Final Fantasy VI Tier List

[Narga_Rocks]

Going to gaidens in Fire Emblem is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, a tradition that we all follow without question or dispute about it (unless its something stupid like HHM 19xx). Now, I don't like the way you speak of the bosses as optional. Its not just he bosses that are optional; the whole dungeon you need to slog through to get to them is optional as well. The only optional bosses I can think of that don't involve optional dungeons are Deathgaze (who I wouldn't bother wasting time with), some dragons, and the Atma/Ultima Buster in Kefka's Tower (who's only guarding a save point).

I was assuming you'd be able to guess that I was referring to the whole dungeon as part of it. There are bosses for gaiden chapters in fe, as well. And there is a map ahead of it in each one. Consider the map the dungeon, and the boss the..well...boss. I thought that part would be obvious.

[General Spoon]

I was assuming you'd be able to guess that I was referring to the whole dungeon as part of it. There are bosses for gaiden chapters in fe, as well. And there is a map ahead of it in each one. Consider the map the dungeon, and the boss the..well...boss. I thought that part would be obvious.

If you think that wasting your time completing unnecessary sidequests before you finish the game you could have finished quite some time ago is efficient, then I'm just going to stop arguing with you right now.

I noticed earlier you said "no Moogle Charm." Care to elaborate how this possibly would be efficient? Or was this your own non-serious part? as if; you're always serious

Edited January 21, 2011 by General Spoon

[Narga_Rocks]

If you think that wasting your time completing unnecessary sidequests before you finish the game you could have finished quite some time ago is efficient, then I'm just going to stop arguing with you right now.

At this point, we aren't even arguing efficiency anymore. We are arguing the similarity to FE that I pointed out earlier and you denied. Do you still deny that optional sidequests in FF are similar to optional sidequests in FE?

How are optional sidequests in one game so different from optional sidequests in another?

And if you can be efficient while participating in optional sidequests in one game, why can't you be efficient while participating in optional sidequests in another game?

You aren't being logical unless you state that both are inefficient (or neither).

I noticed earlier you said "no Moogle Charm." Care to elaborate how this possibly would be efficient? Or was this your own non-serious part as if; you're always serious?

More fighting = more AP and more levels. Same reason to not use Avoid all the time in Golden Sun. Or run from everything. If you aren't going for some kind of minimum time spent thing, why not fight more? It's not like it's a drain on resources when you have Osmose. Especially if you are going for some kind of minimum step thing while doing everything.

[General Spoon]

At this point, we aren't even arguing efficiency anymore. We are arguing the similarity to FE that I pointed out earlier and you denied. Do you still deny that optional sidequests in FF are similar to optional sidequests in FE?

How are optional sidequests in one game so different from optional sidequests in another?

And if you can be efficient while participating in optional sidequests in one game, why can't you be efficient while participating in optional sidequests in another game?

You aren't being logical unless you state that both are inefficient (or neither).

We're obviously through here. Neither of us is willing to give any ground. But I suppose if you really want us to continue this farce I can.

More fighting = more AP and more levels. Same reason to not use Avoid all the time in Golden Sun. Or run from everything. If you aren't going for some kind of minimum time spent thing, why not fight more? It's not like it's a drain on resources when you have Osmose. Especially if you are going for some kind of minimum step thing while doing everything.

Even if we aren't measuring efficiency in time we still don't need to waste our own time on random encounters. I don't feel the overwhelming urge to add hours of random encounter fights to the time I spend playing.

Edited January 21, 2011 by General Spoon

[Narga_Rocks]

We're obviously through here. Neither of us is willing to give any ground. But I suppose if you really want us to continue this farce I can.

By your lack of comment, I'll assume you are admitting to acting illogically earlier.

Anyway, what is even the purpose of playing to you? Why do you not want to add a couple of hours to your playthrough of a game? Going away from the efficiency stuff, it seems like playing ff6 must be torture to you if you feel this urge to barrel through as quickly as possible while doing the minimum possible while still beating.

Do you run from every single battle along the way even in the wob? If so, fine, at least you are being consistent. If not, why are you moogle charming everywhere you can in the wor but not minimizing your time spent in battle elsewhere?

Anyway, the idea behind not moogle charming is, like I said, to boost AP and levels. Normally I just moogle charm since I boost those things on the maranda desert then later with the dinosaurs. But if I was going to keep my steps to a minimum? Why not get as much exp as possible?

