So...let's talk tiers.

[Dat Nick]

Arran is still awful though [3rd worst Paladin in the game, just behind Jeigan and Medea]. He's lucky for that, because that could have sent him a few slots down, and he's already in bottom tier.

I could have seen that boosting Samson up juuust a little, but he's fine where he is if you really do get the slot even if you get Arran.

[slax]

The hell is your problem? I just said it seemed like you were arguing that her starting inventory mattered, and I had already realized that wasn't what you were saying. ctfd, seriously

My problem is people saying left right and centre that I can't read, based on quotes that they themselves misread.

Merric at about 20/15: 8 def. That's 3. And since his class is awesome, he has a very good chance at hitting max level.

Based on what averages? Or are you going by personal experience, if you are I'm just going to stop arguing right here and now because that would dash any and all confidence I have in you as a tier writer.

...When did I say Merric would be the one using it? The point is that Warp, when Lena is the only one who can use it, doesn't provide much benefit.

You don't need to say Merric will be using it. The tier list does that for you. Merric is higher tier, Merric gets more use out of the EXP, therefore, Merric takes priority over Lena whenever possible and practical. Therefore the only time Lena should take preference over Merric is when Merric can't use the staff for whatever reason.

Arena abuse=fail

I, uh, NEVER said that Merric was hitting C that quickly.

"Marth is liable to get owned by the enemies that swarm him in C4 if you warp him there, and C5's village doesn't hold anything good." You went to one chapter, thus implying that after that one chapter Lena's warp utility somehow drops to a point where it is not worth mentioning. Simple logic, if Lena's utility is dropping, something must make it drop, and the only thing that can make it drop is Merric, since he is the only viable Staff user according to this tier list, as everyone else's opp. cost. is too high/weapon level too low.

...You can totally let them raid that village if you have no intention of using Athena, and I never had to use a warp staff for it anyway.

You CAN but then you'd be going against your own tier list, which states Athena > Lena. Sure you don't NEED to warp for it, but you don't NEED to warp for ANYTHING in this game. It just makes it a hellava lot faster, easier and more efficient.

...Two. You counted two.

Count again. I stated 3 chapters.

...No, it doesn't. Lena is relying on a tome that she can't repair until C20 for offense. Merric can own with everything, and I just told you the res lead is pointless since Merric already res tanks well.

And NO, it is NOT the only advantage he has. He is not dependent on limited use tomes to kill things.

Tell me how Lena "relies" on this one tome in any way that disadvantages her. I'd like to see some facts backing this up, and taking into account hammerene and the 30 uses on Aura. And do you also mind telling me where I said this was Merric's only advantage, I simply said how this counteracts his advantage, not that this was his only advantage, nor that this completely negates the advantage. I don't even know why you put that second sentence in there.

Dragonknight Catria flies over to ballista. Dragonknight catria nukes said ballista with steel. Other enemies run towards dragonknight catria. Dragonknight Catria tinks and kills because she has w1n defense [taking about two or seven damage, tops, even if she just freshly promoted]

Yep, Catria can certain reach a ballista on the final mission, its a good thing you've got that aum staff to bring her back, the strategy you just listed will almost 100% guarantee she dies.

And you're going to finish off the target no matter which one is dealt.

No, you're not. You really really aren't. See I can do it too, making claims without any facts whatsoever behind them, it's quite fun too.

...Um, he's ONLY going to need to crit if you attack at melee [which is really unreliable]. Why the hell would anybody do that? Also, if he gets attacked by enemy phase, the ONLY time he should be attacking at melee range, it doesn't matter if he crits or not, because he's still eating the attack.

Crits? Well, given that you've just written a paragraph on them, I suppose I should acknowledge that what you said had NOTHING to do with what I wrote at all. What I said was that Merric doesn't OHKO opponents, he two-hits them. Thus Lena with Aura, or giving Merric an excalibur to take out dragoons with JAVELINS (as many of them do lategame) is better than Merric with a standard tome, thus Lena see use either way, one via hammeren, one via aura.

Lena's still 100% dependent on it and can't do anything to repair it until C20. Those 30 uses run out fast, especially when it's your only method of one rounding.

Lena shouldn't be being used as an attack unit as frequently as that. Sure, if you WANT her to die, that's a good way of doing it, but with 30 uses, taking out a strong unit every now and then, res tanking mages and healing makes her pretty viable throughout the whole game, if Aura breaks, she is NOT screwed, she will still hit for a ton of damage. I fail to see how she's 100% dependent on ANYTHING, let alone Aura.

Yes, I CAN assume this away. Merric warps a guy with forged dragonkiller to mamkute in front of medeus. Somebody else warps Nagi over to Medeus. Nagi suicides on Medeus. Marth whips out Falchion, GG medeus. Getting the chapter over with in one turn in a game where turncount is your only ranking>>>>>>Sweating it out in several.

Who else warps? Lena. Case closed. Or better still, don't kill nagi, give Marth a speedwing so he can OHKO medeus, nagi (or anyone) takes out the manakete infront of him. Almost a guaranteed one-turn kill, without sacrificng units. Is that really the best strategy you can come up with? Either way, you're using Lena in the final mission no less, to one turn kill no less.

Moreso chapter 1. Abel doubles. Cain doesn't. 9 AS>>>7

9? lol you just failed at stats. Let me tell you a little fact. 50% =/= 100%. that is all.

Two speed. He levels up before Cain exists.

Not according to your list, Frey should be getting it.

When I say "not worth it", I'm referring to the time and effort it takes training her.

And you're still completely ignoring the fact that I'm talking about FORGED WEAPONS. Dragonstones I included because you CAN use hammerene on them, and it would be a good return IF you're using tiki. I never said Tiki was actually good.

Unless Cain goes Rambo and solos the whole map? No, it's not.

Meh, exaggerate all you want, it's still feasible.

Then he doesn't use the javelin. ....That was easy.

so we're in agreement then, Abel gets no advanatage out of his + in weapon level? Thank you.

Um, what? Killing three enemies on his own is not "babying".

THIS is babying.

Your tier list puts Frey above Able, thus Frey returns greater utility, according to YOUR list, than Abel, thus Frey is a better EXP investment according to YOUR list. Remind me how I'm babying?

...No? Spewing out that Marth and Frey benefit more from it is one thing [their growth rates are pratically the same for the love of crap], but claming that they NEED it more? Marth just gained two levels last chapter. Why the hell does he need more? You're the one playing favorites by saying that Frey gets those levels over Abel.

See above, its your logic, not mine, that was being used. Marth always needs EXP since he's the best warp-rush unit, over-levelling him returns much more proportional return per level than any other character, since he can seize & rapier.

Cain attacks something, Abel attacks something. Both get hurt, neither killed, so they gained one EXP with their weapon.

Then get counterattacked, and gain one more weapon EXP, unless they dual, either way 2 weapon exp.

Merric heals both.

over two turns, giving both of 'em time to attack again, and get counterattacked, or dual. -unless they go after Merric, in which case he has to run off to a fort or he'll die, if he's not dead already. Or you could NOT attack, and baby Merric, but again, that's obvious babying, and irrelevant to a tier list.

Merric gained four WEXP, more than Cain and Abel combined. Even if both of them kill, Merric still got more WEXP than either.

Then they kill, given they've had 3 turn to do this, giving MORE AGAIN to Cain or Abel. I'm up to about 8 or 9 WEXP, you're on about 4. Remind me again how this works?

....No? The skill lead doesn't matter [i don't know WHY you even bought it up], Merric won't get doubled so the speed lead doesn't matter, the luck lead REALLY doesn't matter, and the magic is one more HP healed, lol. Better durability, at a time when 5 HP is actually significant>>>>>Lena's "leads". Little trivia, enemies still have high hit on Lena with her WONDERFUL 5 avo lead over Merric, and with a confirmed 2 RN system, those high hit rates you see on her are HIGHER than displayed. That avo lead does absolutely nothing for her. If it turned into Rutger, you would have a point.

If Lena can be killed, Merric can be killed, since no-one is going to deal over, say, 17 damage, but under 20 to one shot her but not Merric. That extra 5 hp will not save merric by any significant margin. This is, of course, unless you're letting your healers get attacked by two units per turn, in which case your strategy would have to be so god-awful, you need to read a walkthrough, not a tier list.

Oh, and you forgot defense. Before you even say it, just 2 def alone>>>>Lena's other stats.

2def doesn't mean crap. 6 might on the pachyderm is WAY more relevant, and you've already handwaved that. Twice.

[Rodykitty]

Tier lists do not give characters priority over others, they only say who is better. This is assuming characters are getting a fair share of EXP during the time they are available and are assumed to be used.

Despite Frey being a slot higher than Abel, he doesn't have priority in getting EXP. Both he and Abel want to level up. Now, I don't know all about this AS business, so I'm not touching that.

Merric also does not have priority over the Warp Staff just because he's a higher tier. There may be reasons why you would want another character to use it, such as them having less EXP or Merric is doing something else. Yes, he benefits greatly from the extra EXP, but he doesn't have a monopoly over it just because of his tier position.

See above, its your logic, not mine, that was being used. Marth always needs EXP since he's the best warp-rush unit, over-levelling him returns much more proportional return per level than any other character, since he can seize & rapier.

I don't think this tier list is based on speed running/turn count minimizing, or else the tier list would be extremely skewed. Tier lists need to be based on all factors, not just speed running.

[Mekkah]

agree'd with above

also I'd still like to see this answered, it was buried on last page due to a nitpickninimininano tl;dr debate about Abel vs Cain

Why is Ricardo in Upper Mid and Julian in High? They're both combat failures, and if you'd ask me, they're both useless overall after Marth gets the Fire Emblem, which is forced on him, and he's forced onto every map.

[Lord Raven]

I think "becoming useless because Marth has the Fire Emblem" goes along vaguely with what FE3 Player said.

At any rate, I don't think they should go too low - if you send a unit or two to protect them and go after chests, it allows your other units and Marth to go through the chapter a bit faster and kill more enemies as opposed to having Marth get the chests and the others using the Door Keys on the doors. It doesn't redeem too much for late game fail (although APPARENTLY YOU DON'T NEED MUCH FOR LOLNM SO I HAVE NO CLUE WHY 15/16 STRENGTH + SILVER SWORD ISN'T ENOUGH). Not that it should be the main factor in making them high, but it should be counted.

