The Game Awards announced Fire Emblem Engage is getting an Expansion Pass

[vanguard333]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I suppose. I guess they thought even saying it's an alternate version of events would've given out too much. More so since it's not we even had a full picture of how things went originally.

Still, I don't know. To me, it gives me the same vibes as hearing Obi-Wan saying in A New Hope: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader... He betrayed and murdered your father." and then complaining after watching The Empire Strikes Back that you were lied to. But well, that's may be just me.

Maddening was in Wave 2. Wave 1 were the Officer Academy Outfits for Byleth, which was paid content. All waves had paid content, and all but Wave 1 had free content too.

Honestly, the best way they could've avoided backlash would've been to actually make a prequel to Breath of the Wild; it's obvious from how the game was marketed that at least one person at both companies knew that audiences would be more interested in a prequel.

Except the "No, I am your father" reveal in Empire Strikes Back was an actual plot twist; there's many massive differences between a plot twist and just false advertising.

Thanks for the clarification about the DLC. I didn't really fully pay attention to the Three Houses DLC when it released, so I guess I mistakenly thought the second wave was the first wave (part of it might've been that I didn't get a Switch, let alone Three Houses, until a while after the game released).

 

2 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Nah, maddening and Jeritza were separate things that were added for free alongside the paid DLC content. The process of Three Houses DLC was actually very similar to this. Pass came out at release date for the modest price of 25 bucks, and the only thing in it initially was the one Byleth outfit with the cap. That's it. One outfit. Then they released some more outfits, and suportless Anna. It didn't become debatably worthwhile until Cindered Shadows came out.

If anything, I feel the reason we won't be seeing as much free content here is that the game hasn't been rushed out of the game, so they won't need to retroactively add the stuff they couldn't implement in time down the line. But that's just speculation.

I see.

So, in other words, the only substantial paid content before Cindered Shadows was Anna; when was Anna released?

 

4 minutes ago, Azz said:

Oh yeah TH had a lot of free stuff, however sans Cindered Shadows, I would argue most of the paid stuff was pretty shite since it was costumes, stat items, auxiliary battles and Anna a waste of a unit in TH. So tbh, despite the shittiness of pre-release day 1 DLC, I do think Engage is already providing more for its money's worth compared to 3H if we're ignoring free updates (which I'm hoping Engage has plenty of too).

I'd say the opposite, if only because for Three Houses, it indicates that the paid stuff was likely developed later and not something that could've been added to the base game before release. I do think both cases were pretty bad though (one reason I never got the DLC for Three Houses).

[DefyingFates]

4 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

If anything, I feel the reason we won't be seeing as much free content here is that the game hasn't been rushed out of the game, so they won't need to retroactively add the stuff they couldn't implement in time down the line. But that's just speculation.

You know, the Jeritza stuff definitely felt like "finishing the game after release", but if you contextualize the other free stuff in the same way it... actually makes a lot of sense.

3 minutes ago, Azz said:

Oh yeah TH had a lot of free stuff, however sans Cindered Shadows, I would argue most of the paid stuff was pretty shite since it was costumes, stat items, auxiliary battles and Anna a waste of a unit in TH.

Oh, absolutely! As Rubenio said earlier, Cindered Shadows was the only paid content that was actually worth the price tag and if it had been sold separately I think most fans would have only gotten that (not counting completionists or super die-hardcore fans, of course).

Rubenio also made a good point about 3H's free content likely being stuff that was meant to be included in the first place, but I'd really like to see some free stuff too.

...but of course one of the things I would have loved (wearing the Emblems' outfits yourself) has been locked to amiibo, because of course Nintendo keeps putting stuff on the disk that you can only unlock via buying some overpriced figurine. Now that is scumminess on the level of Ubisoft, EA and others and is something I hate people keep giving them a free pass for.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Honestly, the best way they could've avoided backlash would've been to actually make a prequel to Breath of the Wild; it's obvious from how the game was marketed that at least one person at both companies knew that audiences would be more interested in a prequel.

