More effectively integrating the New Mystery additional characters into the story

[Jotari]

So I, and I'm sure many others, think that New Mystery has a problem with its cast just showing up out of the blue to help Marth. This isn't illogical, as it's a sequel most of these characters know Marth already and want to help him. But they decided to put every single playable character from Archanea that doesn't die in the story into this game (and even one that does originally die! Uh, Gotoh is the exception for some reason). This massively expanded the cast far beyond it's original designs and, aside from the new assassin plot for new characters Kris and Katarina, few if any of the additional characters feel like much effort was put in to integrate them. I've only played Old Mystery once and I can easily remember when and under what circumstances every character from that game joins. For New Mystery I really have no idea when Marth picks up the likes of Athena and Malice in his quest. I'm more likely to remember when someone showed up based on how egregious is was rather than anything else. I also think there's a stark difference between the characters originally designed for the game and the ones added for the remake. Catria and Linde just show up to help Marth like all the new characters, but they both bring information and news with them, not just their weapons and stats. Them showing up to help Marth has relevance, it's not just "Hey, I'm here, let's party."

So, let's spit ball some ideas as to how these characters could have been better utilized. For a refresher, here's the list of existing characters not originally intended to be in Mystery of the Emblem.

*Cord

*Bord

*Wrys

*Barst

*Frey

*Norne

*Caesar

*Radd

*Roger

*Etzel

*Dice

*Malice

*Horace

*Jake

*Darros

*Roberto

*Belf

*Reiden

*Beck

*Athena

*Dolph

*Macellan

*Tomas

*Frost

*Ymir

*Nagi

 

The one that jumps out to me the most is Horace. He just shows up under attack from Legion in the middle of the desert for no reason. I think the obvious solution for him would be to make him an enemy. He's an Archanean general and Archanea is the enemy, let him fight for Hardin before being convinced over to your side. This could even serve as further character development for him, as he's the character that has the baggage of being labelled a traitor in the previous war, and Marth would be asking him to be a traitor again.

One pair of characters I think they actually had a good idea for were Caesar and Radd. Like my suggestion for Horace, they are enemies who fight Marth. And that makes sense, they're mercenaries. Only they're just there in a paralogue with no build up. They don't even speak to Marth until their recruitment post chapter. Why not show them getting hired by the assassins? These characters don't need to be locked to a single scene.

By far the characters most needing integration are the BS Chronicles characters. Marth doesn't know who these people are, and they don't know who he is. And in the case of the Sable Knights, they were outright enemies in the past (Frost too, might have been Marth's enemy, hard to tell what he might have done after his fight with Ruben as Macedon was still enemies of Aurelis and Altea). The Sable Knights just show up in Anri's Way wanting to join Marth because...honestly I don't know, are they trying to rescue Nyna again due to loyalty to Camus? Frost shows up at the mountain crossroads chapter wanting to just generally help while Dice and Malice apparently appear in the Arlen chapter, which I don't remember at all. What are they doing in Khadein of all places and what interest do they have in Marth? Do you pay them like Hugh?  Not only are these characters strangers to Marth, but they're likely to be strangers to the player too, since Archanea Saga is almost certainly the least played game in the series.

Why not let the Sable Knights know Camus and show up, when you're rescuing the Grustian royals. That's where their loyalty aught to be. Of course, we need to take class balance into account, I can see why they shoved so many characters into Anri's way as there's a dearth of characters joining at that point in the original game. But it's just so random for these people Marth has never met to just appear out of nowhere at a lake of molten lava. If you just had them appear at Grust in the early game for a few cutscenes, maybe they know who Camus is, maybe they don't, but just have them show up, try to protect the royals and then get seperated or something, then their appearance later wouldn't be so random. Frost likewise could have been wrapped up in the Madeconian rebellion in some way, appearing in a few cutscenes and then reappearing later.

I think the inital suggestion people are going to go to here would be to just not bother and cut half of these characters out of the game as it's just too big a roster to integrate. But I don't think that's necessarily true. Radiant Dawn has an almost equal sized roster and did a much better job integrating its minor characters from a previous title. It had the advantage of swapping around to different armies, but it still did stuff to make the characters important. Imagine if Tormod just showed up in part 4 without having been in Part 1. Or if Bastian didn't come with Renning and just showed up to help because he had been lost before then. The characters just need to appear in a few more places and talk to a few more people to feel like they are meant to be there and didn't just spontaneously come into existence because their level and class are appropriate to current join time.

