So...let's talk tiers.

[dondon151]

Where can I find FE7 HHM enemy stat averages? I'd like to know who actually is doubling when Geitz joins, aside from the obvious Guy, Raven, Lyn, and PKs with no durability.

Also, Mekkah listed Kent's level as 20/1 in chapter 24, which might make sense, but on my ranked HHM runthrough I was using Kent/Sain pretty liberally and still only managed to promote them before chapter 28 (personal experience yada yada).

Edited December 24, 2008 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

Yes, I DO know it for a fact. The only reason ANYBODY is going to use Isadora is she's just barely passable for a challenge on a ranked run.

No, you don't. Have you asked everybody who's ever played HHM ranked if they used Isadora, and if they did use Isadora did they do it because she was hot?

No, nobody is going to use Jeigan endgame, period, because unlike Isadora, he's useless by that point.

Some people might. You just don't know.

NOW who's being biased?

Nobody? Tier list assumes you're using Karel to judge him. Tier list assumes you're using whoever you're judging. If anything, it's equal amount of bias to all, which isn't even bias.

For the TEN BILLIONTH TIME: I fucking know this. And IF you use Karel, then the team suffers.

The team doesn't suffer, though. The team gets a slight boost because they get a unit with high speed/evasion/whatnot, even if he is frail.

Except he's a billion times better than the other unit so it's a moot point.

No, it's not a moot point.

Do you ENJOY making me repeat myself over and over again? This. Is. Assuming. THE OVERALL TEAM, because anything else is ignorant. Individuality is all good and well UNTIL it starts affecting the performance of other characters.

Except Karel's presence isn't hindering the performance of other characters.

Except it isn't bias at all. Pretending that an inferior unit blocking out a superior unit doesn't matter at all? THAT's bias.

That's the worst way of looking at it. Pretending a unit blocking out a unit, in general, not mattering is bias on both ends, regardless of whether or not one is superior or not. It may as well be a strike against both of them

And how many fucking times am I going to have to say it before you FINALLY get it? Nobody is ASSUMING Harken is being played.

The tier list does when Harken's being judged.

I only said he had a higher chance, which is just common sense.

Common sense has little place in the tier list debate. Common sense mainly dictates the the tier list doesn't matter because anyone can be blessed or screwed because the entire game is dictated by an RNG. But we're arguing tiers anyway. So don't wave the common sense flag at someone when it comes to Fire Emblem.

Just like between choosing between a max stat general and a unit with 1s in all stats for the final chapter, most people are going to choose the general.

Of course the guy with 1s in all stats will suffer because he blows. The max stat general will not suffer because he doesn't blow (unless the game has enemies with like... twice the max stats of a General). And the same principle applies; punish both or neither. But don't be a hypocrite.

ANY sort of gap between any performance WHATSOEVER.

And that's why they don't get penalized for it, because for the ten millionth time, which you have yet to counter with ANY logic whatsoever: Units shutting other units out ONLY matters when there's a gap in their performance.

There's always a gap between performance, of some sort.

You really don't get it, do you? If you punish Karel and Harken (because one will always block off another), you must also punish every other instance (which is apparently moot because they're all more or less the same character - I call bullshit because everything must be taken into account). In fact, if you punish Karel for blocking out Harken, you must punish Harken for doing the same to Karel no matter what the reason for solely punishing Karel may exist. Otherwise, the tier list becomes inaccurate and judges based upon one factor; how much the creator of the list favors the unit.

There is other logic that "x blocking out y" applies to, and that's

- An inferior unit blocking out a slot for a superior unit. Sure, the inferior unit is likely able to be played with the superior unit, but in this case you have seven slots in an eight slot chapter... what will you do? You could make the inferior unit worse on the tier list because it blocks out the superior unit's chance to be on the map and apply the same principle... meaning that many things below high or even mid tier will go down to a bottom tier of sorts. Or you could punish them both for preventing bias.

