Least Favorite Part

[Florete]

Can you think of anyone worse? I know I can't.

Micaiah's a lord in a game where enemies have ridiculously high hit and AS and her evade and AS are ridiculously low. And late promotions too. And crappy light magic.

I would say Eirika is worse. Micaiah with Thani can one-shot bosses and some regular enemies (Even sometimes without bonus damage), she has massive magic to make up for Light's general weakness (Though Thani is the strongest Light tome until Rexaura and stronger than a lot of elemental magic, plus you get two), great healing utility come part 3 with that massive magic + staff level C as well as Sacrifice beforehand, and an auto-A support with Sothe that does pretty well for both of them and makes use of Sothe's innate Guard skill. She's frail, but she never needs to be attacked by anyone that can kill her, and she's an amazing mage killer to boot. She's better than she appears.

[Lord Raven]

Thani's pretty much her only redeeming factor. Even that starts to drag after Part 1. Her Part 3 healing utility is definitely a plus, but she's still an extreme form of a glass cannon.

Eirika's fine. She's frail at the beginning, but at least she can evade and double consistently near the end. And she gets a mount and I also believe her Defense isn't bad.

Especially relative to the game, Eirika's doing a lot better than Micaiah because FE8's really easy on the highest difficulty.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Thani's pretty much her only redeeming factor. Even that starts to drag after Part 1. Her Part 3 healing utility is definitely a plus, but she's still an extreme form of a glass cannon.

Eirika's fine. She's frail at the beginning, but at least she can evade and double consistently near the end. And she gets a mount and I also believe her Defense isn't bad.

Especially relative to the game, Eirika's doing a lot better than Micaiah because FE8's really easy on the highest difficulty.

90 shots of Thani says it isn't a problem if that's her redeeming factor. I mentioned her frailty, but it shouldn't get to her too badly because of how she needs to be used.

Eirika's performance is average where most characters are doing great. Micaiah is a huge asset to her team with healing and Thani (Remember that most characters on her team aren't the greatest either, so weakening an enemy so someone else can finish without taking a counter can be essential). I wish she could've gotten a few authority stars, but it's no big deal. The extra challenge may be better.

[Lord Raven]

The fact that you have to use her should be irrelevant to how good she is. She still is pretty bad and a complete misfit in this game. Her frailty IS a huge factor especially in Part I, where your units are too busy watching their own ass to help watch micaiah's. And then there's the swarms of enemies that Part III tends to throw at you, which Micaiah can't handle herself.

Lack of WTA with the common enemy is also a problem, I wouldn't say that losing in WTA is a disadvantage against other Mages though - they do no damage to her anyway.

You missed what I said, too. Thani is good in part I. In Part III, it's decent, but not as good because enemies are stronger and a lot less likely to be one round; in Part I they're very likely to be one rounded. So really, all she's becoming good for after Part I is healing and leaving a dent in the enemy, for others to kill. The fact that she can use a Physic right off the bat (IIRC?) helps.

Eirika's performance is fine. Even if others are doing better (at least half the cast is losing to her, especially after she promotes, by the way), she's still doing way better than Micaiah can in her own game.

[Florete]

The fact that you have to use her should be irrelevant to how good she is. She still is pretty bad and a complete misfit in this game. Her frailty IS a huge factor especially in Part I, where your units are too busy watching their own ass to help watch micaiah's. And then there's the swarms of enemies that Part III tends to throw at you, which Micaiah can't handle herself.

Lack of WTA with the common enemy is also a problem, I wouldn't say that losing in WTA is a disadvantage against other Mages though - they do no damage to her anyway.

You missed what I said, too. Thani is good in part I. In Part III, it's decent, but not as good because enemies are stronger and a lot less likely to be one round; in Part I they're very likely to be one rounded. So really, all she's becoming good for after Part I is healing and leaving a dent in the enemy, for others to kill. The fact that she can use a Physic right off the bat (IIRC?) helps.

Eirika's performance is fine. Even if others are doing better (at least half the cast is losing to her, especially after she promotes, by the way), she's still doing way better than Micaiah can in her own game.

I misworded it; I wasn't using the fact that she has to be mapped as an advantage, though I see how it can come off that way. But anyway, most front-liners like Edward, Nolan, Sothe, Aran, Volug, Jill, and Zihark can take a few hits and be fine, so Micaiah doesn't need to be up there getting hit, so her frailty isn't a huge factor unless you make it one. Part III is even easier on Micaiah because there are always chokepoints to stop enemies from reaching her entirely, plus she has staves now so she never even has to see battle.

Lack of WTA comes with lack of WTD. No real advantage or disadvantage.

You missed what I said as well, the part about Thani doing enough damage so someone else can finish without taking a counter, or just finishing the enemy entirely. That's good, because the enemies in Micaiah's part 3 chapters are significantly stronger than those in part 1. Also, characters with low luck (See: Aran) may start seeing some criticals, so healing power is essential. Laura can do it, but she isn't always played, and Micaiah + Laura > Micaiah or Laura anyway. And you're correct, she can use Physic from the start.

Eirika isn't as good as most of her team because she's about average where most characters tend to be above average. She has a late promotion (Micaiah does too, but it isn't hurting her as badly) and isn't aiding in any extra way like Micaiah is with staves/Sacrifice/Thani. Micaiah is helping her team more, thus the reason Micaiah > Eirika.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

I'd like to note that even with low luck, only a select few classes, at best, will have have critical rates that are worrying. The rest will be five percent or below, because Aran has some base luck and the crit rate is skill/2... which is going to be around 20 at best in Micaiah's chapters.

Just understand, I'm not arguing on relative means here. I think Eirika's even better than Micaiah on relative means; the fact that she works as a weakener doesn't help her one bit, and Sacrifice is a stupid skill because her HP really blows anyway, Edward gets killed in two hits early on without the Dracoshield and Nolan will go straight to hell if he doesn't gain enough speed by Chapter 3 or 4 - he probably will, but he'll still take a lot of damage. Sothe is the only one with a consistent fighting chance and even he starts to feel the enemies later on. Zihark too.

