So Baldurs Gate 3 is out...

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

...or so he says, the game having been in EA since... 2020?

Granted I haven´t touched the game since... patch 6 I think and I haven´t gotten very far thanks to an unholy download (still in druid cave) but how´s the game treat you all so far and what are you playing if you don´t mind sharing? I´m playing a basic human ranger, though solo.

I will say it looks a lot less... glitchy, especially the cutscenes but the game still feels kinda wonky with the transitions between gameplay-cutscenes and I just had a Bugbear t-pose on me for the entire fight. 

I also made the mistake of glancing at the steam forum... naw.

 

I may have accidentially blown up Lae´zel.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Money's tight in hell year 2023, so I haven't really purchased any new games at full price, but I look forward to playing this eventually. Deep CRPGs with tons of buildcraft are my thing. Guild Wars 1 is still my favorite game of all time.

 

And Larian is a developer I just wholeheartedly admire and respect. They're one of the only developers not afraid to make RPGs that make you think, and reward your creativity.

[Integrity]

bg3 is the greatest crpg ever made, i am confident in this ruling

 

i'm playing a half-elf fighter because that's what i always did as a child, and if i'm gonna be playing a new baldur's-fucking-gate in tyool 2023 i am absolutely reverting to the Old Ways

[lenticular]

I have a gnome warlock/paladin who I got to level 5 yesterday. I have mixed feelings about the game, but overall more positive than negative.

On the plus side, it does a better job than any other CRPG that I can think of at capturing the expansiveness and open-endedness of TTRPGs. You have so many options for things that you can try or ways you can approach problems, and a lot of them actually work. It manages to have both emergent narative and constructive narative in a way that's really quite impressive.

On the minus, side, though, the cost of this expansiveness is that the game feels very janky at time. Stuff like inventory management is a frustrating chore, for instance. Or weird pathing issues where the game makes you move manually. Or the overall balance seems off; without much (any?) disincentive from taking long rests whenever you like, a lot of resource management from the original DnD rules just isn't there, and it can feel weird sometimes.

Still a good game and one that I'm mostly having fun with, but a frustrating one too.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Integrity said:

bg3 is the greatest crpg ever made, i am confident in this ruling

 

i'm playing a half-elf fighter because that's what i always did as a child, and if i'm gonna be playing a new baldur's-fucking-gate in tyool 2023 i am absolutely reverting to the Old Ways

I would be shocked if it's a better CRPG than Guild Wars was, but I will absolutely keep an open mind.

 

My plan for the future is probably Drow Monk - way of the shadows. Might mix in some Rogue or Warlock as a multiclass. It's a great representation of my personal roleplaying character.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Fabulously Olivier

[Integrity]

guild wars 1 is a fantastic game for pure combat but that's basically all the game is, is finding inventive new ways to do combat. it's still pretty much unparalleled at that, but it's also a pretty limited niche imo

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 minutes ago, Integrity said:

guild wars 1 is a fantastic game for pure combat but that's basically all the game is, is finding inventive new ways to do combat. it's still pretty much unparalleled at that, but it's also a pretty limited niche imo

That's fair, and I don't disagree. Though combat kind of is the main thing one does.

 

And I don't actually think it's a limited niche. I think it's an untapped market.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

11 hours ago, lenticular said:

Stuff like inventory management is a frustrating chore,

I´m using backpacks and the like to group items together to help a bit with that. It´s probably way worse with 4 characters though.

11 hours ago, lenticular said:

Or the overall balance seems off; without much (any?) disincentive from taking long rests whenever you like, a lot of resource management from the original DnD rules just isn't there, and it can feel weird sometimes.

I´m not familiar with either BG or DnD but so far I haven´t seen a reason for resting, but that´s probably more important for spellcasters.

My character is constanly saying they´re tired, but like the show must go on.

[lenticular]

4 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

I´m not familiar with either BG or DnD but so far I haven´t seen a reason for resting, but that´s probably more important for spellcasters.

My character is constanly saying they´re tired, but like the show must go on.

It's definitely more important for spellcasters. Spells are categorised by power level, from level 0 (aka cantrips) up to level 6 (level 9 in tabletop DnD, but BG3 has a lower level cap). You can cast cantrips as often as you like, but you only have a limited number of spell slots to cast other spells, which depends on your level and your stats. So, if I have two third-level spell slots, I'm only allowed to cast two third-level spells. These don't recharge every fight, but only when you rest. So there's a world of difference between a fight where you have all your spell slots, cast all your biggest spells and blow everything up, and the same fight when you're completely out of spell slots and just have to plink away with cantrips. Even for non-casters, most of them get some sort of ability or resource that only recharges when they rest, but it's typically not as pronounced as it is for spellcasters.

