So...let's talk tiers.

[Dat Nick]

it's lolNM. Are you really going to need physic that much?

Also, Draug should be like low-mid because his offense tends to grow well as a Fighter/Pirate (though his defense is still shit). 80% HP, 45% Str, 35% Skl, 50% Spd sounds cool even if there are 0% in Def/Res. His bases aren't too bad either.

0% defense cancels all of those out right away. It's just overkilling his offense. In NM you can one round everthing with a wet noodle, so he's really going to want that defense more.

also, enemy units are going to be slowing your fighters down. Merric's fine for catching up. Also, unless he's racing against Abel/Cain/Frey, the move difference isn't really that big.

[Lord Raven]

0% defense cancels all of those out right away. It's just overkilling his offense. In NM you can one round everthing with a wet noodle, so he's really going to want that defense more.

His HP is fine, though. He can't afford to get ganged up--but nobody can.

I think a couple level ups to boost his Speed then a couple level ups as a Knight sounds pretty good though.

[Dat Nick]

His HP is fine, though. He can't afford to get ganged up--but nobody can.

Anybody worth a crap on NM can. Especially if your name is Zagaro.

[Lord Raven]

That's just the High and God tier. I'm vouching for lower mid.

There also shouldn't be a one tier gap between Castor and Darros considering their base stats are incredibly similar. Take off the class bases and you have a skill lead of 2 on Darros' side, everything else is the same.

their growths aren't too far off either. Castor has a lot more skill and Speed but a bit less HP and a lot less Def. There shouldn't be that big a tier gap.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

providing you keep draug on armor? he'll be fine. Just his base defense is blocking out [or coming close to it] enemy atk in C5. Hell, even the Captain can take a few hits on NM once he gets some levels.

oh yes

Tomth>Medea at the very least

Actual staying power, for one. For two, he actually has higher base strength [lol] and she can't even use steel to compensate.

There also shouldn't be a one tier gap between Castor and Darros considering their base stats are incredibly similar. Take off the class bases and you have a skill lead of 2 on Darros' side.

Darros also has twice of castor oil's defense growth, as well as 10% more HP. Also, who's to say they take the same class? Merc probably isn't the best option for Castor Oil, but for Darros, it's the ONLY option.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Rodykitty]

I've been in agreement that Rena needs to rise up, if only because of Warp Staff use and nothing more, but not to top tier. She'll be using Warp when Maric isn't, and she'll be able to cut down turn counts even more once she Hammernes more Warp Staves.

[Lord Raven]

Actual staying power, for one. For two, he actually has higher base strength [lol] and she can't even use steel to compensate.

... they both start out with a Strength base of 1.

Darros also has twice of castor oil's defense growth, as well as 10% more HP. Also, who's to say they take the same class? Merc probably isn't the best option for Castor Oil, but for Darros, it's the ONLY option.

Twice naturally, it's 15% otherwise. They start out the same.

Also, who's to say they take the same class?

If they do, hypothetically, they will have the same stats aside from a 2 point Skill lead (one point speed also, but guess who has 25% more growth) on Darros' part. When you bring them up, Castor has loads more AS and Darros doesn't have much; his AS is purely from class growth (20% as a Mercenary lol).

Darros has only defense to fall back on considering they have exactly the same Strength.

Castor is a much better Mercenary too.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

.. they both start out with a Strength base of 1.

you quoted me on a totally unrelated subject.

Twice naturally, it's 15% otherwise. They start out the same.

Daros: 30% natural defense growth

Kashim: 15% natual defense growth

How the hell is that even CLOSE to the same? Also, 10% extra HP starts to stack up after a while.

If they do, hypothetically, they will have the same stats aside from a 2 point Skill lead (one point speed also, but guess who has 25% more growth) on Darros' part.

Don't forget MUCH more HP/def. And again, they probably won't. Castor REALLY wants some time as fighter, because he sorely needs HP.

Castor has loads more AS

not really

his AS is purely from class growth (20% as a Mercenary lol).

And that's all he needs. He hits the speed requirement to double most things, and that's all that matters. For the mamkutes, he shouldn't even need to double since wyrmslayers exist.

Castor is a much better Mercenary too.

