the one you're leaning hard on: "I was born from a flaw in time. Without it, I would not be."

The third one, though, is from her friend greeting: "Where I came from is unknown to me..." And that, I think, provides enough doubt that we can't completely discard theories where she has an origin that she's simply forgotten.

Also, there's one line in the book's ending that I find interesting: Kvasir says "But there is one part of my memory I've lost... But I believe you know what's missing." I propose that that may refer to her origin, and is intended to be the hook for the eventual Book 7 TT+ story. This line also casts doubt on some of Gullveig's statements about herself, given that she may not remember all that she claims to; plus she tends to claim she has no beginning in the same breath as she claims she has no end (see 13-1 and 4-2), and we've definitively proven the latter claim to be false.

I wonder whether the Japanese is any more explicit? Probably not, but it might be worth a look if someone speaks Japanese.

EDIT: Ooh, alternative hypothesis that fits both "Kvasir has an origin she can't remember" and "Njörðr is and always was a patsy": Alfaðör created her as Kvasir with false memories of having already done what he wanted her to do. He's been described as having unlimited power after all, and I believe that Freyja's warning of Alfonse ceasing to exist at his will was a reference to Gullveig's actions at the end of chapter 13, strengthening the link between this book and Book 4.

I'm always open toward and happy to read other information germane towards story theory that others have picked up on that I've missed, so this is fun! 🙂

Regarding the part where Kvasir says "But there is one part of my memory I've lost," I interpreted that as referring to just after meeting Njordr (especially since she also says that Seidr is aware of that part of missing memory and what it's from.) Seidr says that she was taken in by Njordr and was raised by him, and Heidr eventually came into the picture, too, and they lived as sisters (which all lines up with Gullveig's machinations to get Seidr to turn into her and continue the cycle, so that's very likely the reason why things played out that way) Basically, her memory starts there, which means that she loses her memories of being Kvasir and Gullveig after coming into Njordr's care. It could be that she lost her memory twice, though (maybe once after becoming Kvasir from Gullveig and once after becoming Seidr from Kvasir.) Maybe instead of development, she had more of a metamorphosis at each phase, during which her memories get scrambled? The only one we see, really, is Gullveig becoming Kvasir, but instantaneous transformation makes sense when going backwards like that.

And yeah, I've been thinking about that, too (regarding the Japanese perhaps being clearer in intent) but it's actually a very contextual language, so maybe not. That said, I'm still somewhere between beginner and intermediate in my studies of the language, so I'm really no expert. That said, hopefully the translators IS picked are doing the jobs they were hired for and properly giving us exactly what is intended in the story.

Anyway, do you have anything to say about the quotes in the opening movie for the Seer's Snare? I feel like that really adds some structural integrity to the "Kvasir was born from a flaw in time" theory (well, sort of theory. I feel like it's one of the few overtly stated things we have here.)

As for the Alfador theory, maybe? I feel like that's kind of reaching, though, in that there's not a lot of evidence to support it. So, I'd be cautious about leaning too much into it, especially since IS likes to keep their books fairly stand-alone. I was surprised they even mentioned Freyr/Freyja in this book, since they have stated that they'd like to make it so that new players can jump into the latest book without needing to play previous ones for context.

Whatever the case, I'm looking forward to this story stabilizing. Speaking professionally, if your story is done (no sequels planned, etc.), then you should have as many threads tied off by the time the consumer finishes it as possible and not leave plot holes. So it's annoying that there's so much that isn't explained even though the book's done. At least they gave us Kvasir quotes to fill in some of the gaps (that's how it looks to me, anyway) and maybe we'll get a TT+ main story to help for the fallen banner again (that Seidr pulled Kvasir and Gullveig into herself and even talked about how they'd kind of fill in the gaps in each other's memories could be a hint towards this "collaborative introspection") but I still wish that the book ended more satisfactorily, personally speaking.