Except the "No, I am your father" reveal in Empire Strikes Back was an actual plot twist; there's many massive differences between a plot twist and just false advertising.

I mean, the time travel twist is the same thing. A twist derived from the "it's a prequel" statement. Just like how "No, I am your father" derives from the lie that was "He betrayed and killed your father".

The point it, both things were meant to be disclosed from the public until the reveal itself for dramatic purposes, hence any previous set-up involved misdirection.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for the clarification about the DLC. I didn't really fully pay attention to the Three Houses DLC when it released, so I guess I mistakenly thought the second wave was the first wave (part of it might've been that I didn't get a Switch, let alone Three Houses, until a while after the game released).

To be fair, it's not a big mistake to make, since Wave 1 was very paltry you'd be forgiven to think it was instead part of Wave 2 or so.

[Saint Rubenio]

15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see.

So, in other words, the only substantial paid content before Cindered Shadows was Anna; when was Anna released?

Third wave, same time as Jeritza. Though I'd argue Anna is not all that substantial. She came out with no supports, a terribly uninspired personal that only increased her luck and generally was a pretty underwhelming unit. All in all she felt pretty underdeveloped.

From what I can tell, Emblems being released with each wave makes Engage's DLC content prior to its campaign a bit more impactful than anything Houses had prior to Cindered Shadows. The drawback is that the price tag is slightly higher, at five bucks extra. In other words, it's like the difference between Allen and Lance. One's got slightly better speed, the other has slightly better strength, but ultimately they're pretty much the same thing. Only in this case, it hurts to see.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Saint Rubenio

[vanguard333]

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, the time travel twist is the same thing. A twist derived from the "it's a prequel" statement. Just like how "No, I am your father" derives from the lie that was "He betrayed and killed your father".

The point it, both things were meant to be disclosed from the public until the reveal itself for dramatic purposes, hence any previous set-up involved misdirection.

Except the time travel in Age of Calamity is not a twist; the game itself certainly doesn't treat it as a twist as it happens at the very beginning of the game. The only thing claiming that the game was a prequel to Breath of the Wild was the marketing.

In any case, I don't want to dwell on this (mainly because this isn't the topic for it); I just needed an example of how I don't blame developers for making a game that had anti-consumer business practices surrounding it while at the same time not giving the company any slack for those anti-consumer practices, and I was recently reminded of Age of Calamity's false advertising, so that's the example I used. Whether or not everyone agrees that it is an example of anti-consumer practices wasn't really the point.

 

14 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

You know, the Jeritza stuff definitely felt like "finishing the game after release", but if you contextualize the other free stuff in the same way it... actually makes a lot of sense.

...but of course one of the things I would have loved (wearing the Emblems' outfits yourself) has been locked to amiibo, because of course Nintendo keeps putting stuff on the disk that you can only unlock via buying some overpriced figurine. Now that is scumminess on the level of Ubisoft, EA and others and is something I hate people keep giving them a free pass for.

Yeah, I can agree about that. A lot of the free content definitely feels like stuff that they wanted to have included in the base game but couldn't finish on time; likely a result of the finished game having been twice as big as they originally thought it was going to be. Three Houses definitely feels like a game where there was rush as a result of overambition.

Yeah, most amiibo-exclusive content these days is really scummy. I'm surprised that the first time we saw any real pushback against this stuff was the Loftwing amiibo for Skyward Sword HD.

 

1 minute ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Third wave, same time as Jeritza. Though I'd argue Anna is not all that substantial. She came out with no supports, a terribly uninspired personal that only increased her luck and generally was a pretty underwhelming unit. All in all she felt pretty underdeveloped.

I see. Thanks. I just included her as substantial because we're considering emblems as substantial and it probably takes more time to build a playable character (even one with no supports) than an emblem.

[Saint Rubenio]

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. Thanks. I just included her as substantial because we're considering emblems as substantial and it probably takes more time to build a playable character (even one with no supports) than an emblem.