It's a shame they can't steal. Not like there would be much worth stealing in the first place.

[Dat Nick]

My problem is people saying left right and centre that I can't read, based on quotes that they themselves misread.

I misread something and I acknowledged it. I don't have any idea why you're still throwing a hissyfit over something as trivial as this. Calm down. Seriously.

If Lena can be killed, Merric can be killed, since no-one is going to deal over, say, 17 damage, but under 20 to one shot her but not Merric. That extra 5 hp will not save merric by any significant margin. This is, of course, unless you're letting your healers get attacked by two units per turn, in which case your strategy would have to be so god-awful, you need to read a walkthrough, not a tier list.

No, that 5 HP and 2 def DOES amount to something. Against enemies with, say, 14 atk, Lena gets 2HKOd, but Merric needs three hits to go down. Better durability>>>>1 more HP healed.

2def doesn't mean crap. 6 might on the pachyderm is WAY more relevant, and you've already handwaved that. Twice.

You were the one who handwaved it. I just told you that Shooter's job is to weaken so somebody else can finish it off. Weither it's 8 OR 14 damage, that unit is dead the next time it's attacked. Know why? Because they would have killed it even if it was at FULL health. Pacyderm doesn't help. At all.

Then get counterattacked, and gain one more weapon EXP, unless they dual, either way 2 weapon exp.

Merric still gained four to their 2. Merric still wins.

Then they kill, given they've had 3 turn to do this, giving MORE AGAIN to Cain or Abel. I'm up to about 8 or 9 WEXP, you're on about 4. Remind me again how this works?

...Um, what? Given three turns, you're at six. Also, there are more units on the field than Cain and Abel. There's Marth. And Frey. The same calculation implies. Hey, look, that's MORE WEXP for Merric! He's gained 8, everybody else has 2.

2def doesn't mean crap

I just proved it DOES mean crap, since Merric would have got 2 shotted if it wasnt for that 2 def. 2 def>>>>>1 HP healed

And you're still completely ignoring the fact that I'm talking about FORGED WEAPONS.

Which are a total waste of money because you're killing everything with silver.

so we're in agreement then, Abel gets no advanatage out of his + in weapon level? Thank you.

Not until he hits level 3, which he will before the prolouge is over, no.

9? lol you just failed at stats. Let me tell you a little fact. 50% =/= 100%. that is all.

No, we're assuming averages. Abel has 9 AS at lvl 4, on average. He will double in Chapter 1, on average. Cain will NOT double in chapter 1, on average.

And if you want to be that way, there's no gaurentee that any unit will be at more than 18 spd by Endgame. Not even Sedgar, since his spd growth isn't 100% or higher. Oh wait! Ymir is sure to start with 18 spd as Hero! Ymir to top slot and everybody else to bottom. lawl.

Who else warps? Lena. Case closed. Or better still, don't kill nagi, give Marth a speedwing so he can OHKO medeus, nagi (or anyone) takes out the manakete infront of him. Almost a guaranteed one-turn kill, without sacrificng units. Is that really the best strategy you can come up with?

In which case you only need two warp staves, meaning you DON'T have to use Lena.

Also, Lena's not getting credit for this [The same way Merric or Ellis doesn't get credit for it] because it doesn't HAVE to be Lena. You can use anybody with a C in staves. A generic bishop or Etzel works just fine.

Lena shouldn't be being used as an attack unit as frequently as that. Sure, if you WANT her to die, that's a good way of doing it, but with 30 uses, taking out a strong unit every now and then, res tanking mages and healing makes her pretty viable throughout the whole game, if Aura breaks, she is NOT screwed, she will still hit for a ton of damage. I fail to see how she's 100% dependent on ANYTHING, let alone Aura.

okay, you're not using her that often to attack. Merric CAN be used that often to attack, since he's not worried about dying. Merric is doing more than Lena, ergo, he is more useful than her.

And yes, she IS screwed if Aura breaks. She can't kill anything anymore without it. Killing>>>>>leaving a target alive with even 1 HP

Crits? Well, given that you've just written a paragraph on them, I suppose I should acknowledge that what you said had NOTHING to do with what I wrote at all. What I said was that Merric doesn't OHKO opponents, he two-hits them. Thus Lena with Aura, or giving Merric an excalibur to take out dragoons with JAVELINS (as many of them do lategame) is better than Merric with a standard tome, thus Lena see use either way, one via hammeren, one via aura.

okay then. Since Excalibur has been doing nothing but rotting in his inventory since he never needed it to kill things, Merric can bust out Excalibur and laugh at said DK. Lena needs to be picky with her Aura uses. Merric does not. This is another instance on how Merric>Lena.

No, you're not. You really really aren't. See I can do it too, making claims without any facts whatsoever behind them, it's quite fun too.

...Yes, you are, you really really are. This is freaking NM. Vyland is one rounding Michalis. Camus dies from a horseslayer. Is it really that hard to believe? Tack a silver axe on catria or something, and she WILL one round every single enemy on the map, gaurenteed. That extra 6 damage from Pacyderm accomplishes nothing since that target was going to die anyway.

Yep, Catria can certain reach a ballista on the final mission, its a good thing you've got that aum staff to bring her back, the strategy you just listed will almost 100% guarantee she dies.

What's going to kill her? Paladins that do about 2-7 damage to her? lawl, i'm SOOOOO scared.

Also, I was referring tot he camus chapter.

Tell me how Lena "relies" on this one tome in any way that disadvantages her.

She can't one round anything without it, that's how it disadvantages her. Merric doesn't need any special tomes to kill anything. Honestly, why is this so difficult to understand?

and taking into account hammerene and the 30 uses on Aura.

It's too bad Aura won't last those 30 uses if you plan to use Lena regularly by the time you get Hammerene. Merric's killed far more than 30 enemies by the time the staff actually comes into existance, since he didn't need to worry about excalibur's uses since he never needed it. Merric has contributed more to the team than Lena did. Merric is more useful than Lena. Tell me what part of this is so hard to understand and why you insist on making something so simple so difficult.

Count again. I stated 3 chapters.

Oh, you typed in the chapter name for one of them. That threw me off.

...Coastal skirmish? Which one is that, again? If that's the one with the mamkute, you're insane. If Marth is somehow strong enough to kill the mamkute, he won't be strong enough to survive the mages and hunters near him after the mamkute got a hit on him.

ou CAN but then you'd be going against your own tier list, which states Athena > Lena. Sure you don't NEED to warp for it, but you don't NEED to warp for ANYTHING in this game. It just makes it a hellava lot faster, easier and more efficient.

QUOTE

Except it's already fast, easy, and efficent just to visit the village since it's in absolutly no danger of dying. Using a warp staff in that scenario is just wasting it. That warp use would have been FAR better spent skipping a chapter. Know what ISN'T efficent? Wasting resources. Using a warp on that chapter is a total waste.

Therefore the only time Lena should take preference over Merric is when Merric can't use the staff for whatever reason.

And when Merric can't use the staff, Warp provides very little benefit.

Based on what averages?

Based on his Curate>Sage averages.

Also, if we were going by PE, Merric would have about 35 HP and 11 def still in the curate class [/brag]

Simple logic, if Lena's utility is dropping, something must make it drop, and the only thing that can make it drop is Merric, since he is the only viable Staff user according to this tier list, as everyone else's opp. cost. is too high/weapon level too low.

It didn't drop. It was already there. In the earlygame, Warp is a waste of resources, with the exception of C6. Even if Merric COULD use the staff, he wouldn't.

Darth already covered the EXP thing

Edited January 7, 2009 by Berserkah2DaBladah

[slax]

I misread something and I acknowledged it. I don't have any idea why you're still throwing a hissyfit over something as trivial as this. Calm down. Seriously.

No, that 5 HP and 2 def DOES amount to something. Against enemies with, say, 14 atk, Lena gets 2HKOd, but Merric needs three hits to go down. Better durability>>>>1 more HP healed.

2Def? 14 attack on chapter 5? Dualling Lena? What are you talking about? No unit is going to Dual Lena on chapter 5. I didn't check, but in chapter 22, they have like a max of 20 attack. I'm pretty sure no-one in chapter 5 is going to have 14, let alone anyone who can Dual her as well.

You were the one who handwaved it. I just told you that Shooter's job is to weaken so somebody else can finish it off. Weither it's 8 OR 14 damage, that unit is dead the next time it's attacked. Know why? Because they would have killed it even if it was at FULL health. Pacyderm doesn't help. At all.

Then you're just assuming there's no point using a ballista at all. FYI, pachyderm can two-hit-kill many many units lategame, hoistflame can barely 3-hit the same units. Hammerene comes at a perfect time to increase durability here. Or even on arrowspate, to help out in Ch 22, where ballista can ohko almost all flying units, but before they can get to the shop (and can't use the sphere since Marth has to take that to the village). Ballistas CAN kill, frequently, and on units 90% of other troops can't hit at all, let alone OHKO or safely. "ballistas can't kill" is something I'm going to need some facts to see before I can swallow.

Merric still gained four to their 2. Merric still wins.

Dude, what? How can Merric gain 4? He takes two turns to do so. In that turn, you've got a full health cavalier doing NOTHING while he's waiting for Merric to heal someone else. That's so blatantly babying I don't even need to rebutt it, you've done my work for me.

...Um, what? Given three turns, you're at six. Also, there are more units on the field than Cain and Abel. There's Marth. And Frey. The same calculation implies. Hey, look, that's MORE WEXP for Merric! He's gained 8, everybody else has 2.

oooook, are you completely ignoring counterattacks, duals, AND kills? that's the only way you can come up with the ludicrous numbers you're coming up with. 8WEXP can only be gained by merric over 4 turns, you're telling me that over 4 turns, not a single unit has killed more than once, dualled more than once (without killing), never gotten counterattacked in the enemy phase and has attacked (but not killed) only twice? What an absolutely absurd set of assumptions. You ARE just babying Merric if you've got that many full health units standing around doing NOTHING for 4 turns while Merric just farms EXP+WEXP. Go arena Abuse, or Boss abuse, that's what you're telling me here.

