FE9 Tier List v2

[Zkirsche]

I personally find that for Lethe the guage is not a problem because she transforms at the beginning of the battle.

We don't play that fast. After a measly 4 turns, she untransforms after 8 rounds of combat. Then it takes her 5 turns just to transform again. So that's like, 5/10 turns where she's transformed. She may be a godess and the best unit on your team in that time, but she isn't it long enougth to get her higher.

[Dat Nick]

Hey, wasn't Lethe>Stefan agreed on?

[Zkirsche]

Hey, wasn't Lethe>Stefan agreed on?

No, despite the fact that it's the same thing as Mordy vs Stefan, except Lethe's def leads aren't as great.

Is Rofl's taking of resources and lack of enemy phase really better than healing utility lategame? Because honestly, I can't see why Rofl > Elincia. Or why he isn't in bottom with Lucia/Bastian. He gets better than those two, yes, but only after a tonne of resources, and i don't believe that warrants a tier difference.

Heck, he's not even a tier better than Lucia statistically. Giving Rofl 2 levels per chapter and he end up as level 20/3 at chapter 24. Comparison time with some band usage:

Level 20/3 Rofl with a forged silver bow, 'A' Rhys: 34 HP, 36 Atk, 19 AS, 58 Avo, 14 Def, 9 Res

Base Lucia with a forged silver sword: 36 HP, 33 Atk, 23 AS, 62 Avo, 10 Def, 8 Res

Lucia is superier offensively for having an enemy phase and doubling the occasional enemy Rofl doesn't (there are 9 enemies which she can double that Rofl can't). Durably, it's a win for Rofl. But it's not big enougth to surpass Lucia's offensive lead by a whole tier. It's arguably not better than it at all.

Endgame, giving Rofl 2 levels per chapter and Lucia 1 (Funny how I'm giving a unit who is worse offensively twice as much exp but, whatever), and we get a comparison that looks like this:

Level 17 Lucia with a forged silver, 'A' Ilyana: 40 HP, 36 Atk, 26 AS, 86 Avo, 13 Def, 11 Res

Level 20/13 Rofl with a forged silver, 'A' Rhys: 40 HP, 40 Atk, 24 AS, 72 Avo, 18 Def, 12 Res

Lucia still wins offensively for the same reasons, except there are 8 enemies that she can double that Rofl can't. 2 of those are dragons, however, and being better against strong enemies like those is a positive indeed. Lucia still loses durability.

Personally, I find that they should be in the same tier.

[-Cynthia-]

Hey, wasn't Lethe>Stefan agreed on?

Other way around, IIRC.

I agree with kirsche. Lucia is pretty comparable to a lot of the units in Low anyway, I can bring up my post of how she roflcrushes Ulki offensively if you want.

[Florete]

I didn't agree with Rolf > Elincia in the first place. I was only arguing him > Lucia, and he should still be in Bottom as well.

[grandjackal]

I would personally say the 3 Mov difference is pretty much a closer for Ranulf vs. Taur. Ranulf also has better offense unless Taur is in Resolve mode, but getting Taur into Resolve mode takes a while(harder than transforming Ranulf, especially when Demi Band is considered).

And I'd say Ranulf has a big problem in not being active all the time along with no range. Basically, Taur can counter far far far far far more often and can eventually fix his offense problems, while Ranulf has to deal with at times being semi-useless. Speaking of transformation, Ranulf has the problem of getting off the ground, as he isn't like Lethe and Janaff with the insta-transform. Taur also doesn't have to deal with magic blasting his ass.

[-Cynthia-]

And I'd say Ranulf has a big problem in not being active all the time along with no range. Basically, Taur can counter far far far far far more often and can eventually fix his offense problems, while Ranulf has to deal with at times being semi-useless. Speaking of transformation, Ranulf has the problem of getting off the ground, as he isn't like Lethe and Janaff with the insta-transform. Taur also doesn't have to deal with magic blasting his ass.