- A unit kills a unit. Cool, this guy is blocking out EXP that another unit can't get; it's the same sort of principle! Yet you continue to deny it. Punish the lower tiers because they have a chance of killing units that a higher tier should've gotten to and killed first, and the higher tier should've gotten more EXP while the lower tier should rot to dust. Basically, everyone below High or Mid should go to Bottom and we shouldn't care about the lower tiers! Because nobody gives a shit about the lowers tiers, as you're saying! (Which is clearly untrue, considering the amount of Nino fanboys that are in the FAQ writers).

But do HHM enemies REALLY fail so much that they're getting doubled by 14 speed?

I don't think they fail enough to double Wallace.

btw, Hero Lorenz just makes him go from sucking to sucking. His offense is meh and his durability is lol [iIRC, around Samson level bases] not to mention he's using up a hero slot.

Hence why I ended up agreeing, aside from the hero slot part.

Hymir is also shoving somebody out of hero for just barely passable performance. Don't see it happening.

It's not "barely passable" it's just "passable." The point about "shoving somebody out of Hero" still being up for question above, with the Harken vs Karel principle.

I've yet to hear your thoughts on the hard drive metaphor, also. It's ridiculously similar to the Karel vs Harken situation.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Have you asked everybody who's ever played HHM ranked if they used Isadora, and if they did use Isadora did they do it because she was hot?

Right back at you. Where's your alarming proof that I'm wrong?

And you're totally missing THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF WHY I BOUGHT THIS UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. But it's kind of cute watching it go over your head, so I'll leave it.

Some people might. You just don't know.

If Jeigan was passable Endgame, like, say, Marcus? Yes, I would buy that. He is NOT fucking passable. He's getting doubled, owned in one round, doing crappy damage, and you just can't do anything with him. You can run around it all you want, some people might keep him on the team for a few chapters longer than they're supposed to, but NOBODY is bringing him to endgame. Period.

The team doesn't suffer, though. The team gets a slight boost because they get a unit with high speed/evasion/whatnot, even if he is frail.

except his avo sucks, and he's still blocking out Harken.

No, it's not a moot point.

Why ISN'T it? I've asked you this about a hundred million different times now. Not a single response. Answer or I ignore you from now on. Because if you can't answer this one question about why it matters that two damn near identical units block each other out, you're debunking your own argument.

That's the worst way of looking at it. Pretending a unit blocking out a unit, in general, not mattering is bias on both ends, regardless of whether or not one is superior or not. It may as well be a strike against both of them

You don't even get why it's an issue in the first place, do you? Karel is getting punished for it NOT because he's blocking out Harken, but because he's blocking out a superior unit. Punishing Harken for blocking out an inferior unit makes no sense [Not just inferior to him, mind. Karel sucks, period]. I mean, how is blocking out a bad unit a BAD thing? It's not really a good thing. But it's not really a bad thing.

There's always a gap between performance, of some sort.

Prove to me that Alan>Samson or Samson>Alan by any significant amount and I'll change it. Good luck, btw.

which is apparently moot because they're all more or less the same character

How is it MY fault IS decided to make almost every other instance of this having similar usefulness for both characters? I don't work for IS.

Of course the guy with 1s in all stats will suffer because he blows. The max stat general will not suffer because he doesn't blow (unless the game has enemies with like... twice the max stats of a General). And the same principle applies; punish both or neither. But don't be a hypocrite.

Oh wow. You honestly think people are going to CARE that the 1 stat guy won't join.

- An inferior unit blocking out a slot for a superior unit. Sure, the inferior unit is likely able to be played with the superior unit, but in this case you have seven slots in an eight slot chapter... what will you do? You could make the inferior unit worse on the tier list because it blocks out the superior unit's chance to be on the map and apply the same principle... meaning that many things below high or even mid tier will go down to a bottom tier of sorts. Or you could punish them both for preventing bias.

Except for the fact that you'll usually have so many character slots to spare that there's nothing wrong with tossing in a few lower ends like Cord, Palla, and what have you if you want a full 15 [though honestly, can you ever pick more than 14?] team. So this logic is BS.

A unit kills a unit. Cool, this guy is blocking out EXP that another unit can't get; it's the same sort of principle! Yet you continue to deny it. Punish the lower tiers because they have a chance of killing units that a higher tier should've gotten to and killed first, and the higher tier should've gotten more EXP while the lower tier should rot to dust. Basically, everyone below High or Mid should go to Bottom and we shouldn't care about the lower tiers! (Which is clearly untrue, considering the amount of Nino fanboys that are in the FAQ writers).

