So...let's talk tiers.

[Lord Raven]

o, it's not. Abel can snag a level out of that one mission, bringing him up to a nice AS for that time frame [8] while Cain's 6 base AS struggles to double.

The main difference between their doubling is their ability to double fighters. Other than that, Cain and Abel both can snag enough easy level ups from soldiers and mages that AS won't be such a huge problem for Prologue III. Then Cain starts to basically beat out Abel in the relevant stats. On top of that, Cain deals with Prologue IV just fine after getting a level up or two. Edited January 6, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I gotta side with BB on the Cain vs Abel argument. Don't see how 4 HP and 7 Luck is beating 1 more chapter of availability and a slight level lead...

[Dat Nick]

The main difference between their doubling is their ability to double fighters.

And archers.

Then Cain starts to basically beat out Abel in the relevant stats.

these "relevant stats" consist of 4 HP, at it's PEAK. Javelin use [since weapons take time to level] and a slight level lead+Being better than Cain overall for most of the game>4 HP. He has higher str, but Abel is killing whatever he doubles at that point.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

... actually, I'm looking through vids. NEITHER are doubling Fighters, Abel is NOT one rounding Archers. His Javelin doesn't double and Iron Swords don't have the might.

Abel is not better than Cain for most of the game... Cain's Speed is only one point behind the entire game while Cain will have a strength advantage early on, as well as an HP advantage throughout. Luck is kind of irrelevant.

His level lead is one level and he is doing exactly the same as Cain throughout the entire game. He's not even slightly better considering they both double pretty much everything, and have the ability to kill pretty much everything too. Cain just has that lead in HP; hell even you say that "10% isn't slight" (which I still disagree with anyway) yet you seem to imply that 4 HP is minuscule?

Abel's availability only allows him one more level up anyway. At which point, Cain can VERY easily catch up and excel. They're about equal but Cain has a slight upper hand.

[Dat Nick]

... actually, I'm looking through vids. NEITHER are doubling Fighters, Abel is NOT one rounding Archers. His Javelin doesn't double and Iron Swords don't have the might.

iron lance? Oh yeah, and at lvl 3, the javelin won't even weigh him down anymore, and 1-2 range is nifty.

His level lead is one level

one level>no level

Cain's Speed is only one point behind the entire game

When Cain joins, it's TWO points behind Abel.

He's not even slightly better

Early on? Yes, he is.

10% isn't slight" (which I still disagree with anyway

+4 in stats not named HP>>>>>>+4 in stats named HP.

yet you seem to imply that 4 HP is minuscule?

How ISN'T it minuscule? Does that HP even help?

At which point, Cain can VERY easily catch up and excel.

Excel in what, 4 HP?

[Lord Raven]

iron lance? Oh yeah, and at lvl 3, the javelin won't even weigh him down anymore, and 1-2 range is nifty.

He won't be level 3 when he's going up against the first archer.

one level>no level

Still only one level.

When Cain joins, it's TWO points behind Abel.

No, it's not. At Level 2 it's a 50/50 shot at being 2 higher or 1 higher.

Early on? Yes, he is.

Their performance is more or less the same, though.

+4 in stats not named HP>>>>>>+4 in stats named HP.

Yet... +4 HP > breaking even in everything but Skill.

How ISN'T it minuscule? Does that HP even help?

Technically yes because it allows him to survive more shots.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. He won't be level 3 when he's going up against the first archer.

2. Still only one level.

3. No, it's not. At Level 2 it's a 50/50 shot at being 2 higher or 1 higher.

4. Their performance is more or less the same, though.

5. Yet... +4 HP > breaking even in everything but Skill.

6. Technically yes because it allows him to survive more shots.

1. It's often possible for him to be level 3 (assuming you're talking about Prologue 3, where Cain joins).

2. mmhmm, kinda like how Cain's HP lead is only 4 which is pretty insignificant since by the time this happens, you'll be in the late game and will hardly see a fighter's HP go below 10... or half for that matter.

