So...let's talk tiers.

[Rodykitty]

In H5, Segdar's slightly higher Def becomes more pronounced even as a General, since everything pretty much doubles them now, and he has to get healed less often. When you're getting swarmed by 3 enemies and doubled, having one more def means you take 6 less damage per round. As a Hero, they'll both generally get 2HKOed for a long time, iirc.

Still a very close race obviously, more of a judgement call than anything.

Well, I don't care who is better, just if there's a small enough gap to warrant putting them in the same tier for once, which is sounding like the case since you call it a close race.

[Mekkah]

I would just put them all in whatever tier you have above top, as Sedgar > Wolf > Xane. Or Xane > Sedgar > Wolf if you desire.

[grandjackal]

In H5, Segdar's slightly higher Def becomes more pronounced even as a General, since everything pretty much doubles them now, and he has to get healed less often. When you're getting swarmed by 3 enemies and doubled, having one more def means you take 6 less damage per round. As a Hero, they'll both generally get 2HKOed for a long time, iirc.

Still a very close race obviously, more of a judgement call than anything.

Not to mention worse offense than others due to a bad start as heroes AND leveling even less due to stronger enemies meaning they unable to expose themselves as much.

Sedgar's still not taking magic well due to lower health and worse luck (as a crit to him with magic spells something close to doom for him). That and Wolf's 1 speed over Sedgar could save his ass against mages, as I recall they're slow as hell in normal mode so in H5 I would think their speed didn't get to such high levels. If they did, ignore that bit.

I say this to bring them closer together as a note.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Sedgar's still not taking magic well due to lower health and worse luck (as a crit to him with magic spells something close to doom for him). That and Wolf's 1 speed over Sedgar could save his ass against mages, as I recall they're slow as hell in normal mode so in H5 I would think their speed didn't get to such high levels. If they did, ignore that bit.

There are only a couple of chapters where Mages are problematic, and even then you can Class Change to Hero specifically for these chapters and also take advantage of Pure Waters to soften the hits taken. Edited March 10, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

There are only a couple of chapters where Mages are problematic, and even then you can Class Change to Hero specifically for these chapters and also take advantage of Pure Waters to soften the hits taken.

If we're making them heroes for this chapter, wouldn't pure waters go to those with range, since they'd have an E for axes, thus no hand axes? Sedgar still has worse luck anyways. Those chapters are annoying too, like Kahdien (mages, dracoknights, wanting to get the fuck away from HIM.), and the dark tower (there's plenty of swarm guys there, very).

In fact, isn't his luck a bad factor into his durability? Having better luck means Wolf's durability won't get randomly gimped as much. Considering H5's enemies are actually capable of it, methinks it should be mulled over.

[Rodykitty]

If we're making them heroes for this chapter, wouldn't pure waters go to those with range, since they'd have an E for axes, thus no hand axes?

If you want range, then Pure Waters will help keep them from being ripped apart as Generals. Heroes are to ensure they aren't getting doubled. Mages shouldn't be too much of an issue if you know what you're doing.

In fact, isn't his luck a bad factor into his durability?

No.

[grandjackal]

If you want range, then Pure Waters will help keep them from being ripped apart as Generals. Heroes are to ensure they aren't getting doubled. Mages shouldn't be too much of an issue if you know what you're doing.

If they're heroes, they're not retaliating to the mages OR those javelin wielding dracoknights while getting picked apart by them. If they're generals, they need pure waters to not be torn apart by mages (which others can do anyways like Barst), and HE is coming to town to rip them a new asshole. If we know what we're doing, then what we're doing is having these guys one way or another not do much. As for the tower, they're still sitting ducks to swarm.

No.

And why the hell not? Having no chance to be crit hit > having the chance.

This is Abel vs. Cain all over again, isn't it?

[Rodykitty]

Magic users will die fairly easily. Even if a Hero lures a Mage and doesn't counter attack without a Hand Axe, that Mage is pretty much dead the next turn. If they counter attack as Generals, dead or severely damaged mage.

Sedgar and Wolf are fairly absorbent with their insane HP.

They don't care about Dracoknights. They have a ton of Def, remember?

All Chapters 15 & 23 will really mean is that they can't solo these chapters, but they still have tools to survive them.

And why the hell not? Having no chance to be crit hit > having the chance.

You don't need a lot of luck to avoid being crit.

[grandjackal]

Magic users will die fairly easily. Even if a Hero lures a Mage and doesn't counter attack without a Hand Axe, that Mage is pretty much dead the next turn. If they counter attack as Generals, dead or severely damaged mage.

Sedgar and Wolf are fairly absorbent with their insane HP.

They don't care about Dracoknights. They have a ton of Def, remember?

All Chapters 15 & 23 will really mean is that they can't solo these chapters, but they still have tools to survive them.

-The time not countering is time spent not getting exp. Besides, always nice to have more free hands the next turn not spent ganging up on these pricks.

- Yes, which Wolf has more of.