Consider chapter 17x in HHM. Florina ends that chapter in 4 turns. Do you

a) minimize the amount of fighting you do because you don't want to waste time with the combat screens

b) maximize the amount of exp you gain in those 4 turns

Similar principle for not using the moogle charm every opportunity if you aren't planning on grinding for exp and ap later on.

[General Spoon]

By your lack of comment, I'll assume you are admitting to acting illogically earlier.

Anyway, what is even the purpose of playing to you? Why do you not want to add a couple of hours to your playthrough of a game? Going away from the efficiency stuff, it seems like playing ff6 must be torture to you if you feel this urge to barrel through as quickly as possible while doing the minimum possible while still beating.

Do you run from every single battle along the way even in the wob? If so, fine, at least you are being consistent. If not, why are you moogle charming everywhere you can in the wor but not minimizing your time spent in battle elsewhere?

Anyway, the idea behind not moogle charming is, like I said, to boost AP and levels. Normally I just moogle charm since I boost those things on the maranda desert then later with the dinosaurs. But if I was going to keep my steps to a minimum? Why not get as much exp as possible?

Consider chapter 17x in HHM. Florina ends that chapter in 4 turns. Do you

a) minimize the amount of fighting you do because you don't want to waste time with the combat screens

b) maximize the amount of exp you gain in those 4 turns

Similar principle for not using the moogle charm every opportunity if you aren't planning on grinding for exp and ap later on.

Apparently I haven't been clear enough in stating that I think we should use time as a measure of efficiency. I think that time should be the measure of efficiency. Running from encounters saves time. Therefore I think that running from encounters is efficient.

Your analogy to 17x HHM fails because a different criteria (turns) is being used to measure efficiency. Time is irrelevant in that case.

Edited January 21, 2011 by General Spoon

[Narga_Rocks]

Apparently I haven't been clear enough in stating that I think we should use time as a measure of efficiency. I think that time should be the measure of efficiency. Running from encounters saves time. Therefore I think that running from encounters is efficient.

Have I not been clear that I reject your measure?

You even said "Even if we aren't measuring efficiency in time". Somehow your desire to measure by time is so powerful that it has given you an inability to even participate in hypothetical discussions properly, since you are completely incapable of separating yourself from that notion long enough to talk about measuring without it. Wow.

Your analogy to 17x HHM fails because a different criteria (turns) is being used to measure efficiency. Time is irrelevant in that case.

And time is irrelevant when

we aren't measuring efficiency in time

Your point?

If we are using steps to measure efficiency, while going through all the dungeons and beating all the bosses and getting the coolest items, why NOT fight everything possible? Using steps is similar to using turns. So fight as much as possible while meeting the steps guideline. Just like you fight as much as possible while meeting the turns guideline.

Arguing with you is apparently a waste of time since you can't even keep your brain on track long enough to argue under a principle that you yourself acknowledged I was talking about.

[General Spoon]

Have I not been clear that I reject your measure?

You even said "Even if we aren't measuring efficiency in time". Somehow your desire to measure by time is so powerful that it has given you an inability to even participate in hypothetical discussions properly, since you are completely incapable of separating yourself from that notion long enough to talk about measuring without it. Wow.

And time is irrelevant when Your point?

If we are using steps to measure efficiency, while going through all the dungeons and beating all the bosses and getting the coolest items, why NOT fight everything possible? Using steps is similar to using turns. So fight as much as possible while meeting the steps guideline. Just like you fight as much as possible while meeting the turns guideline.

Arguing with you is apparently a waste of time since you can't even keep your brain on track long enough to argue under a principle that you yourself acknowledged I was talking about.

My major problem with your method is that you seem to want to make a checklist of things that you pick and choose, no matter how superfluous (like stealing Ragnarok).

[Narga_Rocks]

My major problem with your method is that you seem to want to make a checklist of things that you pick and choose, no matter how superfluous (like stealing Ragnarok).

No, the ragnarok bit is my own playing where I try to get all the items. Stealing Ragnarok in the final battle is mostly pointless. Kefka has a lot of unblockable attacks so even if you did want to boost evade and mblock on a character that can't get Illumina (if you even allow us to get that) it wouldn't make a huge difference.