[Tryhard]

BG3 is currently above both BOTW and TOTK on metacritic, that's kind of insane (despite the fact that it is likely to drop I think when more reviews come in, maybe). I know metacritic means pretty much nothing but I haven't seen a CRPG with this much of a high profile and prominence since... well, ever. Even the original BG1 and BG2 didn't reach the levels of the mainstream this much.

I just got finished with a full playthrough of Wrath of the Righteous (also an excellent game, although it is admitedly far more niche and has some glaring things that Owlcat are known for failing at) and I played through the early access of BG3 so I know it's very good. The main issues I've been hearing is the bugginess/performance in Act 3. I'll sit down to play at some point soon, but waiting for technical issues to be fixed is probably not a bad idea, considering they have already released multiple hotfixes fixing issues and bugs. Technical issues can at least be fixed, especially with a game of this scale, and I generally haven't seen any complaints with the actual content.

On 8/14/2023 at 6:19 PM, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

I also made the mistake of glancing at the steam forum... naw.

The steam forums might be the place where the most negative people congregate somehow, I actually browse through there for humour since every other thread is about how this game is woke.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Tryhard

[Fabulously Olivier]

44 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

every other thread is about how this game is woke.

Hardcore conservatives generally aren't literate enough to pick out subtext. If they were, they'd figure out that most of their favorite gaming franchises are hella woke.

[Integrity]

59 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I actually browse through there for humour since every other thread is about how this game is woke.

he regrettably posts these to the discord sometimes, including a guy who thinks throne of bhaal was better than bg3, or better than shitting oneself to death

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, Tryhard said:

BG3 is currently above both BOTW and TOTK on metacritic, that's kind of insane (despite the fact that it is likely to drop I think when more reviews come in, maybe). I know metacritic means pretty much nothing but I haven't seen a CRPG with this much of a high profile and prominence since... well, ever. Even the original BG1 and BG2 didn't reach the levels of the mainstream this much.

It's hardly surprising that it's a bigger deal than the first two Baldur's Gate games. D&D is a way hotter license now than it was 25 years ago, what with Critical Role, Stranger Things, and the general ascent of nerd culture. D&D 5E (the system used in BG3) is also way more accessible to a general audience than AD&D 2E (the system for BG1 & 2). And I'd also add that Larian was a much more respected studio before BG3 than BioWare was before BG1; it's easy to think of BioWare in terms of what they later became, but BG1 was only their second ever game and I had to go and look up what their first one was (it was Shattered Steel).

[Tryhard]

18 hours ago, Integrity said:

he regrettably posts these to the discord sometimes

you love it really

18 hours ago, lenticular said:

It's hardly surprising that it's a bigger deal than the first two Baldur's Gate games. D&D is a way hotter license now than it was 25 years ago, what with Critical Role, Stranger Things, and the general ascent of nerd culture. D&D 5E (the system used in BG3) is also way more accessible to a general audience than AD&D 2E (the system for BG1 & 2). And I'd also add that Larian was a much more respected studio before BG3 than BioWare was before BG1; it's easy to think of BioWare in terms of what they later became, but BG1 was only their second ever game and I had to go and look up what their first one was (it was Shattered Steel).

BG1 I can understand but by BG2 they had some wind behind their backs, and that game left a legacy that is still highly respected by people today. But it was more so that CRPGs have had a sort of resurgence in recent years with the Pathfinder games, the Pillars of Eternity games, Tyranny, Disco Elysium, and then Larian's own Divinity Original Sin games. CRPGs have always been known as a rather niche genre but this is the first one I've seen break into the mainstream.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Tryhard

[lenticular]

12 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

CRPGs have always been known as a rather niche genre but this is the first one I've seen break into the mainstream.

How are you defining CRPG here? For me, I'd use a broad definition that would include series like Pokémon, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, World of Warcraft, etc. which are all pretty obviously mainstream. I'm assuming you're going with a different definition, though.

[Tryhard]

37 minutes ago, lenticular said:

How are you defining CRPG here? For me, I'd use a broad definition that would include series like Pokémon, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, World of Warcraft, etc. which are all pretty obviously mainstream. I'm assuming you're going with a different definition, though.

CRPG / Computer RPG generally refers to games with an isometric style. Generally emphasis is put on character customisation (i.e not a set protagonist) and choices and consequences or reactivity. Usually they are also linked with a tabletop gaming license / ruleset adaption like D&D or Pathfinder, but not always. It is kind of a nebulous or arbitrary term but it usually refers to games in the same style as Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 + 2, Neverwinter Nights, et cetera. I certainly wouldn't consider any of the series you mentioned as CRPGs.