This logic is ALSO BS, since:

A: Your guys have way too much EXP to go around anyway, lol 20/15 endgame lvl

B: That EXP is getting used up the same way, no matter who that unit is. It doesn't matter if it's Ogma or Vyland taking the kill, what's gone is gone. Everybody gets punished equally for this. The only variable for how much EXP is wasted is how many units you bring [or if you blew some EXP on Horace and killed him a few chapters later, or had to use Shiida to kill something early on or what the crap ever], and that's cancelled out by the fact you can have another unit running around killing stuff. In fact....more units is generally better for just this reason, since you still have tons of EXP, and I just said there's plenty of room for fillers, so sorry, you're wrong again.

Because nobody gives a shit about the lowers tiers, as you're saying!

Wow, are you retarded? I'm getting sick of you putting words in my mouth, just so you know.

I've yet to hear your thoughts on the hard drive metaphor, also. It's ridiculously similar to the Karel vs Harken situation.

Because it's a bullshit metaphor, because it assumes you actually have a reason to pick the 600 gig over the 1000 gig. 600 MB can still hold a ton of stuff for 20$ cheaper. You can do a lot with 20$. Hell, I have a 30 gig drive with a LOT of stuff on it and I'm still not even close to running out. The very thought that this is even COMPARABLE to Harken/Karel is lolable. Think up a better one. Alan/Samson or the royals? That might actually work.

No wait, I got it.

You walk up on the street to a lemonade stand. You can either have lemonade for free or dog piss in a glass for twenty bucks. You can take the lemonade, but does that detract from the overall quality of the dog piss in the glass?

There. I answered your question. You answer mine. I've only had to ask for about the 92307518623632879026th time.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Rodykitty]

Yes, I DO know it for a fact. The only reason ANYBODY is going to use Isadora is she's just barely passable for a challenge on a ranked run.

Beserker Blader, I'm siding with you, but your argument would be much more effective if you said "players that are using what is most effective" for a ranked run, rather than just any player.

Any player can be those noobs that train Nino or Est to 20/20 and then argue that they shouldn't be bottom. Expert players that are using the best characters ARE the players you describe, and are a specific group.

The tier list are for the latter. I already made a list for the former (which you've seen on GameFAQs frequently.)

[Mekkah]

But do HHM enemies REALLY fail so much that they're getting doubled by 14 speed?

Yes. In fact, the _mercs_ have 10-13 AS in that chapter, so Geitz already doubles a few of them. Wyverns, Pirates, everything but the Heroes is doubled by Geitz. And he has actual growths in the areas that matter (50% Str, 40% Spd), so he'll be able to double Mercs in a few chapters.

The only things Geitz won't double after a few level ups are really fast swordies, some bosses and Valkyries. And yeah, 20/1 Kent was being generous. In a ranked run, you have to distribute EXP way much more than that. In other news, 14.6 is 20/1 Sain's Spd.

[Lord Raven]

Beserker Blader, I'm siding with you, but your argument would be much more effective if you said "players that are using what is most effective" for a ranked run, rather than just any player.

An optimized rank run would obviously consist of Top, High, and upper mid tier characters. But he's arguing ranked in general, which this tier list also applies to; you just can't predict who will use what on a general ranked run.

Right back at you. Where's your alarming proof that I'm wrong?

There isn't any. So this assumption cannot even be made.

If Jeigan was passable Endgame, like, say, Marcus? Yes, I would buy that. He is NOT fucking passable. He's getting doubled, owned in one round, doing crappy damage, and you just can't do anything with him. You can run around it all you want, some people might keep him on the team for a few chapters longer than they're supposed to, but NOBODY is bringing him to endgame. Period.

You don't know if nobody is bring him.

except his avo sucks, and he's still blocking out Harken.

His avoid is better than Harken's at base level.

On top of how blocking out Harken doesn't even show how the team gets worse.

The team only gets worse from Karel's recruitment if his recruitment kills off every single character on your team. Overall, the same applies to Harken really.