As for picking and choosing, maybe my saying to get all the "coolest" items qualifies as picking and choosing, but asking to go through optional dungeons to get all the characters and bosses hardly seems like "pick and choose". It's what we do in FE, after all. All the maps. All the characters. Technically, I suppose we don't need to kill all the bosses in situations like chapter 11 in fe9 where you can arrive without KOing the boss (though with a full team you might end up doing that anyway). You could skip things like the dragons in ff6, but really what's the point?

[General Spoon]

No, the ragnarok bit is my own playing where I try to get all the items. Stealing Ragnarok in the final battle is mostly pointless. Kefka has a lot of unblockable attacks so even if you did want to boost evade and mblock on a character that can't get Illumina (if you even allow us to get that) it wouldn't make a huge difference.

As for picking and choosing, maybe my saying to get all the "coolest" items qualifies as picking and choosing, but asking to go through optional dungeons to get all the characters and bosses hardly seems like "pick and choose". It's what we do in FE, after all. All the maps. All the characters. Technically, I suppose we don't need to kill all the bosses in situations like chapter 11 in fe9 where you can arrive without KOing the boss (though with a full team you might end up doing that anyway). You could skip things like the dragons in ff6, but really what's the point?

Okay, so let's say that we do whatever you say we need to do. How then do we measure efficiency within your rules? My answer is time. Because some routes ARE quicker than others. For example, picking up Mog and the Moogle Charm before climbing the Cultist's Tower is faster than waiting until after the Cultists Tower to pick up Mog and the Moogle Charm for obvious reasons.

So we would keep hammering out the route to complete the proposed criteria until we get the fastest time (or lowest steps if that's the way you want it), and then see what characters other than Gau get shafted.

[Narga_Rocks]

You've already given the other option. Steps. You can fight every battle along the way without the Moogle Charm and still measure efficiency by way of steps. Though it does bring up the issue of which items are worth taking steps for, since the game is apparently doable with taking no extra steps at all.

Besides, you have bogged down this thread in arguments about how to rank so much that everyone else seems to have lost interest, so it hardly matters anymore.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[Life]

To be honest, the best way to measure efficiency would be steps. That's if you ask me (since I'm the resident steps expert).

That means Setzer rises. By quite a bit. Since the Fixed Dice don't cost extra steps and guess what? We gotta recruit Setzer.

[Don Draper]

.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[General Spoon]

I'm not sure if I agree with fewest steps, just because its a very particular one dimensional way of playing the game. I think we should just rank it like we do the Pokemon tier list. Which means

-Chests are okay, but no grinding. Just get from point A to B while picking up necessary items along the way

-Unlimited time spent in towns. Liberal use of the Coliseum. Going to the Veldt is acceptable three times during WOB (including the mandatory visit) and three times during WOR. Only one cycle of packs allowed per visit.

-All characters in WOR are recruited. I'm still unsure if we're going to include Tower of Fanatics, Ancient Castle, etc but probably not.

Those are the criteria I'm going to be using and I'll add them to the first page. At this point efficiency definition arguments have outnumbered character numbers and thats not what I wanted.

So long as nobody tries to make us go on a scavenger hunt in every dungeon we do and don't go to, I have no objections.

[Life]

Sabin > Edgar.

If Chainsaw and Drill don't exist, Aura Cannon is the best ST damage we have for a long time in the WoB.

[Rodykitty]

I'm not sure if I agree with fewest steps, just because its a very particular one dimensional way of playing the game. I think we should just rank it like we do the Pokemon tier list. Which means

-Chests are okay, but no grinding. Just get from point A to B while picking up necessary items along the way

-Unlimited time spent in towns. Liberal use of the Coliseum. Going to the Veldt is acceptable three times during WOB (including the mandatory visit) and three times during WOR. Only one cycle of packs allowed per visit.

-All characters in WOR are recruited. I'm still unsure if we're going to include Tower of Fanatics, Ancient Castle, etc but probably not.

Those are the criteria I'm going to be using and I'll add them to the first page. At this point efficiency definition arguments have outnumbered character numbers and thats not what I wanted.

I agree with this as well. Having an actual tier list is top priority.

Since you are allowing trips to the Veldt, Gau will definitely rise as you should be able to get at least Stray Cat.

[Life]

I kinda want to tackle the issue of Strago. And Grand Delta/Quasar.

Anyone want to join me here?

[Life]

Well, this hasn't been touched in about... 6 months. Time for another run of FFVI.