[KMT4ever]

I'm going to go through every character since I've got time to kill. Honestly I don't think a lot of them need more than one extended scene, but for the sake of the thought exercise...

• Cord: He arrives in an extremely forested map, so perhaps he was working there as a woodcutter when the Macedonian rebellion broke out. He gets accosted by a soldier who gets distracted when Marth arrives before being dispatched. After the chapter he could fill Marth in on the brewing unrest in Macedon and allude to what we learn from Michalis's conversation with Rucke in the next chapter regarding Hardin's involvement.
• Bord: I suppose he could give more evidence that something's wrong with Archanea as a whole instead of just Lang, but I can't think of anything else that wouldn't be blatantly duplicating Cord.
• Wrys: He appears as the target of the first optional assassin mission, so he could play a part in the discussion regarding this new threat. Have the group conclude that someone is hunting their old comrades based on his testimony (maybe the assassins said too much?) rather than Jagen picking up rumors beforehand. If the chapter wasn't unlocked, have the army find him dying and learn what happened from his last words.
• Barst: His Shadow Dragon ending involved him joining the Archanean army before deserting to become a pirate, so he could have been captured and conscripted under penalty of death for both crimes. Play up a desire for vengeance.
• Frey: Have him describe the escape from Altea Castle more. Harken back to Shadow Dragon by having him volunteer to be the distraction so everyone else could escape only for Cain to do it instead, reminding him that he nearly died the first time he did that. That also explains why Cain shows up on his own two chapters later.
• Norne: I would have had her show up in the Prologue instead of Gordin to better represent the rather slapdash collection of helpers you get. As for the main story, given she's from a small village maybe she could bring up the Archanea-caused devastation she and Frey saw along the way to Grust.
• Caesar and Radd: Have them hired specifically because they fought with Marth in the previous war and know his tactics. After the chapter they initially decline to join Marth out of shame, after which the assassins try to kill them only to be driven off by the Altean army. As it turns out their original declining was a trick to lure the assassins out of hiding, at which point they join normally.
• Roger: He joined Archanea because they were the strongest, but perhaps Caeda could also play on his sense of Grustian patriotism. At least that would give him more character than being a love-struck idiot.
• Etzel: Have him join at the beginning of the chapter rather than be recruited as an enemy. He could fill Marth in on what Arlen's doing and explain that while a lot of Khadein's mages bought into Archanea's lies, some don't really want to fight.
• Dice and Malice: Honestly, they're mercenaries looking for work. There's not much else that needs to be explained. Maybe they were trying to get signed on with Khadein but didn't like the rate on offer. Or they could be recruited with gold during the chapter itself like Beowulf, Hugh, etc. Marth's desperate enough for help that he accepts their offer.
• Horace: I agree that his appearance is extremely out of place and understated considering who he is. However, I think having him start as an enemy runs the risk of copying another character. If he reluctantly joins out of ever-dwindling loyalty before deciding he's had enough he's copying Jeorge. If he goes full "Loyalty to Archanea over common decency" before being shown sense he's copying Astram. I would have had him refuse to help Hardin right from the beginning and get imprisoned for it before escaping and trying to join up with Marth before getting attacked by Legion. He already turned traitor once to protect innocents, what's one more time? He'll just have to make amends by setting Archanea right again. Besides, he knows from personal experience that Princess Nyna would understand.
• Jake: Does he really need a good explanation? He's Anna's boyfriend, she has a shop right there, that's all the reason he needs.
• Darros: Maybe an expeditionary force from Aurelis catches up to Marth around the Flame Barrel and Darros is working with them as a mercenary. It would at least make more sense than him ending up with a bunch of dragon-using barbarians in the middle of nowhere, as well as give Aurelis a little more presence in the story.
• Sable Knights: They could have shown up at the very beginning as part of Lorenz's rebellion, helping Ogma escort Yuliya and Jubelo before parting ways at the beginning of his recruitment chapter in order to go continue the fight against Archanea on their own, only for the pirates to show up once they depart and leave Ogma and the children vulnerable. Then there'd be the amusing irony of them and Camus just missing each other. Their appearance at the Ice Temple could be explained as them having followed the aforementioned Aurelian force north in hopes of meeting up with Marth rather than randomly being out in a frozen wasteland.
• Beck: I have no idea. Maybe he comes along with Jake? The two appear to be acquainted with one another already, so it wouldn't be a stretch to have them traveling together.
• Athena: Have her trying to get home via boat from the northern coast only to get caught by the assassins. Afterwards emphasize her putting that plan on hold in order to help Marth out.
• Dolph: He could tell Marth about the situation with Abel and Est, because otherwise I don't think there's actually any point where he finds out directly.
• Macellan: He could warn about the ambush inside the Altean throne room rather than breaking immersion to show Willow talking to his soldiers about it.
• Tomas: He expresses sympathy for the people of Gra, so maybe show him as part of the local Archanean garrison before deserting out of disgust. He could also make an earlier appearance as part of Jeorge's sniper unit during the liberation of Grust.
• Frost: Have him working at Lena and Julian's monastery and staying behind to watch over it while Julian goes off to find Lena. He eventually joins the army after leaving it in the care of someone else, unable to keep sitting on the sidelines while both Lena and Maria are missing.
• Ymir: We're never actually shown what happens to Grust after Lang is killed and Marth and co. retreat north. Have Archanea reoccupy the country offscreen only for even more resistance to spring up, with Ymir playing a major role in keeping his local region free. When he appears in the Wyvern Dale it's because Archanea finally surrendered and he's free to go help Marth put an end to everything.
• Nagi: With how mysterious she is I'm not sure what could be done with her other than maybe giving her a few conversations with Gotoh regarding Medeus.