But the team can't get worse from Karel's recruitment. If you were to use Karel, then it wouldn't be as good as using Harken on your team; but the same thing applies to every low tier in the game compared to a high tier. Using Wil on your team means you can't use Rebecca, using Isadora means you can't use Raven (well, not always, but still). Especially considering how you only have like 10 char slots on average, with like 1 or 2 Lords included in that 10. But this is a character comparison, something that is highly discouraged when judging tiers anyway.

Why ISN'T it? I've asked you this about a hundred million different times now. Not a single response. Answer or I ignore you from now on. Because if you can't answer this one question about why it matters that two damn near identical units block each other out, you're debunking your own argument.

It matters just as much as Harken vs Karel. It's the exact same situation (the quality is irrelevant, considering how when you're first constructing a tier list you shouldn't quite know that Harken > Karel anyway) where using one unit = not using another, because it's simply impossible to obtain both units and use them in tandem.

You don't even get why it's an issue in the first place, do you? Karel is getting punished for it NOT because he's blocking out Harken, but because he's blocking out a superior unit. Punishing Harken for blocking out an inferior unit makes no sense [Not just inferior to him, mind. Karel sucks, period]. I mean, how is blocking out a bad unit a BAD thing? It's not really a good thing. But it's not really a bad thing.

Karel doesn't outright suck, anyway. He's average, probably; on top of that, HHM enemies still suck hard. The point is they're blocking out each other, which is a far more consistent point than one being a worser character blocking out a better character, meaning that the character gets even more worse. This is about as relevant, and the argument is akin to, taking EXP/slots from better units dragging the lower tiers even lower, and hell characters getting lower because upper tiers are better characters than them.

Oh wow. You honestly think people are going to CARE that the 1 stat guy won't join.

Not only are you not specific about the surrounding atmosphere and conditions of the game, but this is more or less the same principle. It doesn't matter who the hell cares, anyway, since there's no way to prove how many people do care and the amount of people that care about tiers

Except for the fact that you'll usually have so many character slots to spare that there's nothing wrong with tossing in a few lower ends like Cord, Palla, and what have you if you want a full 15 [though honestly, can you ever pick more than 14?] team. So this logic is BS.

There are... 15 character slots per chapter in FE DS? If I recall correctly there are more like 10 per chapter, 12 at best. Even then there's the chance that that they'll be taking EXP away from a superior unit preventing the superior unit from being better so...

A: Your guys have way too much EXP to go around anyway, lol 20/15 endgame lvl

They... do? 20/10 seems a lot more realistic to me, especially if you're staying true to EXP rank and spreading levels out to other units aside from your main team.

B: That EXP is getting used up the same way, no matter who that unit is. It doesn't matter if it's Ogma or Vyland taking the kill, what's gone is gone. Everybody gets punished equally for this. The only variable for how much EXP is wasted is how many units you bring [or if you blew some EXP on Horace and killed him a few chapters later, or had to use Shiida to kill something early on or what the crap ever], and that's cancelled out by the fact you can have another unit running around killing stuff. In fact....more units is generally better for just this reason, since you still have tons of EXP, and I just said there's plenty of room for fillers, so sorry, you're wrong again.

There's... tons of EXP in this game too? There aren't that many enemies to kill, and on my normal mode playthrough I probably had like 20/7 or 20/8 at best as far as my levels were concerned. Then again, I didn't go to any Gaidens.

If everyone's getting pushed for taking EXP and a slot away from each other... why aren't Harken and Karel both? It makes no sense.

And regardless of whether or not you think it's "BS" it's a factor to consider.

Wow, are you retarded? I'm getting sick of you putting words in my mouth, just so you know.

That's cool. You seem like you're implying that lower tiers exist only to suck away from the upper tiers. That nothing matters if they're both low on the list, because apparently no one gives a damn about them.

Because it's a bullshit metaphor, because it assumes you actually have a reason to pick the 600 gig over the 1000 gig. 600 MB can still hold a ton of stuff for 20$ cheaper. You can do a lot with 20$. Hell, I have a 30 gig drive with a LOT of stuff on it and I'm still not even close to running out. The very thought that this is even COMPARABLE to Harken/Karel is lolable. Think up a better one. Alan/Samson or the royals? That might actually work.