How in the name of christ does an irrelevant AS lead beat out a significant durability lead?

he'll be using Warp when Maric isn't,

Warp-skipping before Maric can generally isn't a very good idea. Your characters are going to need some time to reach lolh4x status.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

How the hell is that even CLOSE to the same? Also, 10% extra HP starts to stack up after a while.

It's four points of HP by 20/20. It won't stack up too much especially since HP is the type of stat where a difference of three or four isn't significant.

Defense I will give you; if I did my math right, it's going to start out +1 and eventually become a +3 lead by 20/0. +4ish at 20/10 and +5-6 at 20/20.

Same could apply to his Speed. But that proves my point; they shouldn't be a tier apart.

Start out the same = base Defense. Silly.

Don't forget MUCH more HP/def. And again, they probably won't. Castor REALLY wants some time as fighter, because he sorely needs HP.

Much more HP = 10 HP. Darros' HP isn't even that high.

And that's all he needs. He hits the speed requirement to double most things, and that's all that matters. For the mamkutes, he shouldn't even need to double since wyrmslayers exist.

Growing once every five levels, he'll have 14 Speed by Level 20. As a Mercenary too, he has even poorer speed with all the other classes (aside from Hunter, which has poor base speed).

Castor's speed grows roughly once every three levels. By level 20, as a Merc, he'll have 17 Speed. That's much more.

I somehow doubt this is the speed requirement, especially when he has 15-16 in the later parts of the game.

How in the name of christ does an irrelevant AS lead beat out a significant durability lead?

Irrelevant? A 15% lead in Speed is about as irrelevant as the 15% lead Darros has in Defense.

[Dat Nick]

It's four points of HP by 20/20. It won't stack up too much especially since HP is the type of stat where a difference of three or four isn't significant.

20/15.

Also, 4 HP>nothing. The AS lead is equivalent to nothing.

Defense I will give you; if I did my math right, it's going to start out +1 and eventually become a +3 lead by 20/0. +4ish at 20/10 and +5-6 at 20/20.

5ish at 20/15, we'll say. That's a very significant durability win. Compare that to Castor's irrelevant AS lead.

Much more HP = 10 HP. Darros' HP isn't even that high.

It's higher than Kashim's.

Growing once every five levels, he'll have 14 Speed by Level 20. As a Mercenary too, he has even poorer speed with all the other classes (aside from Hunter, which has poor base speed).

Except his speed isn't poor at all because he's still doing fine in the doubling department.

Castor's speed grows roughly once every three levels. By level 20, as a Merc, he'll have 17 Speed. That's much more.

Too bad nobody cares because Darros is still doubling pretty much everything.

I somehow doubt this is the speed requirement, especially when he has 15-16 in the later parts of the game.

19 Endgame. That's juuuust enough.

rrelevant? A 15% lead in Speed is about as irrelevant as the 15% lead Darros has in Defense.

Except it isn't because the defense actually matters.

Okay, layman's terms.

The defense matters because it's letting Darros live longer. The AS doesn't matter because Darros is still doubling everything. It's that simple.

Even if it's 1 HP, the durability still matters more.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

20/15.

3 points.

Also, 4 HP>nothing. The AS lead is equivalent to nothing.

Nothing = nothing. The 4 HP is just about as irrelevant, if anything still a minor lead at best.

It's higher than Kashim's.

Not enough to matter.

19 Endgame. That's juuuust enough.

You make it sound like it's barely enough. If that is the case (which I heavily think it is), then Kashim's consistently doubling just about everything as a Mercenary.

Except it isn't because the defense actually matters.

AS matters just as much, especially when one grows it a lot more than the other.

The defense matters because it's letting Darros live longer. The AS doesn't matter because Darros is still doubling everything. It's that simple.

But he's _not_.

(Can someone get the stats of like... every enemy past Chapter 15; the average ones are fine really... because I heavily doubt about 16 Speed after promotion is enough to double).

[Dat Nick]

Nothing = nothing. The 4 HP is just about as irrelevant, if anything still a minor lead at best.

No, it's not. The HP/Def does something. The AS does nothing.

Not enough to matter.

It still matters more than his irrelevant AS lead.