3. Yup. Doesn't help you though.

4. Where is Cain in Prologue 2? Why does Cain need some1 to weaken the enemy for him? Why is Cain stuck with direct attacks when he starts out?

5. Not denying that one, the Skill stat sucks ass. Still... THE LEAD IS PRETTY INSIGNIFICANT.

6. It does? Okay, yeah but how often though? What are the chances that this 4 HP will keep him alive? The chances are just too slim dude... it'd work if Cain and Abel were pretty much the same and came in the same chapter but they don't.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Levin

[Dat Nick]

He won't be level 3 when he's going up against the first archer.

I never said he would.

And yes. The HP is why Cain>Abel in HM. Not NM, since the level lead and javelin use actually matters there.

[Lord Raven]

"Level 3 is what he needs before he can use a Javelin without AS" well he can't one round the Archer unless he takes an Iron Lance from someone else or is Level 3. The former can happen, the latter is not guaranteed. I'm talking about the Prologue III Archer by the way.

1. It's often possible for him to be level 3 (assuming you're talking about Prologue 3, where Cain joins).

If you ignore Marth and Frey altogether, then yes. But Abel isn't entitled to all of the EXP.

4. Where is Cain in Prologue 2? Why does Cain need some1 to weaken the enemy for him? Why is Cain stuck with direct attacks when he starts out?

Cain doesn't need anyone to weaken enemies for him. He comes in with 7 Strength and can easily do a direct attack with a lance and double every enemy and kill. It's not like the Javelin lead with Abel means much - Abel loses AS at base level to the Javelin. And it's not hard to get from E -> D to begin with especially since Abel and Cain both rape the shit out of the Prologue.

5. Not denying that one, the Skill stat sucks ass. Still... THE LEAD IS PRETTY INSIGNIFICANT.

So is a level lead of 1 where you're not even guaranteed a speed, strength, or whatever else stat up on the first level up. You're never guaranteed one, but the averages don't fully reflect a strength up (although, 50ish% chance of getting just one strength up by level 3 is pretty hot).

After the Prologue, neither can reliably double for a couple chapters. And both start to double around the same time, reliably. Cain just has a slight lead over Abel in HP (while Abel has a lead in availability and level at the very, very, very beginning, and even then the latter is negligible).

[Mekkah]

Wow, are you guys seriously arguing about this?

Why is Ricardo in Upper Mid and Julian in High? They're both combat failures, and if you'd ask me, they're both useless overall after Marth gets the Fire Emblem, which is forced on him, and he's forced onto every map.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. If you ignore Marth and Frey altogether, then yes. But Abel isn't entitled to all of the EXP.

2. Cain doesn't need anyone to weaken enemies for him. He comes in with 7 Strength and can easily do a direct attack with a lance and double every enemy and kill. It's not like the Javelin lead with Abel means much - Abel loses AS at base level to the Javelin. And it's not hard to get from E -> D to begin with especially since Abel and Cain both rape the shit out of the Prologue.

3. So is a level lead of 1 where you're not even guaranteed a speed, strength, or whatever else stat up on the first level up. You're never guaranteed one, but the averages don't fully reflect a strength up (although, 50ish% chance of getting just one strength up by level 3 is pretty hot).

4. After the Prologue, neither can reliably double for a couple chapters. And both start to double around the same time, reliably. Cain just has a slight lead over Abel in HP (while Abel has a lead in availability and level at the very, very, very beginning, and even then the latter is negligible).

1. Hmm, mistake on my part.

2. That's only the case with Soldiers and prologue 3. In Prologue 4, Abel is likely level 3 with a good chance at 8 SPD and 7 STR, which results in him doubling anything even with the Javelin. Cain could only double the 3 soldiers at the end. Clearly, Abel's doing better than Cain in the earlier chapters due to that so-called "insignificant level lead" while they end up being the same later (with the noted 4 HP and 7 LUCK lead that Cain gets on Abel in the end), throughout the game they're both pretty much the same but Abel's winning in availability by 1 chapter, a slight level lead and a good chance at better performance in the first chapters.