- Not as Heroes. Granted they still got quite a bit, but that doesn't stop them and mages from picking at them. Sedgar's probably got a bit more defense by now, but Wolf has more HP for the mage shots. Luck too. 2 base is hard to get out of with how sorta slow Sedgar still levels up, even with 45% growth, you can't tell me those dracoknights aren't pulling chances on Sedgar. Besides, more bows against the draco-pricks, the better. Wolf has better strength...

- Indeed, but I'm comparing Sedgar to Wolf in performance to the team, not the rest of the team in general. Wolf's luck and HP are a factor in these chapters as defense is useless to magic, but you still have HP.

You don't need a lot of luck to avoid being crit.

Not with Sedgar's luck base, growth and leveling speed. He doesn't level up too slow, but it's slow enough to make it a factor. It at least is a factor at the start.

[Dat Nick]

I find that unbelievable, and it's not like Wolf has nothing to counter it.

Oh, THIS ought to be good.

He starts with 1 more Spd, for one, so he stops getting doubled slightly earlier.

um, wrong mode

this is the NM list. They want the hero class. In which both of them always double everything, in which case that 1 base spd lead is irrelevant.

3 more base Luk also exists for the CEV it adds - nothing big, but it's there, as well as 20% more growth.

It's not even there, since Zag's not even looking at crit chances.

However, he has a significant 20% Str growth lead.

the relevance of this on a mode which Vyland can one round everything endgame with an iron sword is astounding.

That can very well be argued as useful (or useless) as Zagaro's 20% def growth lead.

No, not even.

80% growth and 100% growth aren't all that much different. The drop from 85% to 65% is far more significant.

also mind that whilst enemies are epic fail at taking hits, they aren't TOTALLY fail at dishing it out. Merric gets 3HKOd in the later portions of NM, and the cavs can die if left without healing too long.

When you think everything as a General, I'd rather do more damage so others can finish off more easily, or I can do it more easily myself.

yeah, just one little detail you left out.

This is NM, so they don't want the General class. Overkill def and raepd move. Plus no handaxes [handaxes>Javvies] And they can't cross the river in C14, for what it's worth.

Or when you're a Hero and doubling, I'd rather do more damage when doubling.

too bad it's not going to make a difference since both of them are going to rape everything with steel

but huh, the gap doesn't seem that big now that I recheck averages. Not sure if that's FEP or if I was just taking drugs at the time when re-evaluating them.

updating when I can be assed

Edited March 10, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Rodykitty]

I had forgotten that this was NM when making my arguments. I kept thinking H5.

[Mekkah]

You can go "no this is lol NM" on my arguments all you want, but you still haven't shown why 20% extra def growth warrants an entire tier gap.

80% growth and 100% growth aren't all that much different. The drop from 85% to 65% is far more significant.

It's a 20% difference, or .2 per level either way, so I'm not seeing your point. The only significant difference is that 100% growth cannot be RNG-screwed, while 80% can be, but that would be in Wolf's favor, not Sedgar's.

Also, as much as they'd like the Hero class, you can only fit 2 Mercs/Heroes until your team until Caesar joins, and from there you can have three. Ogma, Barst, the other Ogma-Fighter that isn't bad, Darros, Caesar and Kashim all do not mind the Merc class. So their General class does matter, since it's likely their next best option.

[grandjackal]

Woops, got carried away with the H5 stuff. Pardon moi.

Wouldn't Wolf be BETTER this mode for being invincible to physical attacks anyways, having more durability to magic and doing more on the counter?

[Dat Nick]

You can go "no this is lol NM" on my arguments all you want, but you still haven't shown why 20% extra def growth warrants an entire tier gap.

A: I conceded that it's not a tier gap, which you would have gathered if you read the entire post

B: I TOLD you why defense is more important, outright.

It's a 20% difference, or .2 per level either way, so I'm not seeing your point. The only significant difference is that 100% growth cannot be RNG-screwed, while 80% can be, but that would be in Wolf's favor, not Sedgar's.

In RNG terms, 80 is likely to get a stat up a lot more often than not, despite what actual averages say. It's not at all unplausable for him to miss strength only one or two or three times in all of his ninteen levels. 65% isn't nearly as foolproof.

Yes, this is nitpicky, but you can't ignore the possibility. Zagaro gets RNG screwed less often than Wolf does.

Ogma, Barst, the other Ogma-Fighter that isn't bad, Darros, Caesar and Kashim all do not mind the Merc class.

why Kashim? He's Darros. Only he's worse. Same story with Cord. never mind that Ogma is rather meh [minor HP/str leads on Zagaro/Wolf at jointime at best, less move, no 1-2 range, roughly the same EXP gain, etc]

Edited March 10, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Mekkah]

B: I TOLD you why defense is more important, outright.

All you said was

also mind that whilst enemies are epic fail at taking hits, they aren't TOTALLY fail at dishing it out. Merric gets 3HKOd in the later portions of NM, and the cavs can die if left without healing too long.

but it's a blunt statement with maybe true but irrelevant "proof".