They have little problem after they're built up and start to get used to the feel of the FE10 atmosphere. Until then, Micaiah and the rest of her squad are pretty hard to keep alive without completely tanking.

The main point to do with her getting hit was that everyone else was too busy keeping themselves alive to protect her and be in the "backlines" in the first place. This is at the very beginning couple chapters, by the way, notably before you get Sothe.

I don't actually want to turn this into a full on debate; in fact the above is just random ramblings.. I think I can argue your points if I didn't skim your posts, but I'd think that it all boils down to this: you can't say that a lord who is arguably doing pretty well in her own game is worse than a lord who is doing, at best, average and generally very mediocre in HER own game.

I'm not giving a damn about relativity here, even in both games; that applies to the fact that some units are a lot more powerful than Micaiah and the fact that supposedly a lot of units are more powerful than Eirika (once again, at least half are being outperformed by her, and her late promotion doesn't matter because she's already doing a decent job beforehand, she just gets a mount this time and rapes). In raw terms, Eirika > Micaiah. Even in relative terms, Eirika > Micaiah, because Eirika can stand the heat of FE8.

EDIT: Bah you better give me like five minutes (it's like :55 as of this editing, so :00 works lol), I have too many second thoughts after I post.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

I don't actually want to turn this into a heated debate. I think I can argue your points if I say this, but you can't say that a lord who is arguably doing pretty well in her own game is worse than a lord who is doing, at best, average and generally very mediocre in HER own game. I'm not giving a damn about relativity here.

(I'd like to note that even with low luck, only a select few classes, at best, will have have critical rates that are worrying. The rest will be five percent or below, because Aran has some base luck and the crit rate is skill/2... which is going to be around 20 at best in Micaiah's chapters.)

Just understand, I'm not arguing on relative means here. I think Eirika's even better than Micaiah on relative means; the fact that she works as a weakener doesn't help her one bit, and Sacrifice is a stupid skill because her HP really blows anyway, Edward gets killed in two hits early on without the Dracoshield and Nolan will go straight to hell if he doesn't gain enough speed by Chapter 2.

Bah you better give me like five minutes (it's like :53 as of this posting, so :58 works lol), I have too many second thoughts after I post.

When crossing games, you have to compare them by how well they aid the team and compare to other characters, and Micaiah is a much bigger aid to her own team than Eirika is. Micaiah might not be doing so great in combat, but FE10 is much harder than FE8, so it's obvious that'll happen. Eirika is doing okay in terms of combat, but most of whom she's fighting with is doing even better, and Eirika has nothing to add to the team except her average fighting ability. Micaiah has great 1-2 range fighting ability, hits resistance, and has healing utility. It's the fact she's a bigger help to the team that makes her better.

I'd rather see 0 crit chance on enemies personally. RNG is a cruel bitch.

Edward can dodge on occasion and is meant to be a frontliner on account of being locked to swords. Nolan is the greatest meatshield you have until getting Sothe, and still pretty good for the chapters to come. With a 60 speed growth, getting enough speed shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

Edited my post a lot, by the way. I just want people to pay attention to the last two paragraphs, the before two are just nitpicky details.

Have you played Hard Mode? There's no Weapon Triangle, as I forgot to mention. I'm pretty much arguing with hard mode in mind here, and he's having a hard time dodging especially without WTA against Axes early on.

Someone bring me the most up to date tier list of both games because I'm actually curious.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Edited my post a lot, by the way. I just want people to pay attention to the last two paragraphs, the before two are just nitpicky details.

Have you played Hard Mode? There's no Weapon Triangle, as I forgot to mention. I'm pretty much arguing with hard mode in mind here, and he's having a hard time dodging especially without WTA against Axes early on.

Someone bring me the most up to date tier list of both games because I'm actually curious.

I'm getting to it.

I started, but my Wii hasn't been working, so I haven't finished. Even so, Edward is a better frontlines than Leo or Micaiah, so he's more likely to be up there.

Tier lists. Bah.

They have little problem after they're built up and start to get used to the feel of the FE10 atmosphere. Until then, Micaiah and the rest of her squad are pretty hard to keep alive without completely tanking.

The main point to do with her getting hit was that everyone else was too busy keeping themselves alive to protect her and be in the "backlines" in the first place. This is at the very beginning couple chapters, by the way, notably before you get Sothe.

I'm not giving a damn about relativity here, even in both games; that applies to the fact that some units are a lot more powerful than Micaiah and the fact that supposedly a lot of units are more powerful than Eirika (once again, at least half are being outperformed by her, and her late promotion doesn't matter because she's already doing a decent job beforehand, she just gets a mount this time and rapes). In raw terms, Eirika > Micaiah. Even in relative terms, Eirika > Micaiah, because Eirika can stand the heat of FE8.

And? This is part of the reason Micaiah is helping. Staves + Thani. Backline fighting and healing.

Prologue: Edward can wall, heal himself when needed, anyone can usually take out the bandits on the player phase after Edward hit on enemy phase.

Chapter 1: Nolan's here. 'nuff said, seeing as he's a better wall than Edward.

Chapter 2: Laura's here. There aren't too many enemies in a somewhat big space. Walling is even easier because Laura can heal. Sothe comes part way through.

Pretty much any character except Knoll and Syrene can stand the heat of FE8. Eirika's mount only gives her 7 movement anyway, 1 more than regular foot units, so it's no huge advantage. She's still locked to swords with low strength, and Sieglinde only has 30 uses. Her late promotion does hurt her when everyone else is level 5 promoted and raping already. She's ok beforehand, but nothing great. If you're looking at the fact that Eirika can double that enemy and likely dodge, while Micaiah can't likely won't dodge, you will see Eirika as better than Micaiah. But if you look at the fact that FE10 is harder than FE8, especially in hard mode, Micaiah is helping her team more than Eirika is helping hers.

[Lord Raven]

Even so, Edward is a better frontlines than Leo or Micaiah, so he's more likely to be up there.

I'd actually go on a whim here and say he's not. They both die in two hits in Chapter 1.

And? This is part of the reason Micaiah is helping. Staves + Thani. Backline fighting and healing.