3. No, not really. 4 HP is more negligible than Abel's leads which you have yet to prove otherwise. All you've been doing is trying to make their leads equivalent and they're not. Abel's lead happens in the beginning, where a difference is notable. Cain's lead comes late, where it's quite negligible because by the time it happens, Cain isn't taking so much damage for that stupid HP lead to matter.

4. Abel's 1 SPD lead (possibly 2 due to his level lead) means he's more likely to double earlier than Cain and this SPD lead is there even AFTER promotion. It isn't negligible in the beginning.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Levin

[Dat Nick]

well he can't one round the Archer unless he takes an Iron Lance from someone else or is Level 3. The former can happen, the latter is not guaranteed. I'm talking about the Prologue III Archer by the way.

Cain doesn't mind losing the lance since it's not going to help him very much. It's a difference of one damage that won't help him one bit on anything he doesn't double.

You're never guaranteed one, but the averages don't fully reflect a strength up (although, 50ish% chance of getting just one strength up by level 3 is pretty hot).

Going by averages, Abel gets 7.5 speed on his first level up. That rounds up to 8. 8 AS>>>6.

4. After the Prologue, neither can reliably double for a couple chapters.

By the time the prolouge is over, Abel has 9 AS, Cain has...7, that sound about right? 9 AS should double the pirates in C1. 7 AS won't. Also, Abel gets to double faster than Cain, and guess what? In chapter 1, he no longer loses AS from the javelin.

[dondon151]

Going by averages, Abel gets 7.5 speed on his first level up. That rounds up to 8. 8 AS>>>6.

I'd just like to point out that statistically, this assumption is completely fallacious.

Abel doubling half the time is better than Kain doubling none of the time, however (that is, if that's true; if not then just ignore me).

[Lord Raven]

What are the Pirate's stats in Chapter 1?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

*Checks*

I see 5 AS on All pirates. 6 On the thief and Hunter and 5 on Gazzack.

Want me to check chapter 2?

Edited January 7, 2009 by Levin

[slax]

Try 3.

Lena cleric-> bishop = 5 average. Merric =6.9 That's not 3.

Lena mage-> sage = 5 average. Merric=6.9 That's not 3.

Merric as cleric-> mage will have 7.8 That's barely 3, but for a 7 point magic disadvatage on Lena as a mage sage, if you want to assume "best case" -that very nearly negates his doubling. 12 -res x2 could easily be lower than a straight out 19. Especially on paladins with 6 res.

SEEMED to be doing. Try reading the whole thing next time.

Try readying MY whole thing. You said I "seemed to be doing it" when in fact I'd already clarified TWICE that it wasn't what I'd been doing, yet you still brought it up. Somehow I'm in the wrong. Lol.

I can't think of many instances where this would help you. Marth is liable to get owned by the enemies that swarm him in C4 if you warp him there, and C5's village doesn't hold anything good.

What, you're going to be getting Merric up to a C weapon level in Map 4? Ok, fine, but my arena-abused Marth is going to warp-rush all the maps then. Come on, babying much? Be realistic here. A C weapon level is going to take more like 3 chapters to get. Starting from Ch5, which is where you get the class change, Ch6 will almost demand a warp to block off the thief's exit 6x is villageable, especially with a level 10 myrmidon (useable) supporting Marth. Coastal skirmish can be one-turn'ed by marth... That's 3 uses before Merric even has the weapon useable.

And Merric needs 15 uses before he can use Mend himself.

And 15 uses is going to be about 2-3 chapters later, since there are so few enemies and you need to class change Merric anyway.

When the difference in that speed is the difference between doubling and not doubling, yes, it is.

As I said above, even the doubling doesn't make a huge difference, given the lead lena will have in Magic and Res. Those two just about negate each other. I still see HP as being the only undeniable advantage Merric has.

Anybody worth their salt can one round shooters, and past C13, they're kinda rare anyway.

