So...let's talk tiers.

[Lord Raven]

Ymir comes in chapter 21 (if you went to 20x and Elice comes in chapter 24 >_>. Also, she may be able to use Physic, but your promoted magic units will do a better job of it since you know... they have a better magic stat >_>. Her best uses are Recover, Warp and Fortify (she'll heal the same amount as with Physic but every1's getting healed and not every Sage can reach A rank staff easily).

http://tempfess.superbusnet.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry321905

How well everyone else is doing != how well they are doing individually. Elice's use as a Healer is going to be better than everyone else's use as a pitiful fighter. Ymir's performance as a Hero is better than many's performance as Hero or Fighter; it's cool that people are doing better than him at that time, and that determines that those characters are higher than Ymir, not that Ymir is automatically Bottom because of it.

Everyone else being better means he's worthless. Tiers judge quality and potential, which is different from worth. And he's potential enough for a lower tier. Worthless doesn't mean he can't be useful, because worthless applies to half the characters in an FE game ever (like Sothe in FE9), many of which actually do have potential to be useful.

We're arguing normal mode at any rate. H5 comparisons are irrelevant. Read the first post a bit (I'm guilty of not reading it specifically either, just the tiers themselves).

Edited December 26, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

http://tempfess.superbusnet.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry321905

How well everyone else is doing != how well they are doing individually. Elice's use as a Healer is going to be better than everyone else's use as a pitiful fighter. Ymir's performance as a Hero is better than many's performance as Hero or Fighter; it's cool that people are doing better than him at that time, and that determines that those characters are higher than Ymir, not that Ymir is automatically Bottom because of it.

Everyone else being better means he's worthless. Tiers judge quality and potential, which is different from worth. And he's potential enough for a lower tier. Worthless doesn't mean he can't be useful, because worthless applies to half the characters in an FE game ever (like Sothe in FE9), many of which actually do have potential to be useful.

We're arguing normal mode at any rate. H5 comparisons are irrelevant. Read the first post a bit (I'm guilty of not reading it specifically either, just the tiers themselves).

I'll read that link but first I want you to use CTRL + F and type in "Worth". See if you can find any results in my posts from this page (besides this one of course).

Edited December 26, 2008 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Everyone else being better means he's worthless.

This statement only applies to Est. Ymir is better than some characters for sure, so obviously he's not worthless.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

This statement only applies to Est. Ymir is better than some characters for sure, so obviously he's not worthless.

Precisely, I never said Ymir is worthless, just that his contributions won't mean much since lots of other units can easily fulfill his role in NM.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Levin

[Lord Raven]

Levin, which tier are you arguing Ymir for? I'm making myself look like an idiot as of the last eight pages so we may as well clarify first.

[Dat Nick]

and Jeigan will survive just as well as any other unit.

stopped reading there

he's going to get doubled and killed in one round. 12 AS sucks. Even on NM.

Source? I'VE FUCKING DONE IT.

and i've been to the moon. Sorry kid, but he's going to get floored in one round, and won't even deal that much damage even with gradius before going down, and there's just no way you're bullshitting out of that. Mkay?

He calls me ignorant every fucking time, without realizing his own ignorance.

it would be a step in the right direction if you could actually give reasons WHY I am ignorant

What question? I'm just countering your points.

I asked you SEVERAL TRILLION TIMES why it matters that units on the same level block each other out, this being pretty much the entire debate for the past several pages. Not ONCE did you answer this.

Because they're lower, no one cares enough to use them so they should get the short end of the stick when you have to compare two characters.

And there you go again being retarded and quoting shit I never said. You're SERIOUSLY pissing me off here, you know that? How many more times do I need to say I NEVER said this before it finally goes through your defect skull?

and seriously... you should chill out. It's just a video game.

And YOU should stop being a retard and putting things I never said into my mouth WHEN I HAVE SAID TEN BILLION TIMES I NEVER SAID ANYBODY WOULD NOT USE LOW/BOTTOM TIER UNITS AND I'M REALLY GETTING FUCKING SICK OF SAYING I NEVER DID TO YOUR TEN YEAR OLD MIND

They both get penalized for taking a slot away from another character, superior or not. Everyone gets penalized equally for taking a slot on a map for another character, regardless of who it is

Except it doesn't because you have plenty of spare slots to go around and probably won't use the full 15-12. Even with, say, Cord and Caesar and Vyland thrown in to who you're already using.