Only applies after part I. Where Thani isn't as useful, like I said earlier, because she isn't one rounding with it anymore. Just coming close to it.

Prologue: Edward can wall, heal himself when needed, anyone can usually take out the bandits on the player phase after Edward hit on enemy phase.

Prologue was piss simple. Do we really need to argue here?

Chapter 1: Nolan's here. 'nuff said, seeing as he's a better wall than Edward.

I said that Nolan starts dying easier after this point.

Chapter 2: Laura's here. There aren't too many enemies in a somewhat big space. Walling is even easier because Laura can heal. Sothe comes part way through.

No, it's not even easier because Laura is here. In fact, it gives you even more units to protect that are frail as all hell, with Laura being the mother of that bunch! Pretty much everyone's in deep shit here except Sothe and to an extent Nolan, especially Micaiah.

Pretty much any character except Knoll and Syrene can stand the heat of FE8.

Someone who can definitely stand the heat of a game > someone who can barely stand the heat of a game. Also, Ewan and Amelia are hard to bring up to par ESPECIALLY Ewan.

Eirika's mount only gives her 7 movement anyway, 1 more than regular foot units, so it's no huge advantage.

It's still an advantage no?

She's still locked to swords with low strength, and Sieglinde only has 30 uses.

Her Strength is average, and it's fine. She'll two round most of the time especially considering the calibur of the enemies, and hell she's pretty much doubling consistently until Chapter 9 if you decide to go through Ephraim's route, or throughout the entire game through her route. And realistically your units are promoting one or two chapters before she promotes so she's not too far behind that it's disadvantageous.

She can afford heavier/stronger weapons too. Her Speed is that secure.

Her late promotion does hurt her when everyone else is level 5 promoted and raping already.

Then again, nobody needs to be used in FE8 because Seth is already raping, already promoted and already has a shitload of move.

She's ok beforehand, but nothing great.

Same applies to Micaiah except she's not spectacular - or anywhere near it - throughout the entire game. At best it's when she gets ahold of a physic staff.

If you're looking at the fact that Eirika can double that enemy and likely dodge, while Micaiah can't likely won't dodge, you will see Eirika as better than Micaiah.

Because she is. Eirika can take a hit and even avoid it, Micaiah cannot.

But if you look at the fact that FE10 is harder than FE8, especially in hard mode, Micaiah is helping her team more than Eirika is helping hers.

No, Micaiah is a hindrance. FE10 being harder than FE8 means that Micaiah has more to fight, and requires a lot more offense and defense to fight against; her offense only consists of having a high magic stat, but her defense really blows. She's frail and can't double, and in turn gets doubled later on because of her mediocre speed stat (and all the enemies having high speed in general).

In an easier game, everyone is better. In a harder game, everyone is worse. In relative terms, not really, but in raw terms, it is true; I'm arguing on raw terms, not relative but I still can't see how Eirika's doing worse than Micaiah on relative terms either.

[Florete]

I'd actually go on a whim here and say he's not. They both die in two hits in Chapter 1.

Micaiah can occasionally be one-shotted, Leonardo is on 2 range. Edward is frontlining.

Only applies after part I. Where Thani isn't as useful, like I said earlier, because she isn't one rounding with it anymore. Just coming close to it.

Like I said earlier, this is good to prevent your guys from eating counter attacks on player phase.

Prologue was piss simple. Do we really need to argue here?

I suppose not, but it doesn't help you.

I said that Nolan starts dying easier after this point.

Not so much. Once he gets good speed (60% growth btw) and an iron axe he's good to go.

No, it's not even easier because Laura is here. In fact, it gives you even more units to protect that are frail as all hell, with Laura being the mother of that bunch! Pretty much everyone's in deep shit here except Sothe and to an extent Nolan, especially Micaiah.

Lol. Laura with her healing makes things much easier. If you can't keep her away from enemies, that's your fault.

Someone who can definitely stand the heat of a game > someone who can barely stand the heat of a game. Also, Ewan and Amelia are hard to bring up to par ESPECIALLY Ewan.

I don't care about Ewan and Amelia. The point is, 85% of FE8's cast could be considered good characters because it's easy. FE10 is harder, so who's good is relative to who is helping out more, and Eirika does not help her team as much as Micaiah helps hers.

It's still an advantage no?

Supposedly yes, except for the fact that a lot of characters (more than in other games anyway) can get a very similar mount.

Her Strength is average, and it's fine. She'll two round most of the time especially considering the calibur of the enemies, and hell she's pretty much doubling consistently until Chapter 9 if you decide to go through Ephraim's route, or throughout the entire game through her route. And realistically your units are promoting one or two chapters before she promotes so she's not too far behind that it's disadvantageous.

She can afford heavier/stronger weapons too. Her Speed is that secure

Her strength isn't as good as most units on her team. Eirika is two-rounding, you just said. Well, Micaiah is as well, except occasionally one-rounding. Otherwise, yeah, but so what?

Alright. Micaiah, on the other hand, gets a weapon losing in power only to the strongest tome she can wield throughout the entire game at chapter 2 with no AS loss from it and 90 total uses. She's pretty much set.

Then again, nobody needs to be used in FE8 because Seth is already raping, already promoted and already has a shitload of move.

That doesn't help your side one bit.

Same applies to Micaiah except she's not spectacular - or anywhere near it - throughout the entire game. At best it's when she gets ahold of a physic staff.

At fighting perhaps. Luckily, she uses staves as you so plainly pointed out. After her best part of fighting is over is when she gets them also, so she's never rendered useless. She's still a decent fighter when you compare her to the rest of her team.

Because she is. Eirika can take a hit and even avoid it, Micaiah cannot.

Micaiah doesn't need to. 1-2 range + staves says she doesn't have to see an enemy attack at all and still be a major help. Eirika has to see enemy combat because she has no decent ranged option, and although she may dodge axes, swords and lances can find her below average defense on occasion.

No, Micaiah is a hindrance. FE10 being harder than FE8 means that Micaiah has more to fight, and requires a lot more offense and defense to fight against; her offense only consists of having a high magic stat, but her defense really blows. She's frail and can't double, and in turn gets doubled later on because of her mediocre speed stat (and all the enemies having high speed in general).