There are reasons to pick Karel over Harken though, and this is not only dependent on who the player likes better (personal bias) but dependent on whether or not you like his supports, his speed, etc. But the 1000 GB doesn't do shit for the 600 GB's quality even if you're missing out on the 1000 GB.

You walk up on the street to a lemonade stand. You can either have lemonade for free or dog piss in a glass for twenty bucks. You can take the lemonade, but does that detract from the overall quality of the dog piss in the glass?

The lemonade doesn't detract from its quality at all. This is a pretty extreme example (and I mean EXTREME because Karel has passable performance, whereas a 20 dollar glass of dog piss does not), anyway. Edited December 24, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

An optimized rank run would obviously consist of Top, High, and upper mid tier characters. But he's arguing ranked in general, which this tier list also applies to; you just can't predict who will use what on a general ranked run.

This is about what character is better, not who people are actually going to use even in a general ranked run.

You've argued about Beserker Blader about this whole "players using unpredictable characters." I say this to you: Freaking irrelevant! This is one of the most pointless and stupid arguments I have ever seen. You are so passionate for an argument that, in the end, isn't going to affect the tier list at all.

There's a reason I made the statement that you quoted, to try and get Beserker Blader to better word himself to prevent more pointless arguments like this from happening.

[Lord Raven]

You are so passionate for an argument that, in the end, isn't going to affect the tier list at all.

The point is to change the principle that "x" character is always going to be used because he's better. It won't affect the tier list but... it'll definitely affect the debate around it.

My main point is that you can't say that x character will always be used no matter what in a ranked run. Assumptions have little place; I believe the tier list should reflect the potential of a character as opposed to what apparently is supposed to happen.

Like, Isadora is a support partner for Harken (and a damn fast one), but rather than trivializing it we should include it as a factor. Trivializing it is used with logic like "she's in a low tier so she won't be used because she sucks," but the point is that you can't always assume that she won't be used. If that makes sense? :S

Edited December 25, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Clonez]

Isadora is actually a decent unit.

[Lord Raven]

Hmm, let's not talk about that here. XD

Edited December 25, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Yes. In fact, the _mercs_ have 10-13 AS in that chapter, so Geitz already doubles a few of them. Wyverns, Pirates, everything but the Heroes is doubled by Geitz. And he has actual growths in the areas that matter (50% Str, 40% Spd), so he'll be able to double Mercs in a few chapters.

The only things Geitz won't double after a few level ups are really fast swordies, some bosses and Valkyries. And yeah, 20/1 Kent was being generous. In a ranked run, you have to distribute EXP way much more than that. In other news, 14.6 is 20/1 Sain's Spd.

fair enough

Oh, by the way, I'm done with COTM boy since he apparently can't answer a simple question after I've had to ask him about fifty trillion times, said question being the entire key to this long ass argument in the first place, proving his argument is a crock pot of shit.

Oh, and he needs to learn to stop putting words in people's mouths. One last time:

Trivializing it is used with logic like "she's in a low tier so she won't be used because she sucks," but the point is that you can't always assume that she won't be used.

I never fucking said this. The exact same thing with Karel. Please retake English, and let's try this again when you get some decent reading comprehension skills, mmkay? Wait, didn't I already TELL you I never said this about, fifty million times, more or less?

Merry fucking christmas.

Now, where the fuck were we?

Edited December 25, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Rodykitty]

The point is to change the principle that "x" character is always going to be used because he's better. It won't affect the tier list but... it'll definitely affect the debate around it.

My main point is that you can't say that x character will always be used no matter what in a ranked run. Assumptions have little place; I believe the tier list should reflect the potential of a character as opposed to what apparently is supposed to happen.

He uses said assumptions to make a point. When you stop taking his meanings so literally, then you'll understand better what he means.

When comparing characters, we have to talk about which character is more suited for an optimal run, or else we won't come to the conclusion of who is better. It doesn't matter who we compare, we could compare the two bottom characters and still figure out who is more suited for an optimal run, regardless of whether players actually use them in real life or not.

