(Relatively) Newbie Help Needed

[Alef Zero]

Hello,

I'd like to ask for some help with the game. I'm a relative novice with the series, have only played three houses and awakening (engage waiting its turn) and I've found myself rather stuck with this one.

I've just reached chapter 3, following Alm, and on the first random battle, I've lost half my team. If I wasn't playing on casual, I've have frankly thrown away my game. Is this a difficulty spike I've encountered? I feel like my only units that are doing anything are Alm, Faye and Kliff. Forsynth. Python, Clair and Clive are doing minimal dmg. and either get doubled or killed in one hit (or both in case of forsynth). Python is particularly worthless. There has been not a single encounter where I didn't lose an unit. On the other hand with Celica's team, there was only like, one situation when I did lost an unit. Is is possible my units got that rng screwed? When I promoted Clive to paladin he only gained 1 hp and 1 mov, so his stats should be fine, right? So why is he dealing 8 dmg to mages, and take 18 in return?

I like the story and especially the voice acting, but Alm's levels are just excruciating at this point. Is there a trick I'm missing?

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Posting how much you used them, stats and diffculty could be quite helpful.

Here be averages: Echoes averages - Google Tabellen

Did you promote your Villagers? What classes do Faye, Kliff, Tobin and Gray have?

Archers without Killer Bow Weapon Art (Hunters Volley) are basically worthless.

Doubling is calculated by 1 point of speed difference a unit with 8 spd doubles 7 and below, won´t be doubled by 8 speeders and willget doubled by 9 and above.

Almost all units in this game have shit Res(istance) which is the defensive stat against magic attacks and Clive is slow, so big damage.

Do you have a Ridersbane? It´s effective against horse-units. A promoted Clive should be... somewhat capable against horses. Lukas if you still have him (and used him) as well as Forsynth should be competent with it as well. 

[Alef Zero]

Faye - pegasus knight, tobin - mercenary (myrmidon right now), gray - archer (sniper now), kliff- mage, the rest have their normal classe. Lukas is a knight and clive just got paladin.

I have ridersbane, but gave it to claire - she has enough speed to still double some enemies with it, and she needs as much attack as possible, she can't deal any dmg. Only have iron and steel bows. Guess python gets out.

I've compared some characters in my game with the document you've provided, and they have the stats above, sometimes even higher.

Quote

Doubling is calculated by 1 point of speed difference a unit with 8 spd doubles 7 and below, won´t be doubled by 8 speeders and willget doubled by 9 and above.

You serious? I've always though that the 4-5 speed difference is too unbalanced, but this is insane.

Quote

Almost all units in this game have shit Res(istance) which is the defensive stat against magic attacks and Clive is slow, so big damage.

Low res is pretty usual for fire emblem, but then why do mages survive so much physical dmg? In neither TH nor awakening could they survive doubling from physical units, here I sometimes have to use three units to take out one mage.

Well, if stats are not the problem for my units, what is? Is Alm's part just much harder than Celica's? I start to regret not making one more mage a cleric for him. Gray is barely doing anything and Faye while fine, could be better used healing, I think.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Alef Zero

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

16 minutes ago, Alef Zero said:

Faye - pegasus knight, tobin - mercenary (myrmidon right now), gray - archer (sniper now), kliff- mage, the rest have their normal classe.

eh, I don´t think it should matter, but Faye is normally a cleric, Kliff/Tobin the mages, though Kliff also gets the Archer treatment I believe, Gray is Merc

17 minutes ago, Alef Zero said:

I have ridersbane, but gave it to claire - she has enough speed to still double some enemies with it, and she needs as much attack as possible, she can't deal any dmg.

the pegasus special, Clair might be an option to attack/lure or distract mages, she does have 8 base res ; if you´re having trouble killing horses look who can kill em - we just had a discussion on Clives capabilties in act 3 a month or two back and he should be modestly competent.

If you´ve recruited her, Mathilda is a frailer Clive, with basically the same offense and better resistance (recruited in Desaix castle)

19 minutes ago, Alef Zero said:

Only have iron and steel bows. Guess python gets out.