In an easier game, everyone is better. In a harder game, everyone is worse. In relative terms, not really, but in raw terms, it is true; I'm arguing on raw terms, not relative but I still can't see how Eirika's doing worse than Micaiah on relative terms either.

Micaiah can do more than just fight, though. Are you just completely ignoring the staff option? I already explained why Micaiah doesn't need to see enemy attacks, so her frailty doesn't mean as much.

It's how much they aid the team. Micaiah is healing, supporting Sothe, hitting hard, and occasionally one-shotting on a team that desperately needs that kind of help. Eirika is an average fighter on a team mainly consisting of overpowered units. If you just ignore the rest of the team, Eirika > Micaiah, but that's not an accurate comparison in the least.

[Lord Raven]

Micaiah can occasionally be one-shotted, Leonardo is on 2 range. Edward is frontlining.

I'd like to say that he's doing a pretty shitty job of frontlining if he can be two shotted.

Like I said earlier, this is good to prevent your guys from eating counter attacks on player phase.

No, it's good for weakening stuff so others can get kills for experience.

Not so much. Once he gets good speed (60% growth btw) and an iron axe he's good to go.

The part before that is the main part I was referring to. Which is a good 30% of Part I.

Lol. Laura with her healing makes things much easier. If you can't keep her away from enemies, that's your fault.

Not all defenses are 100% perfect. The fact that Laura has piss poor defense means that you have no room for leniency; at least other healers allow for some extent of leniency.

I don't care about Ewan and Amelia. The point is, 85% of FE8's cast could be considered good characters because it's easy. FE10 is harder, so who's good is relative to who is helping out more, and Eirika does not help her team as much as Micaiah helps hers.

On the flipside, Eirika ain't hindering as much as Micaiah is either.

Supposedly yes, except for the fact that a lot of characters (more than in other games anyway) can get a very similar mount.

And? An advantage is an advantage, a disadvantage is a disadvantage.

Her strength isn't as good as most units on her team. Eirika is two-rounding, you just said. Well, Micaiah is as well, except occasionally one-rounding. Otherwise, yeah, but so what?

They're both two rounding. Eirika has an easier time doing so, and you know why? She can afford to eat counter attacks because she can survive a couple and avoid a lot of them.

Alright. Micaiah, on the other hand, gets a weapon losing in power only to the strongest tome she can wield throughout the entire game at chapter 2 with no AS loss from it and 90 total uses. She's pretty much set.

And? She's not doubling with it. I don't think she even two rounds with it all the time, even if she can one shot the cavalry and knights in part I with it. Eirika can one round them with a rapier, anyway.

That doesn't help your side one bit.

No, but it goes by your logic in which someone sucks because everyone else is a lot better even that that someone is still helping. And everyone else ISN'T a lot better by the way, pretty much three swords to two thirds of the cast is being outperformed by her; Eirika also has some really good support partners to help.

(Light's a decent affinity by the way, in FE8 at least.)

At fighting perhaps. Luckily, she uses staves as you so plainly pointed out. After her best part of fighting is over is when she gets them also, so she's never rendered useless. She's still a decent fighter when you compare her to the rest of her team.

Not... really. She still can't eat counter attacks very well.

Micaiah doesn't need to. 1-2 range + staves says she doesn't have to see an enemy attack at all and still be a major help. Eirika has to see enemy combat because she has no decent ranged option, and although she may dodge axes, swords and lances can find her below average defense on occasion.

Except she'll be behind so often so she can't counter attack too often, once again. The fact that she has to be protected a lot also says plenty about her; her frailty and everything. I could definitely afford to use Pent on the frontlines because she could take a hit, despite being a mage.

Really, the only reason she needs to be in the backlines is because of her crappy durability, right? Because 1-2 can still afford the frontlines if they're durable enough or have enough evasion. Pent was durable enough with enough evasion to top it all off; Micaiah is the opposite.

Micaiah can do more than just fight, though. Are you just completely ignoring the staff option? I already explained why Micaiah doesn't need to see enemy attacks, so her frailty doesn't mean as much.

It still means stuff. The only reason she's protected in the first place is because she can't afford to take counter attacks.

It's how much they aid the team. Micaiah is healing, supporting Sothe, hitting hard, and occasionally one-shotting on a team that desperately needs that kind of help. Eirika is an average fighter on a team mainly consisting of overpowered units. If you just ignore the rest of the team, Eirika > Micaiah, but that's not an accurate comparison in the least.

Eirika is still bottom of High material at the lowest because of her massive availability and the fact that she can survive during that time.

If you ignore the rest of the team in both cases, you're judging raw quality. Micaiah can't stand up against the enemies very well unless she gets lots of protection, whereas Eirika can afford to be on the frontlines. WTA helps her early on against Axe users.

A scratched jewel in a pile of jewels is still better than a golden piece of crap in a pile of crap.

And from here, I take my leave in a point aside from this. I'm really poor at arguing what I'm trying to argue so...

Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Killer Poleax]

Part 2 was alright. Story-wise, it was pretty pointless. The only part of part 2 that I see is to reintroduce characters from PoR cause there would be way too many in part 3. I also don't like a lot of the characters in part 2.

Part 3, even though it's pretty easy, is probably my fave. I love the GMs and I'd rather play as characters I actually like than characters I have to play as cause there's no other options.

Part 4 is fun for me. I don't know what I'm missing but a lot of my characters aren't promoted by the time I reach part 4 (I don't bexp abuse a lot, maybe I need to more). So I've got a lot of 2nd tier units (and a few 3rd tier) kicking the Disciples of Order's asses. It's really satisfying for me.

Endgame was good, the only downside is that there weren't enough units you could bring. 6 characters are forced into endgame and out of those 6, Ike is the only one I'd actually take if given the choice. Honestly, I wish that no one was forced into endgame and they let you use 16 of your best units. Cause most of your units are probably better than Sothe, Micaiah, Sanaki, Kurthnaga, and Ena. I personally don't like any of those characters and I want to play as characters I actually like, not ones I'm forced to use. So most of the time, I have those 5 doing nothing in endgame (except Micaiah for healing).

