FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Radiant Dragon]

I think C-staves alone should put Lucius above Erk. All Erk really has over Lucius is slightly more speed later (they both should be doubling most things anyway), a small availability lead and a better weapon type.

[Silvercrow]

LM Robe/Ring, easier promotion, better combat in terms of strength, free recruitment, and a whole lot of sweet utility- she makes the 4 turn of Port of Badon possible (and even if you don't do the 4-turn you are probably still using her for the fact that she makes that chapter suck a lot less- marching a unit through the trees at the top is a huge pain in the balls no matter how you slice it), she does the awesome carry in Ch. 16 that lets you drop Hector and/or Marcus on the ridge and make a beeline for the throne rather than futzing around in the forest, she can carry Matthew in Ch. 18, which speeds that chapter up slightly, and all in all provides not only significant utility before Fiora shows up, but also has excellent potential above Fiora even after she joins.

I know Florina > Fiora, but I'm not sure I see the tier gap. I mean, compare Fiora to the other people above her in upper-mid tier:

Harken: I might be willing to give way on this one since Harken is really good combat-wise. However, he joins late and is only a combat unit with no additional utility, so he is easily substituted.

Geitz: Requires that your lords be level 50, which is more or less impossible on maximum efficiency. Aside from that, he has the same problem as Harken: Late jointime and is only a combat unit, although having basically exclusive access to the Brave Bow is nice.

Hawkeye: Useful in 23x and as filler, but otherwise doesn't really bring anything special to the table.

Canas: Requires a lot of training for highly situational use. I thought flyers being above Canas was more or less taken for granted at this point.

Do any of those really contend with like 15 chapters of flying utility? As dondon or 035804854 other people will be happy to tell you, fielding more flyers is almost never a bad thing and while Fiora's combat will never measure up to Florina's, it can still be useful. I think Fiora should move into high tier below Pent, and Guy should move down to maybe above Canas?

I can go into further specifics if needed.

[-Cynthia-]

From SDS' comments, I've gathered that Lyn Mode is going to be beaten efficiently, so it's pretty questionable if Lucius could gain any levels at all with his paper-thin durability and sluggish movement.

Same limitation applies for Erk then really, which probably means Erk would go down.

Edited January 7, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Seven Deadly Sins]

A couple things.

1: THIS IS NOT MAX EFFICIENCY CHRIST

If it was Max Efficiency the tier list would basically look like this:

Use These Guys tier:

marcus sain kent lowen isadora florina fiora farina heath vaida hector pent

Don't Use These Guys tier:

everyone else

That's boring as fuck to talk about, so no, we're not doing "max efficiency". Yes, that means there WILL be some kind of arbitrary line, but "so what".

That means that we're not excluding Geitz from the game for having a stupid recruitment requirement- by that token we might as well exclude Lucius (can't recruit him without costing a turn, as dondon and gergeshwan pointed out), Wallace (come on, are you really recruiting him with the 2 turn of FFO and his shit-tastic offense), and really, who wants that.

2: I actually FORGOT to move Guy down. I intended him to be immediately above Canas.

3: I would actually like the mages to be in the order of Lucius Erk Canas rather than the other ways around- Canas promotes easily and gets a lot of utility out of promotion, Lucius gets awesome C Staves for his troubles and his offenses are off the chain (though his defense leaves something to be desired), and Erk has the most availability and general reliability.

EDIT: Should this be done with Lucius Canas up or Erk down? I've always considered a tier gap between Erk and Lucius/Canas to be laughable in the first place anyway.

4: Maybe Fiora up a little bit, but Fiora is going to the bottom of High at best. More realistic is her at the top of Upper Middle.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Silvercrow]

Even if it's not max efficiency, flying for most of the game is still better than a handful of chapters of combat. In fact, if you're not playing max efficiency, those characters become even less useful because you have more time to train your other characters.

I still say bottom of high, but top of upper-mid is acceptable.