Mind telling me how you're going to reach said ballista with the unit when there are three paladins, a dragoon a hero a mage or two and a manakete in between? While you figure that out, say bye-bye to all your low defence troops, since Pachyderm will deal a shitload of damage to them, even on NM. [/sarcasm] Come on man, put some effort into this.

....It's a six might difference. 6 mt isn't going to make Jake magically go from not OHKing to OHKing. Also, they need all the accuracy they can get, so I would actually say Hoistflame is better than Pacyderm.

That's the difference between, say, 8 damage and 14 damage. 8 is stuff all. 14 is useful. And yes, hoistflame IS more useful against low level enemies, but the loss of attack power makes it almost strictly inferior to pachyderm in the lategame. 20 accuracy isn't much, even for a ballista. -unless you've actually used a ballista and can tell me otherwise? (I have used a ballista in all of my playthroughs, and it really doesn't)

How is going from one rounding everything on the map to one rounding everything on the map a useful upgrade? 300000 atk is no better than 32 when 32 kills everything.

Because he'll be hit in the counterattack. Why must I state the blindingly obvious? Merric does not OHKO, he two hit OK's.

I dunno.

Well I do, and as Levin said, it's around 30. Lena = OHKO.

No, actually. Tiki tends to make the game harder than it really is, because she's annoying to train and isn't really worth it, even with infinite dragonstone uses.

I was talking about Forged items. Why would cash have anything to do with Dragonstones? I know dragonstones aren't that useful, I was just putting it out there.

Enemy attack seriously blows in this game. You really shouldn't be burning through fortify uses that quickly at all.

Seriously? The final chapter WILL deal SIGNIFICANT damage to your troops, you can't just assume this away. (unless warp rushing, in which case you need two support mages anyway, Lena more than likely will be one of them). Using Gotoh to heal Merric and Lena to heal Gotoh via fortify (since the ballista, will, unless you've hammerned & thunderbolted, target the crap out of him) or using Lena to heal Merric or using Lena to heal normal troops, is going to burn your staves in about 10 turns (since you can't get gotoh's to Lena unless you've put them both with Marth, which is stupid since they'll be in range of enemies there. Unless you Hammerne. and don't tell me you are planning on finishing this chapter in under 10 turns without warp rushing. That would be ridiculously lucky.

At that point in the game, where your characters are struggling to double lol archers, and Abel has a significant lead on Cain? Yes, it does. Abel is significantly better for the prolouge.

You've got to be kidding, right? How on earth is ANYTHING in the prolouge hard to kill? As a matter of fact, in Prologue 3 the ONLY units with 3 speed (ie: enough to be doubelled by Abel but not cain) are mages, who should be getting pwned anyway. (though I didn't check weight- but in weight cain and Frey > Abel since abel has less str, and this actually negates his speed bonus if using the javelin anyway, since he's the only unit with less than 7 str.) Remind me again how it's relevant?

Too bad the HP lead is barely relevant and the luck lead is irrelevant. It's so irrelevant that Abel's slightly better earlygame>4 HP. That's on a totally diffrent level from taking a lot more hits on the front line and not being reliant on a tome to kill things, if she can even kill things with it.

It's about as irrelevant as Abel's one speed advantage.

...Weapons and staves do NOT level up the same way. All staves give 2 WEXP, so Merric needs 15 uses, but Cain needs 30, minus one for every time he doubles/kills something. He'll also want to switch to swords for the WTA early on.

So? you don't get anywhere near the opportunity to use staves as you do lances. 30 uses is easy as to get (especially with counterattacks) While babying Merric will barely get him 15 uses with a stave in two or three missions (including class change), getting 30 lances is basically the same.

No, it's not. Abel can snag a level out of that one mission, bringing him up to a nice AS for that time frame [8] while Cain's 6 base AS struggles to double.

But Abel STILL only has a 1 advantage since the weight of the Javelin is higher than his strength. It should be going to Frey, who should be getting that one level before Abel. The other level should go to Marth. Realistically it's not a 1 level advantage, it's more like a 40-60 exp advantage, which is absolutely stuff all. Unless you're babying him, but your personal preference should have nothing to do with a tier list.