You can forge in the village after the act 1 castle in act 3 I believe? Be aware though that reinforcements can spawn (from Desaix Castle and the Dam all the way up I think) and on the world map they can get the 1st turn if they run into you and they can reinforce the actual enemy formations - indicated by 2 enemy sprites on a node.

As for Archers, no matter what, Hunters Volley, the Weapon Art from the Killer Bow is the gamechanger. If you bow, Hunters Volley makes you good.

Look here to see what gets forged into what: Forging - Serenes Forest

Look here for learned spells on a character basis: Learned Spells - Serenes Forest

24 minutes ago, Alef Zero said:

Well, if stats are not the problem for my units, what is?

I mean are you equipping your weapons and everything? Some do lower your speed (1 point of weight = -1 point of speed), though I think Iron is just +2 dmg. Mages can´t cast magic if they don´t have the HP for the cost.

If it reads just Lance or Sword that´s a basic thing with a hit modifier and nothing else.

See if you can promote units actually. Almost no reason to sit on lvls. Relevant page: Class Change - Serenes Forest

 

Explore the villages and casteles you can, there´s a lot of stuff hidden. Relevant page, in case you wanna know if you missed something:  Item Locations - Serenes Forest

[Armchair General]

2 hours ago, Alef Zero said:

Is this a difficulty spike I've encountered?

Yeah, it kind of is. Either you grind out a few levels or just fight in an wedge and give your Ridersbane to someone else

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, Alef Zero said:

Low res is pretty usual for fire emblem, but then why do mages survive so much physical dmg? In neither TH nor awakening could they survive doubling from physical units, here I sometimes have to use three units to take out one mage.

Arcanists are pretty bulky mofos. Same for Cantors, who are even worse. I find both to be some of the biggest pains in the butt in the game. It doesn't help that they often use magic with 1-3 range, which means a lot of the time, snipers and bow knights are the only units who can attack them safely. Witches, mercifully, are your stereotypical squishy wizards. Just beware, as their teleportation can be a pain in the butt.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

 Oh yeah, I forgot, check the tiles enemies stand on - SoV has the habit of putting annoying enemies on tiles with a bunch of dodge and tiles with any amount of avoid are practically everywhere.

[Shadow Mir]

15 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

 Oh yeah, I forgot, check the tiles enemies stand on - SoV has the habit of putting annoying enemies on tiles with a bunch of dodge and tiles with any amount of avoid are practically everywhere.

Related to this, magic ignores the evade boosts from terrain. This makes it perfect for any enemies parked on supplies.

Edit: Having Alm learn Subdue from the Royal Sword will make the last battle in act 3 easier. One of the enemies on that map is Delthea, a mage. You do NOT want to kill her; she is brainwashed. Instead, you need to kill the boss in that chapter. Subdue will keep her alive, and hopefully will leave her with low enough health she cannot attack anyone (her only spell is Aura, which has a big 6 HP cost; spells in this game cost HP to cast). Box her in with other units, then send an archer (snipers and bow knights have 5 range) at the boss, as the boss uses Death, a powerful spell. Killing him makes her leave the map.

Fun fact: Delthea has an alt in FEH depicting this.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Alef Zero]

Thanks for the advices. I will put the game down for now, I've spent 2 hours trying to save mathilda and I haven't been this pissed since playing ninja gaiden on master mode.

Maybe I will be back after engage, but this time definitely playing on normal.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 7/27/2023 at 12:59 PM, Alef Zero said:

When I promoted Clive to paladin he only gained 1 hp and 1 mov, so his stats should be fine, right?

When you promote a unit, they get "raised up" to class bases. The higher a unit's stats before promoting, the smaller boosts they gain. Ergo, you want to promote ASAP. Gaining more levels in a lower tier is a waste.

On 7/27/2023 at 12:59 PM, Alef Zero said:

So why is he dealing 8 dmg to mages, and take 18 in return?

Sounds like the Mire Arcanists. They do a lot of damage, especially to Clive, who has very low Resistance. I recommend Archers against them, as they can attack from outside spell range.

On 8/1/2023 at 1:41 PM, Alef Zero said:

Thanks for the advices. I will put the game down for now, I've spent 2 hours trying to save mathilda and I haven't been this pissed since playing ninja gaiden on master mode.