Yeah, I think I agree that Anna is comparable to the Emblems in terms of substance. Which is to say... Yeah it's the exact same thing. We're paying 30/25 bucks for the campaigns and a few tiny bonuses sprinkled on top, let's not kid ourselves here, haha.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Saint Rubenio

[DefyingFates]

19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Just like how "No, I am your father" derives from the lie that was "He betrayed and killed your father".

That part was also just George Lucas throwing the reveal in while writing Empire because he thought it'd be cool, so slightly different scenario there. Everything else checks out though!

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah, most amiibo-exclusive content these days is really scummy. I'm surprised that the first time we saw any real pushback against this stuff was the Loftwing amiibo for Skyward Sword HD.

And people still bought both of those in droves! If it was just a simple cosmetic it'd be one thing, but amiibo lock entire game mechanics behind paywalls in various games and no one bats an eye. The store seen in the trailer seems to be exclusive to amiibos too!

3 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Yeah, I think I agree that Anna is comparable to the Emblems in terms of substance. Which is to say... Yeah it's the exact same thing. We're paying 30/25 bucks for the campaigns and a few tiny bonuses sprinkled on top, let's not kid ourselves here, haha.

I'd say Emblems are far better since they're tangible items everyone can make use of (and outside of the easy grinding abilities Tiki and the 3H Lords seem genuinely powerful). Anna on the other hand was a subpar unit with no supports that'd encourage you to use her for either 😛

[Acacia Sgt]

I've never had much chance to buy amiibo... so gate-ing content behind them is certainly something of a bum to me.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[DefyingFates]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I've never had much chance to buy amiibo... so gate-ing content behind them is certainly something of a bum to me.

If you don't mind spending a few bucks, you can get a pack of RFID-chipped cards or stickers to download amiibo data to. My brother did that a while back and I have no shame admitting I tried some of his fake amiibos on BotW back in the day. As the saying goes: "it is always morally correct to pirate Nintendo games" 😛

Except maybe don't pirate the games themselves if you think they're worth the price tag.

Edited December 11, 2022 by DefyingFates

[vanguard333]

6 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

And people still bought both of those in droves! If it was just a simple cosmetic it'd be one thing, but amiibo lock entire game mechanics behind paywalls in various games and no one bats an eye. The store seen in the trailer seems to be exclusive to amiibos too!

I know. It is a real shame. Incidentally, I didn't buy that loftwing amiibo, but I also didn't buy Skyward Sword HD, and for reasons unrelated to the amiibo: I didn't like that there still wasn't any left-handed options for the game despite Link himself being left-handed in every Zelda game except Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild. At the time of the loftwing amiibo's announcement, I was joking that the next announcement would be a $50 amiibo that adds in a left-handed mode, with the statue on the amiibo being made from the customer's left hand.

 

14 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

I'd say Emblems are far better since they're tangible items everyone can make use of (and outside of the easy grinding abilities Tiki and the 3H Lords seem genuinely powerful). Anna on the other hand was a subpar unit with no supports that'd encourage you to use her for either 😛

Rubenio wasn't talking about quality when he said "substance", but the amount of time and effort the dev team would've had to put into making them.

[DefyingFates]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I was joking that the next announcement would be a $50 amiibo that adds in a left-handed mode, with the statue on the amiibo being made from the customer's left hand.

I mean, I wouldn't put it past them at this point. Except the "customer's left hand" part. Probably.

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Rubenio wasn't talking about quality when he said "substance", but the amount of time and effort the dev team would've had to put into making them.

I don't know about that honestly. Anna had no supports, so was pretty much just a generic unit you could use. I think she had some new Monastery dialogue too, but each Emblem seems set to have unique mechanics, skills and flashy animations and a paralogue each (Anna also had the latter, to be fair). While both may have required the same time and effort, the Emblems feel like they had more care put into them too. And if they also get the same supports that the main Emblems seem to have, then they completely eclipse Anna.