[Seafarer]

9 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I'm always open toward and happy to read other information germane towards story theory that others have picked up on that I've missed, so this is fun! 🙂

Regarding the part where Kvasir says "But there is one part of my memory I've lost," I interpreted that as referring to just after meeting Njordr (especially since she also says that Seidr is aware of that part of missing memory and what it's from.) Seidr says that she was taken in by Njordr and was raised by him, and Heidr eventually came into the picture, too, and they lived as sisters (which all lines up with Gullveig's machinations to get Seidr to turn into her and continue the cycle, so that's very likely the reason why things played out that way) Basically, her memory starts there, which means that she loses her memories of being Kvasir and Gullveig after coming into Njordr's care. It could be that she lost her memory twice, though (maybe once after becoming Kvasir from Gullveig and once after becoming Seidr from Kvasir.) Maybe instead of development, she had more of a metamorphosis at each phase, during which her memories get scrambled? The only one we see, really, is Gullveig becoming Kvasir, but instantaneous transformation makes sense when going backwards like that.

And yeah, I've been thinking about that, too (regarding the Japanese perhaps being clearer in intent) but it's actually a very contextual language, so maybe not. That said, I'm still somewhere between beginner and intermediate in my studies of the language, so I'm really no expert. That said, hopefully the translators IS picked are doing the jobs they were hired for and properly giving us exactly what is intended in the story.

Anyway, do you have anything to say about the quotes in the opening movie for the Seer's Snare? I feel like that really adds some structural integrity to the "Kvasir was born from a flaw in time" theory (well, sort of theory. I feel like it's one of the few overtly stated things we have here.)

As for the Alfador theory, maybe? I feel like that's kind of reaching, though, in that there's not a lot of evidence to support it. So, I'd be cautious about leaning too much into it, especially since IS likes to keep their books fairly stand-alone. I was surprised they even mentioned Freyr/Freyja in this book, since they have stated that they'd like to make it so that new players can jump into the latest book without needing to play previous ones for context.

Whatever the case, I'm looking forward to this story stabilizing. Speaking professionally, if your story is done (no sequels planned, etc.), then you should have as many threads tied off by the time the consumer finishes it as possible and not leave plot holes. So it's annoying that there's so much that isn't explained even though the book's done. At least they gave us Kvasir quotes to fill in some of the gaps (that's how it looks to me, anyway) and maybe we'll get a TT+ main story to help for the fallen banner again (that Seidr pulled Kvasir and Gullveig into herself and even talked about how they'd kind of fill in the gaps in each other's memories could be a hint towards this "collaborative introspection") but I still wish that the book ended more satisfactorily, personally speaking.

For the bold: I assumed she was addressing Gullveig, not Seiðr, since that's who replies to her. Actually, I wonder when Gullveig got all her memories back, because she seems to remember being Kvasir...

I did look at the Seer's Snare intro, but I didn't think it was relevant, given that a) it's still Gullveig speaking, so it's subject to the possibility of her memory being incomplete and b) she just calls herself a paradox, which she is: a bootstrap paradox; but a bootstrap paradox can have an origin in the context of multiple timelines; it's only observing a single timeline externally that causes it to be paradoxical. In other words, it's possible for there to be an "original" timeline that did not have the time loop, but in which events transpired to set up the time loop that is all we can observe from our vantage point.

The Alfaðör thing was just a bit of wild mass guessing, lol. But it's a possibility that could be confirmed well before the TT story, given that I'm fairly sure Book 8 is going to be Asgard, and I drew the connection because Kvasir also mentions Asgard in her lines (which I forgot to mention in that post... whoops!)

[Etrurian emperor]

Now she's revealed I find baby Freya and her backstory in general kinda cowardly.

Freya's turned into an insane yandere because she got bullied as a kid and people only loved her when she grew up to be beautiful. This could be reinforced if baby Freya was fat, plump or at least ''plain'' like Dorothy, but the baby Freya we got was way too moe to get bullied over her appearance. Freyer says what got her bullied was a birthmark which is implies the devs specifically chose a bullying reason that gave them wriggle room to give baby Freya a conventional cute design rather than something like Meg.

And that's a shame. Because baby Freya being yet another moe girl is a missed opportunity. Some variety in female designs wouldn't be amiss. Both in terms of originality as well as her backstory a less conventionally cute baby Freya would work far better. 

[Mercakete]

13 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Now she's revealed I find baby Freya and her backstory in general kinda cowardly.