This is probably the best explanation I've found of it:

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Tryhard

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Have only caught a stream or two of the game. Looks interesting! It's a small thing, but I like that your roll for skill checks is onscreen. So many CRPGs have the rolls be totally invisible to the player, leading to a system of mechanics that runs more on vibes than understanding. And sure, a D&D purist would say "well I don't tell the players what the DC is. I just tell them pass or fail. Stop thinking of things in the context of a video game". I get that perspective, but even in D&D I do see what I roll. I know that a 15 is very good, so when that roll still manages to fail it gives me a greater impression of the challenge than if the DM rolled for me behind a barrier. Plus I just like rolling dice like anyone else. I've been nitpicking for years these games ought to have more of the dice rolls visible, especially if it's adapting literal D&D. 

Hope to play the game myself later in the year. August is fangame/rom hack appreciation month, so my attention has been well diverted. And oof, what if Armored Core and Starfield are amazing too. This may become an expensive pileup of longform video games. Is it really the beeeeest isometric rpg? I kind of hope the internet rallies back around to Disco Elysium. That's a game I'd rather root for.

20 hours ago, lenticular said:

It's hardly surprising that it's a bigger deal than the first two Baldur's Gate games. D&D is a way hotter license now than it was 25 years ago,

you know it's funny, I played some of the CRPGs and the tabletop game when I was young. But we never played with official modules and settings in DnD. It would be at least a decade later before I noticed that Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, and Planescape were officially licensed settings.

[lenticular]

3 hours ago, Tryhard said:

CRPG / Computer RPG generally refers to games with an isometric style. Generally emphasis is put on character customisation (i.e not a set protagonist) and choices and consequences or reactivity. Usually they are also linked with a tabletop gaming license / ruleset adaption like D&D or Pathfinder, but not always. It is kind of a nebulous or arbitrary term but it usually refers to games in the same style as Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 + 2, Neverwinter Nights, et cetera. I certainly wouldn't consider any of the series you mentioned as CRPGs.

This is probably the best explanation I've found of it:

Whereas to me, CRPG just means any RPG on a computer, as opposed to a TTRPG (tabletop) or LARP (live action). This is similar to one of the definitions mentioned in the video you linked, except even broader, since I would include console games as well, since that's not what I'm contrasting against. I'm not here to argue definitions, though. I just wanted to know how you were using the term so I could understand the point you were making.

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 hours ago, lenticular said:

Whereas to me, CRPG just means any RPG on a computer, as opposed to a TTRPG (tabletop) or LARP (live action). This is similar to one of the definitions mentioned in the video you linked, except even broader, since I would include console games as well, since that's not what I'm contrasting against. I'm not here to argue definitions, though. I just wanted to know how you were using the term so I could understand the point you were making.

I think it's kind of inbetween. It does specifically refer to games like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Divinity Original Sin, Pathfinder, etc., but also encompasses online RPGs that do not meet the definition of MMORPG.

[Dark Holy Elf]

CRPG is such a strange term. I agree that it often doesn't include games like Final Fantasy and Pokemon (and Fire Emblem!), but then, if you ask pretty much anyone what genre of video game Final Fantasy 7 belongs to, ninety-nine times out of a hundred you'll get an answer which involves "RPG". So Final Fantasy is an RPG which is played on a console/computer but it is not a CRPG, which ostensibly stands for console/computer RPG? Very strange. I tend to prefer the label of WRPG instead for that reason (it's still not perfect because not all WRPGs are made in the west and there are TTRPGs made in the west which obviously don't fall under the label, but at least the intent of the label is a bit more clear).

(I agree that definitions don't really matter and all that matter is that we agree on what terms mean for a given discussion, but goodness if some of the semantics surrounding RPGs aren't extremely strange.)

Anyway that's not what I came into this thread to post about. I've been hearing some good things about this game but I really didn't care for the first Baldur's Gate from way back in the day. Mostly I just really didn't care for the combat, and find the idea of trying to recreate TTRPGs (which I play regularly in person and enjoy) in video game form to be a fool's errand because I'll never truly have the freedom and flexibility to shape the story and communicate with the DM that I do in person. Is this game worth checking out anyway?

[lenticular]

17 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Anyway that's not what I came into this thread to post about. I've been hearing some good things about this game but I really didn't care for the first Baldur's Gate from way back in the day. Mostly I just really didn't care for the combat, and find the idea of trying to recreate TTRPGs (which I play regularly in person and enjoy) in video game form to be a fool's errand because I'll never truly have the freedom and flexibility to shape the story and communicate with the DM that I do in person. Is this game worth checking out anyway?