If you're on the "save Mathilda" map, then you must have access to the village. Have you tried forging yet? That can improve your weapons. I recommend saving the game before "evolving" your weapons, though. Some of the evolutions are great, but others present a nasty surprise.

[Mordred]

On 8/1/2023 at 10:41 AM, Alef Zero said:

Thanks for the advices. I will put the game down for now, I've spent 2 hours trying to save mathilda and I haven't been this pissed since playing ninja gaiden on master mode.

Maybe I will be back after engage, but this time definitely playing on normal.

Been awhile since I've played Valentia but from what I remember the most optimal classes for the four villagers are, Grey - Mage, Tobin - Mage, Kliff - Merc, Faye Cleric.  The second you get the Lightning Sword on Alm's path you should instantly give Kliff the sword and he should be able to ORKO pretty much everything till Lightning Sword falls off.  Do not upgrade the Royal Sword as well as it's actually a money sink and bad investment.  Do not also invest stat boosters heavily on Alm pre promotion as there's no real point unless you need the better combat immediately for the next map (only really needed pre Merc Kliff).  Kliff should also be able to dreadloop into a Bow Knight late game once you get past all the Arcanist maps.  Now this is going to sound like cope, Python is good because he is the earliest Sniper you can get that isn't a villager while still being able to benefit from double mage villagers, but unfortunately to use Python you have to grind in the Bandit's hideout with him to get him to that point pre Act 2/3 as his base level is incredibly low for some reason.  If he reaches Sniper pre Act 3 he will be very good for Arcanist forest and 3-6 (The one with all the Archers and Bow Knights) in which he will carry.  The grinding is also efficient in that other units at that time in Alm's route also wants to grind i.e. Merc Kliff getting closer to Myrmidon, Silke get to Warp, and Clive get to Paladin which makes him a lot more stronger for Zofia's gate.  The best forges on Alm's are the Ridersbane and the Killer Bow as well.  Make sure to also sell the Lightning Sword once it falls off as it gives like one whole gold coin which is super good.  Oh and don't evolve the Ridersbane into Rhomphia.  

For Celica you have like two options from what I remember on how to complete it.  Super Saber or Super Palla.  Essentially you invest pretty much everything into one of those two and let them carry that route.  Now from what I remember Super Saber is better than Super Palla however has like a more specific set up.  Or maybe it wasn't I don't exactly remember.  Dean is also better than Sonya so when you get that decision kill Sonya.  Mae and Boey are both good however Boey takes more attention to use as he has a harder time than Mae at reaching ORKO thresholds so Mae is prolly better than Boey.  From what I remember Boey is better if you are using Super Saber however Boey still needs his growths to be rigged a bit with save scumming to make it better which is super specific.  Leon is also very good but that's just cause Bow access and Killer Bows are broken.

TLDR: BEST FORGE SILVER SWORD, RIDERSBANE, KILLER BOW, ZWEIHANDER ALM SIDE FIRST ON ACT 3.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention that you should drop Tobin and Grey eventually, as mages on Alm's path fall off.  They're for the early/ early mid game.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Mordred

[Shadow Mir]

On 8/1/2023 at 12:41 PM, Alef Zero said:

Thanks for the advices. I will put the game down for now, I've spent 2 hours trying to save mathilda and I haven't been this pissed since playing ninja gaiden on master mode.

Maybe I will be back after engage, but this time definitely playing on normal.

Again, magic ignores terrain boosts to evade. Also, only the archers and some revenants (some are summoned in the cell) can attack her. By the by, killing a cantor gets rid of all their summons too.

What have ya done on Celica's end? You will have to fight one of two characters later, Deen or Sonya. The former is ten billion percent easier.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

10 hours ago, Mordred said:

Been awhile since I've played Valentia but from what I remember the most optimal classes for the four villagers are, Grey - Mage, Tobin - Mage, Kliff - Merc, Faye Cleric.

This seems like hyper-specific advice. The game is very much beatable with any potential combination of Villager promotions. The only limitations I would suggest, if someone is worried about their villagers, are "Soldier is generally the weakest classline" and "Cleric Faye is a game-changer".

11 hours ago, Mordred said:

Do not upgrade the Royal Sword as well as it's actually a money sink and bad investment.