Freya's turned into an insane yandere because she got bullied as a kid and people only loved her when she grew up to be beautiful. This could be reinforced if baby Freya was fat, plump or at least ''plain'' like Dorothy, but the baby Freya we got was way too moe to get bullied over her appearance. Freyer says what got her bullied was a birthmark which is implies the devs specifically chose a bullying reason that gave them wriggle room to give baby Freya a conventional cute design rather than something like Meg.

And that's a shame. Because baby Freya being yet another moe girl is a missed opportunity. Some variety in female designs wouldn't be amiss. Both in terms of originality as well as her backstory a less conventionally cute baby Freya would work far better. 

"But she's popular so we had to make her cute and someone people could feel sorry for." *sigh* Honestly, with the number of female characters we have, greater variety in design is practically required. The odds are just too terrible that EVERYONE would fit into the "conventional eye candy" mold. Even with as few male characters as we have, there's more variance in their designs than in the female ones. I get that accuracy to odds isn't IS' focus -- they're trying to market -- but it doesn't feel very good. Oh well. I'll enjoy what I can from it. (Also, Eitr is NOT a child. She's a young adult or teenager at youngest. That said, she is absolutely a brat if being teased made her decide it was a good idea to destroy all humans because of her jealousy because her brother is only allowed to pay attention to her.)

[ARMADS!!!]

On 12/4/2023 at 11:31 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Now she's revealed I find baby Freya and her backstory in general kinda cowardly.

Freya's turned into an insane yandere because she got bullied as a kid and people only loved her when she grew up to be beautiful. This could be reinforced if baby Freya was fat, plump or at least ''plain'' like Dorothy, but the baby Freya we got was way too moe to get bullied over her appearance. Freyer says what got her bullied was a birthmark which is implies the devs specifically chose a bullying reason that gave them wriggle room to give baby Freya a conventional cute design rather than something like Meg.

And that's a shame. Because baby Freya being yet another moe girl is a missed opportunity. Some variety in female designs wouldn't be amiss. Both in terms of originality as well as her backstory a less conventionally cute baby Freya would work far better. 

I agree completely, making a barely noticeable mark be the motive for bullying was the worst possible thing they could've come up with, even if they didn't want to make her ugly for real or even "ugly", they could've come up with something that's considered pretty by a bunch of people but that are also normal reasons that kids pick on other kids for (such as being too tall/short, too pale, broad shoulders or big feet/hands, being way too thin, a bunch of freckles, large forehead, tooth gap, maybe a big scar) or some invented reason that could work like that (like having ugly horns or whatever) or maybe having she get bullied for having bad hair so she cut it shorter (which would result in not having to show her hair), or even easier: Something not appearence wise like walking in a strange way, having some speech impediment, being too dumb, being that kid that wears weird clothes or eats weird lunchs/likes weird stuff, or everyone found out the boy she liked, literally dozens of possible motives... BUT A BIRTH MARK??. It's really as if no one at IS had ever suffered bullying or even been picked on when they were kids and had also never met anyone that was. Like most kids, I've been picked on at school a bit and a bunch of my friends too, but I have a very visible birth mark on my leg that is bigger than a large coin and that was never one of the reasons, had classmates with huge birthmarks on their faces and no one ever found it funny it too, even as kids.

 This one really pissed me off, I already disliked Freyja enough.

 

 Anyway, back on book VII, I didnt post my thoughts about the book here not even once I think (I was gonna do it on the beggining of the book but ended up erasing my whole post by accident before posting so I got pissed and gave up on doing it for some months out of spite, later I pretty much was not liking the story enough to write on it + was not very active neither on the forum or on the game + have been pretty busy, so I ended up not doing it, the end of the book and the release of book VIII lit up my spark of doing these paragraphs so I came here to share my thoughts on the end...). Anyway I don't wanna make it TOO large so I'll try to keep it as short as possible:

• This one was, by far, the worst book on my opinion. Seidr is the worst OC by far too, she's what I thought that Ash was gonna be (but was glad that wasn't) when Book VI's trailer came out: Annoying, corny, ridiculously in love with Kiran and using clumsiness as a quirk (in Seidr's case is worse and more gimmicky than I ever suspected Ash was gonna be, because it's just her "bad sense of direction"). I didn't like any of the characters of the book (not that I hated everyone, but they were all either neutral or worse than that) and half of them were Seidr. I don't really like Gullveig either (not sure if I dislike her, but she might be the worst big bad, after Freyja of course).
• I was extremelly excited when I saw we were about to get a book with time travel and that the chapters were gonna be out of order, but ended being very disappointed with it... Maybe the story looks better if tou play the chapters in numerical order after playing it as they were intended to be? I'll try to do this one day but it won't be now that I'll have the patience to do it.
• The ending was shit, rushed and senseless (or at least it seemeed to be rushed and senseless, maybe if I play the whole book at once it might make more sense, i don't know), I detested that Gullveig and Kvasir came back at the end (and the lame ass excuse that Gullveig can be there while not being affected by the curse just because they wanted a "cute ending" with Seidr being able to talk to her other selves whenever she wanted to, for some reason), I'm almost sure that they just did this to not have to think of an excuse to ressurect them when book VII's TT+ time comes. It was even bigger of a let down because books V and VI had pretty good epilogues and it seemed like it was the norm now.
• The ending video was such a waste too, they could've done anything but it's literally the EXACT SAME THING that happens on the final chapter, but shorter and with no dialogue, it didn't have to be something important lore wise, could've been just a cute scene like book VI's, I get that book III's ending movie was like VII's too but it was the first one of these movies so it was justifiable, this one now seemed lazy to be like that and it didn't even had any dialogue like book III's had, not even on the Seidr scene with her other selves at the end, so it looks even lazier. The music on the ending movie was pretty damn good though.
•  The things I liked were: If I hadn't seen it pointed out here (I didn't post on this thread but I did read he posts that were made here on the first months) I wouldn't have guessed that Njordr was gonna be evil, making it look like Gullveig was obviously Heidr only for her to be Seidr was a great red herring and plot twist too, I liked the CG of Njordr's death and appreciate that they didn't make the CGs be a a book VI thing only, the music on the whole book and ending movie were great. I was a big fan of Alsonse's monologue to Kiran at the end, it showed that he has a very "king like" mentality (maybe he always sorta had, but I still liked the monologue a lot).
•  I'm not surprised Njordr got the Freyr/Fafnir/Elm/Bruno treatment but I'm okayish with it as he's the one that deserves it the most out of them (actually, maybe Freyr deserved it more but I like him better so I was more upset when he didn't get on the game back at book IV's time than I'm at Njordr's current ausence).
•  This one is probably a superficial one, and I know it's only a personal preference of mine, but I really don't like it when they make the OC's OG alt on this artstyle that Book IV and Book VII have, not that I think they all have to be drawn by Kozaki Yusuke (book II OCs, Thórr and some of the TT+ OC's are not and I like most of their designs and arts) but something about having the OC's OG art be like Plumeria, Seidr, Gullveig, Heidr or Nerfus make it a bit... iffy (for lack of a better word). It's a bit hard to explain, I don't mind that B!Gullveig or S!Freyja were drawn on this style but for some reason having their OG alts be like that bother me, it's not only about the considerable larger amount of fanservice compared to most of the other OCs but I think that having them have such different body proportions (such as eyes, neck, legs, hands, shoulders to head ratio, etc... I'm not talking only about the chest) and visibly different lighting and less contour makes them look a bit out of place there, I mind it a bit less with Freyr and Njordr, probably because the men in this arstyle have less blatanly different body proportions compared to the men on the usual arstyle of OG arts (plus the men weren't victims of obinoxious fanservice here). To make it worse, this book made them way more obviously turned to fanservice than book IV characters (barring Plumeria) were (with stockings that seem to be crushing their legs, a lot less clothes and every piece of cothing is VERY tight, everyone has giant tits now while on book IV it was only Plumeria,...). Also their OGs designs are pretty cool so I keep imagining how Seidr and Gullveig would look if they were drawn by Kozaki Yusuke or Maeshima Shigeki or at least in an artsyle that resembles the one used on the OC's OG arts, they'd look pretty cool and less... iffy, I think. Not shitting on the artist, I know it's not their fault and I think the artsyle has it's place (I'm a huge fan of it on S!Freyja for example) but for me, this place is not on the OG arts of any FE character. I know this should bother me less but since the moment I saw that book IV's artist was doing the OCs on this book (and that there was such an obinoxious amount of fanservice compared to book IV- and I underline the "obinoxious" part because I like fanservice when it's done tastefully like with Alfonse's parents, Bruno or Peony), I became pretty disappointed.