[Anouleth]

That means that we're not excluding Geitz from the game for having a stupid recruitment requirement- by that token we might as well exclude Lucius (can't recruit him without costing a turn, as dondon and gergeshwan pointed out), Wallace (come on, are you really recruiting him with the 2 turn of FFO and his shit-tastic offense), and really, who wants that.

Well, more to the point, I don't think that having a difficult recruitment makes Geitz a worse character. I don't think units should be penalised for what happens before their recruitment.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's not an issue of penalty. A couple people brought up removing him entirely from the tier list simply because of the difficulty required in recruiting him, which is laughable.

[grandjackal]

-Jesus On Wheels-

Marcus

-Top-

Sain

Kent

Raven

Priscilla

Lowen

Ninian/Nils

Matthew

I dunno if Raven deserves to be above the dancers, mainly because of the dancers' weird availability. That, and you and I both know he's *cough*replaceable*cough*

-Upper Middle-

Harken

Geitz

Hawkeye

Canas

Fiora

Heath

Guy

Isadora

Lucius

Dart

Dorcas

Legault

Dart below Dorcas, Dorcas at least has early uses, Dart is just a huge chunk of cash and exp dumped into him ust to get Hawkeye Lite

-Lower Middle-

Jaffar

Karel

Athos

Renault

Louise

Rebecca

I dunno why, but I feel as though Jaffar and Athos should be up a tier. And seriously, Karel>Athos?

Notable changes:

Kent > Lowen- Yes, I know you've all been pushing for this for a while, and I'm caving. Durability becomes less and less of a factor as the game goes on, but Lowen's lack of offensive prowess is quite simply unacceptable in later maps. Against mages, Lowen is more than capable of holding his own, but against physically based enemies, Lowen has issues doubling, or even killing things that he doubles. Meanwhile, Kent will never have doubling issues, have decent strength, and while his durability isn't the greatest it's still functional. He even has a fast-ish support with Sain, who has now assumed his rightful place as godmoder one step removed from Kent.

Agreed

Cavaliers Up- Again, this is a change that's a long time in the making. Cavs are going way up- Kent will be adjacent to Sain, and Lowen will be below Priscilla. Mounts are ridiculously useful in this game, and while Lowen is definitely no combat superstar, he's still legit in terms of durability and ability to ferry characters around with his mount. He kinda wanes later in the game when his combat starts being especially ineffective and you're swamped with mounts, and he still has to compete for the Knight Crest he needs to promote.

I'd personally put Isadora above Canas's current position, maybe even up a tier if we're considering handing out some stat boosts to her.

Healers Split- Remember that thing I was saying about mounts being really really good? Well, there's exactly one healer that's going to be able to keep up with those mounts throughout the entire game, and that's Priscilla. On top of that, Priscilla can ferry people and still do her job- since she shouldn't be attacking in the first place, her combat stats basically don't matter. Serra's lack of mount really hurts her here, doubly so when you consider that she's pretty much guaranteed not to get a single level out of Lyn Mode. There's always the off-hand chance that she won't even be close enough to the combat to get B Staves, which she needs to use Physic, and if she never reaches Physic level, then her movement is always going to hamper her, and her increased physic range is irrelevant.

Serra's magic on top of it isn't even that good, she'd make terrible use of Pyshic anyways. guaranteed drop for PEnt if you haven't already dropped her (haven't had much problems with just 1 healer).

Eliwood WAY down- Seriously, Eliwood is tripe. He's terrible at combat, and he's lucky if he ever reaches promotion. Even if he promotes, his only claim to fame is hauling around Oswin and Hawkeye's fat asses. I'm putting him near the top of Middle, adjacent to and just below Lyn.

Long as he's not below Bartre's fail. I'd take taxi driver to Oswin and Lord of the Asskicking over Bartre's failure any day of the week. Also, I forget, can't he wheel Hector around after promotion? If so, helping him get to the throne faster is always a plus for those seize maps (like victory or death).

Guy down- He's basically Raven who shows up slightly earlier, and gets a crit boost in exchange for no 2-range. He competes with Raven for the sole easily obtainable Hero Crest (stealing from Oleg is a pain in the ass and slows down the chapter A LOT considering how many pegs and wks are ready to rock the shit out of your soft squishy sword-locked thieves). Being sword-locked sucks a lot, and his Strength isn't too hot either. He's basically Lyn that shows up a little earlier, promotes a little sooner, but still has to deal with no 2-range (bows are better than nothing).