[Florete]

I'd like to say that he's doing a pretty shitty job of frontlining if he can be two shotted.

When he's the best frontliner on the team, he's all you've got, even if it is shitty.

No, it's good for weakening stuff so others can get kills for experience.

Which, in essence, is the exact same thing.

The part before that is the main part I was referring to. Which is a good 30% of Part I.

3 chapters he's without an Iron Axe. Out of 12 maps, that's 25% of part 1, but it's not like he's being doubled or anything

Not all defenses are 100% perfect. The fact that Laura has piss poor defense means that you have no room for leniency; at least other healers allow for some extent of leniency.

Especially in her joining chapter, it's rather easy to keep her from taking any enemy attacks. And she's the only healer aside from Micaiah sacrificing. Near necessary in normal, absolutely essential in hard.

On the flipside, Eirika ain't hindering as much as Micaiah is either.

But Micaiah's not hindering the team. I've already explained this. Eirika isn't hindering, but she isn't helping very much.

And? An advantage is an advantage, a disadvantage is a disadvantage.

The point is that her 7 move isn't so much of an advantage when you can easily have more than half of your team with the exact same thing. When everyone can do it, the advantage is nullified.

They're both two rounding. Eirika has an easier time doing so, and you know why? She can afford to eat counter attacks because she can survive a couple and avoid a lot of them.

Eirika has to eat counter attacks, Micaiah does not, and therein lies the advantage.

And? She's not doubling with it. I don't think she even two rounds with it all the time, even if she can one shot the cavalry and knights in part I with it. Eirika can one round them with a rapier, anyway.

She two-rounds with it very often with that high magic of hers. And Micaiah can one-shot, where Eirika can one-round. This means Eirika is losing more of her weapon than Micaiah is. Add in the fact that Eirika only gets another Rapier if you choose her route and this is not as good.

No, but it goes by your logic in which someone sucks because everyone else is a lot better even that that someone is still helping. And everyone else ISN'T a lot better by the way, pretty much three swords to two thirds of the cast is being outperformed by her; Eirika also has some really good support partners to help.

(Light's a decent affinity by the way, in FE8 at least.)

Give me a list of characters Eirika is "outperforming."

Not... really. She still can't eat counter attacks very well.

No one on her team can eat counter attacks very well. This is why having a staff and 2 range makes her such a great asset to the team.

Except she'll be behind so often so she can't counter attack too often, once again. The fact that she has to be protected a lot also says plenty about her; her frailty and everything. I could definitely afford to use Pent on the frontlines because she could take a hit, despite being a mage.

Really, the only reason she needs to be in the backlines is because of her crappy durability, right? Because 1-2 can still afford the frontlines if they're durable enough or have enough evasion. Pent was durable enough with enough evasion to top it all off; Micaiah is the opposite.

Pent's a guy. But that's irrelevant anyway. Staves say "Hi." 2 range says "Hi." Also, two of her part 3 maps are all laguz, who are locked to one range. She can attack any of them without eating a counter attack.

What does Pent have to do with this discussion?

It still means stuff. The only reason she's protected in the first place is because she can't afford to take counter attacks.

Even if she had durability on par with the rest of her team, she'd still be behind more often because of what she can do relative to what they can do.

Eirika is still bottom of High material at the lowest because of her massive availability and the fact that she can survive during that time.

If you ignore the rest of the team in both cases, you're judging raw quality. Micaiah can't stand up against the enemies very well unless she gets lots of protection, whereas Eirika can afford to be on the frontlines. WTA helps her early on against Axe users.

A scratched jewel in a pile of jewels is still better than a less ugly piece of crap in a pile of crap.

Lolwut?

It's a good thing they both have teams then, isn't it? We're not debating solos here.

But that less ugly piece of crap is better for its pile than the scratched jewel is for its pile.

And from here, I take my leave in a point aside from this. I'm really poor at arguing what I'm trying to argue so...

Ok.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

I felt Pent was relevant because he was a magic user who could take the frontlines. You don't restrict someone with 1-2 range because they can't take the frontlines, you do it because they're too handicapped to do so which Pent really isn't. After all, it can take both direct and indirect counters while dishing out indirect damage (the former being useful, the latter being used most often).

But that less ugly piece of crap is better for its pile than the scratched jewel is for its pile.

Which is irrelevant because the scratched jewel is still good. Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

I felt Pent was relevant because he was a magic user who could take the frontlines. You don't restrict someone with 1-2 range because they can't take the frontlines, you do it because they're too handicapped to do so which Pent really isn't. After all, it can take both direct and indirect counters while dishing out indirect damage (the former being useful, the latter being used most often).

Which is irrelevant because the scratched jewel is still good.

But we weren't arguing Pent at all.

The less ugly piece of crap isn't in the same pile as the scratched jewel. When looking at the pile of jewels, you'd be turned away from the scratched jewel. When looking at the pile of crap, you'd be looking at the less ugly piece of crap. This is just a metaphor for our comparison, obviously no one is staring at a pile of crap in real life. For their respective piles, the less ugly piece of crap > scratched jewel. For their respective games, Micaiah > Eirika.

[Lord Raven]

But we weren't arguing Pent at all.

Do you even know what the point of that was? To compare. It makes it easier for me to say what I wish to say.

Let me start my argument over, since it's definitely easier for getting my point across... it just feels repetitive going against another post of yours which is why I copped out... but screw my earlier statement, here goes something.

Why would you have Micaiah in the backlines? Partly because of the extra 2 range, the other part is because she's frail as hell. However, Pent can easily hold his own, and he is a mage with 1-2 range as well. Micaiah is good even though she can only afford to attack from the backlines until the end of Part I (after which, only like three chapters become relevant anyway - they get progressively easier too) which is also only because she's frail? Eirika is good because she can afford frontlines (not backlines because then she can't attack!) and can dish out a counter attack against what she already weakens.

That covers both offense and defense, let's not forget that Eirika's either there for 3/4 or 100% of the entire game and thus has a chance to support with good characters in the game which boosts her usefulness...