Edited December 9, 2023 by ARMADS!!!

[Mercakete]

10 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

I agree completely, making a barely noticeable mark be the motive for bullying was the worst possible thing they could've come up with, even if they didn't want to make her ugly for real or even "ugly", they could've come up with something that's considered pretty by a bunch of people but that are also normal reasons that kids pick on other kids for (such as being too tall/short, too pale, broad shoulders or big feet/hands, being way too thin, a bunch of freckles, large forehead, tooth gap, maybe a big scar) or some invented reason that could work like that (like having ugly horns or whatever) or maybe having she get bullied for having bad hair so she cut it shorter (which would result in not having to show her hair), or even easier: Something not appearence wise like walking in a strange way, having some speech impediment, being too dumb, being that kid that wears weird clothes or eats weird lunchs/likes weird stuff, or everyone found out the boy she liked, literally dozens of possible motives... BUT A BIRTH MARK??. It's really as if no one at IS had ever suffered bullying or even been picked on when they were kids and had also never met anyone that was. Like most kids, I've been picked on at school a bit and a bunch of my friends too, but I have a very visible birth mark on my leg that is bigger than a large coin and that was never one of the reasons, had classmates with huge birthmarks on their faces and no one ever found it funny it too, even as kids.

 This one really pissed me off, I already disliked Freyja enough.

 

 Anyway, back on book VII, I didnt post my thoughts about the book here not even once I think (I was gonna do it on the beggining of the book but ended up erasing my whole post by accident before posting so I got pissed and gave up on doing it for some months out of spite, later I pretty much was not liking the story enough to write on it + was not very active neither on the forum or on the game + have been pretty busy, so I ended up not doing it, the end of the book and the release of book VIII lit up my spark of doing these paragraphs so I came here to share my thoughts on the end...). Anyway I don't wanna make it TOO large so I'll try to keep it as short as possible:

• This one was, by far, the worst book on my opinion. Seidr is the worst OC by far too, she's what I thought that Ash was gonna be (but was glad that wasn't) when Book VI's trailer came out: Annoying, corny, ridiculously in love with Kiran and using clumsiness as a quirk (in Seidr's case is worse and more gimmicky than I ever suspected Ash was gonna be, because it's just her "bad sense of direction"). I didn't like any of the characters of the book (not that I hated everyone, but they were all either neutral or worse than that) and half of them were Seidr. I don't really like Gullveig either (not sure if I dislike her, but she might be the worst big bad, after Freyja of course).
• I was extremelly excited when I saw we were about to get a book with time travel and that the chapters were gonna be out of order, but ended being very disappointed with it... Maybe the story looks better if tou play the chapters in numerical order after playing it as they were intended to be? I'll try to do this one day but it won't be now that I'll have the patience to do it.
• The ending was shit, rushed and senseless (or at least it seemeed to be rushed and senseless, maybe if I play the whole book at once it might make more sense, i don't know), I detested that Gullveig and Kvasir came back at the end (and the lame ass excuse that Gullveig can be there while not being affected by the curse just because they wanted a "cute ending" with Seidr being able to talk to her other selves whenever she wanted to, for some reason), I'm almost sure that they just did this to not have to think of an excuse to ressurect them when book VII's TT+ time comes. It was even bigger of a let down because books V and VI had pretty good epilogues and it seemed like it was the norm now.
• The ending video was such a waste too, they could've done anything but it's literally the EXACT SAME THING that happens on the final chapter, but shorter and with no dialogue, it didn't have to be something important lore wise, could've been just a cute scene like book VI's, I get that book III's ending movie was like VII's too but it was the first one of these movies so it was justifiable, this one now seemed lazy to be like that and it didn't even had any dialogue like book III's had, not even on the Seidr scene with her other selves at the end, so it looks even lazier. The music on the ending movie was pretty damn good though.
•  The things I liked were: If I hadn't seen it pointed out here (I didn't post on this thread but I did read he posts that were made here on the first months) I wouldn't have guessed that Njordr was gonna be evil, making it look like Gullveig was obviously Heidr only for her to be Seidr was a great red herring and plot twist too, I liked the CG of Njordr's death and appreciate that they didn't make the CGs be a a book VI thing only, the music on the whole book and ending movie were great. I was a big fan of Alsonse's monologue to Kiran at the end, it showed that he has a very "king like" mentality (maybe he always sorta had, but I still liked the monologue a lot).
•  I'm not surprised Njordr got the Freyr/Fafnir/Elm/Bruno treatment but I'm okayish with it as he's the one that deserves it the most out of them (actually, maybe Freyr deserved it more but I like him better so I was more upset when he didn't get on the game back at book IV's time than I'm at Njordr's current ausence).
•  This one is probably a superficial one, and I know it's only a personal preference of mine, but I really don't like it when they make the OC's OG alt on this artstyle that Book IV and Book VII have, not that I think they all have to be drawn by Kozaki Yusuke (book II OCs, Thórr and some of the TT+ OC's are not and I like most of their designs and arts) but something about having the OC's OG art be like Plumeria, Seidr, Gullveig, Heidr or Nerfus make it a bit... iffy (for lack of a better word). It's a bit hard to explain, I don't mind that B!Gullveig or S!Freyja were drawn on this style but for some reason having their OG alts be like that bother me, it's not only about the considerable larger amount of fanservice compared to most of the other OCs but I think that having them have such different body proportions (such as eyes, neck, legs, hands, shoulders to head ratio, etc... I'm not talking only about the chest) and visibly different lighting and less contour makes them look a bit out of place there, I mind it a bit less with Freyr and Njordr, probably because the men in this arstyle have less blatanly different body proportions compared to the men on the usual arstyle of OG arts (plus the men weren't victims of obinoxious fanservice here). To make it worse, this book made them way more obviously turned to fanservice than book IV characters (barring Plumeria) were (with stockings that seem to be crushing their legs, a lot less clothes and every piece of cothing is VERY tight, everyone has giant tits now while on book IV it was only Plumeria,...). Also their OGs designs are pretty cool so I keep imagining how Seidr and Gullveig would look if they were drawn by Kozaki Yusuke or Maeshima Shigeki or at least in an artsyle that resembles the one used on the OC's OG arts, they'd look pretty cool and less... iffy, I think. Not shitting on the artist, I know it's not their fault and I think the artsyle has it's place (I'm a huge fan of it on S!Freyja for example) but for me, this place is not on the OG arts of any FE character. I know this should bother me less but since the moment I saw that book IV's artist was doing the OCs on this book (and that there was such an obinoxious amount of fanservice compared to book IV- and I underline the "obinoxious" part because I like fanservice when it's done tastefully like with Alfonse's parents, Bruno or Peony), I became pretty disappointed.

Good to hear from you!

I have to say, it was really nice reading your thoughts. You were able to put to words some things I wasn't sure how to say, but when I read it, I was like "that's it exactly!"

You came up with some great things that Eitr could have been bullied for, and while I get that birthmarks can be a thing people get teased for, it's usually obvious ones. Eitr's is covered up by her hair (I get why she did that, but it would be effective at reducing the ridicule, which defeats the plot purpose of it) and it's not a super obvious biwthmark to begin with. Plus, she's a goddess. Was she actually born, or was it a soul thing? If it's a soul thing like with Heidr's creation, then it doesn't make sense for there to even be a birthmark. I'm pretty sure Njordr's her dad (since Freyr mentions in a castle conversation that Nerpuz is his father's sister, and I don't know of Nerpuz having any other brothers, and well, I'm fairly certain that Freyr and Freyja have the same dad) but we don't know who her mom is. It's very probably Njordr who teaches Seidr about how to make a baby from a piece of a mortal's soul, too, so it certainly makes it possible that Freyr and Freyja were made in the same way.

Another thing is that Seidr's bad sense of direction didn't even last the whole book. It was a "cute quirk" that feels like it got forgotten about (but I guess getting time travel powers somehow gave her her sense of direction back? They could play it off that way if they wanted to.) But yeah, it was pretty random. Would've been funny, though, if it affected her time travel. Like, "And here we are, in the future! ... Why are there dinosaurs?"

I kind of agree about the ending movie, too. I guess at least it gives a better visual if you watch it side by side with the ending in the story? Nerpuz randomly being able to give Seidr the ability to have her other selves live within her makes no sense, though. It feels like a cop out. That said, it does open up interesting plot opportunities, so I'm not going to complain about it.