Edited December 27, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

I asked you SEVERAL TRILLION TIMES why it matters that units on the same level block each other out, this being pretty much the entire debate for the past several pages. Not ONCE did you answer this.

It's taking a slot away from another unit, on top of taking away another unit's existence. That's why it matters. I don't see how it should be any more trivial when their quality is factored in.

And there you go again being retarded and quoting shit I never said. You're SERIOUSLY pissing me off here, you know that? How many more times do I need to say I NEVER said this before it finally goes through your defect skull?

How can you say you've never said it? It's your entire mindset behind the "well, the only reason Karel goes down for something no one else goes down for is because he's not nearly as good as Harken."

And YOU should stop being a retard and putting things I never said into my mouth WHEN I HAVE SAID TEN BILLION TIMES I NEVER SAID ANYBODY WOULD NOT USE LOW/BOTTOM TIER UNITS AND I'M REALLY GETTING FUCKING SICK OF SAYING I NEVER DID TO YOUR TEN YEAR OLD MIND

lol

here's to say, I didn't expect much better

Except it doesn't because you have plenty of spare slots to go around and probably won't use the full 15-12. Even with, say, Cord and Caesar and Vyland thrown in to who you're already using.

15-12? lol

It still doesn't matter how many slots they are. Lower tier units are taking away slots that upper tier units can use. (The reverse applies, too).

Edited December 27, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Levin, which tier are you arguing Ymir for? I'm making myself look like an idiot as of the last eight pages so we may as well clarify first.

I don't care much for his position but since I disagree with your argument, bottom tier.

[Lord Raven]

My argument that Ymir does well in Normal Mode as a Hero?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

My argument that Ymir does well in Normal Mode as a Hero?

No, I mean whether or not Ymir should move up to the low tier. I know he's going to do well in normal mode as a hero because he actually help as one in H5. The point is that it hardly matters in normal mode because you don't need him.

I acknowledge that as a Hero, his stats are decent and he has something to offer in the lategame chapters. Which is reason enough to be just below Ellis on the tier list. Now do consider that Normal Mode's difficulty hardly demands good units. Ymir can't contribute much more than most (if not all) of those units above game and the late game is probably the easiest part, him being used in those chapters hardly makes a blasted difference.

@BB: What's the criteria for this tier list? Individual performance? Character usefulness?

Edited December 27, 2008 by Levin

[Lord Raven]

But... he still does well in those chapters. How does that not put him above all of the bottom tier? If individual worth matters, then he's good because he can handle Normal mode just fine. If usefulness matters, hell he's a decent fighter so he's still put above bottom tier in both instances.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

But... he still does well in those chapters. How does that not put him above all of the bottom tier? If individual worth matters, then he's good because he can handle Normal mode just fine. If usefulness matters, hell he's a decent fighter so he's still put above bottom tier in both instances.

So can nearly every1 else in NM which is precisely why you don't need him at all, he's just a filler and may often not see any use because of how piss easy NM and its lategame chapters are. I think it may be possible for him to move up to the low tier but your method certainly isn't working. Maybe you can knock some others down a notch?

Edited December 27, 2008 by Levin

[Lord Raven]

Not everyone in the game can handle normal mode. And Ymir can certainly handle it better than many others anyway.

Normal mode being piss easy isn't a valid argument, either. It merely means that more people have a chance to go higher because more characters can handle the mode they're in...

[dondon151]

Except it doesn't because you have plenty of spare slots to go around and probably won't use the full 15-12. Even with, say, Cord and Caesar and Vyland thrown in to who you're already using.

Shouldn't you always deploy the maximum amount of units to maximize efficiency on the map?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Not everyone in the game can handle normal mode. And Ymir can certainly handle it better than many others anyway.

Normal mode being piss easy isn't a valid argument, either. It merely means that more people have a chance to go higher because more characters can handle the mode they're in...

You still neglect the fact that Ymir comes too late for his contributions to matter. He'd be great if he came a little earlier but no, you already have 8 Master seals by then and more than enough power to easily tear through the chapters he's in. His existence in NM makes little or no difference since most units will do fine.