In RNG terms, 80 is likely to get a stat up a lot more often than not, despite what actual averages say. It's not at all unplausable for him to miss strength only one or two or three times in all of his ninteen levels. 65% isn't nearly as foolproof.

Yes, this is nitpicky, but you can't ignore the possibility. Zagaro gets RNG screwed less often than Wolf does.

"more likely to get a stat up more often than not"? What kind of argument is that? Even 51% gets a stat up more often than not. On average and on probability scales, the difference between both of these is 20%.

On the contrary, it's Wolf who is RNG proof with the 100% growth. He can never get screwed with that.

why Kashim? He's Darros. Only he's worse. Same story with Cord. never mind that Ogma is rather meh [minor HP/str leads on Zagaro/Wolf at jointime at best, less move, no 1-2 range, roughly the same EXP gain, etc]

They're all floating somewhere between Mid and High, so there is a possibility of at least one of them in play, and Zagawolf turning Hero makes them worse by significant amounts. Because of that, you cannot 100% assume they will be Heroes, so their next best class (General) has to be taken into account. And hey, you said yourself that surviving is harder and more important than killing.

[Dat Nick]

but it's a blunt statement with maybe true but irrelevant "proof".

lessee

enemies range from 22 to 27 atk latergame

Defensive numbers aren't even worth mentioning since anybody worth their salt [And even those worth less than their salt, hai Radd] are going to be killing with steel, or, in case of the really sucky ones, silver. Hell, Barst is still one rounding everything with Iron.

You've played this game: You know NM enemies are made of paper. Why should I have to prove to you a fact you already know?

On average and on probability scales, the difference between both of these is 20%.

Except it's not that simple.

85% def growth is a hell of a lot more reliable than 65%, and as mentioned before, Def matters more.

100% from 80% isn't much of a boost at all. It goes from "overkilled strength" to "overkilled strength." By the time Zag actually misses a str levelup, it's likely he won't even need strength anymore. Wolf could always use more defense.

On the contrary, it's Wolf who is RNG proof with the 100% growth. He can never get screwed with that.

and on the reverse contrary, he has it in a far less important stat.

And hey, you said yourself that surviving is harder and more important than killing.

that's the thing

They're still durable enough as Heros on NM to not get killed unless you deliberately suicide them or something [give them one or two levels and now they're unkillable, or at least close]. Never mind that this is a point in the game where they're itching for kills, badly.

[Lord Raven]

By the time Zag actually misses a str levelup, it's likely he won't even need strength anymore.

Which is Level... 4 or 5 on average? So you're telling me he doesn't need strength anymore once he hits the 11 mark as a hero? <_< Edited March 11, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Which is Level... 4 or 5 on average? So you're telling me he doesn't need strength anymore once he hits the 11 mark as a hero?

...Why would he? That's more than enough to one round with steel sword/axe

Edited March 11, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Lord Raven]

Is it really? I really don't think that's right. Especially since he is only getting 13 EXP per level STARTING OUT, and this lowers pretty well.

[Dat Nick]

Especially since he is only getting 13 EXP per level STARTING OUT,

as opposed to the ~20 Marth/Barst/Abel/Cain/Frey/Nabarl/whothefuckever get

big fuckin difference, Zagaro to replace Est in fail tier

Is it really?

Yes, it is, really.

Including weapon ranks, that's about 20 dmg twice? That's raping C8 guys. And that's probably me being a little too nice...to the poor pathetic C8 enemies.

and this lowers pretty well.

wolf's lowers faster

So why aren't you taking the piss out on Wolf for it?

[Lord Raven]

as opposed to the ~20 Marth/Barst/Abel/Cain/Frey/Nabarl/whothefuckever get

Marth makes five kills. He gets a level up.

Sedgar gets five kills. He gets 65 EXP.

Pretty big difference.

Including weapon ranks, that's about 20 dmg twice? That's raping C8 guys. And that's probably me being a little too nice...to the poor pathetic C8 enemies.

He's getting five levels in two chapters? That's nuts.

[Dat Nick]

Pretty big difference.

Hardly enough to disqualify him. And you totally ignore how this fucks over Wolf more.

He's getting five levels in two chapters?

?

C5, C6, C6x, C7, can level up during C8 as well?

maybe I failed math but that's not quite adding up to two

Edited March 11, 2009 by Vyland

[Rodykitty]

Due to how insanely good Sedgar and Wolf's growths are, the stats they gain on a single level up are worth two level ups for other characters, due to how significant of boosts they are.

Plus doing non-kill chip damage gives pretty decent EXP in this game, so alongside the occasional kill they still have a source of EXP while other characters are getting levels.

[Lord Raven]

That's not my point. My point was to refute the fact that Sedgar is a good tier higher than Wolf... apparently their strength difference is "negligible" whereas their defense difference is not.

[Rodykitty]

My point was to refute the fact that Sedgar is a good tier higher than Wolf... apparently their strength difference is "negligible" whereas their defense difference is not.

Uh...

You're kind of late to the party on this one.

*points to both opening posts on this and the H5 topic*

Edited March 11, 2009 by Chainey