I would say "maybe yes", but tentatively so. I also didn't care for the original Baldur's Gate, but am enjoying BG3 a whole lot more. I'm not as high on it as many people seem to be, but am enjoying it even so. I'd have it at something like a 7 or 8 out of 10, whereas consensus seems to have it somewhere around a 9 or 10. I think that the combat is much better than BG1. Partly that's just because I think that 5E is a better system than 2E was, but I also think they absolutely made the right decision to ditch real-time-with-pause and just go fully turn-based instead. D&D rules were designed for turn-based play, and not trying to fit the square peg into a round hole makes them flow much more smoothly. Obviously, the caveat there is that some people just don't care for turn based systems, but given that we're on a Fire Emblem board, I hardly see that as a likely problem for anyone here.

You absolutely can't get the freedom and flexibility of a TTRPG into an RPG-on-a-computer, but BG3 does a better job of it than any other RPG-on-a-computer that I've ever played. There are so many little interactions programmed in, predicting a lot of the things that you might want to try. And even beyond those, some instances where things that the devs probably never thought of can just arise naturally from the systems. But, with that said, the devs obviously couldn't think of literally everything. There have been times when I wanted to approach a situation in some specific way and I wasn't able to, times when I did things "out of order" and it made things play out strangely. But it speaks volumes that it feels like a letdown when this sort of thing happens, rather than just feeling like the norm.

The biggest advantage that it has over an actual TTRPG is that you can play it solo, so you don't have to worry about finding a group or scheduling problems, but can just play it in your own time and at your own pace. Being an inherently social activity is a strength of TTRPGs, but can also be a weakness. This is going to vary a lot from person to person, of course.

The other advantage is that it's a professionally written and acted story. Whenever I've played TTRPGs, none of my groups (including myself) have ever been able to act worth a damn. Which is fine, that's not really the point, but the voice acting here is really good and offers something that I just don't get with tabletop.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Re: inventory... yeah it´s getting pretty bad with scrolls, potions, items that seem important but I got no clue about them... would be pretty cool if 1) we could autodesignate containers for certain things and 2) the autostacking worked properly.

missing a roll in this game makes me relive Darkest Dungeon pains I had forgotten

[Tryhard]

Disco Elysium is a fantastic game, but it's also a game with no combat which a lot of people aren't going to care for.

BG3 is more a "complete package" in that regard. I've only played the early access but I rate it very highly from that already. I don't think it does certain things as well as other games (Disco Elysiums writing for example) but it is generally very good in most areas. It has very high production values in a way that no other traditional isometric CRPG really has had.

Having just finished a playthrough of Wrath of the Righteous, one of the biggest problems I had was that late game around level 15+ devolved into prebuffing the shit out of my party and just left clicking stuff, having it die within a few rounds, in the nature that high level D&D (or Pathfinder in this case) tends to be. I think the condensed level cap up to level 12 is a smart way of trying to keep the combat interesting throughout the whole game.

The critical response to BG3 undoubtedly puts it in contention as a GOTY contender along with Zelda. 2023 has unironically been one of the greatest years for games.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Tryhard

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 hours ago, Tryhard said:

The critical response to BG3 undoubtedly puts it in contention as a GOTY contender along with Zelda. 2023 has unironically been one of the greatest years for games.

I'd say that 2017 and every year following, except for 2021, has been among the greatest years for gaming. 2022 was extremely strong, and 2023 may well be the GOAT.

[Parrhesia]

Given that BG2 was absolutely, at the time of release, the best RPG ever made, and Larian's D2:OS was absolutely the incumbent best RPG ever made, it's perhaps unsurprising that BG3 is, yes, the best RPG ever made.

I went for a half-dark elf cleric of Selune, because of misplaced nostalgia for NWN1 Hordes of the Underdark and for, of all things, the late-80s AD&D comics (going back through them is kind of funny because the first arc of four is melodramatic self-serious dogshit and they immediately fire the writer and kick on into an arc which is literally centred on jesters). This, hilariously, made me the anti-Shadowheart. I, uh, did not see any option for a non-Dark Urge custom character, so I'm the Dark Urge, and discovered this only after asking people what they thought about, um. A The Incident it turned out nobody else had experienced! Dark Urge is fun.

I'm in the tail end of Act 2, pretty sure. The game's hit every note. It's got a fair few mild bugs, sure, but like, DA2 is my favourite RPG of all time, so that isn't a deal-breaker. None have been so severe that a quicksave-quickload doesn't fix.