[Jotari]

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

I'm going to go through every character since I've got time to kill. Honestly I don't think a lot of them need more than one extended scene, but for the sake of the thought exercise...

• Cord: He arrives in an extremely forested map, so perhaps he was working there as a woodcutter when the Macedonian rebellion broke out. He gets accosted by a soldier who gets distracted when Marth arrives before being dispatched. After the chapter he could fill Marth in on the brewing unrest in Macedon and allude to what we learn from Michalis's conversation with Rucke in the next chapter regarding Hardin's involvement.

Oh wow. Yes, this exactly this. Just small little things but they do a whole lot. This precisely what I'm talking about. We don't need huge changes, though I don't think they should have been afraid of making huge changes either (I think a small garrison of Archaneans other than the assassins pursuing Marth into the wilderness could have done a lot for getting more characters out there. If the Sable Trio and Beck can manage to find Marth up in the mountains then why can't Hardin?)

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Wrys: He appears as the target of the first optional assassin mission, so he could play a part in the discussion regarding this new threat. Have the group conclude that someone is hunting their old comrades based on his testimony (maybe the assassins said too much?) rather than Jagen picking up rumors beforehand. If the chapter wasn't unlocked, have the army find him dying and learn what happened from his last words.

I'm not going to say I like all of these ideas, because it would be redundant, so take it as a given that I like a lot of these ideas if I have nothing specific to say. A scene with Wrys dying if you somehow fail to get the paralogue would definitely be impactful.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Barst: His Shadow Dragon ending involved him joining the Archanean army before deserting to become a pirate, so he could have been captured and conscripted under penalty of death for both crimes. Play up a desire for vengeance.

Honestly, I wouldn't be against us just class changing him into a pirate and having him show up in some map with a coast as one of the maurading enemies. I think it's Pirates you fight when you meet Zeke, Ogma and the Twins.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Roger: He joined Archanea because they were the strongest, but perhaps Caeda could also play on his sense of Grustian patriotism. At least that would give him more character than being a love-struck idiot.

Roger's problem in the game as is is that it's just a complete rehash of his joining in Shadow Dragon. He definitely has a memorable recruitment convo in Shadow Dragon, but I think few if any care about his recruitment convo in New Mystery. So I'd either err on leaning into it even more, like Oliver, or just going in a completely different take on him to give him more facets as a character.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Etzel: Have him join at the beginning of the chapter rather than be recruited as an enemy. He could fill Marth in on what Arlen's doing and explain that while a lot of Khadein's mages bought into Archanea's lies, some don't really want to fight.