Except they AREN'T exactly the same.

*facepalm* taking things out of context doesn't help your argument.

Merric will be owning Lena in stats no matter how many levels Lena got. Lena's AS sucks. Merric's AS does not. Merric's HP lead is actually relevant.

That's two things. You're still telling me that those two stats alone make Merric better than every unit in the game, while lena should barely even be used (since there are over 15 people who are better than her)

Cain has...4 HP. That's it.

Now then think about what I'm actually saying. You've given Merric a two tier gap over lena. I'm asking for it to be smaller. Cain is ONE spot lower than Abel. Moving one spot obviously takes smaller jumps than two tiers. Even if the lead is small, an advantage is an advantage, since we're considering only a movement of one spot, not the 17 odd that Lena has to move. Don't take what I said out of context.

It IS irrelevant. Merric's HP lead actually matters since he can take two more shots from enemy units. 4 HP lead doesn't equate to an extra hit or even close.

Yes, in actual gameplay it IS, but in making a tier list it isn't. If one unit can have strictly better averages than another, have very very near to the same utility and be lower on the tier list, then how can I trust the list? Right now you're saying "Abel is better because he has better speed when he joins"-which is irrelevant, due to not low Str. Then you say "cain's HP advantage is irrelevant" -why make the distinction? Cain has better strength than Abel, this more than makes up for the loss of 1 measly speed point, while having strictly better averages is still relevant to the list.

Cain's lower speed is at a time where it actually matters. Merric is a healer who isn't getting doubled, so his speed loss doesn't matter.

Abel's one speed makes no difference. Merric as a mage will have 2 lower speed than Lena as a mage, at the same point in time. It won't be until level 11 that Merric will overtake her. Why would a healer's speed make any difference? Shouldn't that be blindingly obvious?

For a weapon that goes up slower than staves.

Hardly, think this, how do staves work? by healing people. How do people get hurt? By attacking. That's one attack AND one counterattack PER heal use, even assuming no doubles "going up slower" will only apply if you simply don't use the lance wielder, but then you're just playing favourites.

That one chapter allows Abel to get a good lead over Cain. Two chapters don't allow Lena to get a head start on Merric, because his bases are still mostly better than Lena, and Lena's growths suck.

It does not allow Abel to get "a good lead" over cain, since the one level should not go to him, it should go to Marth and to Frey, who need and benefit from it more than Abel. He "should" have about a 40-60 exp lead, hardly significant. Lena on the other hand will be, without favouritism, around level 5, by level 5, making her a mage to equivocate the two and this is what you get, she leads by 1.7 Mag, 3.5 skill, 1.6 speed & 6.3 luck, for the loss of 5.3 HP, on a level 3 merric, who could still easily be level 1 by that time. I'd call that a much more significant lead.

She's in Upper-Mid Tier. How is that not usable?

For the third freaking time, Lena gets almost nothing out of a level lead. She could get every single EXP point before Merric comes, and Merric would still be better at base level.

*facepalm* read my posts. When you come up with a reply that doesn't scream "I completely missed the point" I'll reply.

[Rodykitty]

*facepalm* read my posts. When you come up with a reply that doesn't scream "I completely missed the point" I'll reply.

You're saying that Lena is usable, and look, the tier list agrees. If people actually are trying to say she's unusable, she would be in bottom tier.

Also, I'm countering your EXP lead point you're making. Her EXP lead is not going to do much for her.

[Lord Raven]

*Checks*

I see 5 AS on All pirates. 6 On the thief and Hunter and 5 on Gazzack.

Want me to check chapter 2?

Abel needs another level up to double them. Hmm.

I think Chapter 2 is like 6 AS since I vaguely recall some early game pirates having 6 AS. In which case, everybody's having a hard time with them.

And I'm still curious to hear your thoughts on opportunity cost.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Abel needs another level up to double them. Hmm.

I think Chapter 2 is like 6 AS since I vaguely recall some early game pirates having 6 AS. In which case, everybody's having a hard time with them.