Basically, enemies can gang up on one and they'll be alright, whereas enemies can gang up on another and... she'll get raped really badly. You can't possibly say that Eirika's worse than Micaiah even on a relative level. Hell, I was too hellbent on disproving that... I forgot to even ask you this! Who is outclassing Eirika exactly? I can think of Joshua, Seth, Franz, Ephraim, Tethys, Natasha, Moulder, Vanessa, Lute, Kyle, Forde, and who else?

How good each is for their own pile is irrelevant to how good each is overall, which is what should be measured. I myself would rather look at the scratched diamond than the golden crap; I'd rather overlook the crap as a whole and just stare at the scratched diamond.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Do you even know what the point of that was? To compare. It makes it easier for me to say what I wish to say.

Let me start my argument over, since it's definitely easier for getting my point across... it just feels repetitive going against another post of yours which is why I copped out... but screw my earlier statement, here goes something.

Why would you have Micaiah in the backlines? Partly because of the extra 2 range, the other part is because she's frail as hell. However, Pent can easily hold his own, and he is a mage with 1-2 range as well. Micaiah is good even though she can only afford to attack from the backlines until the end of Part I (after which, only like three chapters become relevant anyway - they get progressively easier too) which is also only because she's frail? Eirika is good because she can afford frontlines (not backlines because then she can't attack!) and can dish out a counter attack against what she already weakens.

That covers both offense and defense, let's not forget that Eirika's either there for 3/4 or 100% of the entire game and thus has a chance to support with good characters in the game which boosts her usefulness...

Basically, enemies can gang up on one and they'll be alright, whereas enemies can gang up on another and... she'll get raped really badly. You can't possibly say that Eirika's worse than Micaiah even on a relative level. Hell, I was too hellbent on disproving that... I forgot to even ask you this! Who is outclassing Eirika exactly? I can think of Joshua, Seth, Franz, Ephraim, Tethys, Natasha, Moulder, Vanessa, Lute, Kyle, Forde, and who else?

How good each is for their own pile is irrelevant to how good each is overall, which is what should be measured. I myself would rather look at the scratched diamond than the golden crap; I'd rather overlook the crap as a whole and just stare at the scratched diamond.

But what Pent can do means nothing in a Micaiah vs. Eirika debate because he's a completely different character in a completely different game.

Other characters can do Eirika's job much better. One character shares Micaiah's job: Laura.

Micaiah comes with a full support already and her chapters are some of the toughest in the game.

Eirika can't be ganged up too much or she can die as well, unless it's only axes ganging up on her. Thing is, axes aren't the majority enemy weapon, not at all. Oh, and I asked for a list of people she was outclassing, but I suppose that'll do. I can add Colm, Tana, Cormag, Artur, Gerik, and possible Ross and Garcia.

Wrong. The only way to compare these characters is how well they do in their game relative to the rest of their team and how much they are aiding the team. Otherwise, it isn't an accurate comparison. You're basically saying you'd rather just play FE8 over FE10 because the characters perform better. While that may be true, it's only opinion.

[Lord Raven]

But what Pent can do means nothing in a Micaiah vs. Eirika debate because he's a completely different character in a completely different game.

You've splattered the point of a Micaiah vs Eirika debate here as well. They're two completely different characters in completely different games too.

Other characters can do Eirika's job much better. One character shares Micaiah's job: Laura.

If the job is getting killed easily, sure.

Micaiah comes with a full support already and her chapters are some of the toughest in the game.

Full support is the only pro in this statement. Her chapters being the tougher one really doesn't help her cause one bit, especially since she's a very frail mage with low AS.

Eirika can't be ganged up too much or she can die as well, unless it's only axes ganging up on her. Thing is, axes aren't the majority enemy weapon, not at all. Oh, and I asked for a list of people she was outclassing, but I suppose that'll do. I can add Colm, Tana, Cormag, Artur, Gerik, and possible Ross and Garcia.

Early on Eirika is surviving plenty fine, then. When her supports and speed build up, it's cool.

Colm's offense is terrible. Even worse than Eirika's supposedly is.

Tana's not as good as Eirika for about a quarter of the game. You know, the quarter where you have the two of them at the same time and have to help build up Tana.

Cormag is on the same boat as Tana, only with less evade and more defense.

Artur and Gerik were people I forgot, though I was on the edge with Gerik.

Garcia has poor AS; Ross, while not too hard to baby, is still annoying to baby and his offense is decent. He's really not much better than Eirika by any means, especially because he's pretty much promoting at the fog of war chapter (I forget the number). Eirika sustains a solid level lead for quite a bit.

Even if most of that's right, you're talking about a thirds of the chars here. I'm sure a lot more than a thirds of the chars in FE10 are better than Micaiah.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

You've splattered the point of a Micaiah vs Eirika debate here as well. They're two completely different characters in completely different games too.

Yes, they are, so why are we comparing them? Because you asked if there were any lords in the series worse than Micaiah and I answered with Eirika.

If the job is getting killed easily, sure.

The job is healing and/or light magic. Healing is near essential in Micaiah's chapters.

Full support is the only pro in this statement. Her chapters being the tougher one really doesn't help her cause one bit, especially since she's a very frail mage with low AS.

Perhaps, but you mentioned Eirika's availability in her game so I thought to mention the difficulty of the chapters Micaiah is in. A strange argument, but one nonetheless.

Early on Eirika is surviving plenty fine, then. When her supports and speed build up, it's cool.

She's the frailest member of her team until you get Ross and Neimi, who both have good ranged options.

Character comparisons

I'm not debating other characters of her game, but I do find them all better than Eirika. I will, however, mention Colm's thief utility that you seem to have overlooked. I even put Neimi and L'Arachel higher than Eirika, but I know that won't get far.

Even then, you're talking about a thirds of the chars here. I'm sure a lot more than a thirds of the chars in FE10 are better than Micaiah.

If you add my list to yours, that's 18/33 playable characters, not including Orson. That's more than half. Micaiah is only being compared to the characters on her team, and while they may generally be better fighters, she's needed for her healing utility. She > a good number of the characters on her team.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

Yes, they are, so why are we comparing them? Because you asked if there were any lords in the series worse than Micaiah and I answered with Eirika.