Working off this, we could also have him show up at the end of the bridge chapter to assist Marth in escaping Hardin and escort him to Khadein.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Dice and Malice: Honestly, they're mercenaries looking for work. There's not much else that needs to be explained. Maybe they were trying to get signed on with Khadein but didn't like the rate on offer. Or they could be recruited with gold during the chapter itself like Beowulf, Hugh, etc. Marth's desperate enough for help that he accepts their offer.

Again I'm kind of flumixed why they're even at Khadein. Maybe, if we're making a thing out of the mercenaries, they could have been wrapped up with Caesar and Radd as part of the same mercenary group.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Horace: I agree that his appearance is extremely out of place and understated considering who he is. However, I think having him start as an enemy runs the risk of copying another character. If he reluctantly joins out of ever-dwindling loyalty before deciding he's had enough he's copying Jeorge. If he goes full "Loyalty to Archanea over common decency" before being shown sense he's copying Astram. I would have had him refuse to help Hardin right from the beginning and get imprisoned for it before escaping and trying to join up with Marth before getting attacked by Legion. He already turned traitor once to protect innocents, what's one more time? He'll just have to make amends by setting Archanea right again. Besides, he knows from personal experience that Princess Nyna would understand.

I'll see you're opinion on them later, but we actually have a character ending for Dolph or Macellan that says they objected to the new emperor in Shadow Dragon that this is reminding me of. They could be grouped together, but then we run into issues of all our armoured units coming together.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Darros: Maybe an expeditionary force from Aurelis catches up to Marth around the Flame Barrel and Darros is working with them as a mercenary. It would at least make more sense than him ending up with a bunch of dragon-using barbarians in the middle of nowhere, as well as give Aurelis a little more presence in the story.

We're in two minds as I suggested the same earlier, though not with Darros specifically in mind. I could also see Darros joining early, he's a pretty early game unit in Shadow Dragon. Ymir could be moved from the end game to this join time, though in the original role of inexplicably being there, as Ymir wouldn't work for this mercenary idea. I feel Darros at the very least should be recruited vaguely near the sea.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Ymir: We're never actually shown what happens to Grust after Lang is killed and Marth and co. retreat north. Have Archanea reoccupy the country offscreen only for even more resistance to spring up, with Ymir playing a major role in keeping his local region free. When he appears in the Wyvern Dale it's because Archanea finally surrendered and he's free to go help Marth put an end to everything.

I feel like that would run into issues with the Sable order, who would probably rather involve themself with that uprising than Marth.

51 minutes ago, KMT4ever said:

• Nagi: With how mysterious she is I'm not sure what could be done with her other than maybe giving her a few conversations with Gotoh regarding Medeus.

Yeah, Nagi's the one where you either need to go big or go home. She's so weird and abstractly connected to the lore, she's actually fine as just a mystery. On the other hand, if willing to make big changes, she could be used to give great insight into the history, Naga and nature of divine dragons.

[Jotari]

Playing through New Mystery now, so I think I'll toss a few ideas here. First, Barst, Cord and Bord seem really out of place. They travel all the way from Talys just to join Marth's army? What? That's a hell of a lot of effort. I think they should have been there because of Ogma, not Marth. Their recruitment can still be staggered, but tie them to their actual boss and not Marth whom they travel across the entire continent for to join in a conflict that they have no context of (Marth doesn't even have context at the start), and one of them has a defining personality trait of being a pacifist!

[X-Naut]

I've thought about this myself and here's what I would do:

First off... everyone is not here. Cord, Bord, Caesar, Radd, Beck, Dolph, Macellan and Tomas are out. They at least appeared in Shadow Dragon and I struggle to find a place where they would make a meaningful addition. I can see Dolph, Macellan and Tomas all cameoing at some point around the third arc, though, and maybe a few others if you get creative. Now, for the characters who do make it in...