I just proved it DOES mean crap, since Merric would have got 2 shotted if it wasnt for that 2 def. 2 def>>>>>1 HP healed

By a 14 attack unit on chapter 5 who can dual units with 8 speed. You can see why I'd have a bit of trouble swallowing this.

Which are a total waste of money because you're killing everything with silver.

There are no silver javelins, and they are very very useful. Medeus can be one-turned without marth by using them. And you're going to have more than enough funds to burn by then. Not more than one, but that's why hammerne is useful.

Not until he hits level 3, which he will before the prolouge is over, no.

And When will cain get his C in lances? before the prolouge is over. You'll have to be a bit more specific than that.

No, we're assuming averages. Abel has 9 AS at lvl 4, on average. He will double in Chapter 1, on average. Cain will NOT double in chapter 1, on average.

Then why is Frey higher than Abel, if you're counting chapter 1 utility? He also won't have 9 speed, yet he's still higher than Abel, for having almost identical stats to Cain.

And if you want to be that way, there's no gaurentee that any unit will be at more than 18 spd by Endgame. Not even Sedgar, since his spd growth isn't 100% or higher. Oh wait! Ymir is sure to start with 18 spd as Hero! Ymir to top slot and everybody else to bottom. lawl.

Fallacy. 50%=/= 0%

Abel's speed is 24+-2, making him 22 by minimum, not below 18, which is three times that error. Remind me again why were you laughing?

50%= 50%. It is not 0%, it is not 100%, it is 50%.

In which case you only need two warp staves, meaning you DON'T have to use Lena.

Who WOULD you use? No-one has the weapon level or the opp cost is too high. I still stand by that statement.

Also, Lena's not getting credit for this [The same way Merric or Ellis doesn't get credit for it] because it doesn't HAVE to be Lena. You can use anybody with a C in staves. A generic bishop or Etzel works just fine.

Only if you completely ignore this tier list which says using lena is better than using Etzel. I may as well pick Karel over Harken, he can still use swords. Doesn't matter that Etzel is a totally inferior unit to Lena (according to the list). I'm going off YOUR tier list and YOUR previous arguments, so you're either proving yourself wrong, or are a hypocrite.

okay, you're not using her that often to attack. Merric CAN be used that often to attack, since he's not worried about dying. Merric is doing more than Lena, ergo, he is more useful than her.

Ergo, this makes her less useful than Athena how? I think you've forgetten what I'm arguing. I said Lena should move up the tier list, or Merric down, NEVER that Lena should go above Merric or Merric below Lena. Merric IS better than Lena, I've only said that, what, six times now? his HP IS a strict advantage. Now then, IN RELATION TO, say, Frey, why is Merric several units better, but lena about a dozen units worse?

And yes, she IS screwed if Aura breaks. She can't kill anything anymore without it. Killing>>>>>leaving a target alive with even 1 HP

so that means suddenly she can't heal, can't warp, can't finish off units who were weakened in counterattacks. Right, She's totally screwed. Especially since those 30 uses have to last her less than 9 chapters before she can fully repair it multiple times over. Right, this is a HUGE disadvantage [/sarcasm]

okay then. Since Excalibur has been doing nothing but rotting in his inventory since he never needed it to kill things, Merric can bust out Excalibur and laugh at said DK. Lena needs to be picky with her Aura uses. Merric does not. This is another instance on how Merric>Lena.

Another instance of how you completely missed the point. Merric, upon levelling up, will have stuff all tome weapon level. But he can use Excalibur. Using up this tome to get him to the next weapon level is not an unreasonable assumption. Now then, along comes Hammerene, two chapters before missions with a bajillion wyvrens & pegasi, mostly equipped with javelins, and now that damaged excalibur turns into a 30-use-ultra-tome. Thus, using Lena has improved your game significantly, even if you use it on arrowspate rather than excalibur, (let alone both). Lena is thereofre undeniably very useful. Therefore she should go up the tier list. NOT above Merric, but no-one's aruging she should be going above Merric except you, which is why I say you've completely missed the point.

...Yes, you are, you really really are. This is freaking NM. Vyland is one rounding Michalis. Camus dies from a horseslayer. Is it really that hard to believe? Tack a silver axe on catria or something, and she WILL one round every single enemy on the map, gaurenteed. That extra 6 damage from Pacyderm accomplishes nothing since that target was going to die anyway.

I don't follow. I'm sure there's some logic in saying that there's no reason to hammerne a ballista and then arguing about a map that you have to 90% complete BEFORE you get pachyderm.

What's going to kill her? Paladins that do about 2-7 damage to her? lawl, i'm SOOOOO scared.

Also, I was referring tot he camus chapter.

And I already told you, you don't get pachyderm until the end of this chapter anyway. That's a swing and a miss.

She can't one round anything without it, that's how it disadvantages her. Merric doesn't need any special tomes to kill anything. Honestly, why is this so difficult to understand?

Because you're comparing Lena to Merric, and not to other units. You're saying lena has a disadvantage compared to the BEST unit in the game, therefore she should be in middle tier. That so does not follow logically.

It's too bad Aura won't last those 30 uses if you plan to use Lena regularly by the time you get Hammerene. Merric's killed far more than 30 enemies by the time the staff actually comes into existance, since he didn't need to worry about excalibur's uses since he never needed it. Merric has contributed more to the team than Lena did. Merric is more useful than Lena. Tell me what part of this is so hard to understand and why you insist on making something so simple so difficult.

Because again, you're comparing a middle tier unit to a top tier unit and arguing that's why she can't move up two places on the tier list. It's difficult because you don't understand the very topic you're arguing. Even so, Lena can still, without aura, preform many many more services to make her higher than middle tier, such as healing, mopping up injured units, hammerne, warping, quick levelling, no opp. cost on being a healer, etc etc. Just because she's inferior to Merric does not make her inferior to Athena.

Oh, you typed in the chapter name for one of them. That threw me off.

...Coastal skirmish? Which one is that, again? If that's the one with the mamkute, you're insane. If Marth is somehow strong enough to kill the mamkute, he won't be strong enough to survive the mages and hunters near him after the mamkute got a hit on him.

CH8, the one with the isolated boss where no reinforcements will arrive if you kill the boss and won't reach him for 3 turns anyway. No I did not mean the one with the manakete.

Except it's already fast, easy, and efficent just to visit the village since it's in absolutly no danger of dying. Using a warp staff in that scenario is just wasting it. That warp use would have been FAR better spent skipping a chapter. Know what ISN'T efficent? Wasting resources. Using a warp on that chapter is a total waste.

Like how you propose to waste turns letting Merric heal your units without them attacking anyone just so that he gets enough WEXP to use warp in the first place? No, I'm not proposing to waste warp, I'm saying there exist opportunities to use it, such as skipping chapters. Getting viallages IS a viable use if you want quick exp for her, given that arriving there via standard tactics will rob athena of EXP, even if she doesn't need it. So, I'm not proposing necessary uses of warp, mearly stating that it is useful, and thus the only wielder at the time should be also useful, ie: higher in the tier list.

And when Merric can't use the staff, Warp provides very little benefit.

I dunno, skipping a chapter and saving chests that are normally unsaveable is a pretty big benefit IMO.

Based on his Curate>Sage averages.

he'll get on average 7.8 at 20-20. Not your "8 by 15", where he'll have 7.5 with a 5% growth. I ask again; based on what averages?

Also, if we were going by PE, Merric would have about 35 HP and 11 def still in the curate class [/brag]

And it's still irrelevant to a tier list.

It didn't drop. It was already there. In the earlygame, Warp is a waste of resources, with the exception of C6. Even if Merric COULD use the staff, he wouldn't.

and C8.

Darth already covered the EXP thing

Darth?

[Rodykitty]

I am Darth Haro.

[Dat Nick]

2Def? 14 attack on chapter 5? Dualling Lena? What are you talking about? No unit is going to Dual Lena on chapter 5. I didn't check, but in chapter 22, they have like a max of 20 attack. I'm pretty sure no-one in chapter 5 is going to have 14, let alone anyone who can Dual her as well.

The closer your healers are to your other character, the easier it is for them to heal. Where are your other characters? Near the enemy units. Your healers CAN get attacked, it happens, because the AI doesn't care that they aren't supposed to be attacked.

dunno, skipping a chapter and saving chests that are normally unsaveable is a pretty big benefit IMO.

I already mentioned that. That's it's only use.

Ballistas CAN kill, frequently, and on units 90% of other troops can't hit at all, let alone OHKO or safely. "ballistas can't kill" is something I'm going to need some facts to see before I can swallow.

atk in the 30s that can't double and hits defense equals no one hit kill. That simple.

Also, Ballistas AREN'T very good on NM, because NM enemies are the blatant opposite of danger so it's no trouble eating a counter or two from them, but they're still better than, say, Tomas/Linde since they can stay back from the action.

Dude, what? How can Merric gain 4? He takes two turns to do so. In that turn, you've got a full health cavalier doing NOTHING while he's waiting for Merric to heal someone else. That's so blatantly babying I don't even need to rebutt it, you've done my work for me.

There's not something for that cavalier to kill every turn. There's only so many enemies on the map.

Either he can't reach it another enemy, or all the enemies are gone.

8WEXP can only be gained by merric over 4 turns, you're telling me that over 4 turns, not a single unit has killed more than once, dualled more than once (without killing), never gotten counterattacked in the enemy phase and has attacked (but not killed) only twice? What an absolutely absurd set of assumptions

Except enemies are in limited supply. There is NOT enough for every single unit to kill something every turn. In fact, in the early stages, you'll be lucky to have, say, 4 kills per character. IF even that.

By a 14 attack unit on chapter 5 who can dual units with 8 speed. You can see why I'd have a bit of trouble swallowing this.

whut? Where does speed come into this? Lena can have 30 speed and cav can have 0 and she can still be attacked. Of course he's not going to double Lena. He can't double Merric. And I never said he could double Lena to begin with.

There are no silver javelins, and they are very very useful.

Except forged javelins are ALSO overkill since normal javelins are more than sufficent against 95% of things.