Can't say I agree with this one. Double Lion is an incredible combat art, and helps Alm essentially one-shot a lot of foes he might not otherwise. And the stronger the Royal Sword is, the stronger a Double Lion he can pull off. Not to mention, good innate stats, and built-in Renewal. The only real flaw is that it's limited to Alm.

11 hours ago, Mordred said:

EDIT: I forgot to mention that you should drop Tobin and Grey eventually, as mages on Alm's path fall off.  They're for the early/ early mid game.

There's no deployment limit for mainline maps, so no reason not to deploy these two. If nothing else, once they've hit Sage, they could provide healing support. That said, I would agree with the notion of focusing on a "core set" of 10 or fewer units on either side. Since that is the limit of how many can be brought into dungeons.

44 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What have ya done on Celica's end? You will have to fight one of two characters later, Deen or Sonya. The former is ten billion percent easier.

As a note, you can recruit whichever one you don't fight. So if you want Sonya (the Mage), you need to fight Deen (the Myrmidon). Strangely, Deen also drops his Brave Sword upon defeat, whereas Sonya does not drop her Steel Shield. I've heard folks say "Deen > Sonya, so kill Sonya", but I don't see either one as essential. So if you're struggling, just go with whichever map is easier.

[Mordred]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:53 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This seems like hyper-specific advice. The game is very much beatable with any potential combination of Villager promotions. The only limitations I would suggest, if someone is worried about their villagers, are "Soldier is generally the weakest classline" and "Cleric Faye is a game-changer".

Can't say I agree with this one. Double Lion is an incredible combat art, and helps Alm essentially one-shot a lot of foes he might not otherwise. And the stronger the Royal Sword is, the stronger a Double Lion he can pull off. Not to mention, good innate stats, and built-in Renewal. The only real flaw is that it's limited to Alm.

There's no deployment limit for mainline maps, so no reason not to deploy these two. If nothing else, once they've hit Sage, they could provide healing support. That said, I would agree with the notion of focusing on a "core set" of 10 or fewer units on either side. Since that is the limit of how many can be brought into dungeons.

As a note, you can recruit whichever one you don't fight. So if you want Sonya (the Mage), you need to fight Deen (the Myrmidon). Strangely, Deen also drops his Brave Sword upon defeat, whereas Sonya does not drop her Steel Shield. I've heard folks say "Deen > Sonya, so kill Sonya", but I don't see either one as essential. So if you're struggling, just go with whichever map is easier.

Not really hyper specific, it's just their best classes.  You only want one merc as you don't get too many swords and Kliff is the best Merc out of the four as he has the highest base res and better bases.  Tobin gets a nice spell list that is very good early on and up to mid game so he makes the most sense as a Mage.  Grey kinda sucks and only is good as a Merc because Merc is good so his best spot without heavy investment is Mage and he has a decent spell list too.  Faye is best as a Cleric as she allows Silke to spam Warp as much as she wants while also being able to rescue.  

Royal Sword is not worth the forge as it's only really good Act 3 in which Alm isn't even good in.  Act 3 is going to be dominated by your Merc and your Cav with Ridersbane.  By Act 4 Alm promotes and gains access to Killer Bow which has allows Alm to spam Double Volley which has higher range and higher crit than Double Lion.  Royal Sword is also extremely expensive to forge (taking away money that should be used to forge the Ridersbane) while also taking about 20 rounds of combat for Alm to gain enough weapon exp to use Double Lion with it.  Alm doesn't even need to see any combat for all of Act 3 as he gets his promotion regardless at the end.  Royal Sword is really only useful as a placeholder and is more of a beginner's trap like Rhomphaia was.

When I said they should be dropped the reason I said so was due to the fact that Mage classes in general all fall off in Alm's route due to the map design and how much difficulty they have keeping up.  The only mage by then that is actually seeing any combat without slowing down your whole team is Delthea because she has such high res among an army with very little to no Res allowing her to combat other mages.  But yes I did not mean to not deploy them, having more warm bodies is better than fewer it's just that they are likely not doing much on the map past Act 1/3.  

