Don Draper Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 We're using either Mekkah or the gamefaqs tier list for debating purposes, so no, Gilliam didn't get moved anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) They reach 7, which is enough to double Gilliam.Where did he get moved, exactly? Middle, from low. below forde/tana. Not before a level up or two. We're using either Mekkah or the gamefaqs tier list for debating purposes, so no, Gilliam didn't get moved anywhere. this is reinfleche's tier list. Edited January 4, 2009 by MaraeSceptre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Like I said, nobody is using reinfleche's list. We are using Mekkah's or the gamefaqs one, as they are much more refined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riariadne Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Why are we even talking about gamefaqs anyway? That tier list is incribly fail (and biased). EDIT: Anyway, the tier list is now updated to include supports. Also, Natasha's placement hugely fixed. Edited January 4, 2009 by Reinfleche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Says the guy who puts Rolf in Middle for his FE9 Tier List beacuse he likes him. That gamefaqs tier list has been debated constantly. Your tier list was was so bad that Mekkah made a 100x better one in 10 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Mekkah why is Artur > Lute? Lute's mount after promotion surely make up for her shortcomings (in comparison to Artur, anyway) pre-promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm one of the few folks who doesn't join in the "omg anima > light since light r heavy and costly and weak lols". Bishop Arthur's tomes get triple might on several occasions, some on the largest maps in the game. 11 Ephraim 12 Ephraim (not all enemies, but almost if not more than half of them) 11 Eirika 12 Eirika These don't apply if Arthur isn't promoted early (something that may or may not be a bad idea), but they're there, so bleh. Then we have 18, 20 and F where his damage output just plain owns Lute's unless she uses Excalibur. I must say 30 uses is actually a lot for those last few chapters, but nonetheless, the fact is that Arthur can one round something huge like a Cyclops with a Divine tome while Lute cannot (or not even with Elfire). And Arthur also gets C staves while Lute gets D (buyable Physics after one weapon level ftw). Oh, and Arthur has WTA over Dark magic, which actually matters in this game (Archknollgalls have huge Mt, and Gorgons have that plus the ever dangerous Stone spell), so Lute has to go Sage to match that WTA, and can't use Excalibur to match Arthur's massive offense then. They're quite close, but I'd say Slayer + earlygame win + WTA over dark > anima's slightly better stats and the option of a mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 However, Lute beats Artur in all chapters that don't have monsters that are tough as nails. Assuming both are promoted, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think Mount > slight earlygame win and WTA over dark, especially since Lute can evade more things later on than Artur can (Artur's luck starts to bite him). But personally I think the mount should be better than Slayer for the most part especially since Slayer's output is more or less the same as everyone else's; unless it's against a select few enemies (like the big things with the Axe whose name I forget and those promoted zombies). But I dunno I can't see why Artur > Lute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think Mount > slight earlygame win and WTA over dark, especially since Lute can evade more things later on than Artur can (Artur's luck starts to bite him). Hm... Lute's mount is only one extra move over Sage, rather than the usual Paladin-like movement that Rangers and friends receive. I don't know if you took that into account. For Luk, using 20/1, the gap between his and hers is ~10, their Spd is pretty much equal. And Lute either has earlier avoid supports, or more avoid from supports (depending on if Arthur takes B Tethys or B Joshua). I must admit I underestimated Lute's power output too..a solid 3 damage lead per hit, 6 per double, can easily negate if not override the leads Arthur gets when Slayering, especially since most of it happens at a point where Lute is OHKOing with Excalibur at any moment she pleases. I think I'll switch them around for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Guest Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Kyle's defensive lead are less than Forde's much better offensive lead. Except it's not. Forde has problems establishing that offensive lead, if it happens during the storyline at all, due to a combination of worse strength base/growth and Con. The way the game plays out, 5% more speed and a slightly higher base just isn't sufficient to secure one for him. Sorry. It's harder to train Forde if he has more trouble finishing weakened enemies since Kyle scores more dph and it takes less hits for enemies to grind him into dust. When neither one-rounds or both start doing it as often as another, then defensive attributes stand out over the offensive as far as their roles go. Edited January 7, 2009 by Former Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordsalmon Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Yeah, I just recently began to think Kyle>Forde. On Eirika's route, he can get Colm A, which also offsets any of Forde's minor leads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Yeah, I just recently began to think Kyle>Forde. On Eirika's route, he can get Colm