And When will cain get his C in lances? before the prolouge is over. You'll have to be a bit more specific than that.

wtfno. That's 70 uses of Iron lances Cain has to go through BEFORE THE PROLOUGE IS OVER. There's no way in hell that is happening. You can solo 3 and 4 with Cain and it's still not going to happen.

Abel needs to be at lvl 4 for 9 AS and 8 str before the prolouge is over, which he is going to reach.

Then why is Frey higher than Abel, if you're counting chapter 1 utility? He also won't have 9 speed, yet he's still higher than Abel, for having almost identical stats to Cain.

Because his speed will be higher than Cain because of level lead, and thus, it won't take him as long to start doubling.

50%= 50%. It is not 0%, it is not 100%, it is 50%.

that's nice and all but we're still discussing averages, AND assuming them, like it or not.

Who WOULD you use? No-one has the weapon level or the opp cost is too high. I still stand by that statement.

...Nobody has the weapon level? THe hell? This is the FINAL CHAPTER. Anybody can have C staves by then. EST can have C staves by then.

You would use anybody with C staves, which will be laughably easy to get at that point in the game. There's no reason Lena gets any credit for this.

Only if you completely ignore this tier list which says using lena is better than using Etzel.

wow, somebody totally missed the entire point of this post.

Who cares if Lena is better than Etzel? Why does this give her credit for one turn warping the final chapter? ANYBODY can be used to one turn warp the final chapter. Karel/Harken using swords is a completley diffrent issue since they don't use swords equally. Also, we were discussing one turn warp, not the other aspects of combat, and Lena doesn't use warp staves any better than Etzel.

Ergo, this makes her less useful than Athena how?

Athena as peg=win

so that means suddenly she can't heal, can't warp, can't finish off units who were weakened in counterattacks. Right, She's totally screwed. Especially since those 30 uses have to last her less than 9 chapters before she can fully repair it multiple times over. Right, this is a HUGE disadvantage [/sarcasm]

At this point, Merric can do all of the above AND kill things. Also, your units counter kill, they don't leave units alive, so Lena won't be doing anything there. Oh yeah, and with Gaidens, that's 11. So Lena is capable of killing less than three units a chapter if she wants Aura intact. That's pathetic.

Another instance of how you completely missed the point. Merric, upon levelling up, will have stuff all tome weapon level.

Hm? Do you mean when he promotes? No, his weapon level is fine when he promotes. He's very close to C tomes, and all he needs is D for Blizza.

ut he can use Excalibur. Using up this tome to get him to the next weapon level is not an unreasonable assumption

...Um, yes, it is. Why does he need Excalibur for the sole purpose of getting to C? It's no better than using Blizza. Also, when Merric promotes, Blizza is killing. This does no good and does nothing but waste excalibur.

I don't follow. I'm sure there's some logic in saying that there's no reason to hammerne a ballista and then arguing about a map that you have to 90% complete BEFORE you get pachyderm.

Um....what? You lost me.

And I already told you, you don't get pachyderm until the end of this chapter anyway. That's a swing and a miss.

wtf? where the hell does pacyderm come into this? What relevance does when you get pacyderm hold to the fact that Catria>>>>>enemies around the ballista?

Because you're comparing Lena to Merric, and not to other units. You're saying lena has a disadvantage compared to the BEST unit in the game, therefore she should be in middle tier. That so does not follow logically.

Her AS sucks, meaning her offense sucks, her pre-Merric getting warp warp usage is very limited, she's on a very strict limit for using Aura, her only means of making her offense NOT suck, her durability is bad even FOR a mage, and her only saving grace is hammerene. Her position seems completly fair to me. See? Not a single comparision to Merric there. All Lena's ups and downs, nothing more.

mopping up injured units

By the time Lena can attack, there are no injured units. Just dead ones.

CH8, the one with the isolated boss where no reinforcements will arrive if you kill the boss and won't reach him for 3 turns anyway.

Oh, that one. Well, chief, you yourself said it would take Merric about four chapters to get to C staves, and this is about the time frame we're looking at. With Barrier factored in [The res boost has almost no use on NM, why NOT convert it into EXP for Merric and other units?] I find it unlikely Merric won't be using it by this point.

Getting viallages IS a viable use if you want quick exp for her, given that arriving there via standard tactics will rob athena of EXP

...We're looking at what, 3 kills for her, here, TOPS? That doesn't justify a warp use and you know it.

I dunno, skipping a chapter and saving chests that are normally unsaveable is a pretty big benefit IMO.

And that's why I said "very little" and not none. Skipping the chapter, Merric will be able to use the staff by then.

he'll get on average 7.8 at 20-20. Not your "8 by 15", where he'll have 7.5 with a 5% growth. I ask again; based on what averages?

whut? that IS 8. 7.5 rounds up to 8. lrn2math

And it's still irrelevant to a tier list.

Show me in that statement where I claimed it WAS relevant.

and C8.

by which time merric will be able to use the staff

[dondon151]

Uh... you cannot round average stats up or down unless it's reasonably close enough that most of the time, it'll be one instead of the other. 7.5 is 7.5. 7.5 is not 8. Half the time the Merric will have 7 or less defense, and half the time Merric will have 8 or more defense.

Abel at level 4 has 7.2 strength and 8.5 speed. That is not 8 strength and 9 AS. Most of the time Abel will have 7 or less strength and half of the time Abel will have 8 or less speed.

Please stop distorting the averages.

Edited January 8, 2009 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

whut? that IS 8. 7.5 rounds up to 8. lrn2math

I'm pretty sure basic statistics applies to our averages more than basic rounding. In which case, there is an equal chance of either result occurring, the averages just show a sort of mean.. well, it's basically all of their potential stats * the probability of having each. So 7 * .5 + 8 * .5 = 3.5 + 4 + 7.5, which leans towards neither side in terms of statistics. Edited January 8, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Rodykitty]

I agree with others on the averages thing.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I must concur, rounding up the averages in that manner seems too optimistic.

Also, I'd advise against going into staff weapon levels when debating (or characters overall). Class set A and Female units can easily obtain a C with a small dose of staff uses (22.5) and reclassing into Bishops. Ranks A and B would be a different story but maybe not in NM.

[Rodykitty]

Now even with everyone agreeing that #.5 is a hit or miss, is this enough to bump Cain over Abel, or does it mean the gap between them is even smaller than it was before?

[slax]

The closer your healers are to your other character, the easier it is for them to heal. Where are your other characters? Near the enemy units. Your healers CAN get attacked, it happens, because the AI doesn't care that they aren't supposed to be attacked.

And lena won't be killed in one hit. Like I said, HP is only an issue if you're getting you healer hit TWICE per turn.

I already mentioned that. That's it's only use.

And Ch8, I'll address that later, when I get to WEXP.

atk in the 30s that can't double and hits defense equals no one hit kill. That simple.

He hits from 10 distance away + 4 movement. He doesn't NEED to OHKO. Two shots before the enemy gets in rage is effectively the same, and FYI ballista can EASILY ohko fliers.

Also, Ballistas AREN'T very good on NM, because NM enemies are the blatant opposite of danger so it's no trouble eating a counter or two from them, but they're still better than, say, Tomas/Linde since they can stay back from the action.

Except I'm arguing Hammeren's use, not the ballista's.

There's not something for that cavalier to kill every turn. There's only so many enemies on the map.

Let me get this straight. You've cleared the map. 4 turns later and of your 3 full HP cavaliers, which is what you'll have according to your assumptions, not even one of them can reach a single enemy? then why haven't you still cleared the map yet? You're, what, just boss farming or something?

Map's aren't that big.

Either he can't reach it another enemy, or all the enemies are gone.

If there aren't any enemies, then you shouldn't be spending 4 turns to heal. Just hop on the arena why don't you?

Except enemies are in limited supply. There is NOT enough for every single unit to kill something every turn. In fact, in the early stages, you'll be lucky to have, say, 4 kills per character. IF even that.

Addressed above, this is blatant farming.

whut? Where does speed come into this? Lena can have 30 speed and cav can have 0 and she can still be attacked. Of course he's not going to double Lena. He can't double Merric. And I never said he could double Lena to begin with.

Then remind me how a non-doubling unit with 14 attack can kill lena who has 3 def and16 odd HP? Or are you going to let your healer get hit by two units and still "not have enough enemies". Face it, your arguments contradict each other.

wtfno. That's 70 uses of Iron lances Cain has to go through BEFORE THE PROLOUGE IS OVER. There's no way in hell that is happening. You can solo 3 and 4 with Cain and it's still not going to happen.

This proves how your argument makes no sense. If Cain can't gain a C, then how can Frey, and Frey is almost identical to Cain, yet Frey is still above Abel. Thus, given Frey will also not have 9 speed, by Ch 1, what possible reason do you have for putting Frey above Abel? Especially given Abel has higher bases than Frey in all aspects bar strength, where Abel has higher growths, apply rounding and voila, Abel > Frey. Unless Frey needs levels, which you've already said he doesn't. Or rounding does not apply, So now you've either contradicted yourself on Frey not needing levels, or your own tier list, or on your own rounding logic. More likely, all three.

...Nobody has the weapon level? THe hell? This is the FINAL CHAPTER. Anybody can have C staves by then. EST can have C staves by then.

Oh here's a good one. Oh yes, let's use Est above Lena, oh that doesn't violate any logic, oh no sir. Obviously Est is a useable cleric, clearly.

You just said use Est over Lena, once you stop playing the "I hate lena, and will ignore common sense to shove her down" game, I'll take you seriously.

You would use anybody with C staves, which will be laughably easy to get at that point in the game. There's no reason Lena gets any credit for this.

You can also pick Karel over Harken.

Who cares if Lena is better than Etzel?

Oh, only the people writing a tier list, that's all.

Athena as peg=win

Sacrificing a huge chunk of your forces for her is not.

At this point, Merric can do all of the above AND kill things. Also, your units counter kill, they don't leave units alive, so Lena won't be doing anything there.

Sure, keep comparing Lena to Merric, that's exactly what I was talking about[/sarcasm] Seriously, you didn't even read my post did you? I only said, what, 8 times now, that I'm trying to get Lena highER on the list, not as high as Merric?

Hm? Do you mean when he promotes? No, his weapon level is fine when he promotes. He's very close to C tomes, and all he needs is D for Blizza.