And now I'm using Pent to compare to Micaiah to prove a point. See how that works?

The job is healing and/or light magic. Healing is near essential in Micaiah's chapters.

Problem: Micaiah doesn't heal in Part I.

Another problem? Their offenses really blow (in Micaiah's case, it goes from somewhat decent in Part I [only due to Thani's one-shots] to mediocre). If Laura even gets an offense.

She's the frailest member of her team until you get Ross and Neimi, who both have good ranged options.

Frailest but second quickest. To Seth, of all people.

I'm not debating other characters of her game, but I do find them all better than Eirika. I will, however, mention Colm's thief utility that you seem to have overlooked. I even put Neimi higher than Eirika, but I know that won't get far.

Thief utility is not Eirika's job. He's not apart of the comparison if you're strictly comparing the offense of both of them.

Neimi can't attack at melee range until promotion, Eirika can. Neimi's not bad and all but... only one potential attack per turn is really not as good as Eirika's especially because Eirika probably doubles more and does more damage as a result.

The rest of your post seems like a cop out anyway.

If you add my list to yours, that's 18/33 playable characters, not including Orson. That's more than half. Micaiah is only being compared to the characters on her team, and while they may generally be better fighters, she's needed for her healing utility. She > a good number of the characters on her team.

Right I miscounted.

If you discount the ones I already discounted/refuted you probably do still get something close to 13/33. I was pretty iffy on Gerik and at first iffy on Artur - I'd class them as about a half each, but I don't feel like it. Since I wasn't thinking straight and was talking strictly offense, I'm taking another two off so it's 11/33. Moulder and Natasha are healers for at least two thirds of the game.

She's needed for her healing utility in three or four chapters (give me a sec to think, how many dawn chapters are there in Part III?), and in Part IV not necessary and in endgame, not wholly necessary either. They're a large three chapters but... that's her standout moment as a healer. And just a healer, not an offensive unit.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

And now I'm using Pent to compare to Micaiah to prove a point. See how that works?

No. What Pent can do means nothing. It's like saying Gilliam sucks because Oswin has better defense (I don't know if that's true, it's just an example).

Problem: Micaiah doesn't heal in Part I.

Another problem? Their offenses really blow (in Micaiah's case, it goes from somewhat decent in Part I [only due to Thani's one-shots] to mediocre). If Laura even gets an offense.

She does have Sacrifice. It isn't as good as staves, but it's useful.

Micaiah's offense is about average, same as Eirika I might point out, throughout pretty much the entire game. Laura's offense, once promoted, is actually pretty good with her 70% Magic, Skill, and Speed growths. Caps screw her over, but she still doubles rather often and can one-round on occasion. But combat wasn't the point of that argument. Healing. The team needs it.

Frailest but second quickest. To Seth, of all people.

In the early chapters she can still get hit rather often.

Thief utility is not Eirika's job. He's not apart of the comparison if you're strictly comparing the offense of both of them.

Neimi can't attack at melee range until promotion, Eirika can. Neimi's not bad and all but... only one potential attack per turn is really not as good as Eirika's especially because Eirika probably doubles more and does more damage as a result.

The rest of your post seems like a cop out anyway.

Colm has thief utility, it puts him a step above Eirika. We were comparing which characters were better than Eirika. By that logic of yours, Moulder and Natasha should not have been on your list.

On promotion is where Neimi shines. Same movement and weapon as Eirika, but with another weapon to add to it. On promotion, Neimi > Eirika.

Ok.

If you discount the ones I already discounted/refuted you probably do still get something close to 13/33. I was pretty iffy on Gerik and at first iffy on Artur - I'd class them as about a half each, but I don't feel like it. Since I wasn't thinking straight and was talking strictly offense, I'm taking another two off so it's 11/33. Moulder and Natasha are healers for at least two thirds of the game.

So because they don't do the same thing Eirika does makes them worse? lolno.

She's needed for her healing utility in three or four chapters (give me a sec to think, how many dawn chapters are there in Part III?), and in Part IV not necessary and in endgame, not wholly necessary either. They're a large three chapters but... that's her standout moment as a healer. And just a healer, not an offensive unit.

Three chapters in part 3. She's still a great healer in part 4, healing just isn't needed as much. In fact, with her staff level, she's the best healer on her team, still, since Mist is in Ike's group and Rhys's durability is even more fail than Micaiah's. Micaiah is still hitting heavily with Thani as well. She's also had access to Paragon this entire time, which would mean she isn't too badly underleveled.

She's also the best unit for Rexaura since the other Saints suck for endgame and her caps are all better.

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

i hate the desert stage.

I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT.

1. the only units that can move well are the fliers and mages....and its a pretty damn big stage, too.

2. the enemies!! I SWEAR THE ENEMY NUMBER IS OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!!!!

3. it'll take SOOOOOO MANY TURNS to get someone to collect all the goodies buried in the sand (see also reason 1)

4. the bk can only move what...2 spaces in that level???? 2 SPACES!!! if you have killed all the enemies around his warp point, then that defeats the purpose of him ever appearing!! That said, if you dont kill all the ememies around his warp point...then you just lost a fuck-load of exp. Thus defeating the purpose of the bk ever appearing.

5. if a laguz, such as scrimir's gauge depletes all the way...well...he's pretty much boned.

[Lord Raven]

No. What Pent can do means nothing. It's like saying Gilliam sucks because Oswin has better defense (I don't know if that's true, it's just an example).

The point flew over your head.

You're saying that Micaiah should be on the backlines because of her 1-2 range right, being able to use the 2? I'm saying that Pent can take both the front and the back, because of his making full use of the 1-2 range. Because he's not frail. The only reason you restrict a mage to the back is because they're frail, which is a point against them for many reasons: no counter attack, and general frailty.

She does have Sacrifice. It isn't as good as staves, but it's useful.

No, it's not. Have you seen her HP stat? At best it's good for abuse because of Sacrifice -> Laura using a Staff so they both get EXP, but it's not even worth mentioning considering how Vulneraries do a better job.

Micaiah's offense is about average, same as Eirika I might point out throughout pretty much the entire game.

Worse than average. She can't counter attack properly or double. Eirika can do both.

Laura's offense, once promoted, is actually pretty good with her 70% Magic, Skill, and Speed growths.

Laura's not even reaching promotion unless you go completely out of your way.

In the early chapters she can still get hit rather often.

Against axe users? She's probably the best candidate for the second boss too with that Rapier.

Colm has thief utility, it puts him a step above Eirika. We were comparing which characters were better than Eirika. By that logic of yours, Moulder and Natasha should not have been on your list.

Colm's thief utility is only a utility step, the main point was that people did Eirika's job better. Eirika does her job - of being an offensive person - worse than 1/3 of the game whereas Micaiah does her offensive job worse than 1/3 of the game. The comparison was initially due to offense, and I believe should stay that way.

On promotion is where Neimi shines. Same movement and weapon as Eirika, but with another weapon to add to it. On promotion, Neimi > Eirika.

For the 13 or 14 chapters before that? Eirika wins. Eirika > Neimi because even if Neimi has one more weapon type available, Eirika can use stronger swords and win in offense that way. And her evade gets consistent enough that any weighing down won't affect her - Neimi has to sword to that spot with Iron or Steel Swords, I forget which.

So because they don't do the same thing Eirika does makes them worse? lolno.

Offensively, yes. That was the original point I tried to argue, and I'm sticking by it.

She's also the best unit for Rexaura since the other Saints suck for endgame and her caps are all better.

I don't think anybody's using Rexaura at all, and I don't think she'll be having much use of it anyway. I'd rather she not do mediocre (especially in relative terms) damage to the dragons and just sit back and heal; she's risking getting killed that way too. (15 uses is NOT cool).

Micaiah's "hitting heavily" against armors and mounts with Thani at best. Everything else takes about a quarter damage to a thirds of their damage from her by part IV.

Healing not being needed as often later equates to her use dropping substantially. You still have room to kill a lot in the later parts and Eirika does a pretty decent job at it.

Being useful in some way, shape or form in all chapters > Being a forced detriment to your team in all chapters available. She's a helper against select enemies in Part I due to one shotting armors and such, and in part III because of healing but not much much.

[Florete]

The point flew over your head.

You're saying that Micaiah should be on the backlines because of her 1-2 range right, being able to use the 2? I'm saying that Pent can take both the front and the back, because of his making full use of the 1-2 range. Because he's not frail. The only reason you restrict a mage to the back is because they're frail, which is a point against them for many reasons: no counter attack, and general frailty.

Is Pent in Tellius? No. What he can do means nothing in regards to what Micaiah can do. How many times must I say it?

Frailty is a point against her, I'll give you that. It's just that it isn't a huge point because she doesn't have to see enemy attacks often, if at all.

No, it's not. Have you seen her HP stat? At best it's good for abuse because of Sacrifice -> Laura using a Staff so they both get EXP, but it's not even worth mentioning considering how Vulneraries do a better job.

At base HP, that's still healing 14 HP for an ally, which will allow them to do something other than heal themself on that turn and still grants Micaiah experience.

Worse than average. She can't counter attack properly or double. Eirika can do both.

She can counter attack, but she doesn't need to. Eirika can double, but she still doesn't one-round. Micaiah does about the same amount of damage to her enemies in one round, occasionally more with bonus damage, but only uses one shot of her weapon and doesn't take a counter attack. That's better.

Laura's not even reaching promotion unless you go completely out of your way.

Not necessarily. She can be promoted at about level 15 and still be fine because of her awesome growths.

Against axe users? She's probably the best candidate for the second boss too with that Rapier

Chapter one already has more lance users than axe users. Seth is a hell of a lot better for the boss anyway.

Colm's thief utility is only a utility step, the main point was that people did Eirika's job better. Eirika does her job - of being an offensive person - worse than 1/3 of the game whereas Micaiah does her offensive job worse than 1/3 of the game. The comparison was initially due to offense, and I believe should stay that way.

The comparison was "Who in her game is better than her?" I'm not comparing anyone on offensive ability alone if they can do more than that.

For the 13 or 14 chapters before that? Eirika wins. Eirika > Neimi because even if Neimi has one more weapon type available, Eirika can use stronger swords and win in offense that way. And her evade gets consistent enough that any weighing down won't affect her - Neimi has to sword to that spot with Iron or Steel Swords, I forget which.

Before promotion. Eirika > Neimi. After, Neimi > Eirika. This is also because Neimi promotes sooner.

Offensively, yes. That was the original point I tried to argue, and I'm sticking by it.

That's stupid. Characters aren't judged on offense alone if they can do more than that.

I don't think anybody's using Rexaura at all, and I don't think she'll be having much use of it anyway. I'd rather she not do mediocre (especially in relative terms) damage to the dragons and just sit back and heal; she's risking getting killed that way too. (15 uses is NOT cool).

It's the best tome she has to use, why would you not use it? The dragons are so slow even she can double them, and I don't remember them being accurate either. Then there's the spirits that can't even hurt her.

Micaiah's "hitting heavily" against armors and mounts with Thani at best. Everything else takes about a quarter damage to a thirds of their damage from her by part IV.

Healing not being needed as often later equates to her use dropping substantially. You still have room to kill a lot in the later parts and Eirika does a pretty decent job at it.

With her massive magic, Thani's 8 might, and the fact she's attacking resistance, she's hitting everything heavily all the way through parts 1 and 3, and still doing a decent job in part 4.

The later parts are also easier in both games I might add. So what if Eirika shines there? (She doesn't really anyway) It's the easiest part of the game. Micaiah is less useful later because it's the easiest part of the game, but she's still fairly useful because characters still need healing on occasion.

Being useful in some way, shape or form in all chapters > Being a forced detriment to your team in all chapters available.

I agree. This is why Micaiah > Eirika.

Ok, I know you didn't mean it that way, but seriously, I think I've said enough. Micaiah is not nearly as bad as you make her out to be, and Eirika not nearly as good as you make her out to be.