A, which also offsets any of Forde's minor leads. I never looked at Kyle vs Forde too seriously, but I'm not sure why you're mentioning Colm A. Forde has Kyle, Ephraim, Franz and Eirika as support options. They're all reasonably fast supports (high base points and 3 growth except for Eirika which is 2), then 2 of them have the same affinity as Colm and another has fire, which gives most of the same benefits as light (atk, crit). So I don't see how Kyle is at a support advantage. He has Forde, Ephraim and Lute which are pretty fast, and Colm who is slightly slower, but that's only 1 more option really. I guess we could get into how viable Kyle's support options are compared to Forde's but it's mostly overlap and I don't feel like going tl;dr unless necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think the main reason why Kyle has this perceived support advantage is that he receives Avo from supports - I generally consider Avo the most important bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think the main reason why Kyle has this perceived support advantage is that he receives Avo from supports - I generally consider Avo the most important bonus. Depending on the class, you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Nothing depends on class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Rabbit Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 In Kyle's case it wouldn't matter THAT much. A pally and GK are very close in total possible avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 It's not about "total possible Avo". Class itself has nothing to do with performance - all it does is give you certain attributes: abilities to use certain weapons, ballistae, etc, as well as giving skills (Slayer, Silencer, Lockpicking, Sure Shot, etc), and it changes your caps, but those do not matter until endgame, if at all. So all Pally vs GK does is change their stats slightly (in favor of the GK), and trade axes vs lower movement. Whatever their "total possible Avo" is does not matter. What matters is that Kyle would like to avoid things: it allows you to take zero damage when you would take some otherwise. Kyle, in fact, very much likes Avo for three more reasons: - he is generally quite bulky, so he gets to be exposed to many attacks, giving him many chances to avoid - stacking on that, his chances of dying decrease drastically if he gets more Avo: 5% extra Avo helps a lot more if you die in 5 hits than if you die in 2 - he generally holds WTA, so more Avo works in conjunction with the 2 RN system, making that 5% extra Avo worth more like 7-10% extra I would say the only unit who doesn't really benefit from Avo ever is Gilliam, whose Avo is too terrible to save with anything. Well, and healers/archers (before promotion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Nothing depends on class. Well, I would look on an Armor hoping that it will dodge everything, only if he can take lots of damage with his DEF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 You're...not making sense. Are you sure you read my post? Class itself has nothing to do with performance - all it does is give you certain attributes: abilities to use certain weapons, ballistae, etc, as well as giving skills (Slayer, Silencer, Lockpicking, Sure Shot, etc), and it changes your caps, but those do not matter until endgame, if at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 So, what a tier list? Should I post mine here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Naw, we have plenty. If you have something to suggest, go with this one: -God- Seth Franz Vanessa Ephraim [Eph] Moulder Natasha Tethys [Eir] -High- Duessel [Eph] Lute Arthur Colm Kyle Forde Tethys [Eph] Ephraim [Eir] Eirika [Eir] Gerik [Eir] Saleh [Eir] -Upper Mid- Cormag [Eph] Joshua Gerik [Eph] Tana [Eir] Tana [Eph] Eirika [Eph] Gilliam Innes [Eir] Marisa [Eir] Myrrh -Lower Mid- Saleh [Eph] Garcia Cormag [Eir] Marisa [Eph] Ross Rennac -Low/Bottom- Duessel [Eir] Neimi L'Arachel Innes [Eph] Ewan Dozla Knoll Amelia Syrene -Good-For-A-Chapter- Orson Edited January 15, 2009 by Mekkah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Why is Syrene so much worse than the likes of Knoll, Amelia, Dozla, and Ewan? I know she isn't good, but is she really the worst in the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Seeing Joshua below Tana irks me, especially when there's a tier difference. Joshua has good speed, passable attack (enough to kill things later on, especially with a Killing Edge) and availability on his side... as well as ease of use. I believe he has support with stuff like Natasha, Franz and Seth as early game units, and later on Cormag and MUCH later on Knoll. He's got a Wind affinity to buff up the attack too, even if evade is better; it's not like he doesn't evade things already. Tana has supports but... her ease of use has some difficulties. Paired with low con of a Pegasus before promotion (affecting her AS and evade) and archer weak. Edited January 14, 2009 by Nathan Graves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) You are confusing Joshua's supports with Natasha's. Joshua has a Gerik support though, which is quite pwn. Natasha support doesn't help her in the slightest until she promotes, but it gives him bonuses alright. Just stupid Wind/Ice ones. Everything else I agree on. I moved down Eir Tana to right above Eph Tana, so if Joshua wants to go up further he has to defy Cormag, Saleh and :o Eir Gerik. Edited January 14, 2009 by Mekkah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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