...Um, yes, it is. Why does he need Excalibur for the sole purpose of getting to C? It's no better than using Blizza. Also, when Merric promotes, Blizza is killing. This does no good and does nothing but waste excalibur.

How can Merric be C tomes if you're using him as a cleric?

Um....what? You lost me.

You said that in the Camus mission, Pachyderm will not be useful, as Catria can solo the map. I said you don't *have* pachyderm in that map so your entire post was gibberish.

wtf? where the hell does pacyderm come into this? What relevance does when you get pacyderm hold to the fact that Catria>>>>>enemies around the ballista?

Oooookkkk. We were talking about hammerne's utility on repairing Pachyderm as opposed to using hoistflame. You need to work on your memory if you actually thought what you said was even slightly relevant.

Her AS sucks, meaning her offense sucks, her pre-Merric getting warp warp usage is very limited, she's on a very strict limit for using Aura, her only means of making her offense NOT suck, her durability is bad even FOR a mage, and her only saving grace is hammerene. Her position seems completly fair to me. See? Not a single comparision to Merric there. All Lena's ups and downs, nothing more.

Julian above her? Athena above her? See what you've done is *still* say Person Y is worth X, but then not say how X compares to the rest of the cast. How does Athena outstip her? Julian? How is Julian better than Catria, who can solo maps. Lena has greater attack that Julian, who is completly useless in any combat role aside from using armorslayers, which are better off in many other unit's hands before his. His thief role is inferior to marth since he can't survive, while Lena still has warp and hammeren to increase her utility. Plus she can RES tank, plus she can deal significant damage to any enemy in the game, even without aura. Athena requires you to kill off a dozen units to get her, and becomes slightly worse than 90% of the cavaliers and pegasai you would have gotten anyway, even if she is good. THIS is what you should be telling me, not useless things I already know and have posted multiple times over the last half a dozen pages.

Oh, that one. Well, chief, you yourself said it would take Merric about four chapters to get to C staves, and this is about the time frame we're looking at. With Barrier factored in [The res boost has almost no use on NM, why NOT convert it into EXP for Merric and other units?] I find it unlikely Merric won't be using it by this point.

Merric is already healing on every turn, bar the first. Stopping to barrier is not only blatantly farming, but also impossible since he doesn't *have* a D in staves for 15 turns, starting ch 5, and Ch 5 should NOT take 15 turns. So barrier won't help him. Then you've still got another 22 heals to go. On maps that barely last 10 turns, that's really pushing it. I mean I know you like farming and all, but really, that's pushing it. Especially given you have lena to heal with as well, since you already told me that tier lists don't effect EXP priority. Yeah, this isn't likely.

whut? that IS 8. 7.5 rounds up to 8. lrn2math

Let me tell you what you just did. You said to a university student who got a high distinction in two seperate stats courses that he needs to learn the exact subject he's been studying for a year now... Do I need to point out how much of a fool you look like?

by which time merric will be able to use the staff

Stop farming start debating.

Now even with everyone agreeing that #.5 is a hit or miss, is this enough to bump Cain over Abel, or does it mean the gap between them is even smaller than it was before?

IMO, cain should be one below frey, either both above or below Abel, simply because the units are so similar, and there are so few units in the previous mission to distinguish them (though cain definately < frey)

Edited January 8, 2009 by slax

[Rodykitty]

Merric is already healing on every turn, bar the first. Stopping to barrier is not only blatantly farming, but also impossible since he doesn't *have* a D in staves for 15 turns, starting ch 5, and Ch 5 should NOT take 15 turns. So barrier won't help him. Then you've still got another 22 heals to go. On maps that barely last 10 turns, that's really pushing it. I mean I know you like farming and all, but really, that's pushing it. Especially given you have lena to heal with as well, since you already told me that tier lists don't effect EXP priority. Yeah, this isn't likely.

Merric only has to share healing with Rena, and even then I found that healing is not really something that is cut in half by multiple characters. In fact, using two characters likely won't affect the EXP pool at all because in this game healing usually doesn't bring a character to full health a lot of times, allowing two healers to gain EXP from one unit in a single turn.

IMO, cain should be one below frey, either both above or below Abel, simply because the units are so similar, and there are so few units in the previous mission to distinguish them (though cain definately < frey)

"Because the units are so similar" is not really a good reason, because we're comparing differences, not similarities.

Abel is obviously superior at Chapter 1 and before. He does get the Javelin, which is useful for ranged units in the Prologue. It's how well Cain catches up that's going to determine whether he goes up or not, because there's a whole game after the Prologue as well.

Julian? How is Julian better than Catria, who can solo maps.

Catria has pretty crappy join time. The chapter design of 14 and 15 and her amazing growths is what's making her a usable addition to the team. Edited January 8, 2009 by FE3 Player

[slax]

Merric only has to share healing with Rena, and even then I found that healing is not really something that is cut in half by multiple characters. In fact, using two characters likely won't affect the EXP pool at all because in this game healing usually doesn't bring a character to full health a lot of times, allowing two healers to gain EXP from one unit in a single turn.

WEXP* typo. And yeah, Lena isn't going to halve the EXP pool, but I never said that anyway, she will reduce it though. Especially if she's mending.

"Because the units are so similar" is not really a good reason, because we're comparing differences, not similarities.

That's like saying we aren't measuring how hot something is, we're measuring how cold it is XD

Well then let me restate then. Frey and cain's growths differ by 5% in skill, 5% in speed, %5 in HP and 5% in luck. That's one point over 20 levels, which makes absolutely no difference to gameplay. Frey's bases are very similiar to Cain's, 2 less HP, 1 less luck and 1 more skill. Not enough to make a difference. Frey comes one chapter earlier, but B2B already said he doesn't get EXP priority, so he's only going to have an EXP lead of about 60 on cain. Thus the only difference is that Frey can use javelins earlier, which doesn't mean much given he has 1 lower speed than Abel, making his AS the exact same as Abel, except that Abel has one less attack. So I don't see how the speed advantage makes Cain < Abel but Frey > Abel, given Frey is identical to Cain in basically every area bar weapon level, which, as said before, is irrelevant since Abel also has this same weapon level except that he has base higher speed, meaning that his str growth will negate frey's relative advantage (ie, +1 speed and + 1 str will give Abel +2 AS, while Frey can only get +1 AS per level -putting Frey behind)

Abel is obviously superior at Chapter 1 and before. He does get the Javelin, which is useful for ranged units in the Prologue. It's how well Cain catches up that's going to determine whether he goes up or not, because there's a whole game after the Prologue as well.

That's fine, but then why is Frey above Abel? Frey has the same speed as Cain, and their growths differ by 5%, which is very menial. The Javelin use and 1 ch advantage puts Frey above Cain, obviously, but I fail to see how it puts him above Abel, given speed is supposed to be important and the 1 str weight disadvantage will be made up by the time the prologue is over.

Catria has pretty crappy join time. The chapter design of 14 and 15 and her amazing growths is what's making her a usable addition to the team.

But Julian is still *almost* useless. Even though Catria does come late, she can be used and will make for an excellent character lategame, without much babying since she has good weapons at her disposal. Julian will not, ever. He just can't hurt anything, can't survive anything and can be (not will be) obsoleted by marth in the chest/door opening aspect. Not to mention that just killing the thieves works just as well, since more than one item can be dropped. Therefore I see no reason why Julian is above these other units. Sure he speeds up the game, but so does Lena.

[Rodykitty]

WEXP* typo. And yeah, Lena isn't going to halve the EXP pool, but I never said that anyway, she will reduce it though. Especially if she's mending.

So how will Merric have to farm even if Lena's using Mend? Just have Merric heal first, then have Lena heal the rest.

Well then let me restate then. Frey and cain's growths differ by 5% in skill, 5% in speed, %5 in HP and 5% in luck. That's one point over 20 levels, which makes absolutely no difference to gameplay. Frey's bases are very similiar to Cain's, 2 less HP, 1 less luck and 1 more skill. Not enough to make a difference. Frey comes one chapter earlier, but B2B already said he doesn't get EXP priority, so he's only going to have an EXP lead of about 60 on cain. Thus the only difference is that Frey can use javelins earlier, which doesn't mean much given he has 1 lower speed than Abel, making his AS the exact same as Abel, except that Abel has one less attack. So I don't see how the speed advantage makes Cain < Abel but Frey > Abel, given Frey is identical to Cain in basically every area bar weapon level, which, as said before, is irrelevant since Abel also has this same weapon level except that he has base higher speed, meaning that his str growth will negate frey's relative advantage (ie, +1 speed and + 1 str will give Abel +2 AS, while Frey can only get +1 AS per level -putting Frey behind)

So uh.... You think Abel > Frey, right?

Even still, this is about Abel vs. Cain. If that is true, then it will only turn into Frey vs. Cain.

But Julian is still *almost* useless. Even though Catria does come late, she can be used and will make for an excellent character lategame, without much babying since she has good weapons at her disposal. Julian will not, ever. He just can't hurt anything, can't survive anything and can be (not will be) obsoleted by marth in the chest/door opening aspect. Not to mention that just killing the thieves works just as well, since more than one item can be dropped. Therefore I see no reason why Julian is above these other units. Sure he speeds up the game, but so does Lena.

All I read from this is "I'm just going to copy what Mekkah said."

Everyone knows he starts out crappy, but to say he can't hurt anything ever is just plain stupid, because there's a whole game after he joins that exists, and he certainly has the growths to become a unit capable of damaging enemies and surviving. He also gets insane luck, which is good for one of the few things luck is good for: Devil Sword.

He's also not obsoleted by Marth. Sometimes Marth and other units would rather do other things on the map while thieves open chests. They're also allowing other units to have their turns while they themselves open chests, and are not taking away anything from other units. Also, some chests must be opened, as enemy thieves don't carry everything.

Will Julian move down? Quite possibly. Is he useless? Heck no.

[slax]

So how will Merric have to farm even if Lena's using Mend? Just have Merric heal first, then have Lena heal the rest.

Because healing someone twice for no reason other than EXP is farming. I mean that's just wasting durability.

So uh.... You think Abel > Frey, right?

depends, but yes for now.

Even still, this is about Abel vs. Cain. If that is true, then it will only turn into Frey vs. Cain.