Like, Isadora is a support partner for Harken (and a damn fast one), but rather than trivializing it we should include it as a factor. Trivializing it is used with logic like "she's in a low tier so she won't be used because she sucks," but the point is that you can't always assume that she won't be used. If that makes sense? :S

And this is part of why Isadora isn't bottom tier. Edited December 25, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

He uses said assumptions to make a point. When you stop taking his meanings so literally, then you'll understand better what he means.

But... they're assumptions. They're not backed up at all; it doesn't matter whether or not I'm taking them literally; you use facts to conjure up a tier list, not assumptions.

When comparing characters, we have to talk about which character is more suited for an optimal run, or else we won't come to the conclusion of who is better. It doesn't matter who we compare, we could compare the two bottom characters and still figure out who is more suited for an optimal run, regardless of whether players actually use them in real life or not.

This is very true. I don't think I was denying this, and if I did it was probably unintentional.

Oh, by the way, I'm done with COTM boy since he apparently can't answer a simple question after I've had to ask him about fifty trillion times, said question being the entire key to this long ass argument in the first place, proving his argument is a crock pot of shit.

What question? I'm just countering your points.

I never fucking said this.

Knowing your mindset it would be more or less the same. Because they're lower, no one cares enough to use them so they should get the short end of the stick when you have to compare two characters. This obviously can't apply to when two characters have a similar quality of performance, says you, because the circumstances are not similar.

They both get penalized for taking a slot away from another character, superior or not. Everyone gets penalized equally for taking a slot on a map for another character, regardless of who it is... which further shows the double standard you're setting for the tiers.

I seriously think Hymir is somewhere in Low because of his capabilities as a Hero, whereas Bord is at the top of Bottom or bottom of High for the same reasons. Hymir has low availability but his performance as a Hero is definitely passable in Normal mode. Bord has availability on his side, although his speed suffers.

and seriously... you should chill out. It's just a video game.

Edited December 25, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Hymir comes too late and in normal mode, his usefulness hardly matters.

[Rodykitty]

But... they're assumptions. They're not backed up at all; it doesn't matter whether or not I'm taking them literally; you use facts to conjure up a tier list, not assumptions.

Again, don't take what he's saying literally.

When he says "nobody is going to use Karel", he doesn't literally mean nobody is actually going to use that character, it is just his way of saying that there isn't much point in choosing him above Harken.

[Lord Raven]

Then he should say that instead of "nobody should use Karel." But even then, it has no effect on Karel's use; it just affects his placement on the tiers the same as Harken's arrival affects him. Which I'm pretty sure you agree with.

Hymir comes too late and in normal mode, his usefulness hardly matters.

But he is still a quality unit regardless. His lateness is why I vouch Low tier at best - the rest is irrelevant.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

But he is still a quality unit regardless. His lateness is why I vouch Low tier at best - the rest is irrelevant.

(In normal mode) What more does he offer that can't already be accomplished by crappier units you get earlier? I could see him moving up higher in the H5 tier list since he doesn't get doubled for a while as a Hero and does some decent damage, but not in normal.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Then he should say that instead of "nobody should use Karel."

I already suggested changing his wording. Now I suggest to you to actually understand what he's talking about. You're nitpicking and arguing over a misunderstanding on your part. Not everybody on the internet phrases themselves carefully, and nor should they have to especially in communities where not everybody is a Harvord student with a major in English.

But even then, it has no effect on Karel's use; it just affects his placement on the tiers the same as Harken's arrival affects him. Which I'm pretty sure you agree with.

Of course I agree, because it's exactly what I've been telling you this whole time.

I could see him moving up higher in the H5 tier list since he doesn't get doubled for a while as a Hero and does some decent damage, but not in normal.

He'll definitely move up on H5. You're more pressed for units on H5, so the extra help is extremely valuable. He even gets a B in Axes, so he's useful right away.

Also, if Ymir wants to be in Low tier on NM, then Elice must go up too, because having an A in staves off the bat is a significant utility even for lategame, and I agree with her being above Ymir for that reason.

