OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

Fiona only contributes to opening doors in 1-7,Sothe has more move, spd, hit & str and leaves fiona biting the dust. If we aim for efficient clear, Fiona can't go with sothe to the seize point, not with those bases.I'm still Meg>Fiona, I'll elaborate when I have a laptop, not a 3ds at hand.

If you watch dondon's 5 turn strategy, there is indeed demand for a unit with canto to help move Micaiah forward on turn 1.

[-Cynthia-]

Pelleas's chip in 4-2 also isn't completely worthless I guess, since someone needs to take care of the reinforcements. He's probably doing better damage than an untrained Danved or whatever other filler brought to the Hawk Army.

[Narga_Rocks]

Pelleas's chip in 4-2 also isn't completely worthless I guess, since someone needs to take care of the reinforcements. He's probably doing better damage than an untrained Danved or whatever other filler brought to the Hawk Army.

I suppose. And Danved or some other untrained filler can hold a forged thunder so that Pelleas is actually capable of hitting the broad side of a barn. His damage is much lower then, though. Still, perhaps there might be some strategy where he's needed?

[Vykan12]

Base Pelleas with forged thunder 3HKOes most enemies with 80-90 display hit. Cool, but are we so short on quality units that this has any meaningful impact?

For instance, Tibarn's army has Ranulf. At base level he has 36 atk and doubles everything besides SMs. This is good enough for a 2RKO on most enemies. A --/13 Zihark can do the same with a silver sword, let alone a quality weapon. Base level Lucia with a forge can also pull 2RKOes.

And pretty much any reject unit can pull 3HKOes. I mean base Calill with a spirit dust can pull off what Pelleas is doing. Hell, Base Nealuchi can 3RKO warriors and SMs in this map. And there's plenty of rejects that can do >= Pelleas' chip so long as they're not neglected the entirety of the game.

I suppose Pelleas does come for free, but otherwise he's extremely useless. If you have so much as 2-3 filler units (and you will- Tauroneo, Ranulf, Lucia, DONE), Pelleas isn't saving turns with regards to taking out reinforcements.

In 4-5 now he's taking a slot we could've used for something useful like more Reyson shovers, and now we have even better combat fillers in Bastian and Volke. In 4-E he's worse than Oliver as a staffbot, and that's assuming we throw him a promotion item that carries a large opp. cost. Even if we don't count his deployment against him there he's next to useless.

I see Kurthnaga's a tier below him. I'd take 5 def in 4-E-5 over Pelleas' contributions any day, even if it involves Kurth being sacrificed to an AOE.

[Vicious Sal]

Jill? Does a slightlly better job at it, slightly better bases. And shove can do the same thing. And it's only one turn as you said, I don't call that contribution unlless Fiona was the only one for it. Jill, Shove, Give/Take chain.

[Anouleth]

Even base level untransformed Kurth that's close enough to kiss Ashera won't get OHKOed by either of her AoE attacks.

Moreover, I don't really see that +5DEF has any value in 4-E-5, any more than Pelleas using Fenrir to finish kills in 4-2.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Anouleth

[Vykan12]

Moreover, I don't really see that +5DEF has any value in 4-E-5, any more than Pelleas using Fenrir to finish kills in 4-2.

If you're careless about spacing having Kurth besides Rafiel could be the difference between him surviving and dying? Probably a better use would be 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 shoving. The 4-E-4 1 turn is pretty tight, so having Kurth for free is helpful, especially if the rescue staff broke by this point.

[Narga_Rocks]

Even base level untransformed Kurth that's close enough to kiss Ashera won't get OHKOed by either of her AoE attacks.

Moreover, I don't really see that +5DEF has any value in 4-E-5, any more than Pelleas using Fenrir to finish kills in 4-2.

Fenrir has terrible hit. I don't think Pelleas cracks 70 on any enemies with the thing. Probably under 60 on some, even.

Base Pelleas with forged thunder 3HKOes most enemies with 80-90 display hit. Cool, but are we so short on quality units that this has any meaningful impact?

For instance, Tibarn's army has Ranulf. At base level he has 36 atk and doubles everything besides SMs. This is good enough for a 2RKO on most enemies. A --/13 Zihark can do the same with a silver sword, let alone a quality weapon. Base level Lucia with a forge can also pull 2RKOes.

And pretty much any reject unit can pull 3HKOes. I mean base Calill with a spirit dust can pull off what Pelleas is doing. Hell, Base Nealuchi can 3RKO warriors and SMs in this map. And there's plenty of rejects that can do >= Pelleas' chip so long as they're not neglected the entirety of the game.

I suppose Pelleas does come for free, but otherwise he's extremely useless. If you have so much as 2-3 filler units (and you will- Tauroneo, Ranulf, Lucia, DONE), Pelleas isn't saving turns with regards to taking out reinforcements.

I suspected he'd be mostly useless even with a reasonably accurate weapon. Too bad for Pelleas. I still think forged thunder chip, nearly meaningless though it is, is a better use of Pelleas than missing randomly with Fenrir. I hate when he misses for me with his dark weapons. I've had multiple tries where a Pelleas miss caused me 2 or 3 more turns.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

If you're careless about spacing having Kurth besides Rafiel could be the difference between him surviving and dying?

Even with a dead Rafiel 2-turning 4-E-5 is not that hard. Moreover, it's better to Smite Rafiel away from Ashera than to have Kurth stand next to him: being 2 spaces further away from Ashera reduces her damage by 6 while Kurth's bonus only reduces it by five.

Probably a better use would be 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 shoving. The 4-E-4 1 turn is pretty tight, so having Kurth for free is helpful, especially if the rescue staff broke by this point.

Pelleas can also shove.

[Vicious Sal]

ok, to get back to the Meg Vs Fiona: That double facepalm pic was more for you if you didn't get the context of my post, general move (not the class, to prevent other misunderstandings. I know that Fiona has 1 more move than Meg indoors.

1-7 Fiona has horrid Hit, Att, Spd, Def. She cannot help with rescue stuff except turn one, but hey, we have someone better for that, Jill. Meg has a nice speed growth she could have put to use so she at least isn't doubled. Maybe not doubling anything else except armors and a lone fighter? Fiona has 1 more move, but can't put it to use, she's to frail and isn't a glass cannon.

1-8: Hey look who's missing!

1-9: Micaiah wins.

1-E Hey! Indoors, they both do a whole lot of nothing! they probably both still have to take the stairs, Meg isn't tier 2 probly. Meg has a niche however, Speed, with growth that has had time to develop, and Res growth, that had time to develop. And reinforcements are 3/4 Mages! Fiona can't handle them yet. Shame it's HM, otherwise Meg would have WTA against the fighter. They both do not contribute on the front, but meg can get EXP better in the rear.

3-6:

Meg has the possibility of leaving the island, which is a whole lot more than having more move but being stuck. She won't have the best Defense, but that's the same for most of the Dawn Brigade. Unless your a favorited Aran or something, you won't be tinked by cats.

3-12: Fiona wins this one, move can be sort of put to use, if she has got the stats.

3-13: Hey, look, who has to take the long way, who can go down the ledge. And Very very very maybe, Luna Ike? nah, Luna, noway, but she can go down the ledge. Meg wins this if she has the stats for it, just like fiona wins 3-12 if she has the stats for that.

Part four: Fiona doesn't like: Desert, Ledges, Swamp& thicket. Well, where should she go? She does shit in 4-3, has to take the long way in 4-4, and can't reach Valtome, and Izuka is safe from her anyway.

eg doesn't like desert either, she doesn't like swamp, but can cross it at least. However, she's got RES, and can climb ledges, she can at least tank the sleep bishop in 4-4.

having more move isn't helping you if it's being cut or if you can't go anywhere.

-Has only till 2PM each day, so don't expect a reply straight away.-

[RNG Princess]

@Sal I find Fiona pretty useful in 1-7 if I want to feed Jill a few extra kills along the way or feed Volug a pure water on turn 1. She rescues and drops Miccy while Jill/Volug fight, and she's never in danger because Jill and Volug press forward. I also let Miccy act as a healer incase Jill gets hurt, Miccy heals her and then Fiona rescues her. She's going to need shoves on turn 5 though but there are many free units by then (Eddie/Vika/Zihark/Sothe etc). Then after dropping Miccy she can always move and find the seal ^^'.

On the other hand Meg is pretty useful at rescuing Leo in previous chapters and doing other things like chipping, at least in my experience ^^' Meg also seems alot easier to use than Fiona as a fighter and she can actually hit enemies

Edited September 27, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Dark Sage]

ok, to get back to the Meg Vs Fiona: That double facepalm pic was more for you if you didn't get the context of my post, general move (not the class, to prevent other misunderstandings. I know that Fiona has 1 more move than Meg indoors.

So basically "no u."

1-7 Fiona has horrid Hit, Att, Spd, Def. She cannot help with rescue stuff except turn one, but hey, we have someone better for that, Jill. Meg has a nice speed growth she could have put to use so she at least isn't doubled. Maybe not doubling anything else except armors and a lone fighter? Fiona has 1 more move, but can't put it to use, she's to frail and isn't a glass cannon.

Meg has 8 base speed though and it's very very difficult to feed her experience with her ass move, ass damage, and ass hit. Meg doubling anything is pretty lol. Also did you look at the Fiona strategy used in 1-7? I guarantee it's more useful than Fiona failing at an enemy.

1-8: Hey look who's missing!

1-9: Micaiah wins.

Why was the 1-9 thing necessary?

1-E Hey! Indoors, they both do a whole lot of nothing! they probably both still have to take the stairs, Meg isn't tier 2 probly. Meg has a niche however, Speed, with growth that has had time to develop, and Res growth, that had time to develop. And reinforcements are 3/4 Mages! Fiona can't handle them yet. Shame it's HM, otherwise Meg would have WTA against the fighter. They both do not contribute on the front, but meg can get EXP better in the rear.

Meg's resistance and speed growths are good but her bases as noted are ass, so no, she's not really going to do anything useful against an enemy. Furthermore, what level are you estimating Meg will be at? If it's anything more than like, level 10, I will laugh heartily.

And also, Fiona can pick up somebody like the Black Knight and help with the Rescue-Drop ferrying Jill does. Already more than Meg again failing at enemies for self improvement.

3-6:

Meg has the possibility of leaving the island, which is a whole lot more than having more move but being stuck. She won't have the best Defense, but that's the same for most of the Dawn Brigade. Unless your a favorited Aran or something, you won't be tinked by cats.

First off, Meg's probably not even at Tier 2 yet and even if she was, her HP is ass and her defense is nothing to write home about. She's doubled by cats and likely can't take a cat and a tiger on EP. Also, why do we want either of them to move off the island again?

3-12: Fiona wins this one, move can be sort of put to use, if she has got the stats.

3-13: Hey, look, who has to take the long way, who can go down the ledge. And Very very very maybe, Luna Ike? nah, Luna, noway, but she can go down the ledge. Meg wins this if she has the stats for it, just like fiona wins 3-12 if she has the stats for that.

Newsflash. Anybody who's got the stats can handle Ike, but it is damn near impossible for Meg to reach those stats.

Part four: Fiona doesn't like: Desert, Ledges, Swamp& thicket. Well, where should she go? She does shit in 4-3, has to take the long way in 4-4, and can't reach Valtome, and Izuka is safe from her anyway.

Who said otherwise?

Meg doesn't like desert either, she doesn't like swamp, but can cross it at least. However, she's got RES, and can climb ledges, she can at least tank the sleep bishop in 4-4.

lol.

[Vykan12]

Why is anyone taking Meg and Fiona's combat seriously? Especially beyond part 1... Is hitting an enemy for 3 damage at 43 display hit suddenly useful?

[Dark Sage]

Why is anyone taking Meg and Fiona's combat seriously? Especially beyond part 1... Is hitting an enemy for 3 damage at 43 display hit suddenly useful?

That is exactly what I wondered myself. I couldn't believe somebody would actually seriously use their combat for their comparison.

[RNG Princess]

That is exactly what I wondered myself. I couldn't believe somebody would actually seriously use their combat for their comparison.

but I thought if a character is "allowed to be deployed" argument would still consider their combat no matter how bad it is ^^' (I'm sure Meg would beat Fiona there). I'm probably misunderstanding the point.

[Vykan12]

If you apply some rule where a unit's forced to use their combat and be raised, then Meg vs Fiona would come out to who's hurting the team less when used seriously. That's pretty hard to judge since even at their full potential, both units are riddled with issues like terrible caps.

Has anyone performed a draft where they were forced to use Meg or Fiona? If anything, it would make an interesting read.

[NinjaMonkey]

(I'm sure Meg would beat Fiona there).

Fiona has a higher Str growth than Meg (40% compared to Meg's 35%) and uses lances (which have better Mt than the swords that Meg is locked to until promotion). So, I fail to see how you can see Meg > Fiona combat wise.

Edited September 28, 2011 by NinjaMonkey

[Lord Raven]

but I thought if a character is "allowed to be deployed" argument would still consider their combat no matter how bad it is ^^' (I'm sure Meg would beat Fiona there). I'm probably misunderstanding the point.

I don't think "used" means "going out of their way to be 'up to par' (in the loosest sense of the word)" though. They're probably being in a less-than-optimal efficiency playthrough where combat still doesn't matter, and utility probably ends up mattering more if that makes sense. Having that said, the fact that Fiona can contribute more to an optimal and even an efficient playthrough simply on the grounds of utility; Meg can only Shove which is not at all unique to her.

[RNG Princess]

I have used Fiona in HM (in that old PT) she's quite hard to use but I guess free imbue is useful once she's ok to not die to everything and cards can be put to her use for minimal accurate chipping, i've never used Meg though but Meg does have more flexibility of everything and more availability, if being raised to fight. (if you save two ams scrolls for Meg she can use Brave Axe third promotion but i'm not sure how fast she can reach that).

Edited September 28, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Loki Laufeyson]

Personally, i found Meg harder to use than Fiona. But then again, i dont play hard modes. ;)

[Anouleth]

Using Fiona is more like pounding nails into your eye sockets, while using Meg is more like ripping your tongue out with pliers.

[Lord Raven]

I compare using Meg to putting your balls in a vice and Fiona to just putting your arm in a vice, but I'm not sure which you prefer.

[Vicious Sal]

I think there should be a "Draft Like tournament". Where one gets The Draft free units, and get's a Draft team consisting of the lowest ranked characters on the Tier list, Hard Mode. Everyone would get the same team, everyone uses it differently, based on the Turncount results we can see whose opinion on what has more meaning. (Person X says Kurth is in Mediocre tier but has 540 turns, most of which were endgame, so his vote has less meaning ) vs (Person y who says Kurth is bottom of bottom tier, and has 319 turns, with a good endgame Turncount)

Something like the does Haar need to be Banned draft, but this time, everyone gets the same team of crap to sort them out on the tier list.

And meg will SHINE!

[incognit0]

1-7 Fiona has horrid Hit, Att, Spd, Def. She cannot help with rescue stuff except turn one, but hey, we have someone better for that, Jill. Meg has a nice speed growth she could have put to use so she at least isn't doubled. Maybe not doubling anything else except armors and a lone fighter? Fiona has 1 more move, but can't put it to use, she's to frail and isn't a glass cannon.

1-E Hey! Indoors, they both do a whole lot of nothing! they probably both still have to take the stairs, Meg isn't tier 2 probly. Meg has a niche however, Speed, with growth that has had time to develop, and Res growth, that had time to develop. And reinforcements are 3/4 Mages! Fiona can't handle them yet. Shame it's HM, otherwise Meg would have WTA against the fighter. They both do not contribute on the front, but meg can get EXP better in the rear.

3-6 Meg has the possibility of leaving the island, which is a whole lot more than having more move but being stuck. She won't have the best Defense, but that's the same for most of the Dawn Brigade. Unless your a favorited Aran or something, you won't be tinked by cats.

3-13: Hey, look, who has to take the long way, who can go down the ledge. And Very very very maybe, Luna Ike? nah, Luna, noway, but she can go down the ledge. Meg wins this if she has the stats for it, just like fiona wins 3-12 if she has the stats for that.

Part four: Fiona doesn't like: Desert, Ledges, Swamp& thicket. Well, where should she go? She does shit in 4-3, has to take the long way in 4-4, and can't reach Valtome, and Izuka is safe from her anyway.

eg doesn't like desert either, she doesn't like swamp, but can cross it at least. However, she's got RES, and can climb ledges, she can at least tank the sleep bishop in 4-4.

having more move isn't helping you if it's being cut or if you can't go anywhere.

Alright yeah, that whole argument doesn't work. Fiona's minor utility is still more useful and necessary for efficiency compared to Meg's combat. Sure, we can pretend like some idiot is going to use Meg for combat, but it doesn't mean like it is going to help our efficiency. Fiona helps our efficiency in rather minor but quantifiable ways mostly by utilizing her movement and canto. Canto is remarkably useful in and of itself, but generally Jill is off doing far more important things so all the little tasks fall to Fiona.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think there should be a "Draft Like tournament". Where one gets The Draft free units, and get's a Draft team consisting of the lowest ranked characters on the Tier list, Hard Mode. Everyone would get the same team, everyone uses it differently, based on the Turncount results we can see whose opinion on what has more meaning. (Person X says Kurth is in Mediocre tier but has 540 turns, most of which were endgame, so his vote has less meaning ) vs (Person y who says Kurth is bottom of bottom tier, and has 319 turns, with a good endgame Turncount)

Something like the does Haar need to be Banned draft, but this time, everyone gets the same team of crap to sort them out on the tier list.

And meg will SHINE!

It should be more like everyone gets one of the bottom tier units and whoever does best while using them. Problem there, of course, is that everyone has different skill levels so it solves nothing regardless.