Personally, I'm annoyed at the handling of Njordr (his motivations and composure especially), but I've already talked about that on here so I'll leave that alone. He could have been such a nice, complex character, though -- it's such a shame.

And man, I completely agree with what you mean about the character designs! It was well said on many counts, but I'm especially glad I'm not the only one annoyed with the clothing choices. Their poor circulation... Someone is certainly going to get blood clots in their legs.

[ARMADS!!!]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:59 PM, Mercakete said:

Good to hear from you!

I have to say, it was really nice reading your thoughts. You were able to put to words some things I wasn't sure how to say, but when I read it, I was like "that's it exactly!"

 

Thanks! I appreciate so much how the people here always give me a warm greeting when I come back (or when I say I'll post something later, someone always replies mentioning that they'll be waiting, and other things like this), people tend to treat each others genuinely nice here and seem to genuinely care about the other users, I even remember one time when there was a quick conversation on a thread of theories about the next Mythic/Legendary where everyone was wondering if the person that usually made the threads was alright because they haven't been posting anything for a while, and another time when a user said she had been having some bad days because her father had died and everyone on the thread wished her the best or shared similar feelings. At this point I basically consider SF as sort of one of my social circles instead of just another forum that you sometimes ask stuff or answer random people (although a social circle where you don't know everyone and even the people you do know/always interact with, you don't exactly know for real, but that's not a problem at all, in fact not knowing people here in real life actually does encourages me to be open about stuff I'd hardly be otherwise).

 

On 12/9/2023 at 2:59 PM, Mercakete said:

I have to say, it was really nice reading your thoughts. You were able to put to words some things I wasn't sure how to say, but when I read it, I was like "that's it exactly!"

You came up with some great things that Eitr could have been bullied for, and while I get that birthmarks can be a thing people get teased for, it's usually obvious ones. Eitr's is covered up by her hair (I get why she did that, but it would be effective at reducing the ridicule, which defeats the plot purpose of it) and it's not a super obvious biwthmark to begin with. Plus, she's a goddess. Was she actually born, or was it a soul thing? If it's a soul thing like with Heidr's creation, then it doesn't make sense for there to even be a birthmark. I'm pretty sure Njordr's her dad (since Freyr mentions in a castle conversation that Nerpuz is his father's sister, and I don't know of Nerpuz having any other brothers, and well, I'm fairly certain that Freyr and Freyja have the same dad) but we don't know who her mom is. It's very probably Njordr who teaches Seidr about how to make a baby from a piece of a mortal's soul, too, so it certainly makes it possible that Freyr and Freyja were made in the same way.

Another thing is that Seidr's bad sense of direction didn't even last the whole book. It was a "cute quirk" that feels like it got forgotten about (but I guess getting time travel powers somehow gave her her sense of direction back? They could play it off that way if they wanted to.) But yeah, it was pretty random. Would've been funny, though, if it affected her time travel. Like, "And here we are, in the future! ... Why are there dinosaurs?"

I kind of agree about the ending movie, too. I guess at least it gives a better visual if you watch it side by side with the ending in the story? Nerpuz randomly being able to give Seidr the ability to have her other selves live within her makes no sense, though. It feels like a cop out. That said, it does open up interesting plot opportunities, so I'm not going to complain about it.

Personally, I'm annoyed at the handling of Njordr (his motivations and composure especially), but I've already talked about that on here so I'll leave that alone. He could have been such a nice, complex character, though -- it's such a shame.

And man, I completely agree with what you mean about the character designs! It was well said on many counts, but I'm especially glad I'm not the only one annoyed with the clothing choices. Their poor circulation... Someone is certainly going to get blood clots in their legs.

 Glad I could express myself right, after I come back and start to do these giant texts I always wonder if I've lost my hability to express myself well in english and that my thoughts might come across wrong.