While I'd say it's true that trying to steal the hero crest is slow, Legault's not exactly squishy with a base 29 HP and 9 Def. 6RKO from the strongest pegasi is pretty lulzy, though the wyverns do sort of scare him.

Hawkeye Up- Easily better than Dart due to not requiring a promotion item, having AWESOME stats, and being ridiculously durable. He's damn near indestructible, and his waterwalk is indispensable in chapters like Night of Farewells. His high CON and mediocre SPE can hamper him, but a Speedwing basically sets him up to double and destroy everything. Killer Axe gives something silly like a 50% chance to Critical Hit, which spells death for anyone it hits, and so if he doubles, not only is he likely to one-round every enemy outright, but also packs around a 75% chance to ORKO any unit he doubles no matter what.

Don't forget brave axe for killing luna druids. Also, Talisman.

Isadora Up- Yeah, I said it. Isadora comes as a fairly legit attacking unit with excellent stats and a bitchin' 50% speed growth. A Body Ring and Angelic Robe is all you really need to turn her into a fighter that easily rivals Kent, especially considering Silver Sword access.

Agreed.

Florina Up (and other fliers)- Yeah, this has been a LONG time coming, ever since I argued her out of the pit of despair she was previously in. Basically every single flying unit is jumping up the list. Florina has a great claim to the Lyn Mode boosters, and makes great use of them for both combat and flight, and her flight is incredibly clutch in a number of nasty chapters. She's also going to be the first flier to promote by far given her fast-ish levelling speed and high starting level, and high starting level (7/0 is easily doable by the end of LM). Everyone else is going up too, including notably Vaida, who can take a Speedwing and become awesome.

Semi-agreed, but we know I'm not masterful with fliers.

Archers Down- Yeah, this is a long time coming. Rebecca to Lower Mid, Wil to bottom. This should be fairly obvious.

I think Louise could be given a bit of leeway if only for her support and ranks and speed and actual bases to actually be semi-useful.

Renault Up- He functions as an endgame staff user, meaning that you basically don't need to raise any staff users for the endgame. He does have a function, and can serve it fairly well, so that's that.

Perhaps he should be glued to Athos in that sense?

Also, concerning Geitz

I would be one of these people who would want Geitz completely removed. Not only is his recruitment incredibly stupid (not only do I have to get my lords to a certain level in basically a short amount of time, I have to field Dart's failing ass to go fetch him. Easier said than done when Getiz can ORKO Dart, so not only do I need to send Dart, I need to have someone go help him), that entire chapter and the repercussions of it in the future are just working against you. Linus's version of four fanged offense is stupid compared to Loyd's, because Loyd is just sort of there for you to cocksmack, while Linis is a full map away with a legion of mercs ready to choke you in the heavily narrow chokepoints the map is riddled with. And you can't just fly on over to him either. 1. Bolting Sage, 2. Hard to transport with all the wyverns and pirates on the lake, and 3. You really think a still in training Heath or your panzy pegasi are gonna take on a dude with a silver blade, a hand axe, and pretty boss stats? Why bother, when you can just laugh and 2 turn Loyd's? Then the repercussions in CoD, where we now have a Swordmaster boss with 21 Str, a Light Brand, 55 HP with 16+2 Def and 20+5 Res, and 23 AS (doubling HARKEN, and 3HKOs no less so all he has to do is land a crit, of which he has good odds with his 12+15 chances), and 80 avoid. Linus's (if I recall correctly) 19 AS is not only easier to manage, you can have a 20 AS thief steal his Iron Rune to attempt killing him faster if you think it's wrong to depend on the pegasi triangle attack.

All for what, Hawkeye with a speedwing already on and less con at the cost of quite a sizable amount of durability thrown out with lack of crit? Getiz is not making up the difference that the entire route costs you.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Amaterasu

[Colonel M]

It shouldn't be that hard to recruit Geitz. Just send some random scrub (Oswin, I don't remember this chapter well) to absorb the blows, then have Dart recruit.