The reason why killing Sonya is more recommended is because the Brave Sword is a decent forge that you get for free while also getting a decent Myrm with decent bases.  The Brave Sword could then be put on Saber if he want's the Combat Art from the Brave Sword or the Silver Sword you eventually forged by then.  If you're also going Super Saber you will likely also have Mae/Boey as a second carry for the team so Sonya is often redundant.  On the other hand I do believe Sonya has better pure combat so if you don't mind on missing out on a free Brave Sword you can kill Deen instead. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Mordred said:

The reason why killing Sonya is more recommended is because the Brave Sword is a decent forge that you get for free while also getting a decent Myrm with decent bases.  The Brave Sword could then be put on Saber if he want's the Combat Art from the Brave Sword or the Silver Sword you eventually forged by then.  If you're also going Super Saber you will likely also have Mae/Boey as a second carry for the team so Sonya is often redundant.  On the other hand I do believe Sonya has better pure combat so if you don't mind on missing out on a free Brave Sword you can kill Deen instead.

Deen drops the Brave Sword if you kill him, though. You're getting his Brave Sword one way or another. So the trade-off is between "Sonya plus Steel Shield" and "Deen". In fact, not recruiting Deen means Saber or Kamui can use the Brave Sword at Grieth's Citadel.

1 hour ago, Mordred said:

Royal Sword is not worth the forge as it's only really good Act 3 in which Alm isn't even good in.  Act 3 is going to be dominated by your Merc and your Cav with Ridersbane.  By Act 4 Alm promotes and gains access to Killer Bow which has allows Alm to spam Double Volley which has higher range and higher crit than Double Lion.  Royal Sword is also extremely expensive to forge (taking away money that should be used to forge the Ridersbane) while also taking about 20 rounds of combat for Alm to gain enough weapon exp to use Double Lion with it.  Alm doesn't even need to see any combat for all of Act 3 as he gets his promotion regardless at the end.  Royal Sword is really only useful as a placeholder and is more of a beginner's trap like Rhomphaia was.

I've just got to disagree with most of this. Both Double Lion and Hunter's Volley require 20 SP. But Alm can start using the Royal Sword earlier (in Act III), giving him a head start on learning the art. A struggling player who chooses to grind might even have it by the end of Act III. Hunter's Volley definitely won't be online until at least a few maps into Act IV.

Anyway, comparing the weapon stats: at base, the Royal Sword has 2 extra Mt, 10 extra Hit, and 3 less Wt. The Killer Bow has 2 extra range and 10 more Crit. The Royal Sword boasts Recovery, while the Killer Bow is anti-flier. It's a bit of an apples to (Valentian) oranges comparison, sure, but I'd rather have the Royal Sword up close, while the Killer Bow is undeniably better for fighting at range. Now, to forge either weapon to maximum rank costs 1 Gold and 150 Silver. What's the comparison look like then? It gets a bit tighter, admittedly - Royal Sword has +1 Mt, still +10 Hit, and -1 Weight, while Killer Bow retains its range, and has +15 Crit.

Now, though, let's throw the combat arts into the mix. Double Lion costs 6 HP, and grants +5 Mt, +20 Hit, and a (usually irrelevant) +10 Avoid. Hunter's Volley costs 8 HP, and gives +1 Mt, +15 Hit, and +10 Crit. So, comparing the two: Double Lion on an unforged Royal Sword has +6 Might, +15 Hit, +13 Avoid, -2 Range, and -20 Crit, relative to Hunter's Volley on an unforged Killer Bow. Meanwhile, Double Lion on a max-forged Royal Sword has +5 Mt, +15 Hit, +11 Avoid, -2 Range, and -25 Crit, relative to Hunter's Volley on a Killer Bow.

Put simply - the Royal Sword is hitting harder, and more accurately, than the Killer Bow. Its lower weight helps Alm's Avoid (and not getting doubled), while the built-in Recovery helps his survivability. In short, it's the perfect weapon for Alm to have going in to the "Treasure Vault challenge". That's the one place where Alm truly needs to perform (and survive), and a weapon that heals him up (while also costing less for its broken doubling art) is ideal. Forging it is costly, but it marks a solid improvement in the damage Alm is dealing.