AS matters just as much, especially when one grows it a lot more than the other.

30 AS is just as good as 20 AS when 20 AS doubles everything on the map. So no, in this case, it DOESN'T matter.

But he's _not_.

Yes, he IS.

And chapter 15? That's all mages. We're talking, not even in the double digits.

[Lord Raven]

It still matters more than his irrelevant AS lead.

Wait until we get the numbers before saying this.

30 AS is just as good as 20 AS when 20 AS doubles everything on the map. So no, in this case, it DOESN'T matter.

Except this is like 20 vs 15 not 30 vs 20.

And chapter 15? That's all mages. We're talking, not even in the double digits.

Chapter 15 onwards.

[Dat Nick]

The highest non mamkute AS you're EVER going to see is 15. Daros is getting 19. There's your numbers.

[Lord Raven]

Darros is getting 19 at the very end of the game. Throughout, he'll start decent (11) and then it will lag until he gets a lot more level ups. Kashim doesn't have this problem; he has decent AS from start to finish, where Darros hits a rough spot around the late early game and the mid game.

[Rodykitty]

Enemies aren't going to have 15 AS throughout the whole game.

[Dat Nick]

Throughout, he'll start decent (11)

At that point, 11 is GREAT, not decent.

Also, he has plenty of time. You'd be amazed how far 11 AS carries him. It's probably enough to double the pegs.

Speaking of pegs, did I mention pegs in C22 have lol13 AS?

By the way, you should know that I just checked chapter 9, and 11 spd...is doubling everything there. Boss included.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Seph]

it's lolNM. Are you really going to need physic that much?

Cleric Maric just doesn't have enough move to catch up to your other units while charging. That's 5 move. 5. Your other units have 6, 7 or more. He can't gain enough exp. The only way to gain exp is Physic. But you'll be wasting it. Good job.

[Dat Nick]

And I just said: It's lolNM. You really don't need physic that badly.

Also, this move thing is hugely exaggerated. It's a one, two move loss. Merric also doesn't have to slow down to deal with enemy units. He's doing fine. He's even going to be healing Abel/Cain every now and then, some units might even have to move to HIM to be healed in emergencies.

And since we're talking about the earlygame, before your units are going lolh4x, this is going to happen more than you think, EVEN on lolNM.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Seph]

The whole point of a fucking tier list is to finish as efficiently as possible. You're denying that. By using Physic for not training a unit you finish more efficiently.

Also, this move thing is hugely exaggerated. It's a one, two move loss. Merric also doesn't have to slow down to deal with enemy units. He's doing fine. He's even going to be healing Abel/Cain every now and then, some units might even have to move to HIM to be healed in emergencies.

Which is big. Mage Merric has 6 move and he can attack from range. Cleric Merric has 5 move.. he can't catch up.

[dondon151]

The whole point of a fucking tier list is to finish as efficiently as possible. You're denying that. By using Physic for not training a unit you finish more efficiently.

Good luck being efficient by having your units die because healing them is inefficient or by wasting player phases with vulneraries.

[slax]

I was talking about Wendell, not Merric. On H5, Wendell is useful until he is replaced by better promoted Sages.

He's still usable, he's just not as high on the tier list, obviously.

*rereads*, oh you did mention Wendell two posts before. I was talking about Merric. -ie: Even though Wendell may be useful in H5, Merric has only 7 def and <50 HP, so Merric doesn't have the tactical flexibility of most other units.

I just assumed since we've been talking about Merric (and I used Merric's averages, wendel has 5 def and less than 30 hp) that he was who we were discussing. Wendell in NM isn't worth recruiting, he's better off being EXP, unless you really want barrier.

He has some advantages to make up for it. Obviously he always has 1-2 range, and with tomes that are better than Javelins and Hand Axes. He is a res tank for fighting Mages (and incidentally enough, on Ch. 15 he can also help OHKO Dracoriders).