The more difficult (or should I almost say nigh impossible) is to get Geitz under a max efficient style, etc. Obviously SDS has shown "no max efficiency", but I'm merely pointing it out.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Tyranel M

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Okay, a couple notes.

1: Geitz is not being taken off the tier list. That's just not an option. I am, however, putting Hawkeye above him for the time being. The durability difference is amazing between the two of them, and if Hawkeye gets a Speedwing and a couple levels, he's doubling with 60% crit rate inm a game where enemies have no Luck. Hawkeye also has ridiculous Resistance, which is absolutely indispensable for chapters like Cog of Destiny, where he can basically wander around oneshotting mages and shrugging off magic attacks like they're nothing.

2: Louise was actually not moved.

3: Oleg is still surrounded by Wyverns, since they spawn right next to him, so getting over there to steal from him is no easy feat.

4: Dart is still above Dorcas. He has much better stats, as well as actual midgame and lategame power. Remember, this is unranked, so we basically dgaf about money.

[Geriba]

I understand penalizing Eliwood relative to where he was on the list before, but he's been bumped down far too low. At a bare minimum, put the man above Lyn. He's got the one perma-viable A-support in the game with Hector, fantastic availability, and a cavalier and knight slaying Prf. weapon. His stats are comparable to Lyn's, and he gets a pony and lances on promotion instead of just bows; the superior availability and better support options are just icing on the cake compared to his lordly compadre.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Jaffar7

[eclipse]

Why is Bartre above Rath?

[Life]

Why is Bartre above Rath?

Bartre has about 4 chapters where he's usable. Rath has... 2.

[Florete]

I understand penalizing Eliwood relative to where he was on the list before, but he's been bumped down far too low. At a bare minimum, put the man above Lyn. He's got the one perma-viable A-support in the game with Hector, fantastic availability, and a cavalier and knight slaying Prf. weapon. His stats are comparable to Lyn's, and he gets a pony and lances on promotion instead of just bows; the superior availability and better support options are just icing on the cake compared to his lordly compadre.

Lyn happens to have an even faster support with Florina, actually. Since it's been stated this is not maximum efficiency, even though she's a flier you should still be able to make good use of this at the right times.

Honestly, I support Lyn > Eliwood as long as LHM is still assumed (lv 4 Lyn really is bad). Eliwood's early game is crap, his durability is hardly better, and his offense is inferior pretty much forever. Lyn also has a semi-decent shot at the LHM Energy Ring. From personal experience, I also find her quite great at annihilating the Pirates on The Port of Badon, but that may need more looking into.

[grandjackal]

Funny thing about Lyn. I was talking it over with SDS, and he was saying somethinga bout a lvl 12 Lyn walking into 16 (something I have replicated under such tight efficient play, though his came with a badass Sain). Looking at average stats for then with the Energy Ring, she's basically got HM Raven's offense, except she has the Mani Katti and forced deployment (though on the other hand, he has promotion where he gets hand axes, and is more durable...Unless you give Lyn the Angel Robe from lyn mode on top of it, but I'm sure some folks would disagree with shoving that much stuff on her).

Of course, Lyn getting both these resources is iffy, but I just figured I would start some discussion.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Amaterasu

[Mekkah]

Rath's got more than 2 chapters where he's usable. Mounted Brave Bow with a possible promotion makes him viable for lots of maps. Just not crucial enough to always get a deployment slot.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Lyn getting both resources is iffy- she's something like third or fourth best for all of them (competes with absolutely everyone except wallace rath wil for the angelic robe, and competes heavily with florina kent erk for the energy ring), and she's still got the problem of being sword-locked in a game where the endgame basically consists of fleets of Wyverns with Javelins and annoying mages. Lyn's greatest hope is to gain a bazillion levels with the Mani Katti, then hope that she can pull some form of offense later on. Her durability isn't horrendous- she's still more durable than Isadora, and has better offensive stats to boot (though no wtc hurts her), and that whole "fleets and fleets of wyverns" thing actually benefits her later when she can take a shot at doubling them with the Killer Bow for something like 35 or 36 Mt. She can even double Luna Druids with the Longbow at 3 range, and if she picks up C Florina (not hard, it's a 1 turn support), she only needs 17 Str to 2HKO them, which is reachable with the Energy Ring and level 20/9-10. B Florina lowers that to around 20/5.

Of course, this all hinges greatly on her getting access to heavily contested stat boosters in Lyn Mode. That said, Florina's ferrying isn't hurt much by losing the boosters, and Kent can function fine without the Energy Ring, so this is at least worth a shot. At the very least, I'd say this is more than anything Eliwood can do, and I still want Lyn moved to the bottom of Upper Middle rather than top of Middle.

EDIT BECAUSE I FEEL I NEED TO POINT THIS OUT:

Rath shows up at level 9 with B Bows if you get him killed in Lyn Mode. He also has increased stats over his 9/0 average if you just left him at level 7 and ported him over. It's easy for him to pick up a couple kills in Kinship's Bond and promote super fast, since it's not like he has any real competition for the Orion Bolt. He does provide accurate 2-range, and will double for most all of his career, so he's worth picking up if you *need* an archer. Then again, nobody really *needs* an archer, but nobody needs a balls slow fighter who at base is literally one of the few characters who EVER gets doubled by average scrublet enemies like Cavaliers either.

EDIT AGAIN:

Just looked at Rath's chapters- he should get a couple kills on join, especially if you send Lyn with a Killer Bow to trade him, as he doubles and 4HKOs or better easily. Living Legend has him as a 2-move unit when most non-mages are 2 anyway, and it's got some wyverns he can kill (plus him levelling makes it easier toget to Genesis if you should so choose). Crazed Beast is basically army improvement if you choose to do so, since the various forts spawn fountains of EXP for non-promoted units in the form of cannon fodder, and if your army fails to orko the cavaliers coming from Pascal's castle, ou can easily have Rath pick a bunch of them off. Altogether, he can probably promote at the end of 25 at something like 12-14, which doesn't give him altogether bad stats, and it really just gets better for him from there for the most part.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Anouleth]

Okay, a couple notes.

1: Geitz is not being taken off the tier list. That's just not an option. I am, however, putting Hawkeye above him for the time being. The durability difference is amazing between the two of them, and if Hawkeye gets a Speedwing and a couple levels, he's doubling with 60% crit rate inm a game where enemies have no Luck. Hawkeye also has ridiculous Resistance, which is absolutely indispensable for chapters like Cog of Destiny, where he can basically wander around oneshotting mages and shrugging off magic attacks like they're nothing.

There are plenty of people who can take a Speedwing. Marcus, Vaida, Hector, Heath, even Sain if he's unlucky with his level ups.

4: Dart is still above Dorcas. He has much better stats, as well as actual midgame and lategame power. Remember, this is unranked, so we basically dgaf about money.

Yeah, needing to take a fairly easy Ocean Seal is better than needing to take a difficult Hero's Crest.

I would be one of these people who would want Geitz completely removed. Not only is his recruitment incredibly stupid (not only do I have to get my lords to a certain level in basically a short amount of time, I have to field Dart's failing ass to go fetch him. Easier said than done when Getiz can ORKO Dart, so not only do I need to send Dart, I need to have someone go help him), that entire chapter and the repercussions of it in the future are just working against you. Linus's version of four fanged offense is stupid compared to Loyd's, because Loyd is just sort of there for you to cocksmack, while Linis is a full map away with a legion of mercs ready to choke you in the heavily narrow chokepoints the map is riddled with. And you can't just fly on over to him either. 1. Bolting Sage, 2. Hard to transport with all the wyverns and pirates on the lake, and 3. You really think a still in training Heath or your panzy pegasi are gonna take on a dude with a silver blade, a hand axe, and pretty boss stats? Why bother, when you can just laugh and 2 turn Loyd's? Then the repercussions in CoD, where we now have a Swordmaster boss with 21 Str, a Light Brand, 55 HP with 16+2 Def and 20+5 Res, and 23 AS (doubling HARKEN, and 3HKOs no less so all he has to do is land a crit, of which he has good odds with his 12+15 chances), and 80 avoid. Linus's (if I recall correctly) 19 AS is not only easier to manage, you can have a 20 AS thief steal his Iron Rune to attempt killing him faster if you think it's wrong to depend on the pegasi triangle attack.

Geitz exists in this game. Therefore he is on the tier list. The tier list ranks every character, regardless of how stupid their recruitment is.

[Colonel M]

Quick question, how easy is it to kill Rath in Lyn Mode? I know that without him, he's going to make Chapter 10 take a few turns (I guess that's negligible with the goal of the list), but I'm guessing you slay him in Chapter 9?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, getting him killed in Chapter 9 is the safest bet, though there's also a small squadron of troops that you can plant him by near the beginning of Chapter 10. Getting him killed shouldn't really slow down Chapter 10 since AFAIK that's done by having Florina just fly people over the gap directly south of your position while everyone else rushes to the Energy Ring village.

re: speedwing hawkeye

You get a maximum of 2 Speedwings in the game- 1 is in Kenneth's version of Pale Flower of Darkness, which is by far the better one IMO due to better treasure and a straighter shot to the boss (no wangling around with keys and shit), and the other is in Night of Farewells. The second one should probably go to Vaida to patch up her speed issue, but if you get both, Hawkeye is still a very viable candidate for the first Speedwing. Marcus and Sain are pretty weird cases, as they largely depend on "luck of the draw" as to whether or not they need it, but Hector I'm unsure about, since he gets that sick +3 speed on promotion, and by the time his level cap starts hampering his speed, he shouldn't really be fighting any more due to hitting level 20 without promotion and his lack of mount. Heath really should have no problem picking up the speed he needs- +2 speed on promo and the fact that if you Barrier him he can basically wander over to the east in Crazed Beast and munch on the scrubby horde of Monks there really helps, not to mention he's not bad in Living Legend either. Really, I'd consider Hawkeye one of the top choices for the Pale Flower of Darkness speedwing, simply because with a little luck it drops him right into that magical 14-15 speed range that characters need to be badass in the later stages of the game.

Another thing I was thinking about was Crazed Beast. IIRC, that map can technically be 3-turned and finished early if you just make a beeline for the thrones, but that's really more of a ranked tier list thing because Crazed Beast is a 0 requirement chapter. I've always viewed Crazed Beast as more of an "army improvement" chapter, because there's ridiculous amounts of enemy density combined with scrubby enemies, meaning you can easily vault an underlevelled character to promotion or better. The whole right side is basically "barrier/pure water a flyer and have him kill everything and gain like 8 levels", the left side is free EXP for anyone who can wave a sword, and the middle is just a huge pile of scrub cavaliers. Thoughts?

[dondon151]

IIRC no one 3 turns chapter 25 on ranked. Only on unranked.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Just checking, though.

[Geriba]

Lyn happens to have an even faster support with Florina, actually. Since it's been stated this is not maximum efficiency, even though she's a flier you should still be able to make good use of this at the right times.

Honestly, I support Lyn > Eliwood as long as LHM is still assumed (lv 4 Lyn really is bad). Eliwood's early game is crap, his durability is hardly better, and his offense is inferior pretty much forever. Lyn also has a semi-decent shot at the LHM Energy Ring. From personal experience, I also find her quite great at annihilating the Pirates on The Port of Badon, but that may need more looking into.

That the Florina support is technically faster means little when Eliwood and Hector have a good five chapters together more. They also have the same movement and the same team role (kill things), whereas Florina is a flier who will be ferrying people around in between offensive bouts. Assuming you get to Florina/Lyn C (or B, but that's pushing it), the support will hardly become viable anyway; even if the list isn't full-efficiency, having to cramp your flier close to a direct combat unit simply for minor support boosts is a definite problem. As far as Eliwood's early game being bad goes, I'd like to remind you that from Chapter 12 to Chapter 16, he's one of two units with a twice-effective weapon against knights and cavaliers, three once Lyn gets recruited. It's easy to look at his stats in isolation without considering his support options and Prf. weapon, even in an early-game made up primarily of lance users.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Florete]

That the Florina support is technically faster means little when Eliwood and Hector have a good five chapters together more. They also have the same movement and the same team role (kill things), whereas Florina is a flier who will be ferrying people around in between offensive bouts. Assuming you get to Florina/Lyn C (or B, but that's pushing it), the support will hardly become viable anyway; even if the list isn't full-efficiency, having to cramp your flier close to a direct combat unit simply for minor support boosts is a definite problem. As far as Eliwood's early game being bad goes, I'd like to remind you that from Chapter 12 to Chapter 16, he's one of two units with a twice-effective weapon against knights and cavaliers, three once Lyn gets recruited. It's easy to look at his stats in isolation without considering his support options and Prf. weapon, even in an early-game made up primarily of lance users.

Florina/Lyn C is one turn. B is twenty more. Florina is not doing that much flying. If she wants to stay alive in later maps, she needs combat, which Lyn can both help with and be around for most of the time. See, the thing is, Florina isn't someone like FE10 Haar who can just fly around and be badass by herself; her stats alone are pretty subpar, especially early on, so you'd want to make an effort to get the increase wherever and whenever reasonable to help her out in levels. Eliwood and Hector can easily have C by the time Florina and Lyn start building, but they won't have B much faster, and if A is viable at all Lyn and Florina will hit it first.

I wouldn't call it "minor" at all, either. You should be able to hit B in a reasonable amount of time, and that's 2 atk and 10 crit on top of 1 Def (and other useless stuff like Hit and Dodge). That's a pretty significant offensive boost when these two can often be pretty borderline on kills. If you can reach A (which I think is easy, but w/e. I did it in my ranked run by, like, chapter 25), 6 damage per round is quite a difference. 15 extra crit is also really good, especially when enemies have no Luck to eat any of it up and Lyn especially has naturally high Skl, and it can save some Mani Katti uses.

Eliwood's early game problems are less offensive than they are defensive. He wins concrete durability against, like, Rebecca, and maybe Bartre (and Serra, but who cares). But then he's also the only one without ranged options (Guy aside, but Guy easily wins durability and offense), so he pretty much always takes counters. Even Matthew could give him a run for his money due to LM leveling and better avoid. His offense isn't stellar, either. Sure, he has Rapier, but WTD is calculated before effective bonuses, so since Cavs and Knights almost always have Lances he's not even really that good against them except for finishing blows since he isn't OHKOing like Hector's Wolf Beil. And he never doubles. He's got, like, Nomads, but at least from my experience he tends to be at least 2 points short of OHKOs anyway, and just about anyone can 2HKO them.

[Anouleth]

That the Florina support is technically faster means little when Eliwood and Hector have a good five chapters together more. They also have the same movement and the same team role (kill things), whereas Florina is a flier who will be ferrying people around in between offensive bouts. Assuming you get to Florina/Lyn C (or B, but that's pushing it), the support will hardly become viable anyway; even if the list isn't full-efficiency, having to cramp your flier close to a direct combat unit simply for minor support boosts is a definite problem. As far as Eliwood's early game being bad goes, I'd like to remind you that from Chapter 12 to Chapter 16, he's one of two units with a twice-effective weapon against knights and cavaliers, three once Lyn gets recruited. It's easy to look at his stats in isolation without considering his support options and Prf. weapon, even in an early-game made up primarily of lance users.

His PRF weapon is underwhelming. There, I said it. Dorcas has 16 or 17 attack with an Iron Axe depending on how high you got him in Lyn Mode, while Eliwood has 19 attack with the Rapier against effective targets. If you factor in WTD he's not winning. And of course, Dorcas creams him in durability and offense against pretty much everything else in the game. It's not until Eliwood starts doubling enemies reliably that he's better in any way, and it raises the question of exactly how long it take to dig him out of that hole.