To be sure, there are advantages to the Killer Bow as well. It has a higher crit rate, magnified when using Hunter's Volley, and it's dealing more damage against flying opponents. Plus, the extra range is something that the Royal Sword can never replicate. Each weapon has its time and place, and I'd count each of them among the strongest in the game. Personally, I prefer the Killer Bow on my Sniper/Bow Knight, for the absurd range, but I can see a case for training Alm on it as well. I think both weapons are deserving of a forge. Alm can't afford to forge both of them? Then, have Celica's army forge the Killer Bow in Act IV, then Merchant it back over to Alm's side. Boom, two excellent weapons to choose from.

1 hour ago, Mordred said:

Not really hyper specific, it's just their best classes.  You only want one merc as you don't get too many swords and Kliff is the best Merc out of the four as he has the highest base res and better bases.  Tobin gets a nice spell list that is very good early on and up to mid game so he makes the most sense as a Mage.  Grey kinda sucks and only is good as a Merc because Merc is good so his best spot without heavy investment is Mage and he has a decent spell list too.  Faye is best as a Cleric as she allows Silke to spam Warp as much as she wants while also being able to rescue.  

Interesting rationale. I usually hear "Merc Gray because he wants the speed boost", but capitalizing off of Kliff's high base Res is not the worst choice in the world. I really like Kliff's fleshed-out spell list, but I get the case for "earlier Excalibur, also Physic" on Tobin. For Gray, though, why not put him in Archer? You have to face enemy Archers as soon as the Southern Outpost, and without one of your own, they're essentially un-counterable. Plus, that attack range is always nice, especially against foes who can't counter him. And he can get a start towards Heavy Draw, as well as reaching level 7 to go Sniper, by the Deliverance Hideout. That's something Python will need serious grinding to match. Not to say "Archer is Gray's best class", nor that "Gray is the best Archer". But, if it's a choice between "two Mages and a Merc" and "a Mage, a Merc, and an Archer", I see myself getting more out of the latter.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, Mordred said:

The reason why killing Sonya is more recommended is because the Brave Sword is a decent forge that you get for free while also getting a decent Myrm with decent bases. 

Except one, you still get the Brave Sword if you kill Deen, and two, he's infinitely easier than she is.

[SnowFire]

For the original topic of advice for beating Hard mode: Let me just say I don't agree with a lot of the advice that's been given.  It's over-prescriptive.  You can beat Echoes just fine without any fanciness or specific forged weapons / class promotions, Archer is absolutely still a very relevant class with just an Iron Bow for things like sniping Cantors from range.  The simplest advice for if you're having trouble is just to grind some.  Echoes levels aren't that tightly scaled.  You can head back to the Deliverance Hideout and grind away for some class promotions.  Both waiting and promoting instantly are fine, it's no big deal.  As long as you're equipping your main fighters with weapons, any weapons, you should be fine.  Dark Mages & Cantors always hit like trucks, yes, but gaining levels will still give you raw HP to tank through their hits.  (And if you get Tobin up to Dread Fighter - probably overkill for C3, but it's an option - he'll start halving magic damage.). Stats in Echoes are pretty potent - you'll just start winning battles easily if you get overstat'd.

For the specific item brought up: Forging the Royal Sword is great.  The (totally optional, postgame-balanced) Killer Bow is great too, sure, but giving it to Alm is more like something speedruns do - for your average player, giving it to a Villager!Archer or to Python is fine.

[Mordred]

On 8/7/2023 at 7:36 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Deen drops the Brave Sword if you kill him, though. You're getting his Brave Sword one way or another. So the trade-off is between "Sonya plus Steel Shield" and "Deen". In fact, not recruiting Deen means Saber or Kamui can use the Brave Sword at Grieth's Citadel.

I've just got to disagree with most of this. Both Double Lion and Hunter's Volley require 20 SP. But Alm can start using the Royal Sword earlier (in Act III), giving him a head start on learning the art. A struggling player who chooses to grind might even have it by the end of Act III. Hunter's Volley definitely won't be online until at least a few maps into Act IV.