Edited December 26, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Zeldafreak007]

If Jeigan was passable Endgame, like, say, Marcus? Yes, I would buy that. He is NOT fucking passable. He's getting doubled, owned in one round, doing crappy damage, and you just can't do anything with him. You can run around it all you want, some people might keep him on the team for a few chapters longer than they're supposed to, but NOBODY is bringing him to endgame. Period.

I couldn't give less than half a shit if you call me fucking ignorant, but honestly, must you understand that regardless of shit stats, people use a certain character for whatever reason, such as bringing them into endgame. Please tell me what you're basing this off of, because Normal Mode is obviously too easy for the average FE player, and Jeigan will survive just as well as any other unit.

Source? I'VE FUCKING DONE IT.

[Rodykitty]

Again though, he's saying that there's little practical reason to take Jeigan to endgame in a ranked game.

I do disagree slightly, since using him as a Bishop will give him practical tools that can aid the army at that point still, although he would be low/bottom tier quality by then (less so earlier on in the game). He'll be just like Ellis, getting killed by a gust of air, except that he's available for most of the game.

There are impractical reasons to take him to endgame. You could pump him up with stat boosting items to make him suck less, but that's completely irrelevant, obviously. Of course some people will do this, but it's too much favortism to account for anyway.

[Lord Raven]

Zeldafreak007: already discussed. What is it with people and being hostile

(In normal mode) What more does he offer that can't already be accomplished by crappier units you get earlier? I could see him moving up higher in the H5 tier list since he doesn't get doubled for a while as a Hero and does some decent damage, but not in normal.

La la la character comparisons etc. Why does "everybody else doing better" have anything to do with how he's doing anyway?

Also, if Ymir wants to be in Low tier on NM, then Elice must go up too, because having an A in staves off the bat is a significant utility even for lategame, and I agree with her being above Ymir for that reason.

Sounds right I suppose. She's around for only slightly longer than Ymir and being a good physic user is definitely better than an axe user.

[Zeldafreak007]

Why? I have a history with BB.

He calls me ignorant every fucking time, without realizing his own ignorance.

Tl;dr: He pisses me off. A lot.

[Rodykitty]

La la la character comparisons etc. Why does "everybody else doing better" have anything to do with how he's doing anyway?

Well, it matters for tier position, of course.

Why? I have a history with BB.

He calls me ignorant every fucking time, without realizing his own ignorance.

Tl;dr: He pisses me off. A lot.

PMs. Use them. This isn't GameFAQs, this site actually has useful features.

[Lord Raven]

Well, it matters for tier position, of course.

Not specifically, just generally. If everyone else is doing better, his performance doesn't get any worse.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Sounds right I suppose. She's around for only slightly longer than Ymir and being a good physic user is definitely better than an axe user.

Ymir comes in chapter 21 (if you went to 20x and Elice comes in chapter 24 >_>. Also, she may be able to use Physic, but your promoted magic units will do a better job of it since you know... they have a better magic stat >_>. Her best uses are Recover, Warp and Fortify (she'll heal the same amount as with Physic but every1's getting healed and not every Sage can reach A rank staff easily).

La la la character comparisons etc. Why does "everybody else doing better" have anything to do with how he's doing anyway?

Maybe not his individual performance but it plays a factor in how useful he is to your army. Normal doesn't ask much of you, you could even play with the crappiest characters and it probably wouldn't be hard at all. In H5, this is a different story. Play with the crappy characters and you're begging to end up forced with the generics or having to restart the game. As I've said before, Ymir as a Hero doesn't get doubled and performs decently with Pole Axe, Devil Axe and Killer Axe. As a warrior, he's got 14 SPD but a B on axes which makes him a good offensive fighter, despite his crappy defense.

In normal, by the time you get Ymir, you've already got people who can do what he can with little difference, his recruitment hardly makes a difference. You could train as many units as you want and it will hardly impact a thing.

In H5, you could still make use of Ymir because you could probably switch him for one of your main units if they're not suited for the chapter or if they ended up screwed. In H5, you have to limit the units you use and train a select few so they can keep up with the enemies because most of them will be nuked in 2 attacks quite often. If you have some space available, Ymir could make good use of it.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Levin