No, Cain < Frey. That's a given. What I'm saying is it makes no sense to split two practically identical units on the tier list. If Cain is < Abel, then Frey should be too, since he is a mirror of cain. if Cain > Abel, then Frey should be too, since they are mirros of each other. Either way, the two should not be split up IMO.

All I read from this is "I'm just going to copy what Mekkah said."

Everyone knows he starts out crappy, but to say he can't hurt anything ever is just plain stupid, because there's a whole game after he joins that exists, and he certainly has the growths to become a unit capable of damaging enemies and surviving. He also gets insane luck, which is good for one of the few things luck is good for: Devil Sword.

Well, sure, if he's your first preference on the Devil sword, then go for it, but I mean really, with most units lategame having around 30 HP, and Julian having only 17 str max, even dualling, that's borderline killing, not to mention how hard he is to train up, given he can barely kill archers in one turn earlygame, and can't survive anything in the counterattack (again in earlygame). (lategame is not much better, having only 38 hp and 12 def, but that's excusable, since there aren't many instances where chests are on the frontline in lategame) Besides, B2B already said how Lena being reliant on one weapon is a disadvantage, and Julian is very reliant on good weapons, made worse by the fact he has to share his weapon pool with many sword users, especially if there are going to be alot of Mercs on the field. Plus, if you don't level him for one or two levels, catching up becomes exponentially harder, given he's very very reliant on his str growth, and not the base. Given the already limited amount of enemies around, this puts him in a very borderline level of utility in combat.

He's also not obsoleted by Marth. Sometimes Marth and other units would rather do other things on the map while thieves open chests. They're also allowing other units to have their turns while they themselves open chests, and are not taking away anything from other units. Also, some chests must be opened, as enemy thieves don't carry everything.

I said *can* not *will* be obsoleted. The fact is he's not necessary. Using him is more of a luxury, really. Early game there are very few chests you have to go out of your way to get, even fewer that thieves won't pluck from, and his lategame utility alone isn't that good, though it is alot easier to defend most lategame chests while he plunderes. -there are jut better people to pick from, I mean it's not like keys are hard to come by.

Will Julian move down? Quite possibly. Is he useless? Heck no.

I didn't say he's useless, he's just *almost* useless. What do I mean by *almost*? well, that he takes too much effort to train for little return in regard to combat, he can be obsoleted by keys or enemy thieves in many chest missions, and the ones that he can't be are not large in number. Finally, he has an opportunity cost involved with using him (ie: sharing of swords and EXP) that is quite significant.

[Rodykitty]

No, Cain < Frey. That's a given. What I'm saying is it makes no sense to split two practically identical units on the tier list. If Cain is < Abel, then Frey should be too, since he is a mirror of cain. if Cain > Abel, then Frey should be too, since they are mirros of each other. Either way, the two should not be split up IMO.

The only possible way one character will = another is if they both start out with the same stats, the same levels, the same weapons, the same support options, and the same join time, and were placed in such a way on a perfectly symmetrical map that they would both be equally useful for that chapter.

This is not the case. One is still going to be better than the other, even if the gap is tiny. Starting with a D in lances and starting a chapter earlier is plenty enough to put Frey above Cain.

I didn't say he's useless, he's just *almost* useless. What do I mean by *almost*? well, that he takes too much effort to train for little return in regard to combat, he can be obsoleted by keys or enemy thieves in many chest missions, and the ones that he can't be are not large in number. Finally, he has an opportunity cost involved with using him (ie: sharing of swords and EXP) that is quite significant.

No, he's not almost useless. His growths do not warrant putting him in low tier, and his utility can still exist. Can he drop because of his poor starting strength and starting HP? Quite possibly. Will he drop into low/bottom tier? Of course not. He doesn't deserve that.

Also, we're assuming that Julian is getting adequate EXP during training, and is on an adequately sized team. It doesn't matter who is being removed in his place, what matters is if he's a quality enough unit to still be good which is how his tier list placing will belong.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. Because healing someone twice for no reason other than EXP is farming. I mean that's just wasting durability.

2. No, Cain < Frey. That's a given. What I'm saying is it makes no sense to split two practically identical units on the tier list. If Cain is < Abel, then Frey should be too, since he is a mirror of cain. if Cain > Abel, then Frey should be too, since they are mirros of each other. Either way, the two should not be split up IMO.

3. Well, sure, if he's your first preference on the Devil sword, then go for it, but I mean really, with most units lategame having around 30 HP, and Julian having only 17 str max, even dualling, that's borderline killing, not to mention how hard he is to train up, given he can barely kill archers in one turn earlygame, and can't survive anything in the counterattack (again in earlygame). (lategame is not much better, having only 38 hp and 12 def, but that's excusable, since there aren't many instances where chests are on the frontline in lategame) Besides, B2B already said how Lena being reliant on one weapon is a disadvantage, and Julian is very reliant on good weapons, made worse by the fact he has to share his weapon pool with many sword users, especially if there are going to be alot of Mercs on the field. Plus, if you don't level him for one or two levels, catching up becomes exponentially harder, given he's very very reliant on his str growth, and not the base. Given the already limited amount of enemies around, this puts him in a very borderline level of utility in combat.

1. How?

2. Personally I see it as Abel > Frey > Cain. I'm guessing there was an assumption that Frey would start doubling at the same time as Abel.

3. He isn't hard to train and isn't reliant on "very good weapons"... He's doing fine with an Iron sword when he comes in and can adjust to steel sword (and continue doubling) in about 2 level ups. It's not so much that there's preference on him for the Devil Sword, it's just more suitable (for him and other high luck units with low STR) and less consequential since by the time you get it (chapter 20... this may be something that needs to be fixed on the main site since on chapter 21 I have 2 Devil Swords...), every other sword user is probably 1 rounding everything so giving the Devil Sword to one of your main fighters would just be needless overkilling putting that unit at risk if he has to double to kill even with a Devil Sword. Since Julian has high luck and low STR, It's unlikely that the curse will activate and that low STR of his means he'd take less damage from the curse.

Example: Let's compare the Devil Sword on a Hero Barst of 50 HP, 21 STR, C rank Swords, 24 LCK and on the Lena I used earlier (29 HP, 5 STR as a Swordmaster, C rank, 30 Luck) on a chapter 21 enemy.

The enemy is a Paladin with 30 HP and 10 DEF. Barst is doing 28 Damage with each hit with a backfire rate of 7% x 2. Like I said before, needless overkilling and it's just setting up your character for a higher chance at the curse rate if he's not 1HKOing (not to mention that he's losing more than half of his HP if that curse kicks in and let's not forget that Barst has above average luck). Lena with just 5 STR is 12 and doubling... If this was Julian, he'd likely have a B in swords at this point and 7 STR would be easy to reach so he doesn't have much trouble killing lategame units like this one.

Why exactly do you say that Julian is hard to train? Because he's not 1 rounding in the first chapters he's in?

[Dat Nick]

And lena won't be killed in one hit. Like I said, HP is only an issue if you're getting you healer hit TWICE per turn.

And I never said shed be killed in one hit. I already said two. The point is, lasting another hit>>>healing 1 more HP

He hits from 10 distance away + 4 movement. He doesn't NEED to OHKO. Two shots before the enemy gets in rage is effectively the same, and FYI ballista can EASILY ohko fliers.

Ballista as your only means of reaching a certian enemy is ridcliously situational.

4 turns later and of your 3 full HP cavaliers, which is what you'll have according to your assumptions, not even one of them can reach a single enemy?

not in more than two turn bursts, but your units aren't getting a kill every single turn. Merric is often getting a heal every single turn.

Then remind me how a non-doubling unit with 14 attack can kill lena who has 3 def and16 odd HP?

you need to stop confusing "attack" with "kill"

If Cain can't gain a C, then how can Frey,

Frey will get it before he does, due to much better starting lance rank, as well as a little extra from prolouge 2.

and Frey is almost identical to Cain, yet Frey is still above Abel.

Frey's AS situation>Cain's. Frey starts doubling earlier than Cain. Frey can use the javelin earlier than Cain. That simple.

Thus, given Frey will also not have 9 speed, by Ch 1,

No, not by C1, but he's still getting there before Cain is.

Oh here's a good one. Oh yes, let's use Est above Lena, oh that doesn't violate any logic, oh no sir. Obviously Est is a useable cleric, clearly.

Christ, will you stop taking what I say COMPLETELY the wrong way? I never said "use est over Lena", I said Est can have C staves by the final chapter. It's not that Lena isn't getting any credit for one turn warp, it's that EVERY unit who can use warp is already getting credit for it [staves>bottom tier for a reason] so it does nothing for her position. And why should it? Warp isn't exclusive to her, just like it isn't exclusive to Merric. Must you ALWAYS make something so simple so ridiculously complicated? There's no reason why Lena, or ANY unit with C staves should get extra credit for one turn warp since even Captain Gordin can assist in one turn warp. See how much good one turn warp does for Est? She's still dead last in her own tier, and I assure you she's not going to budge.

You can also pick Karel over Harken.

Call me when Karel's as good as Harken at using swords, and I'll acknowledge the relevance of your point. Alternativley, call me when Lena can use a warp staff better than anybody else in the final chapter. Lena is higher than Etzel because she fails slightly LESS at combat and has a lot more use than him. It has NOTHING to do with one turn warp, since he can do that just as good as her.

Oh, only the people writing a tier list, that's all.

except that I was discussing one turn warp and NOTHING ELSE. Of course Lena's better than him overall. But what does that matter when you do one turn warp? She can't warp further than him, and a unit with 1 in all stats warps just as well as a unit with 30 in all stats.

Sacrificing a huge chunk of your forces for her is not.

OH NOES. However shall I beat the game without the epic win of CAPTAIN GORDIN, DEFENDER OF EARTH, and his sidekick, ROSHEA THE BOY WONDER, and Jagen Pennyworth, his loyal butler? The usage you get out of Athena and generics and the extra EXP>>>>>>>>>>>>who you kill to go to gaidens

How can Merric be C tomes if you're using him as a cleric?

Because promotion to sage gives him 30 tome WEXP. Even if he gained NO WEXP, he's still good for Blizza.

as Catria can solo the map.