• Wrys is another character who I'd be okay with cutting, but I'd honestly keep his join situation as is. The only difference is that Frost also appears as a temporary or NPC unit in Chapter 3x, and the mission is to escort them to safety instead of seizing. He'd still join later in the game, probably the same time as before, but saving his life earlier gives better context for joining you.
• Barst is joining with Ogma's crew, there's no excuse when he was right outside Olbern Keep and that corner of Chapter 4 is a shitshow.
• I have no objections to Frey and Norne joining when they do, aside from joining further forward so that Norne isn't caught so easily. I like having someone else around to confirm that others besides Caeda escaped. I do like KMT's idea of having Norne show up in the prologue too, it'd make her thing with Kris less out of nowhere.
• Dice and Malice now fill Radd and Caesar's roles and form a much more threatening duo. They don't join in Chapter 6x though; instead, they retreat and show up again in 10x, with the prerequisite now being to spare them earlier. Here they show up under your control from the start, more in a bit.
• Roger can stay where he is so that we have another armor between Draug and Sheena, and I actually like his motivation for joining. The catch is that you now have two new recruitment options: Marisha who can charm him to try and one-up Caeda (if only you knew...), and Yuliya who rips him a new one for bending the knee to their kingdom's tormentor.
• Etzel is now relegated to Chapter 10x, investigating mysterious activity in the basements rather than fighting Altea. He joins cornered with Dice and Malice, and as for Horace... more on him later.
• Jake can stay where he is. He's clearly supposed to demarcate the first Secret Shop in no man's land. Maybe let other women recruit him with a different conversational flavor? (probably annoyance)
• I'm not touching Belf, Leiden and Roberto so that stretch of game still has recruitments, the only change I'd make is giving them an appearance after killing Lang to thank Marth for his services. They could also play a role in helping Marth get across Chiasmir Bridge by harassing Astram's group with guerilla attacks. Something to make the in and out of Chapter 8 less of an ass pull. Speaking of Chapter 8...
• I won't object to leaving Darros as a midgame recruitment, but I have a much better idea: he drives the spare boat Cain brought to get Marth away from Hardin, then resurfaces in Chapter 15 in place of Dolph.
• I'll leave Athena in her paralogue, with the only difference being it's 12x instead of 13x. It gives better continuity between 13 and 14, although either way she's going to need help with her rejoin performance.
• Now, for the one I skipped: Horace becomes the boss of Chapter 18. He can be recruited by talking with Linde, Jeorge or Astram; in other words, another Archanean character. It could be an after-combat thing where you defeat but spare him, but you need to strike up a talk first.
• Lastly, Ymir and Nagi are unchanged. The former can be mentioned as watching Grust in the Sable knights' absence, while the latter is hard to place anywhere else. If you want to be more faithful to FE3 and leave Michalis dead then endgame needs somebody to pick up the slack.

I could bounce around a few other alt recruitment ideas for characters not listed here, but this is exhaustive enough.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

[Frost would] still join later in the game, probably the same time as before, but saving his life earlier gives better context for joining you.

This is exactly the issue with the "just show up characters". We've had "just show up" characters in the past and it's fine. But it feels egregious in New Mystery because there are so many characters and the show up with little rhyme or reason. As I said in the OP, the BS Characters in particular needed the most focus here as they have no personal connection to Marth, and it's weird no attempt was made to give it to them, especially when 4/6 of them are from Grust and Macedon, the regions you send the first third of the game in.

9 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

•  to Frey and Norne joining when they do, aside from joining further forward so that Norne isn't caught so easily. I like having someone else around to confirm that others besides Caeda escaped. I do like KMT's idea of having Norne show up in the prologue too, it'd make her thing with Kris less out of nowhere.

Norne definitely works well as a character if she's integrated into prologue, but now that I'm playing through the prologue I realize that would mean you get three archers...which...idk is was going to say is to much, but maybe that's better actually? Lunatic+ has a huge focus on attacking enemies who can't counter and there are no javelins or hand axes in the prologue, so an extra archer could actually be really useful.

9 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

 

• Dice and Malice now fill Radd and Caesar's roles and form a much more threatening duo. They don't join in Chapter 6x though; instead, they retreat and show up again in 10x, with the prerequisite now being to spare them earlier. Here they show up under your control from the start, more in a bit.