*Checks*

I spy...

Pirates & Thieves: 5 AS

Hunters, Castor and Cavaliers: 6 AS

Gomer (Boss): 9 AS

What you're recalling is probably that 6 SPD stat you see on the stat screen without looking at the fact they have 5 STR and wield Iron Axes (which results in 1 AS loss).

Edited January 7, 2009 by Levin

[Dat Nick]

Try readying MY whole thing. You said I "seemed to be doing it" when in fact I'd already clarified TWICE that it wasn't what I'd been doing, yet you still brought it up. Somehow I'm in the wrong. Lol.

The hell is your problem? I just said it seemed like you were arguing that her starting inventory mattered, and I had already realized that wasn't what you were saying. ctfd, seriously

Lena cleric-> bishop = 5 average. Merric =6.9 That's not 3.

Lena mage-> sage = 5 average. Merric=6.9 That's not 3.

Merric at about 20/15: 8 def. That's 3. And since his class is awesome, he has a very good chance at hitting max level.

What, you're going to be getting Merric up to a C weapon level in Map 4?

...When did I say Merric would be the one using it? The point is that Warp, when Lena is the only one who can use it, doesn't provide much benefit.

Ok, fine, but my arena-abused Marth is going to warp-rush all the maps then.

Arena abuse=fail

Be realistic here. A C weapon level is going to take more like 3 chapters to get.

I, uh, NEVER said that Merric was hitting C that quickly.

6x is villageable, especially with a level 10 myrmidon

...You can totally let them raid that village if you have no intention of using Athena, and I never had to use a warp staff for it anyway.

That's 3 uses before Merric even has the weapon useable.

...Two. You counted two.

As I said above, even the doubling doesn't make a huge difference, given the lead lena will have in Magic and Res.

...No, it doesn't. Lena is relying on a tome that she can't repair until C20 for offense. Merric can own with everything, and I just told you the res lead is pointless since Merric already res tanks well.

And NO, it is NOT the only advantage he has. He is not dependent on limited use tomes to kill things.

Mind telling me how you're going to reach said ballista with the unit when there are three paladins, a dragoon a hero a mage or two and a manakete in between?

Dragonknight Catria flies over to ballista. Dragonknight catria nukes said ballista with steel. Other enemies run towards dragonknight catria. Dragonknight Catria tinks and kills because she has w1n defense [taking about two or seven damage, tops, even if she just freshly promoted]

That's the difference between, say, 8 damage and 14 damage. 8 is stuff all. 14 is useful.

And you're going to finish off the target no matter which one is dealt.

Because he'll be hit in the counterattack. Why must I state the blindingly obvious? Merric does not OHKO, he two hit OK's.

...Um, he's ONLY going to need to crit if you attack at melee [which is really unreliable]. Why the hell would anybody do that? Also, if he gets attacked by enemy phase, the ONLY time he should be attacking at melee range, it doesn't matter if he crits or not, because he's still eating the attack.

Well I do, and as Levin said, it's around 30. Lena = OHKO.

Lena's still 100% dependent on it and can't do anything to repair it until C20. Those 30 uses run out fast, especially when it's your only method of one rounding.

Seriously? The final chapter WILL deal SIGNIFICANT damage to your troops, you can't just assume this away

Yes, I CAN assume this away. Merric warps a guy with forged dragonkiller to mamkute in front of medeus. Somebody else warps Nagi over to Medeus. Nagi suicides on Medeus. Marth whips out Falchion, GG medeus. Getting the chapter over with in one turn in a game where turncount is your only ranking>>>>>>Sweating it out in several.

You've got to be kidding, right? How on earth is ANYTHING in the prolouge hard to kill?

Moreso chapter 1. Abel doubles. Cain doesn't. 9 AS>>>7

It's about as irrelevant as Abel's one speed advantage.

Two speed. He levels up before Cain exists.

I was talking about Forged items. Why would cash have anything to do with Dragonstones?

When I say "not worth it", I'm referring to the time and effort it takes training her.