 Good points on Freyja's birth's circumstances (like the soul thing, Njordr being the one to teach Seidr about it, the point of Njordr being her dad (Idk why but I simply glossed over this fact during the story and automatically assumed that Nerfus and Njordr had another sibling that was Freyja's father/mother)), although I guess it could be possible for her to have a birth mark if it acted as some kind of minor "defect on the creation" or something like that (like those toys that come with a little extra plastic on the corners or that have a tiny bit of paint from the eye coming out of the eye's border), still a stupid motive to be bullied for and something that was very easy to hide, even more useless because now I remembered that they only used the bullying story on book IV to give Freyja a reason to admire Freyr and be possessive of him for being the only one who treated her well or something, they could've just came up with any other excuse for that. Going back on the circumstances of the gods's births, I wonder if it's a common thing for them to have different names when they're born since we already had two cases like this: Seidr who was Kvasir and Freyja who was Eitr, I get that the real life explanation is that the story only did it for the plot twist of them being the same person but it's still something nice to think about.

 Sheesh, I didn't even remember that they dropped the bad sense of direction thing on the mid of the story :P. I think she actually went to the wrong time once though but I don't remember if it really happened or if it was just a thing I thought that would, could be nice if done right, specially if Seidr was a bit less dull as a whole, because a dull character having a gimmick like this looks lazy but if a complex character happens to have one little gimmick it will usually not be annoying.

 I don't remember seeing nothing that seemed like a waste with Njordr, but also most of the book is sort of a blur right now, I think that I remeber being satisfied enough with him but later I'll go back on the other post of the thread and read what you wrote about him to refresh my memory a bit and to see what you mean.

 Glad I could express myself well on the character design point, I felt like I had to choose my words wisely on this one (and think well of my examples) for it to not sound like I was writing a whole paragraph just for being salty or biased against the artist or biased towards Kozaki Yusuke, or for it to not sound too "fanservice bad" (which would be pretty hypocrite coming from me since there were several times where I openly celebrated fanservicey arts on special heroes threads), I was also fearing that someone would counter the whole paragraph with "but what about Loki?" or "it's not the artist fault, that's all comes down yo your personal taste"(It'd be specially bad to perpatuate hate for the artist in these times that people are sending them death threads and the sorts) or something like this, so I had to try to point out exactly what was it that I didn't like for it to not come across wrong. Anyway, it's great to see that someone agrees with it (the way the clothes squeeze their bodies makes it look like their tights are made of balloon). On the topic, yesterday I just realized that NY!Gunthrá was drawn by Yoshiku too, and she's always been among my favorite arts on the game, just mentioning this to really underline that is not the artist's fault and that the hate is not towards them.

Edited December 11, 2023 by ARMADS!!!

[Mercakete]

8 hours ago, ARMADS!!! said:

Going back on the circumstances of the gods's births, I wonder if it's a common thing for them to have different names when they're born since we already had two cases like this: Seidr who was Kvasir and Freyja who was Eitr, I get that the real life explanation is that the story only did it for the plot twist of them being the same person but it's still something nice to think about.

I think that has less to do with names at creation vs names later on and more to do with identity hiding/keeping identities/roles straight. Gullveig knew how time would go, such as when she'd lose her memory as Kvasir. Personally, I think Kvasir came first as a glitch in time (but at the time, still knew about all the loop's events) and told Njordr what to do (including to start calling her Seidr after she lost her memory.) Gullveig having a different name helps to set her apart as "that one villain everyone needs to focus on" which protects her Seidr self (note how no one in the story jumped to attacking Seidr or anything since their focus was on Gullveig, but if they knew Seidr and Gullveig were the same person before they became friends with Seidr, that could have been a problem. Worse, if Seidr herself made the connection of who she was (Kvasir and Gullveig) too early and Heidr's role couldn't have been set up properly in order to transfer the curse.) As for Eitr, Lady Gagap gave her a new identity because she didn't want her figuring out that she was Freyja.

Besides this, Heidr got her name upon her creation and it never changed.

Quote

Sheesh, I didn't even remember that they dropped the bad sense of direction thing on the mid of the story :P. I think she actually went to the wrong time once though but I don't remember if it really happened or if it was just a thing I thought that would,

That was explained as unrelated to her bad sense of direction. It was just "I'm new at this and time travel is hard and complicated." Also, I don't quite remember, but I think it could have been that Gullveig was attacking too, or something. I don't think they went to the wrong place, exactly, but Kiran did get separated from the rest of them and wound up showing up further into the past than the rest of them did.

 

I just decided to address a couple things I had knowledge on, but yeah, your thoughts are fun to read. 🙂