No, I said that Catria could take out the ballista and tank the units near it. And given that killing other shooters is one of the only things shooters are good for, this kills a lot of the point of using them, no? Also, you said Thunderbolt, not Pacyderm, the entire reason why I bought up the enemy ballista in the first place.

Julian above her? Athena above her?

Both of them can kill things on her own, and Athena has flight and good durability to boot.

Lena has greater attack that Julian

but worse AS, so Julian actually wins offense since he can actually double

who is completly useless in any combat role aside from using armorslayers, which are better off in many other unit's hands before his.

if he's still at level 3, sure

His thief role is inferior to marth since he can't survive

Even in H5, he can take two hits before going down. In NM it takes about five, lol.

plus she can deal significant damage to any enemy in the game,

but can only do so with a tome she can use less than three times per chapter, and how many times must I say it? Killing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>significant damage. Julian can kill, and doesn't need to rely on special tomes to do so. Lena can kill, but only by relying on a special tome. Julian wins. By far.

Athena requires you to kill off a dozen units to get her

we'd have a problem if she actually required you to kill off anybody GOOD, but I think we can live without the likes of Captain Gordin, old man J, and the Riffster. Not to mention Machis, he's just going to cause tension between Julian and Lena's little love affair anyway. You're generally going to the gaidens weither you use Athena or not since the extra baggage in your team does nothing but take up space, and generics/gaidens>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>extra space

and becomes slightly worse than 90% of the cavaliers and pegasai you would have gotten anyway, even if she is good.

Even comparing to the cavaliers is great, since, you know, they're some of the best units in the game.

Also, the very idea that Vyland could possibly>Athena is very lol.

Merric is already healing on every turn, bar the first. Stopping to barrier is not only blatantly farming, but also impossible since he doesn't *have* a D in staves for 15 turns, starting ch 5, and Ch 5 should NOT take 15 turns. So barrier won't help him. Then you've still got another 22 heals to go. On maps that barely last 10 turns, that's really pushing it. I mean I know you like farming and all, but really, that's pushing it. Especially given you have lena to heal with as well, since you already told me that tier lists don't effect EXP priority. Yeah, this isn't likely.

I'm going by what you said, not what I said. You clearly said Merric could use warp in 3-4 chapters.

by the way, it's not farming if Merric has nothing better to do, ie your units are all at full health. He can easily get off a few shots of it at the beginning of a chapter.

[slax]

The only possible way one character will = another is if they both start out with the same stats, the same levels, the same weapons, the same support options, and the same join time, and were placed in such a way on a perfectly symmetrical map that they would both be equally useful for that chapter.

This is not the case. One is still going to be better than the other, even if the gap is tiny. Starting with a D in lances and starting a chapter earlier is plenty enough to put Frey above Cain.

Cain < Frey. That's a given.

No, he's not almost useless. His growths do not warrant putting him in low tier, and his utility can still exist. Can he drop because of his poor starting strength and starting HP? Quite possibly. Will he drop into low/bottom tier? Of course not. He doesn't deserve that.

Also, we're assuming that Julian is getting adequate EXP during training, and is on an adequately sized team. It doesn't matter who is being removed in his place, what matters is if he's a quality enough unit to still be good which is how his tier list placing will belong.

Did I say put him in low tier?

I think that covers it.

1. How?

You're using heal and then mend, why not use two heals? That's a big waste of a mend.

2. Personally I see it as Abel > Frey > Cain. I'm guessing there was an assumption that Frey would start doubling at the same time as Abel.

I'd be fine with that, I just want to see consistency in the list.

3. He isn't hard to train and isn't reliant on "very good weapons"... He's doing fine with an Iron sword when he comes in and can adjust to steel sword (and continue doubling) in about 2 level ups. It's not so much that there's preference on him for the Devil Sword, it's just more suitable (for him and other high luck units with low STR) and less consequential since by the time you get it (chapter 20... this may be something that needs to be fixed on the main site since on chapter 21 I have 2 Devil Swords...), every other sword user is probably 1 rounding everything so giving the Devil Sword to one of your main fighters would just be needless overkilling putting that unit at risk if he has to double to kill even with a Devil Sword. Since Julian has high luck and low STR, It's unlikely that the curse will activate and that low STR of his means he'd take less damage from the curse.

"less damage" is still about half his health. I don't know how a devil sword calculates its backfire, so I can't comment there, but the reality is that even if he's swapping to a steel sword, he's using up resources that could be going to other units, and you really don't get that many swords early game to allow Julian free roam of the better weapons, and he will have a hard time levelling since he has to share the exp pool with a dozen units that, according to B2B, won't have enough enemies to kill earlygame to make him practical in the lategame.

Example: Let's compare the Devil Sword on a Hero Barst of 50 HP, 21 STR, C rank Swords, 24 LCK and on the Lena I used earlier (29 HP, 5 STR as a Swordmaster, C rank, 30 Luck) on a chapter 21 enemy.

The enemy is a Paladin with 30 HP and 10 DEF. Barst is doing 28 Damage with each hit with a backfire rate of 7% x 2. Like I said before, needless overkilling and it's just setting up your character for a higher chance at the curse rate if he's not 1HKOing (not to mention that he's losing more than half of his HP if that curse kicks in and let's not forget that Barst has above average luck). Lena with just 5 STR is 12 and doubling... If this was Julian, he'd likely have a B in swords at this point and 7 STR would be easy to reach so he doesn't have much trouble killing lategame units like this one.

Yes, but like I already said, there simply aren't enough units in earlygame (according to b2b) to train Julian with, I mean he said cavaliers aren't going to have enough enemies to attack, so given Julian can't level up at an equal rate (being unable to OHKO in earlygame for a few levels), and becomes harder and harder to train for every level he's underlevelled.

Why exactly do you say that Julian is hard to train? Because he's not 1 rounding in the first chapters he's in?

Because he shares his exp pool with too many units.

And I never said shed be killed in one hit. I already said two. The point is, lasting another hit>>>healing 1 more HP

Ballista as your only means of reaching a certian enemy is ridcliously situational.

And getting your healer attacked twice is also ridcliously situational. Face it, if your healer is getting attacked that often, you've got problems.

not in more than two turn bursts, but your units aren't getting a kill every single turn. Merric is often getting a heal every single turn.

you need to stop confusing "attack" with "kill"

As do you, see I said Cavaliers can go off and attack to get weapon level, you said then can't kill. Who's confusing what now?

Frey will get it before he does, due to much better starting lance rank, as well as a little extra from prolouge 2.

Frey's AS situation>Cain's. Frey starts doubling earlier than Cain. Frey can use the javelin earlier than Cain. That simple.

No, not by C1, but he's still getting there before Cain is.

That's why frey is above Cain, not abel.

Christ, will you stop taking what I say COMPLETELY the wrong way? I never said "use est over Lena", I said Est can have C staves by the final chapter. It's not that Lena isn't getting any credit for one turn warp, it's that EVERY unit who can use warp is already getting credit for it [staves>bottom tier for a reason] so it does nothing for her position. And why should it? Warp isn't exclusive to her, just like it isn't exclusive to Merric. Must you ALWAYS make something so simple so ridiculously complicated? There's no reason why Lena, or ANY unit with C staves should get extra credit for one turn warp since even Captain Gordin can assist in one turn warp. See how much good one turn warp does for Est? She's still dead last in her own tier, and I assure you she's not going to budge.

calm down mate, you're going ballistic here. It's simple logic, and if you take the time out from going berserk and actually think about what you're doing maybe you will have a chance of understanding where I'm coming from. "Every warp user gets used" -how many warp users are there? Merric, Lena, Elice, Boah, gotoh and Etzel(who does not have C). You've already siad you're not using gotoh. Etzel requires you to lose half your forces, obviouly a very high opportunity cost. No other unit comes with enough warp weapon level, and to level them up to C demands absolute babying, since you're going to have to use a unit completely unsuited to it, Est is not going to use warp because that means using est for a chapter, a chapter where you should have been using Lena because Lena is ridiculously better than Est. so like I said, you can give credit to Est, but you're choosing karel over harken. The only other unit, realistically, is Linde, but even she requires babying to a large extent.

Now, based on the facts that 1- a tier list must be logical 2- a tier list counts opportunity costs and 3- a tier list does not favour babying, then who are you left with? Only 4 units. Thus the warp credit goes only to those 4 units, of which Lena is the second best, so obviously, Lena should be warping. Realistically the only other option is Elice, whom I would have accepted if you'd said her, but you didn't. So no, I'm not making this complicated, you are, since you're basically throwing out all the rules of a tier list purely to screw over lena.

Call me when Karel's as good as Harken at using swords, and I'll acknowledge the relevance of your point. Alternativley, call me when Lena can use a warp staff better than anybody else in the final chapter. Lena is higher than Etzel because she fails slightly LESS at combat and has a lot more use than him. It has NOTHING to do with one turn warp, since he can do that just as good as her.

Etzel doesn't come with the ability to use warp. That means you have to use him. That's an opportunity cost right there. Even ignoring the fact you have to lose most of your troops, he still is hardly worth it. No, the only unit I think can be used over Lena in this isntance is Elice and Boah, since they are the only ones with no opportunity cost involved.

except that I was discussing one turn warp and NOTHING ELSE. Of course Lena's better than him overall. But what does that matter when you do one turn warp? She can't warp further than him, and a unit with 1 in all stats warps just as well as a unit with 30 in all stats.

Because he can't use warp. How do you get him warp? by using him. How do you use him? In some other mission. So obviously, some other mission is relevant.

OH NOES. However shall I beat the game without the epic win of CAPTAIN GORDIN, DEFENDER OF EARTH, and his sidekick, ROSHEA THE BOY WONDER, and Jagen Pennyworth, his loyal butler? The usage you get out of Athena and generics and the extra EXP>>>>>>>>>>>>who you kill to go to gaidens

It's more than 3 units FYI. And even if you do outweigh her use, which I'm not saying it doesn't, the fact is lena comes with no opp. costs, and is still usable. Is usable + no opp. cost > than usable but has an opp. cost? Well that's what I'm trying to ask you, but you keep going on tangents.