How's the difficulty of normal mode an invalid argument? You telling me that Bors' (FE6) spot on the HM tier list should be the same as in normal?

[dondon151]

How's the difficulty of normal mode an invalid argument? You telling me that Bors' (FE6) spot on the HM tier list should be the same as in normal?

I haven't played this game yet, but this comparison would only be fair if Ymir were alright on NM and consistently doubled on H5, since that's what defines the difference in Bors's standing on the NM and HM tier lists.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I haven't played this game yet, but this comparison would only be fair if Ymir were alright on NM and consistently doubled on H5, since that's what defines the difference in Bors's standing on the NM and HM tier lists.

Hmm, true it isn't really a good example since it's the opposite for Ymir since he's a better help in H5 than in normal.

[Rodykitty]

I think Ymir's position is fine, or at least relative to other characters.

The characters right above can help your army earlier on in the game, and Ymir is more helpful than the characters below him.

Edited December 27, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Lord Raven]

... I don't think Ymir's capabilities are Bottom tier worthy. Elice and Ymir deserve Low tier both, anyway.

You still neglect the fact that Ymir comes too late for his contributions to matter. He'd be great if he came a little earlier but no, you already have 8 Master seals by then and more than enough power to easily tear through the chapters he's in. His existence in NM makes little or no difference since most units will do fine.

But... this is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with Ymir's contributions. It matters whether or not they're good or bad, not whether or not it matters.

How's the difficulty of normal mode an invalid argument?

Because all it determines is how well more characters will do, and really it shouldn't be used as a way to trivialize a character.

[Rodykitty]

... I don't think Ymir's capabilities are Bottom tier worthy. Elice and Ymir deserve Low tier both, anyway.

I just said relative to other characters. I said that for a reason, you know.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Last time I'll say it: Ymir makes little to no difference in NM.

[Lord Raven]

And that has nothing to do with the tiers.

[slax]

Wait, so that list on the first page hasn't had any changes?

And it's supposed to be a normal mode list?

Before I say what I think, I'll just ask for reasoning for placements,

1- Merric, why so high?

2-Xane, why so high?

3-Lena, why so low?

4-Darros, why so high?

5- Nagi, why so high?

6-shiida, why so low?

That's all I'll start with for now.

[Rodykitty]

1- Merric, why so high?

I don't think he's *that* high personally (top tier for sure, because that tier is more appropriate for characters in a completely different league), but he's high because of his utility and growths as a Curate. He loses some Mag growth, but since he is able to get to 20/1 so quickly because of staves, his obscenely high level will offset it, and he'll still be able to use Excalibur after promotion, and gain Tome Levels doing so.

2-Xane, why so high?

Because he is able to copy the best characters in that tier.

3-Lena, why so low?

Probably because Merric is so much better. She gets killed by a gust of wind, but is still in a decent thanks to her utility early game and Hammerne staff. I recently said that she needs to go up to High tier, right above Nagi.

4-Darros, why so high?

Mercenary class fixes his speed issues for NM, and he gets awesome Defense growth as one.

5- Nagi, why so high?

Utility as a component in clearing the final chapter in a single turn without needing to be leveled up. I would agree she should be lower on NM, but apparently you can't kill a Mamkute in one round without critical hit with any other character besides Marth, who needs to fight Medeus to one turn the final chapter. She's definitely high tier on H5 mode. Edited December 27, 2008 by FE3 Player

[Mekkah]

1- Merric, why so high?

Because "this is Normal Mode so he never dies". And obviously Excalibur.

2-Xane, why so high?

Copies your best unit, and you get to pick which for the situation. I personally think his availability hurts him too much to be that high, but w/e. He's that high for similar reasons as Ninian and Reyson.

3-Lena, why so low?

I'd say Warp + Hammerne + early staff utility puts her a lot higher than what she is, yeah.

4-Darros, why so high?

Because he's pretty good as a Merc...though lots of units are.

6-shiida, why so low?

I don't agree with this either. From what I see, her Spd doesnt matter because in NM all your units kill anything, her Wing Spear doesn't matter because your units always one-round Cavs and Armors, but her low Str and Def matter because all of a sudden enemies have Atk and um? Yeah...not to mention forges exist to fix her issues (AS loss, low Str).