Or we could just give Ranulf the Demi Band. He also transforms almost instantly anyway, it's like turn 2 or 3 instead of turn 1, not that big a deal.

Don't overhype Ranulf's weaknesses, fire mages and laguzslayer enemies are pretty uncommon.

[grandjackal]

Or we could just give Ranulf the Demi Band. He also transforms almost instantly anyway, it's like turn 2 or 3 instead of turn 1, not that big a deal.

I believe Muarim and Mordy could put it to better use.

Don't overhype Ranulf's weaknesses, fire mages and laguzslayer enemies are pretty uncommon.

Chapter 23, joining chapter

1x Myrmidon lv 20 (laguzslayer)

30 hp, 22 atk (31 eff), 16 AS, 115 hit, 38 avo, 9 def, 5 res, 8 crit, 6 cev

1x Sword Knight lv 20 (laguzslayer)

34 hp, 23 atk (32 eff), 14 AS, 101 hit, 34 avo, 15 def, 8 res, 5 crit, 6 cev

Chapter 24

1x Sage lv 7 (bolganoe, mend)

30 hp, 26 atk, 12 AS, 114 hit, 27 avo, 10 def, 17 res, 6 crit, 3 cev - This is a 2RKO as a note

25

1x Swordmaster lv 6 (laguzslayer [d])

32 hp, 23 atk (32 eff), 20 AS, 116 hit, 45 avo, 10 def, 6 res, 24 crit, 5 cev -Can't double him either

26

1x Warrior lv 9 (laguz axe)

48 hp, 31 atk (44 eff), 13 AS, 97 hit, 32 avo, 13 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 6 cev

1x Sniper lv 10 (laguz bow)

33 hp, 24 atk (34 eff), 16 AS, 123 hit, 38 avo, 15 def, 11 res, 25 crit, 6 cev

1x Sage lv 8 (meteor, elfire, mend)

31 hp, 27 atk, 9 AS, 100 hit, 22 avo, 11 def, 18 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

1x Sage lv 9 (bolganoe, mend)

32 hp, 27 atk, 13 AS, 117 hit, 30 avo, 10 def, 17 res, 7 crit, 4 cev

1x Paladin lv 8 (laguz axe)

36 hp, 28 atk (41 eff), 15 AS, 93 hit, 36 avo, 16 def, 11 res, 5 crit, 6 cev

1x General lv 10 (laguz lance)

42 hp, 31 atk (43 eff), 9 AS, 108 hit, 23 avo, 23 def, 13 res, 7 crit, 5 cev

27

1x Sniper lv 7 (laguz bow)

33 hp, 25 atk (35 eff), 14 AS, 116 hit, 33 avo, 13 def, 9 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

1x Sage lv 7 (meteor, elfire, chest key [d])

30 hp, 26 atk, 8 AS, 100 hit, 20 avo, 9 def, 18 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

28

1x Swordmaster lv 15 (laguzslayer)

39 hp, 28 atk (37 eff), 23 AS, 133 hit, 54 avo, 12 def, 9 res, 27 crit, 8 cev

1x Sage lv 9 (bolganoe)

31 hp, 25 atk, 13 AS, 117 hit, 30 avo, 10 def, 17 res, 7 crit, 4 cev

1x Sage lv 9 (meteor, bolganoe)

31 hp, 29 atk, 10 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 11 def, 17 res, 7 crit, 4 cev

Endgame

1x General lv 15 (laguzslayer)

44 hp, 31 atk (40 eff), 10 AS, 115 hit, 26 avo, 27 def, 13 res, 8 crit, 6 cev

Not as uncommon as you think. Mages are especially deadly, they have an easy time 2RKOing him, and even worse he can't counter.

Speaking of slayer effect, Taur has access to Knight Killers, Laguz Lances and Heavy Spears. Let's not forget forges.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Yea I was gonna type out some giant argument.... but then I got bored/lazy/got a new graphics card so I played lots of l4d/ and playing an h5 mostly female characters run through.

[-Cynthia-]

Yes, but we aren't necessarily using Muarim/Mordy every playthrough. Actually Ranulf doesn't care too much if they use it, since minimal combat will get him transformed by turn 2 regardless.

Yeah, that's like 2 enemies a map that hit for effective damage. It's not like they even hurt Ranulf much, for example the laguzslayer enemies on his opening chapter aren't even necessarily 5RKOing him(31-22= 9, Ranulf has 46 HP). It's really quite insignificant.

Taur can obviously have more Atk than Ranulf once forges come into play, but it's the lack of doubling that does him in. Ranulf usually doesn't have doubling issues, Taur only doubles Generals. We can't even fix his speed with the KW because he's overlevled and thus doesn't have many more levelups to go. Although if Taur actually chooses to use his 1-2 range, he now doesn't hit as hard as Ranulf and he doesn't double. Countering at 1-2 range isn't so great when you're 3RKOing (it can even get worse).

Edited July 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Yes, but we aren't necessarily using Muarim/Mordy every playthrough. Actually Ranulf doesn't care too much if they use it, since minimal combat will get him transformed by turn 2 regardless.

Yet what if we are? There's also Ulki to consider, ya know. Ulki's fucking begging for it.

That is also "combat" of him doing dick, where Taur could have used it to become closer to rapeface mode, AND could have ohhh I dunno, actually RETALIATED in some form.

Yeah, that's like 2 enemies a map that hit for effective damage. It's not like they even hurt Ranulf much, for example the laguzslayer enemies on his opening chapter aren't even necessarily 5RKOing him(31-22= 9, Ranulf has 46 HP). It's really quite insignificant.

Chapter 26 is littered with them, and he fears fire mages like the plague. Let's not get carried away here.

Taur can obviously have more Atk than Ranulf once forges come into play, but it's the lack of doubling that does him in. Ranulf usually doesn't have doubling issues, Taur only doubles Generals. We can't even fix his speed with the KW because he's overlevled and thus doesn't have many more levelups to go. Although if Taur actually chooses to use his 1-2 range, he now doesn't hit as hard as Ranulf and he doesn't double. Countering at 1-2 range isn't so great when you're 3RKOing (it can even get worse).

I could consider not needing the KW an advantage, as that means plenty of others can put it to use.

He makes up for his lack of doubling (half the time anyways) with far superior countering. Taur always can counter melee, he can counter with forges or slayer weapons, can counter range, and once he gets doubling with Resolve, he can easily put his far superior strength to use from there. It can be maintained as well with vulneraries, while we can't stop Ranulf from being periodically useless.

[Shadow Mir]

Speaking of Ranulf, he also happens to join in the same chapter with Petrine as the boss.. Needless to say, he'll want to avoid her like the plague.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[-Cynthia-]

Yet what if we are? There's also Ulki to consider, ya know. Ulki's fucking begging for it.

Why are we using Ulki again? We generally don't consider implications on the bottom tiers, because Ulki isn't going to be fielded on almost any runthrough.

That is also "combat" of him doing dick, where Taur could have used it to become closer to rapeface mode, AND could have ohhh I dunno, actually RETALIATED in some form.

True, having Ranulf attacked while untransformed isn't all that helpful, but it's a way to get past his gauge issue, as is the Demi Band.

Chapter 26 is littered with them, and he fears fire mages like the plague. Let's not get carried away here.

There are a grand total of 2 fire mages on Chapter 26, out of 50 enemies. Being worse against 4% of the map is rather insignificant. I could bring up tons of tiny leads Ranulf has over Tauroneo, but we generally try to focus on things that actually matter.

I could consider not needing the KW an advantage, as that means plenty of others can put it to use.

Then the way you consider things is stupid. If he "didn't need the KW", that would mean his Spd would be sufficient. It's not, becuse Tauroneo doesn't double most enemies. Ranulf does. There aren't really many ways to fix Taur's Spd outside of Resolve.

He makes up for his lack of doubling (half the time anyways) with far superior countering. Taur always can counter melee, he can counter with forges or slayer weapons, can counter range, and once he gets doubling with Resolve, he can easily put his far superior strength to use from there. It can be maintained as well with vulneraries, while we can't stop Ranulf from being periodically useless.

We can't stop Ranulf from being periodically useless- unless we're idiots who don't know how to equip a Demi Band. I already mention the range, it makes Taur go from 2-3RKOing to 3-4RKOing, so it's a tradeoff.

Far superior strength? Ranulf has more 3 Str than Taur at base, and he grows faster due to being lower level, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Taur does have more Atk since weapons> claw at this point, but Ranulf still does a lot more damage when he doubles and Taur doesn't(like all the time lol). As for weapons, rememeber these are resources Taur is taking up(forging opportunities are limited), Ranulf's claws are free.

@ above So will Taur, he gets doubled and takes a lot of damage since she hits Res. Although honestly I don't see Taur getting all the way over there in a reasonable amount of time anyway

Edited July 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

Speaking of Ranulf, he also happens to join in the same chapter with Petrine as the boss.. Needless to say, he'll want to avoid her like the plague.

Petrine is static, that's not exactly a hard thing to do :/

[Shadow Mir]

Petrine is static, that's not exactly a hard thing to do :/

You have a point. I guess she's not that big a factor.

[Vykan12]

If you d00ds want Elincia > Rolf, that’s fine with me. She was supposed to move up in the last topic anyway. Maybe > Nasir?

Now for the Rolf vs Lucia comparison:

Level 20/3 Rofl with a forged silver bow, 'A' Rhys: 34 HP, 36 Atk, 19 AS, 58 Avo, 14 Def, 9 Res

Base Lucia with a forged silver sword: 36 HP, 33 Atk, 23 AS, 62 Avo, 10 Def, 8 Res

Lucia is superier offensively for having an enemy phase and doubling the occasional enemy Rofl doesn't (there are 9 enemies which she can double that Rofl can't).

Having an enemy phase doesn’t automatically make you better than Rolf. What you keep overlooking is how bad Lucia’s durability actually is. In her joining chapter, anything with 22-27 atk 3HKOes her while 28+ atk 2HKOes. That’s 55% of enemies. If that weren’t bad enough, chapter 24 is a joke chapter compared to what comes next. Only 24% of the enemies are promoted here, whereas 94% are promoted in 25 and 100% are promoted in 26. Then Lucia’s 2 range options are basically nonexistent (limited to SS until the runesword shows up, and she has fierce competition for both), which means she has to take player phase counters virtually all the time. If she’s 3HKOed, she can now only take 2 hits on enemy phase. Then obviously if she’s 2HKOed, a single hit could take her down on E. phase.

My point being, who cares if Lucia can counter on enemy phase? She can’t do anything with it since she’ll be facing death risks almost immediately. Then she’s probably one of your worst attackers being fielded (before forges, she can’t even ORKO some SMs) so giving her an active enemy phase is counter-productive.

Also, wtf at Lucia getting 2 silver forges in 6 chapters. You’re giving Rolf forges too but he has a bow monopoly so he could be using killer/brave/laguz instead. For the doubling point, note that Rolf could’ve used a spd band to mitigate that advantage by 2 (in fact, at the levels you provided, 20/13 Rolf ties --/17 Lucia in spd). Or he could increase his atk lead to 5+ points, which is 10 per double, and that’s obviously non-negligible.

[-Cynthia-]

Lucia's concrete durability is bad, but once you factor in Avo, her death rates are low...sort of. Not to beat a dead horse, but with a support she avoids a ton...she can't be touched by axes and is facing true hit of like 20% under WTD.

Lucia can avoid taking counters in several ways, the aforementioned Runesword, targeting enemies who can't hit back(priests,snipers) and can be mitigated by targeting sfaer enemies, axe users for example are most of the enemies 2RKOing her but their hit rates are pretty crappy. For example, the axe user with the highest hit on Ch25 only has about 25% true on base level, unsupported Lucia. There's no way Rolf ca have an enemy phase.

And yeah, her enemy phase isn't zomg stellar, but she is low tier. It's better than anyone in Low up to Mia at any rate.

I'm not sure what's so unfair about Lucia getting the same number of forges as Rolf. Yeah, Rolf has a bow monopoly, but not that many people use swords very often, mostly just people locked to swords. Lucia's competing with like 3 units who use swords seriously at worst.

[Vykan12]

Lucia's concrete durability is bad, but once you factor in Avo, her death rates are low...sort of. Not to beat a dead horse, but with a support she avoids a ton...she can't be touched by axes and is facing true hit of like 20% under WTD.

The problem is, her supporters suck. Janaff and Bastian? If they're concurrently in play 20% of the time, that's 80% where Lucia's durability still blows. And I daresay Bastian's likelihood of being in play alone is minuscule seeing as though he's arguably the worst unit in the game.

There's no way Rolf ca have an enemy phase.

Of course there is. Put Rolf against a group of archers/snipers and he counters. Force enemies to attack him at 2 range and you'll get the same result, though he might need provoke to entice enemies to attack him. Put him at the very edge of a sage's range and he'll counter. Granted, it's far more limited than units with actual 1 range, but it still exists.

I'm not sure what's so unfair about Lucia getting the same number of forges as Rolf.

The problem is that she's taking up 2 forges in a small amount of chapters, whereas Rolf might only take up 2 in the entire game. Mathematically, her forge uses/chapter is much higher.

Speaking of forges, there's something I forgot to consider: there's a point in time where only iron can be forged but steel is buyable. Hence Rolf taking an iron forge isn't even that big of a deal. Instead of robbing a unit of +5 atk, it's only +2.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Before debating Rolf any further, I think we should agree on how many units a good team generally consists of and see just how much BEXP Rolf should get when distributing it equally among your team.

For example, if the team number is 10, then every1 in the team gets 10% BEXP. Anything above that would be favoritism. Say you give someone in a team like the one mention 15% BEXP for a few chapters... for every chapter he/she got that 15%, a penalty should be thrown in for later chapters so this unit should get only 5% later. I think that's how Vykan suggested BEXP use for Rolf when he first made that argument but this should be limited to around 20%-25%.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Sirius

[-Cynthia-]

Before debating Rolf any further, I think we should agree on how many units a good team generally consists of and see just how much BEXP Rolf should get when distributing it equally among your team.

For example, if the team number is 10, then every1 in the team gets 10% BEXP. Anything above that would be favoritism. Say you give someone in a team like the one mention 15% BEXP for a few chapters... for every chapter he/she got that 15%, a penalty should be thrown in for later chapters so this unit should get only 5% later. I think that's how Vykan suggested BEXP use for Rolf when he first made that argument but this should be limited to around 20%-25%.

Yeah I personally consider anything over 10% favoritism, though even with 20% Rolf was pretty terrible. 3RKOing and getting 2RKOed back is almost on par with Fiona level suckage.

Elincia should move up. She isn't worse at healing than any of the healers and she's mobile. Her combat parameters are pretty bad, but she's good at killing mages I guess. I would say that Elincia's healing for 3 chapters> Nasir's move issues and subpar offense for 2 IMO. Elincia actually helps in killing Ashnard more than Nasir does in most situations, since Physicing or Fortifying Giffca/Ike is pretty useful and Nasir does like no damage without Resolve, we might as well not even put him in Ashnard's range, he'll just slow us down.

Edited July 29, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

*Insert stuff about Lucia's durability*

Base Lucia: 36 HP, 62 Avo, 10 Def

2x Fighter lv 20 steel axe: 27 atk, 92 hit -- a 3RKO at 20 displayed, without real, chance of death is 0.8%

5x Sword Knight lv 15-17 steel sword: 20 atk, 96 hit -- a 4HKO at 34 displayed, without real, chance of death is 1.336336%

2x Archer lv 17 steel bow: 27 hp, 18 atk, 106 hit -- a 5RKO at 44 displayed, without real, chance of death is 1.64916224%

4x Myrmidon lv 20 steel sword: 21 atk, 112 hit -- a 4RKO at 50.50 real, chance of death = 6.5037750625

1x Wyvern Rider lv 20 javelin: 23 atk, 92 hit -- a 3RKO at 30 displayed, without real, chance of death is 2.7%.

This seems pretty good to me. Especially since the real chance of death for many of these (All save the myrmidon) is lower due to real hit being lower.

Chapter 25, 20/13 Lucia + 'C' Ilyana has these stats: 37 HP, 69.5 avo, 10 Def

3x Cat lv 9-10 claw: 27 atk, 114 hit -- a 3RKO at 44.5 displayed, without real, chance of death is 8.8121125%

2x Warrior lv 6-7 steel axe: 27 atk, 94 hit -- a 3RKO at 13.5 displayed. Without real, chance of death is 0.2460375%

3x Sniper lv 7 steel bow: 23 atk, 111 hit -- a 3RKO at 41.5 displayed, without real, chance of death is 7.1473375%

1x Halberdier lv 6 steel lance: 38 hp, 23 atk, 105 hit -- a 3RKO at 45.5 displayed hit, without real, chance of death is 9.4196375%

Still not too bad. Every real chance of death is <8%.

Also, wtf at Lucia getting 2 silver forges in 6 chapters. Youre giving Rolf forges too but he has a bow monopoly so he could be using killer/brave/laguz instead.

Who does Lucia face competition with swords against? Ike is a definite, but Zihark, Stefan aren't. I'd say she faces 2 people for competition usually. Sounds a lot? Ike gets Ragnell then doesn't even need another sword. Oops, now it's just 1. I hardly see that as stopping Lucia getting 2 forges, especially when a few units (Jill, Kieran etcetera) don't even need forges.

Besides, they were silver forges, and they're not available the entire game.

Edited July 29, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

@Kirsche: Eh... why the well does that quoted post have my name on it and leads to one of my posts that says something completely different? O_o

Yeah I personally consider anything over 10% favoritism, though even with 20% Rolf was pretty terrible. 3RKOing and getting 2RKOed back is almost on par with Fiona level suckage.

We know Rolf is terrible but the question is whether he's really in the same tier as Lucia or Bastian when used. He was assumed to be bottom tier because of the assumption that "he's getting way too many resources just to end up mediocre" or something of that nature but Vykan showed that wasn't the case. Also, I'm not seeing how being available in 3 chapters with mediocre damage and just healing puts Elincia over Rolf.

[Zkirsche]

@Kirsche: Eh... why the well does that quoted post have my name on it and leads to one of my posts that says something completely different? O_o

tever, it's fixed though.

Sorry about that, I was replying to your post, but then changed my mind and debated against Vykan instead. Wha

Also, I'm not seeing how being available in 3 chapters with mediocre damage and just healing puts Elincia over Rolf.

Doing something useful for 3 chapters > not doing something useful for 24 chapters.

[Dat Nick]

Oh please, 24 chapters? Don't you think you're overblowing things more than a little? There's no way Rolf is still a negative contribution after 20/1.

[-Cynthia-]

Just because he's not necessarily a huge negative anymore doesn't mean he's a positive. He's still inferior to most units.

We also have to consider how much negative utiltiy he racks up. If he promotes in Chapter 21, he's been a neg for 12 and a pos for 8, which isn't good. Elincia can heal without resources or being a negative.

Edited July 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-