Anyway, comparing the weapon stats: at base, the Royal Sword has 2 extra Mt, 10 extra Hit, and 3 less Wt. The Killer Bow has 2 extra range and 10 more Crit. The Royal Sword boasts Recovery, while the Killer Bow is anti-flier. It's a bit of an apples to (Valentian) oranges comparison, sure, but I'd rather have the Royal Sword up close, while the Killer Bow is undeniably better for fighting at range. Now, to forge either weapon to maximum rank costs 1 Gold and 150 Silver. What's the comparison look like then? It gets a bit tighter, admittedly - Royal Sword has +1 Mt, still +10 Hit, and -1 Weight, while Killer Bow retains its range, and has +15 Crit.

Now, though, let's throw the combat arts into the mix. Double Lion costs 6 HP, and grants +5 Mt, +20 Hit, and a (usually irrelevant) +10 Avoid. Hunter's Volley costs 8 HP, and gives +1 Mt, +15 Hit, and +10 Crit. So, comparing the two: Double Lion on an unforged Royal Sword has +6 Might, +15 Hit, +13 Avoid, -2 Range, and -20 Crit, relative to Hunter's Volley on an unforged Killer Bow. Meanwhile, Double Lion on a max-forged Royal Sword has +5 Mt, +15 Hit, +11 Avoid, -2 Range, and -25 Crit, relative to Hunter's Volley on a Killer Bow.

Put simply - the Royal Sword is hitting harder, and more accurately, than the Killer Bow. Its lower weight helps Alm's Avoid (and not getting doubled), while the built-in Recovery helps his survivability. In short, it's the perfect weapon for Alm to have going in to the "Treasure Vault challenge". That's the one place where Alm truly needs to perform (and survive), and a weapon that heals him up (while also costing less for its broken doubling art) is ideal. Forging it is costly, but it marks a solid improvement in the damage Alm is dealing.

To be sure, there are advantages to the Killer Bow as well. It has a higher crit rate, magnified when using Hunter's Volley, and it's dealing more damage against flying opponents. Plus, the extra range is something that the Royal Sword can never replicate. Each weapon has its time and place, and I'd count each of them among the strongest in the game. Personally, I prefer the Killer Bow on my Sniper/Bow Knight, for the absurd range, but I can see a case for training Alm on it as well. I think both weapons are deserving of a forge. Alm can't afford to forge both of them? Then, have Celica's army forge the Killer Bow in Act IV, then Merchant it back over to Alm's side. Boom, two excellent weapons to choose from.

Interesting rationale. I usually hear "Merc Gray because he wants the speed boost", but capitalizing off of Kliff's high base Res is not the worst choice in the world. I really like Kliff's fleshed-out spell list, but I get the case for "earlier Excalibur, also Physic" on Tobin. For Gray, though, why not put him in Archer? You have to face enemy Archers as soon as the Southern Outpost, and without one of your own, they're essentially un-counterable. Plus, that attack range is always nice, especially against foes who can't counter him. And he can get a start towards Heavy Draw, as well as reaching level 7 to go Sniper, by the Deliverance Hideout. That's something Python will need serious grinding to match. Not to say "Archer is Gray's best class", nor that "Gray is the best Archer". But, if it's a choice between "two Mages and a Merc" and "a Mage, a Merc, and an Archer", I see myself getting more out of the latter.

Tbh I didn't remember about the Sonya and Deen thing so I was wrong about that then.  The reason I prolly did Sonya then last time was cause I had Super Palla or Super Saber who don't really care about mages since you can just turnwheel after any witch teleports and they won't teleport again.

While it's true that Royal Sword hit's more accurately and harder it has less range and can't counter any ranged attacks.  With the bases Hero has, Alm doesn't have to worry about getting doubled to often and range in my opinion is just more valuable than any bonuses Double Lion gives.  Also the argument about Alm being able to use Double Lion early isn't very significant when Clive or Matilda with Rider's Bane plus your Merc is carrying all of Act 3 anyways regardless of Alm knowing Double Lion or not.  There's just no real advantage of training Alm in Act 3 when his Bases in Hero are so big that it doesn't matter if he was trained in Act 3 or not.

The reason Mage Gray is more efficient is that Python is already available early and him needing to be trained is a benefit to the team when the whole team wants to hit certain lvl points or promotion points pre desaix fortress.  You only get like two Bows early anyways and one of them is pretty much worthless that early on.  Mage is simply a lot less investment while giving similar pay off to trying to make another archer that early.