So? you don't get anywhere near the opportunity to use staves as you do lances. 30 uses is easy as to get (especially with counterattacks)

Unless Cain goes Rambo and solos the whole map? No, it's not.

But Abel STILL only has a 1 advantage since the weight of the Javelin is higher than his strength.

Then he doesn't use the javelin. ....That was easy.

Unless you're babying him, but your personal preference should have nothing to do with a tier list.

Um, what? Killing three enemies on his own is not "babying".

It should be going to Frey, who should be getting that one level before Abel.

THIS is babying.

who need and benefit from it more than Abel

...No? Spewing out that Marth and Frey benefit more from it is one thing [their growth rates are pratically the same for the love of crap], but claming that they NEED it more? Marth just gained two levels last chapter. Why the hell does he need more? You're the one playing favorites by saying that Frey gets those levels over Abel.

How do people get hurt? By attacking.

Cain attacks something, Abel attacks something. Both get hurt, neither killed, so they gained one EXP with their weapon.

Merric heals both. Merric gained four WEXP, more than Cain and Abel combined. Even if both of them kill, Merric still got more WEXP than either.

by level 5, making her a mage to equivocate the two and this is what you get, she leads by 1.7 Mag, 3.5 skill, 1.6 speed & 6.3 luck, for the loss of 5.3 HP, on a level 3 merric, who could still easily be level 1 by that time. I'd call that a much more significant lead.

....No? The skill lead doesn't matter [i don't know WHY you even bought it up], Merric won't get doubled so the speed lead doesn't matter, the luck lead REALLY doesn't matter, and the magic is one more HP healed, lol. Better durability, at a time when 5 HP is actually significant>>>>>Lena's "leads". Little trivia, enemies still have high hit on Lena with her WONDERFUL 5 avo lead over Merric, and with a confirmed 2 RN system, those high hit rates you see on her are HIGHER than displayed. That avo lead does absolutely nothing for her. If it turned into Rutger, you would have a point.

Oh, and you forgot defense. Before you even say it, just 2 def alone>>>>Lena's other stats.

Abel needs another level up to double them. Hmm.

No, he doesn't. He'll easily be level four by the prolouge ends.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[Lord Raven]

I think part of it is also how much my RNG hates my speed stats on Cain and Abel right now. 10ish at Level 10 awesome... and the last two or so were gotten in the last two level ups.

Also Draug as a Hunter is awesome. He gets decent Strength and Speed on his bases although his defenses will be total ass.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I think part of it is also how much my RNG hates my speed stats on Cain and Abel right now. 10ish at Level 10 awesome... and the last two or so were gotten in the last two level ups.

Also Draug as a Hunter is awesome. He gets decent Strength and Speed on his bases although his defenses will be total ass.

It happens. Just swap them to archer for 70% SPD growth and that should fix it pretty soon. Anyway, need more reason why Abel > Cain in NM even though it's just because of a slight lead?

Question (may be off-topic), has any1 bothered noting something like "Samsom > Alan because he gives you another Hero spot"?

Edited January 7, 2009 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

Question (may be off-topic), has any1 bothered noting something like "Samsom > Alan because he gives you another Hero spot"?

The penalty for taking hero is there and is indeed lessened by not taking an existing a hero slot, but like pointed out earlier it's negated by his join time and units already being trained.

And I think Samson is better than Alan even without that taken into account. He's statistically better and I can see him having a bit more long term utility than Alan. He can also be used as a Devil Axer.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The penalty for taking hero is there and is indeed lessened by not taking an existing a hero slot, but like pointed out earlier it's negated by his join time and units already being trained.

That's the thing though, there should be no penalty nor plus or anything of that sort at all in this matter. You get that Merc spot even if you don't recruit him, the village gets raided by the thief or if you recruited Arran.

[Rodykitty]

The penalty is there. It's how large the penalty that matters, and it's pretty miniscule with many factors considered.

You get the Merc slot even if you recruit Arran? That's definitely a benefit for Arran then, since he doesn't take up a Merc slot.