Aside from it meaning getting three swordies at once, I see no reason not to team up all the mercenaries. I rather like Radd and Caesar since integrating them into my fan game. Though personal feelings aside, Dice and Malice are more necessary characters to have in the game, as it's actually pretty cool they integrated the BS stuff.

9 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

• Roger can stay where he is so that we have another armor between Draug and Sheena, and I actually like his motivation for joining. The catch is that you now have two new recruitment options: Marisha who can charm him to try and one-up Caeda (if only you knew...), and Yuliya who rips him a new one for bending the knee to their kingdom's tormentor.

Oh, I like Yuliya being utilized that way in particular. For how much focus the Grust royals get in the early part of the game they just vanish completely when they join. Which, yeah, goes for everyone in these old games, but it feels particularly bad for them.

9 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

•  

 

[X-Naut]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

This is exactly the issue with the "just show up characters". We've had "just show up" characters in the past and it's fine. But it feels egregious in New Mystery because there are so many characters and the show up with little rhyme or reason. As I said in the OP, the BS Characters in particular needed the most focus here as they have no personal connection to Marth, and it's weird no attempt was made to give it to them, especially when 4/6 of them are from Grust and Macedon, the regions you send the first third of the game in.

Norne definitely works well as a character if she's integrated into prologue, but now that I'm playing through the prologue I realize that would mean you get three archers...which...idk is was going to say is to much, but maybe that's better actually? Lunatic+ has a huge focus on attacking enemies who can't counter and there are no javelins or hand axes in the prologue, so an extra archer could actually be really useful.

Aside from it meaning getting three swordies at once, I see no reason not to team up all the mercenaries. I rather like Radd and Caesar since integrating them into my fan game. Though personal feelings aside, Dice and Malice are more necessary characters to have in the game, as it's actually pretty cool they integrated the BS stuff.

Oh I agree that the BSFE characters need it most, them and the gaiden gang. OG Book 1 characters at least have the chance to be fleshed out in a hypothetical re-revisit, but these characters borderline don't exist without their New Mystery inclusion. That said, this game already has a bloated cast, which is part of why I opted to cut a few OGs and made some characters' recruitments a two-parter.

On Norne, there's the option of kicking Gordin back if you want her to take his place entirely. Jeorge calls him to Archanea and he either returns in Chapter 5 to warn you about his teacher's intentions, or alongside Linde after getting roped into being her escort. Neither's a long delay but it avoids Chapter 1 archer oversaturation, keys you into the Jeorge recruitment and is an opportunity to strengthen him as a unit.

Edited September 30, 2023 by X-Naut

[Jotari]

On 9/30/2023 at 9:41 AM, X-Naut said:

Oh I agree that the BSFE characters need it most, them and the gaiden gang. OG Book 1 characters at least have the chance to be fleshed out in a hypothetical re-revisit, but these characters borderline don't exist without their New Mystery inclusion. That said, this game already has a bloated cast, which is part of why I opted to cut a few OGs and made some characters' recruitments a two-parter.

On Norne, there's the option of kicking Gordin back if you want her to take his place entirely. Jeorge calls him to Archanea and he either returns in Chapter 5 to warn you about his teacher's intentions, or alongside Linde after getting roped into being her escort. Neither's a long delay but it avoids Chapter 1 archer oversaturation, keys you into the Jeorge recruitment and is an opportunity to strengthen him as a unit.

That would mean deviating from the standard recruitment of Old Mystery...but I wouldn't be entirely opposed to that. Having him appear around the Jeorge time would certainly help make that recruitment more obvious (I actually missed it on my Old Mystery playthrough even though I had already played and recruited him in New Mystery, because I'd assumed it wasn't in the original and like the Wolf Guard they were just meant to die).

Edited October 3, 2023 by Jotari

[Jotari]

No wonder I don't remember the Malice and Dice recruitment. They aren't involved in the Khadein chapter at all. It's pure "show up out of nowhere". Really weird they gave the assassination subplot to Radd and Caesar and not Dice and Malice. We get this weird situation where Marth's former mercenary friends try to kill him while the other mercenary pair who don't know him seem him out (on the other side of a freaking desert) to insist he hire them. Just sort of backwards. What's even weirder is that you immediately go into a Gaiden chapter after that where they could have been utilized but instead it's just Horace.