Lena is a better res tank. And tomes aren't better than javelins or handaxes if you can't counterattack. Merric can't take more than a few knocks, meaning his range "advantage" is only useful on attack, whereas Javelins, handaxes, can be used both on attack and block, making them very useful, despite being on average weaker. Plus there are more lance wielders than tomes anyway, so you can trade Javelins and attack again. Javelins are like, the most useful weapon in the game in NM (short of warp)

While he may not be as good of a tank, he can still counter attack kill thanks to good HP that will let him survive. This is useful when you consider that he's a ranged hitter, thus during the player phase can attack without taking damage, except against Javelins or Hand Axes, which is what he's good for counter attacking against in the first place (especially since this is NM, and such weapons never get better).

Sure, that's what I said, two units. Then he has to go heal. I was sure I said that already, somewhere. Anyway, this still gives him barely half the combat utility of normal combat troops, who can safely take three units on counterattack and then attack. And they can be healed, while Merric cannot, and if he does get hurt happen, you're either going to be running to a fort, which is obviously a bad tactic, using vulneraries, which means he can't heal, or using other units to protect him, which mean the other units are getting even more combat than they would have otherwise. No matter which way you look at it, the combat troops still come out as more useful than Merric.

He can also use the Warp Staff. That more than makes up for his flaws alone.

And lena actually comes with a warp staff, not to mention the weapon level to be able to use it. But she's over two tiers below him.

Frey also shares EXP with a other combat units that would like to have EXP (while Healers have a less crowded EXP pool), and pouring EXP into Frey himself will slow down EXP gain per kill (while a healer is still gaining decent EXP per staff use).

You don't need to pour exp into frey.

I can't see Frey being level 20 by the time you get your first Master Seal, especially in a playstyle where you're rushing through the game and ignoring opportunities to level up on reinforcements, even if Maric doesn't reach level 20 himself either.

I didn't say 20, I said "could be a paladin" you can 15-6 promote Frey and still have a tank unit in NM.

By the time they both reach level 20, you'll have more than one Master Seal to go around.

See above. But I'm not arguing the availability of Master seals anyway, they're a dime a dozen, I'm saying Merric doesn't grow significantly faster than the rest of the crew. He grows slightly faster at best

Edited December 31, 2008 by slax

[Seph]

Good luck being efficient by having your units die because healing them is inefficient or by wasting player phases with vulneraries.

Merric can't heal much at all. There's nothing I can do about that.

NM is so easy that you don't have to worry about that anyway.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Julius

[Rodykitty]

*rereads*, oh you did mention Wendell two posts before. I was talking about Merric. -ie: Even though Wendell may be useful in H5, Merric has only 7 def and <50 HP, so Merric doesn't have the tactical flexibility of most other units.

I was using Wendell's tactical flexibility as an example of what Merric will be able to do, except Merric will pull it off much better on NM.

Lena is a better res tank.

But worse everywhere else. Merric will still get fairly good Res, and this is NM, where Mages are the most fail overall, so he's definitely going to make use of his Res.

And tomes aren't better than javelins or handaxes if you can't counterattack.

Which he can? He'll be able to counter attack frequently because of having actual durability to do so.

Anyway, this still gives him barely half the combat utility of normal combat troops, who can safely take three units on counterattack and then attack.

Merric is safely taking hits too. He'll be taking more damage, yes, but he's not going to die from NM's enemies, and a secondary healer (which isn't bad to have) can just use a single staff use to recover most of his HP.

I didn't say 20, I said "could be a paladin" you can 15-6 promote Frey and still have a tank unit in NM.

And I can promote Merric as early as I want and immediately solve his problems of movement and inability to attack. Any unit can promote early and have tactical benefits, especially since the endgame level is 20/10 anyway.

And lena actually comes with a warp staff, not to mention the weapon level to be able to use it. But she's over two tiers below him.

You've missed probably every single post I've made where I say she should move up. You need to speak to Beserker Blader on this, not me.

[Dat Nick]

The whole point of a fucking tier list is to finish as efficiently as possible. You're denying that. By using Physic for not training a unit you finish more efficiently.

That's not the point. The point is, lol NM./

NM is so easy that you don't have to worry about that anyway.

So I guess we REALLY don't need physic then. Mirite?

Which is big. Mage Merric has 6 move and he can attack from range. Cleric Merric has 5 move.. he can't catch up.

care to actually explain WHY this one move, two move gap is so epic? ANd you're still ignoring my point about enemy units slowing fighters down.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah