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Nephinel

Why is Micaiah is often called a Mary Sue?

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I got this from Tvtropes.org. The whole article is here, if your intrested in reading up on it.

The closest thing to a widely agreed-on definition is a character who has too many positive characteristics, and too few genuine flaws to be believable or interesting. Of course, despite what many tongue-in-cheek litmus tests claim, there's no objective standard for what qualifies as "too many." One thing almost everyone who uses the term agrees on is that it is generally bad. Note, that although it can be used a good way, it is almost invariably a negative.

See these articles for takes on Mary Sue that focus on certain groupings of Common Mary Sue Traits:

•Black Hole Sue — Everything is about me!

•Purity Sue — Love me!

•God Mode Sue — Power overwhelming!

•Jerk Sue — Your petty rules do not apply to me!

•Possession Sue — My favourite character is an even better version of me!

•Copy Cat Sue — I'm just like my favorite character, but even kewler!

•Relationship Sue — He's my boyfriend now!

•Sympathetic Sue — Feel sorry for me!

•Anti Sue — I'm genuinely useless, but everybody still loves me!

•Villain Sue — I have you now, my beautiful slaves! Ahahahahahahaha!

•Fixer Sue — No, that's not how it's supposed to go!

•Parody Sue — Why don't they fall for my buxom charms?

•Thirty Sue Pileup — We are Legion.

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I really think Micaiah is too flawed to be a true Sue. She gets captured a lot (IE she's not that strong canonically) and makes a lot of very morally questionable decisions that a lot of characters (many that we consider "good") don't agree with.

Ike is more Sueish than her when you think about it, he just doesn't get called out on it as much because he's a guy. Pretty much everybody outside of Yune and Shinon thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and he's undefeatable canonically. Ike does have his flaws as well, but they are fairly minor (some social skills issues when talking to nobles, which is usually set up as an endearing character trait rather than a flaw regardless). Just think about the epilogue, the hero everyone ends up talking about is Ike, not Micaiah, I guess she's just seen as a vessel or something.

Granted, Micaiah does gain a lot of friends very quickly and she is loved and adored by the masses which is pretty Sueish. However, most FE lords fall into this category due to the nature of the games (lots of people are going to have to like you pretty quickly if you're going to recruit people).

Really I don't see the Mary Sue label being any more justified here than on Ike, Eirika, or Ephraim.

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Just some points to consider about Micaiah:

-is unfailingly gentle and soft-spoken

-is always willing to sacrifice herself to save others

-can read minds, see the future, and talk to animals

-is the love interest of established characters (Pelleas, Sothe)

-is the secret sister of another established character (Sanaki)

-is a secret princess (of Begnion)

-is the chosen of a goddess (Yune)

-becomes queen of a country that she is not the princess of (Daein) just because the people there love her so much

-has silver hair that everyone feels the need to point out

-fairly average in gameplay

-has Sothe as a love interest

-does some highly morally questionable actions in the name of Daein

-was called out on those highly morally questionable actions at that moment

-is Branded

-has perfect understanding of the Ancient Language

Edited by Nephinel

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Just some points to consider about Micaiah:

-is always willing to sacrifice herself to save others

-can read minds, see the future, and talk to animals

-is the secret sister of another established character (Sanaki)

-is a secret princess (of Begnion)

-is the chosen of a goddess (Yune)

-becomes queen of a country that she is not the princess of (Daein) just because the people there love her so much

-has perfect understanding of the Ancient Language

This. She is a character with relationships that give her awesome powers nobody else has, is related to Sanaki and Lehran, and is completely selfless to a unreasonable point.

Also the love intrests apply to one of the sub classifications.

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The term for a male Sue is "Gary Stu". Besides, Ike had too much character development in POR to be considered a Stu.

Mary Sues/ Gary Stus do not necessarily mean they are underdeveloped, these aren't really related to one another.

I wouldn't say Ike is a Gary Stu myself actually, but my point is that he and Micaiah are not far off on the scale, especially when we're talking about Ike in RD. Ike has some pretty silly stuff about him too, like him being the only one able to wield Ragnell (and thus being the only one able to kill Ashera). He isn't related to Altina as far as we know, so this is pretty similar to a lot of the stuff Micaiah has, it doesn't always make that much sense but they put it in for plot reasons.

I did find the constant praise of Micaiah pretty annoying and over the top sometimes, but Ike receives similar treatment.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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Micaiah makes so many terrible decisions throughout the entire game but the game tries to make it look like she means well.

SHE IS A FUCKING TERRIBLE LEADER. And arguably the biggest sue this series has ever seen.

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Just some points to consider about Micaiah:

-is unfailingly gentle and soft-spoken

-is always willing to sacrifice herself to save others

-can read minds, see the future, and talk to animals-is the love interest of established characters (Pelleas, Sothe)

-is the secret sister of another established character (Sanaki)

-is a secret princess (of Begnion)

No at both. You obviously got the furst from some trope, she can't talk to animals, she can only speak and read galdrar, which Soren can read galrar too.

She is not secretly a princess when she was thought dead, she was supposed to be the empress, making Sanaki the princess. And again, she can't be the secret sister of Sanaki when Sanaki wasn not aware of her existence or when nbody even knew they had a connection.

And Pelleas is not her love interest.

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The term for a male Sue is "Gary Stu". Besides, Ike had too much character development in POR to be considered a Stu.

Mary Sues/ Gary Stus do not necessarily mean they are underdeveloped, these aren't really related to one another.

I wouldn't say Ike is a Gary Stu myself actually, but my point is that he and Micaiah are not far off on the scale, especially when we're talking about Ike in RD. Ike has some pretty silly stuff about him too, like him being the only one able to wield Ragnell (and thus being the only one able to kill Ashera). He isn't related to Altina as far as we know, so this is pretty similar to a lot of the stuff Micaiah has, it doesn't always make that much sense but they put it in for plot reasons.

I did find the constant praise of Micaiah pretty annoying and over the top sometimes, but Ike receives similar treatment.

Well, I do have to agree with you that Ike does have some Stuish qualities in him, but I'll argue that he wasn't/didn't have alot in POR.

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Ike does have Sue tendencies. Big ones. But in PoR is pretty obvious that hes not really a full on Sue. He yells at the Apostle and gets called on it. He feels hes not cut out to run the GMs. There are other things too. In RD, if you had not played the first game, yeah youll go "shit! what a Sue!" So i can see it.

Micaiah is a Sue. Having one "What The Hell Hero" moment doesnt disqualify you as a Sue. (you need a few of those.) She does get a What The Hell, Hero from Sothe and Ike but only in one chapter. The fact is, SHES the "secret" apostle, SHES the vessel Yune uses, SHES got powers no one else does, Shes even got that defining physical trait people point out all the time. Silver hair. (she also wears purple, the color of Sue.) After 3-E, everyones all "Micaiah yer so wonderful!! <3" even though they were on opposing sides. I mean, what? She also goes on to RULE DAEIN in the epilogue! I mean, come on. Yeah shes a Sue.

The biggest Mary Sue example, Nephinel is in fact Bella Swan from Twilight. Shes the best example of a Sue ive ever seen. She makes Micaiah look like a really well rounded character. :|

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-can read minds, see the future, and talk to animals-is the love interest of established characters (Pelleas, Sothe)

No at both. You obviously got the furst from some trope, she can't talk to animals, she can only speak and read galdrar, which Soren can read galrar too.

Well she does talk to that blasted bird...and Volug when he's in Wolf form.

And Pelleas is not her love interest.

Thankfully!

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Again, it's called "Galdrar" and they are Laguz.

Actually, it's called ancient language. Heron songs are called Galdrar (plural of Galdr), but the language is simply known as the ancient language.

Edited by Randomly Predictable

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Just some points to consider about Micaiah:

-is unfailingly gentle and soft-spoken

-is always willing to sacrifice herself to save others

-can read minds, see the future, and talk to animals-is the love interest of established characters (Pelleas, Sothe)

-is the secret sister of another established character (Sanaki)

-is a secret princess (of Begnion)

No at both. You obviously got the furst from some trope, she can't talk to animals, she can only speak and read galdrar, which Soren can read galrar too.

She is not secretly a princess when she was thought dead, she was supposed to be the empress, making Sanaki the princess. And again, she can't be the secret sister of Sanaki when Sanaki wasn not aware of her existence or when nbody even knew they had a connection.

And Pelleas is not her love interest.

"Galdrar" is the plural of "galdr", the herons' songs. It is not the name of the language. I don't know where people get this idea.

Sure, she was supposed to be the empress, but that doesn't mean she is. Sanaki wound up as the empress instead, so Micaiah was indeed, a secret princess.

Sanaki not knowing about her sister and nobody else knowing who Micaiah actually was is EXACTLY what makes her Sanaki's secret sister. What the hell are you on about?

Yes, Pelleas isn't her love interest, but it is hinted that he likes her.

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Just some points to consider about Micaiah:

-is unfailingly gentle and soft-spoken

-is always willing to sacrifice herself to save others

-can read minds, see the future, and talk to animals-is the love interest of established characters (Pelleas, Sothe)

-is the secret sister of another established character (Sanaki)

-is a secret princess (of Begnion)

No at both. You obviously got the furst from some trope, she can't talk to animals, she can only speak and read galdrar, which Soren can read galrar too.

She is not secretly a princess when she was thought dead, she was supposed to be the empress, making Sanaki the princess. And again, she can't be the secret sister of Sanaki when Sanaki wasn not aware of her existence or when nbody even knew they had a connection.

And Pelleas is not her love interest.

"Galdrar" is the plural of "galdr", the herons' songs. It is not the name of the language. I don't know where people get this idea.

It's simply referred to as the ancient language. Just thought you should know.

Edited by Randomly Predictable

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I really think Micaiah is too flawed to be a true Sue. She gets captured a lot (IE she's not that strong canonically) and makes a lot of very morally questionable decisions that a lot of characters (many that we consider "good") don't agree with.

Ike is more Sueish than her when you think about it, he just doesn't get called out on it as much because he's a guy. Pretty much everybody outside of Yune and Shinon thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and he's undefeatable canonically. Ike does have his flaws as well, but they are fairly minor (some social skills issues when talking to nobles, which is usually set up as an endearing character trait rather than a flaw regardless). Just think about the epilogue, the hero everyone ends up talking about is Ike, not Micaiah, I guess she's just seen as a vessel or something.

Granted, Micaiah does gain a lot of friends very quickly and she is loved and adored by the masses which is pretty Sueish. However, most FE lords fall into this category due to the nature of the games (lots of people are going to have to like you pretty quickly if you're going to recruit people).

Really I don't see the Mary Sue label being any more justified here than on Ike, Eirika, or Ephraim.

This.

All the FE main characters ar Mary-Sues to a certain extent, but people pick on Micaiah because she has stuff like silver hair and a unique magic power only she can use (instead of blue hair and a unique magic sword only Ike can use?) The fact that gameplay wise, she's the worst lord since Roy, or that she actually makes mistakes and has to do morally questionable actions, unlike any NA lord ever doesn't seem to register. Or sometimes, they take the worst of both - not only is she a terrible combatant and an evil, incompetent ruler, she's (somehow) also overly perfect and the writers obviously favour her. So a lot of the hatred Micaiah gets seems unwarranted.

(Also, about FE9 Ike sometimes being rude and saying the wrong thing... it's a flaw, but nothing bad ever comes of it aside from the occasional telling-off. And it's never portrayed in a negative light either, it's just him being 'honest' and 'forthright' rather than 'crude' or 'not thinking about what he's saying'. So it's not really a flaw.)

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I really think Micaiah is too flawed to be a true Sue. She gets captured a lot (IE she's not that strong canonically) and makes a lot of very morally questionable decisions that a lot of characters (many that we consider "good") don't agree with.

Ike is more Sueish than her when you think about it, he just doesn't get called out on it as much because he's a guy. Pretty much everybody outside of Yune and Shinon thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and he's undefeatable canonically. Ike does have his flaws as well, but they are fairly minor (some social skills issues when talking to nobles, which is usually set up as an endearing character trait rather than a flaw regardless). Just think about the epilogue, the hero everyone ends up talking about is Ike, not Micaiah, I guess she's just seen as a vessel or something.

Granted, Micaiah does gain a lot of friends very quickly and she is loved and adored by the masses which is pretty Sueish. However, most FE lords fall into this category due to the nature of the games (lots of people are going to have to like you pretty quickly if you're going to recruit people).

Really I don't see the Mary Sue label being any more justified here than on Ike, Eirika, or Ephraim.

This.

All the FE main characters ar Mary-Sues to a certain extent, but people pick on Micaiah because she has stuff like silver hair and a unique magic power only she can use (instead of blue hair and a unique magic sword only Ike can use?) The fact that gameplay wise, she's the worst lord since Roy, or that she actually makes mistakes and has to do morally questionable actions, unlike any NA lord ever doesn't seem to register. Or sometimes, they take the worst of both - not only is she a terrible combatant and an evil, incompetent ruler, she's (somehow) also overly perfect and the writers obviously favour her. So a lot of the hatred Micaiah gets seems unwarranted.

(Also, about FE9 Ike sometimes being rude and saying the wrong thing... it's a flaw, but nothing bad ever comes of it aside from the occasional telling-off. And it's never portrayed in a negative light either, it's just him being 'honest' and 'forthright' rather than 'crude' or 'not thinking about what he's saying'. So it's not really a flaw.)

Tons of lords have unique magical swords only they can use. Micaiah has magical powers only she can use. Relations to the goddess. Doesn't get attacked by Ashera, spirits, or Lehran.

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I really think Micaiah is too flawed to be a true Sue. She gets captured a lot (IE she's not that strong canonically) and makes a lot of very morally questionable decisions that a lot of characters (many that we consider "good") don't agree with.

Ike is more Sueish than her when you think about it, he just doesn't get called out on it as much because he's a guy. Pretty much everybody outside of Yune and Shinon thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and he's undefeatable canonically. Ike does have his flaws as well, but they are fairly minor (some social skills issues when talking to nobles, which is usually set up as an endearing character trait rather than a flaw regardless). Just think about the epilogue, the hero everyone ends up talking about is Ike, not Micaiah, I guess she's just seen as a vessel or something.

Granted, Micaiah does gain a lot of friends very quickly and she is loved and adored by the masses which is pretty Sueish. However, most FE lords fall into this category due to the nature of the games (lots of people are going to have to like you pretty quickly if you're going to recruit people).

Really I don't see the Mary Sue label being any more justified here than on Ike, Eirika, or Ephraim.

This.

All the FE main characters ar Mary-Sues to a certain extent, but people pick on Micaiah because she has stuff like silver hair and a unique magic power only she can use (instead of blue hair and a unique magic sword only Ike can use?) The fact that gameplay wise, she's the worst lord since Roy, or that she actually makes mistakes and has to do morally questionable actions, unlike any NA lord ever doesn't seem to register. Or sometimes, they take the worst of both - not only is she a terrible combatant and an evil, incompetent ruler, she's (somehow) also overly perfect and the writers obviously favour her. So a lot of the hatred Micaiah gets seems unwarranted.

(Also, about FE9 Ike sometimes being rude and saying the wrong thing... it's a flaw, but nothing bad ever comes of it aside from the occasional telling-off. And it's never portrayed in a negative light either, it's just him being 'honest' and 'forthright' rather than 'crude' or 'not thinking about what he's saying'. So it's not really a flaw.)

Tons of lords have unique magical swords only they can use. Micaiah has magical powers only she can use. Relations to the goddess. Doesn't get attacked by Ashera, spirits, or Lehran.

So are the herons Stu's? I suppose there are 3 of them, but in PoR there was just Reyson. I'm not sure about "relations to the goddess", though they were basically the keepers of the song, since Micaiah didn't originally know the words. (Although I think she "felt" them or something in that scene and didn't need the herons or Mist anyway)

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Lyn was a pretty big Sue. Micaiah was just a very noticeable Sue. She was designed as a Sue. its obvious. Ike is a Sue as well, just on a lesser extent.

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It's simply referred to as the ancient language. Just thought you should know.

What makes you think I didn't know that?

I'm sure you did, but not everyone does. Other people in this thread may not know, and I am attempting to clarify this point. It is, after all, quite a common misconception.

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It's simply referred to as the ancient language. Just thought you should know.

What makes you think I didn't know that?

I'm sure you did, but not everyone does. Other people in this thread may not know, and I am attempting to clarify this point. It is, after all, quite a common misconception.

Fair enough. But you quoted me when you said that, so I thought it was directed at me. Yeah.

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