And to be perfectly honest, that's exactly what I want (for the Emblems to be really fleshed out, but not specifically to eclipse Anna). For example, I wonder if the 3H Lords (and Eirika and Ephraim) will have separate supports or they'll all share them with each other. Or even share the same allotment of supports, if that makes sense, i.e. if each Emblem Ring/ Bracelet has X supports or if each Emblem has X supports each.

[lenticular]

2 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

To be honest, I'm usually the same with this sort of thing. I've come to be a bit more lax on stuff like this where only the first batch of DLC is revealed ahead of time though. It's still anti-consumer, but I think it's far better than what other companies do like Ubisoft, that market their entire season pass before the game even releases (and even leaves tons of DLC on disk).

I'm the other way around. I think that if you're expected to pay up-front for an expansion pass, you at least deserve to know what's in it, since that allows you to make a vaguely informed decision about whether you want to buy it. Keeping everything secret means that a lot of people are going to imagine the DLC in the best possible light, buy it based on optimism, and then be disappointed when it doesn't deliver. Like, for the emblems, a lot of people are going to be thinking about all of their favourite characters who could be there. I'd love to daydream about getting (for instnce) L'Arachel, Elincia and Tibarn. Those are some of my favourite characters. But it could equally well have Camilla, Xander, Tharja, and Kris. Who are... let's say that they're not my favourite characters. And there's really no way for me (or anyone) to know whether the DLC as a whole will be worth it without knowing what's actually going to be in it. And yet they're expecting people to buy it anyway because of FOMO, instant gratification, and not wanting to be left out of The Discourse.

(None of which should in any way be taken as an endorsement or defense of Ubisoft, who are a wretched company who I refuse to do business with.)

(And the worst of the worst, in this respect, are companies who say exactly what they're going to do in great detail, and then go back on their word and deliver something else, which is invariably considerably naffer.)

And on the subject of Nintendo specifically, they've always been fairly hostile towards their customers. The big legal battle that they had with Galoob and Codemasters over the Game Genie was over 30 years ago now, for instance. This is very much not a new thing. They might be getting somewhat worse or somewhat more brazen in recent years, but they've never been anything approaching good.

[DefyingFates]

2 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I'm the other way around. I think that if you're expected to pay up-front for an expansion pass, you at least deserve to know what's in it, since that allows you to make a vaguely informed decision about whether you want to buy it. Keeping everything secret means that a lot of people are going to imagine the DLC in the best possible light, buy it based on optimism, and then be disappointed when it doesn't deliver. Like, for the emblems, a lot of people are going to be thinking about all of their favourite characters who could be there. I'd love to daydream about getting (for instnce) L'Arachel, Elincia and Tibarn. Those are some of my favourite characters. But it could equally well have Camilla, Xander, Tharja, and Kris. Who are... let's say that they're not my favourite characters. And there's really no way for me (or anyone) to know whether the DLC as a whole will be worth it without knowing what's actually going to be in it. And yet they're expecting people to buy it anyway because of FOMO, instant gratification, and not wanting to be left out of The Discourse.

Oh, I should have been clearer! I'm all for transparency - in fact that's part of the reason I refuse to buy the Pass. I just take an offense to when we're shown trailers or gameplay in so much detail that it's obvious that it's either been finished or almost finished even though it's being sold separately.

For example, I'd have a much more positive opinion of this Season Pass if they were more open about what it would include, even if they wanted to avoid spoilers. A clear number of Bracelets to expect for example, what else Wave 2 has, how long the story content in Wave 4 is planned to be, stuff like that. Well, that last one may be too specific a request if they really haven't been working on it in earnest already, but I hope that my point as a whole makes more sense.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I don't really understand why anyone would buy a game's DLC before the game is even out. DLC really only makes sense as a purchase once you've figured out you enjoy a game and want (a) to experience more of it and (b) want to support the game financially more.