Because promotion to sage gives him 30 tome WEXP. Even if he gained NO WEXP, he's still good for Blizza.

No, I said that Catria could take out the ballista and tank the units near it. And given that killing other shooters is one of the only things shooters are good for, this kills a lot of the point of using them, no? Also, you said Thunderbolt, not Pacyderm, the entire reason why I bought up the enemy ballista in the first place.

I actually said Pachyderm first, but I'm sure you can read better than me. Tunderbolt's 10 uses should already be up by this map anyway, meaning you're probably only going to use it once, to get pachyderm, since you won't be getting hammerene fast enough to thunderbolt any of the nearby ballistas

Both of them can kill things on her own, and Athena has flight and good durability to boot.

but worse AS, so Julian actually wins offense since he can actually double

But Julian has to use his exp pool with a ton of other units, meaning his levels will come much slower, unless favouritism in involved, than Lena, and quickly becomes unable to do significant damgae, even on nm 4 strength is very very little, and 50% growth doesn't mean much when he's got so many other units blocking his actual ability to grow. Not to mention that he has a limited weapon pool as well.

if he's still at level 3, sure

Even in H5, he can take two hits before going down. In NM it takes about five, lol.

At level 30, sure. See this works both ways. Obviously I was talking about earlygame, and if he's tanking 5 hits in earlygame, then there's something wrong with your RNG.

but can only do so with a tome she can use less than three times per chapter, and how many times must I say it? Killing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>significant damage. Julian can kill, and doesn't need to rely on special tomes to do so. Lena can kill, but only by relying on a special tome. Julian wins. By far.

Like I said, level disadvantage, and really, how is julian is killing anything in the earlygame without a special sword? (other than thieves) Iron he won't kill just about everything, and steels really aren't common that early, even with them he won't be ohko'ing rapidly, since he's so frail. Realistically, earlygame he's like Lena is lategame, just without the range advantage.

we'd have a problem if she actually required you to kill off anybody GOOD, but I think we can live without the likes of Captain Gordin, old man J, and the Riffster. Not to mention Machis, he's just going to cause tension between Julian and Lena's little love affair anyway. You're generally going to the gaidens weither you use Athena or not since the extra baggage in your team does nothing but take up space, and generics/gaidens>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>extra space

Even comparing to the cavaliers is great, since, you know, they're some of the best units in the game.

Still, no opportunity cost > low opportunity cost.

Also, the very idea that Vyland could possibly>Athena is very lol.

I said your cavaliers, not your wannabes XD

I'm going by what you said, not what I said. You clearly said Merric could use warp in 3-4 chapters.

5+3-4 =/= 7. He should be warping by the END of chapter 8, not the beginning.

by the way, it's not farming if Merric has nothing better to do, ie your units are all at full health. He can easily get off a few shots of it at the beginning of a chapter.

Yeah, like, I dunno. One. Big difference that's going to make.

Edited January 9, 2009 by slax

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1. You're using heal and then mend, why not use two heals? That's a big waste of a mend.

2. "less damage" is still about half his health. I don't know how a devil sword calculates its backfire, so I can't comment there, but the reality is that even if he's swapping to a steel sword, he's using up resources that could be going to other units, and you really don't get that many swords early game to allow Julian free roam of the better weapons, and he will have a hard time levelling since he has to share the exp pool with a dozen units that, according to B2B, won't have enough enemies to kill earlygame to make him practical in the lategame.

3 Yes, but like I already said, there simply aren't enough units in earlygame (according to b2b) to train Julian with, I mean he said cavaliers aren't going to have enough enemies to attack, so given Julian can't level up at an equal rate (being unable to OHKO in earlygame for a few levels), and becomes harder and harder to train for every level he's underlevelled.

4. Because he shares his exp pool with too many units.

1. The mend was in response to you thinking that Merric wouldn't get EXP if Lena's mending... Of course 2 Heals would often end up better. He wasn't suggestion that you should do that just saying that Lena can use Mend and Merric could still get EXP...

2, 3 and 4. It's not always half his HP. 31% - Character's luck is the activation rate of the curse. Wait what? You don't get many swords? THERE'S PLENTY OF MONEY IN THIS GAME FOR THAT TO BE A CONCERN.

You talk as if EVERY unit that's gonna be used will always use swords. At the time you get Julian (and the following few chapters), only 2 Mercs can exist till you get Caesar and your other sword users will be either 2 Myrmidons (which suck) or your cavaliers who can through the entire game with just lances and Marth who doesn't even need training in the early game since you can just forge his rapier with enough MT to 1 round cavaliers when they become the most common enemies. Seriously, why would the fact that Julian is stuck to swords be of much concern? Again, you get plenty of money and the silver card for this to be such a concern. If money was an issue, I wouldn't forge shit.

EXP pool... Doesn't the same shit apply to every1? Also, you're assuming that every1's actually gonna use many of the early game characters as main fighters. There's enough EXP for you to evenly level a handful of units including Julian, you could just have him attack enemies before killing them with some1 who's 1 rounding for some EXP and it's not like it's impossible to get EXP by killing units either.

[Dat Nick]

And getting your healer attacked twice is also ridcliously situational. Face it, if your healer is getting attacked that often, you've got problems.

It's still more useful than 1 more HP healed, which doesn't even make a difference

As do you, see I said Cavaliers can go off and attack to get weapon level, you said then can't kill. Who's confusing what now?

Cavaliers are also balancing between two different weapons, so they're not hitting an A in either weapon before Merric does.

That's why frey is above Cain, not abel.

sounds fair to me

calm down mate, you're going ballistic here

.

It's hard when you constantly insist on giving Lena a monopoly you KNOW she doesn't deserve.

how many warp users are there? Merric, Lena, Elice, Boah, gotoh and Etzel(who does not have C).

and riff

and wendel

and maria

and anybody who you reclass into a bishop

and generic bishops

Xane, even

You've already siad you're not using gotoh.

Probably not, not definitly not

Etzel requires you to lose half your forces, obviouly a very high opportunity cost.

it's a good thing I don't have to kill off anybody good, or else this might actually be an issue. It is universally known amongst players with more than two licks of common sense that gaidens=good.

No other unit comes with enough warp weapon level,

You don't need to. C staves is easy to get.

and to level them up to C demands absolute babying,

Healing 20 times in 20+ chapters is considered babying? Get real.

so like I said, you can give credit to Est

I'm not giving extra credit to Est. I'm not giving extra credit to Lena. I'm not giving extra credit to ANYBODY, including Merric. What part of this are you not getting? This is why I say you make things so easy to understand so ridiculously hard.

of which Lena is the second best, so obviously, Lena should be warping.

Except she's NOT the second best. As far as warp staff using go, Boa, Merric, Lena, and generic bishop #529623734736 are all tied.

So no, I'm not making this complicated, you are, since you're basically throwing out all the rules of a tier list purely to screw over lena.

How is not giving Lena something she doesn't deserve screwing her over? Many units can use the warp staff in the final chapter, there's no reason why she gets extra credit for it.

Etzel doesn't come with the ability to use warp.

He will by the final chapter, so this is more than a moot point.

That means you have to use him. That's an opportunity cost right there.

OH NOES! I CAN'T BRING GENERIC SWORDMASTER # 587502376 TO A FEW CHAPTERS SINCE I NEED TO GIVE ETZEL THAT SLOT TO HEAL, SUCKING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM MY TEAM, EXCEPT I'LL HAVE AN UGLY GREYED OUT GENERIC SWORDMASTER IN MY UNIT SELECT SCREEN! THE HOOOOOOORRROOOOORRRRRRR!!!

Even ignoring the fact you have to lose most of your troops,

I lose nobody good, and going to the gaidens does nothing but help the units I'm using. Point status: Irrelevant.

by using him. How do you use him? In some other mission. So obviously, some other mission is relevant.

Etzel must be bought in to about three chapters, in the back healing, providing no punishment to the team. Wow, he sucks. Etzel for Est tier, BELOW Est!

It's more than 3 units FYI.

I still don't have to kill anybody good.

Captain Gordin

Shiida

Draug

Bord

Old man Jagen

Ricardo

Roshea

Nobody is missing these guys. You can't even bring more than about 13 units per chapter, so after you select your team, the rest are just dead weight anyway.

Is usable + no opp. cost > than usable but has an opp. cost?

what opportunity cost? Oh, killing off a bunch of crappy units nobody gives a **** about anyway?

actually said Pachyderm first, but I'm sure you can read better than me. Tunderbolt's 10 uses should already be up by this map anyway, meaning you're probably only going to use it once, to get pachyderm

So repairing thunderbolt is a waste of hammerene. I'm glad you agree. kthx next case.

But Julian has to use his exp pool with a ton of other units

Whoa, what's this?! So does Zagaro! Zagaro for bottom tier!

and quickly becomes unable to do significant damgae

which goes away the second he gets the steel sword

At level 30, sure. See this works both ways. Obviously I was talking about earlygame, and if he's tanking 5 hits in earlygame, then there's something wrong with your RNG.

in the earlygame he sucks...for like, 4 chapters, tops. Then he gets the steel sword and has great offense throughout the rest of the game.

Like I said, level disadvantage, and really, how is julian is killing anything in the earlygame without a special sword?

Hm? Since when was a plain old steel sword any special?

and steels really aren't common that early,

They're BUYABLE in CHAPTER FOUR, one chapter after you get Julian, at which point he probably won't be using the sword anyway.

Realistically, earlygame he's like Lena is lategame, just without the range advantage.

Except he has about 1.5 more than Lena's HP and more than double her defense.

Still, no opportunity cost > low opportunity cost.

Except this opportunity cost doesn't matter since Etzel isn't sticking around for that long at all. He hits C staves, and POOF, he's gone. Wow. That was a RIDCLIOUS amount of babying I had to do. I daresay it's easier to get Est to 20/20 without arena abuse!

I said your cavaliers, not your wannabes XD

So, essentially, your only argument for Athena sucking is that she's not as good as three of the highest ranked units in the game.

5+3-4 =/= 7. He should be warping by the END of chapter 8, not the beginning.

but you warped chapter 8. How is he getting any WEXP in chapter 8?

Yeah, like, I dunno. One.

try two before enemies come in contact, more on some maps. Also any turn where all units are at full health.