The way I look at it is... okay, I'm gonna buy Fire Emblem Engage, because Intsys's good track record with this series means I expect to like it (I straight-up enjoyed every non-remake FE that has seen international release). I'm taking a bit of a risk because there's a chance I don't like the game, but so it goes. If I end up enjoying the game, then and only then will I consider spending more money on it still. Intsys/Nintendo get some of my money upfront because I like their past work; they're not gonna get more unless I like this particular work, and also like the new content they're selling for it.

Also absolutely agree with lenticular that under normal circumstances, buying DLC before you know what's even in it is pretty strange. I kinda get it if there's a package deal and you have both a rough idea of what it will provide (like Mario Kart 8), but otherwise, would agree that it's a practice I'd rather not support.

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I mean, I wouldn't put it past them at this point. Except the "customer's left hand" part. Probably.

Yeah, I wouldn't put it past them either. Maybe not the "customer's left hand" part, but only because Nintendo Switch Sports can be played left-handed, and even then, as far as I know, it is the only motion-control-heavy game on the Switch that can be played left-handed.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I wonder if Maddening Mode will also be a post-launch DLC again. That was the thing that salvaged Three Houses for me. Small wonder THAT wasn't paid content now that I think about it. The only other free thing was Jeritza - and I had already finished that route by the time he was added to the game, so I have no experience using him. What I'm getting at is, if they add new characters and classes months after the game comes out, how can you really say you'll be ready to jump back for a whole new playthrough in three, six, nine, or twelve months after you beat the game the first time? If Engage has no difficult content, that'd be a serious blow to replayability too.

Fire Emblem is the first and most eager Nintendo franchise to experiment with paid DLC, so the announcement shouldn't shock us by that point. But the advertisement trailer a full 40 days before the game is out is a new, tasteless record for the series. And as Nintendo's only trailer offered to the Game Awards, no less. The only way they could make the game look worse is if they announced the gacha mechanics in the same trailer. 

[Vexal]

17 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I wonder if Maddening Mode will also be a post-launch DLC again. That was the thing that salvaged Three Houses for me. Small wonder THAT wasn't paid content now that I think about it.

I...didn't like Maddening mode, personally; felt too min-maxy when I did try it and from what I read if you don't use most of your weeks on the Monastary (which was my least liked aspect of the game) you'd fall behind very quickly, at least on fresh save files...which they also intended you to do since you got a special title screen for doing so.

If they do add another difficulty via DLC (which I suspect to be part of the Wave 3 update due to how little has been told about wave 3) I hope that 1) the base game has 3 difficulty modes to begin with and that 2) the update's difficulty isn't such a massive leap from the difficulty right before it that it feels like jumping off a cliff

Edited December 12, 2022 by Vexal

[Crubat]

12 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

this just screams, "This is all stuff that was originally going to be in the main game, but we decided to remove it from the base game so that we can charge extra for it, as we know you will pay for it."

Sorry, I understand all the hate about announcing DLC before the game is released (which is pattern since awakening btw) and it *is* scummy they definitely could've waited till after release, but the claim that this was originally in the game but was cut to release as DLC is way different than that. You have to keep in mind that the game has been done for at the LATEST earlier this year, and was originally planned as a 2020 release. All this time, while waiting for nintendo to finally release the game, they probably had been working on the DLC and I'm willing to bet it's probably done now or at least close to. Now you can argue that if it's done, why not add it to the game? There are probably multiple reasons such as game cartridges have been done for awhile or the base game has already been sent to be turned into game cartridges, can't really add the DLC if they've already paid for making the cartridges. I think engage what was shown so far seems to be worth the price so I don't see what's so bad about DLC when the game already seemingly has a lot of content lol

I will say I don't like how there are waves of DLC but it's probably a way to make the game last longer ig. Again, I'm not defending them cause I think it's okay to make DLC for a game that hasn't been released yet but engage itself has been done for a long time now, it's reasonable for the devs to work on DLC even if engage hasn't been released yet

[CelestialContrail]

33 minutes ago, Crubat said:

Sorry, I understand all the hate about announcing DLC before the game is released (which is pattern since awakening btw) and it *is* scummy they definitely could've waited till after release, but the claim that this was originally in the game but was cut to release as DLC is way different than that. You have to keep in mind that the game has been done for at the LATEST earlier this year, and was originally planned as a 2020 release. All this time, while waiting for nintendo to finally release the game, they probably had been working on the DLC and I'm willing to bet it's probably done now or at least close to. Now you can argue that if it's done, why not add it to the game? There are probably multiple reasons such as game cartridges have been done for awhile or the base game has already been sent to be turned into game cartridges, can't really add the DLC if they've already paid for making the cartridges. I think engage what was shown so far seems to be worth the price so I don't see what's so bad about DLC when the game already seemingly has a lot of content lol

I will say I don't like how there are waves of DLC but it's probably a way to make the game last longer ig. Again, I'm not defending them cause I think it's okay to make DLC for a game that hasn't been released yet but engage itself has been done for a long time now, it's reasonable for the devs to work on DLC even if engage hasn't been released yet

I agree that it's likely that, because of Engage's delayed release, all of the waves of DLC are done or close to it at this point. Engage being delayed to avoid stepping on Three Hopes' toes doesn't mean that IntSys would alter their planned development schedule that much - they might've taken a little more time for quality assurance and polish than they had originally planned, but unless they thought it would increase sales enough to be worth the added development cost, it wouldn't make business sense for them to use the extra time until Engage releases to add more content and features to the game than they had originally planned. Also, extending Engage's development time would delay whatever game they were planning to make next, which I doubt they would find desirable.

I also agree that Engage seems like it will have plenty of content out of the box without any DLC. In particular, the selection of the 12 Emblems that will be in the base game seems to have been carefully considered (roughly 1 representative per game, even gender balance, diversity in weapons and abilities) so I doubt that they ever planned to have more than those as part of it. (I'm honestly side eyeing the Silver Card being DLC more than the extra Emblems.)

Edited December 12, 2022 by CelestialContrail

[Crubat]

9 minutes ago, CelestialContrail said:

(I'm honestly side eyeing the Silver Card being DLC more than the extra Emblems.)

I get that, but I think silver card is their way of implementing the money dlc in the game like how all DLC awakening and onwards had a map for money. Engage seems to be taking a different approach with all of that, making the EXP map into an emblem and the star shards from echoes into tiki. Silver card is similarly a different way of providing money to the player, and is honestly more balanced than giving players an infinite amount of money. Thinking of it like that made me not as annoyed by it, since not every FE game had a silver card so it isn't really a series staple.

[tipperthescales]

For the record, the Silver Card is on the same map as unlocking Tiki is (as per the DLC page description), so I suppose you could just forego grabbing it (I assume the map can be replayed?).

[DefyingFates]

1 hour ago, Crubat said:

You have to keep in mind that the game has been done for at the LATEST earlier this year, and was originally planned as a 2020 release. All this time, while waiting for nintendo to finally release the game, they probably had been working on the DLC and I'm willing to bet it's probably done now or at least close to.

Yeah, this is another point that is something to think about, as much as I don't want to. It's possible that Engage was locked up for a year and the staff decided to work on DLC instead of sitting on their hands until things went back to normal pandemic and scheduling-wise. From a business perspective it does make some sense that the devs would want separate pay for working on extra content beyond what was expected to be in the product they'd expected to have shipped already, so adding a separate price tag also makes sense if the new stuff is as meaty as Nintendo wants us to believe. Worth keeping an eye on the "if" there, though.

But that doesn't change the skeeviness of announcing the DLC so far in advance even if it's becoming common for IS/ Nintendo now, nor does it justify making this FE's sole contribution to TGA of all things. I know 3H would have attracted a lot of attention, but they could at the very least have teased the DLC at the very end and given us another "Engaging with Emblems" trailer for the remaining Emblems... though much less technically-minded to appeal to the mass audience, obviously. Maybe just a demo reel showing all the cool new skills and Engage Attacks they provide for newcomers to marvel at and us to dissect.