Locke > Gogo. The fact of the matter is that Locke has been around from when God created the earth while Gogo magically appears more than halfway through the game and is nothing more than an inferior carbon copy of everybody. Locke might be on the lower end of the shit scale during the time he was around and Gogo didn't exist but he's as good if not better than Celes/Terra until the Cave to the Sealed Gate and can still hold his own until the end of the Floating Continent simply from stealing and backrow Boomerang throwing.

In the WoR, Gogo probably joins a lot earlier than Locke simply for stealing utility (since Phoenix Cave wants 2 parties) but he's not really doing that much. I mean, he might be doing some stealing before we get Locke back but that's the only niche he has. He can pull out Tool but he's a vastly inferior Edgar who's stopped relying on Tools at this point. He can use Blitz but his Magic is genuinely shit. Throw is an inferior Shadow. Magic makes him an inferior Relm/Terra/Celes even with more spell access than them. Lore is an inferior Strago. None of these jobs will give him a slot after Locke rejoins. And his armour/weapon situation is shit while Locke can pull out the Master Scroll and the Valiant Knife for epic damage.

Locke's good WoB + decent WoR > Gogo's decent WoR.

[Bearissoslow]

so I'm still playing through FFVI (just got Edgar in WOR), and I'd just add my .02 as of now:

- Locke should be below Gau and nowhere lower. you're using him for a majority of WOB, giving him time to get some good skills from Espers (like Haste and Break). that and thief's knife is just nice because he ends up stealing a lot with it, and while stealing isn't terribly game changing, it does give you either shit like Tents and Hi Potions or armor that you can sell. it's far better than whatever the fuck Setzer's doing for you, considering he pretty much gets half of the time Locke does in WOB.

- Shadow should be lower. i have no idea where, but I'd guess probably below Locke. nigga gets next to no time in WOB (Sabin's Scenario and the brief time before you get Strago). he's a good damage dealer when you have him, but it's sort of like the availability issues you get with FE games. if you have a good character that you barely get to utilize, what's the point of him being good? granted, maybe he becomes g0d m0d3 in WOR or some shit, but so far I'd say he barely gets any time to be worthy of anything significant. only reason I'd put him above Relm/Strago is that he's useful for Sabin's Scenario and you barely get the other two until WOR.

- Never used Mog, but I'd still make the argument that Sabin should be above him for availability arguments + Sabin is just fucking good. i skimmed this thread and heard about water dance or whatever the fuck, but eh. Sabin will be dealing consistent damage to anything without having to worry about typing, and from what I read the dances aren't even guaranteed. sounds like a pain if you ask me.

oh god spacing

Edited October 21, 2011 by Bearissoslow

[grandjackal]

Rough criteria:

-Chests are okay, but no grinding. Just get from point A to B while picking up necessary items along the way

-Unlimited time spent in towns. Liberal use of the Coliseum. Going to the Veldt is acceptable three times during WOB (including the mandatory visit) and three times during WOR. Only one cycle of packs allowed per visit.

-All characters in WOR are recruited. I'm still unsure if we're going to include Tower of Fanatics, Ancient Castle, etc but probably not.

Top

Edgar

Terra

Celis

High

Mog

Sabin

Shadow

Mid

Gau

Setzer

Gogo

Locke

Relm

Low

Strago

Cyan

Bottom

Umaro

Sorry for hte incoming tl;dr...

I just did an FF6 run, and I would just like to throw my hat into the ring. First problem I have is Cyan being below Locke. I believe the problem people tend to have with Cyan is how his Sword Tech works. I believe it's something about him taking time to charge his stuff up while others wait. Well, why not make the logical choice and simply have him act last? Animations and ATB gauge charging aren't instant. By the time others are recovering from their attacks (or the enemy WHILE it's attacking), he'll have charged up whatever you planned for him and he'll have essentially interrupted no one. Dispatch at first is a very basic hard hitting attack of which that alone should have him over Locke. Quadra Slam is also great for WoB for when he gets it. Also, if one chooses do his stupidly quick side quest at Doma, Quadra Slice is hte closest you're gonna get to great single-target damage outside of anything stupendously ridiculous. That's pretty much my argument for him rising. He can do stuff Locke and Realm can't really do: Kill things. Also, Force Armor.

I'll get to Gau in a minute, but first: WoR thoughts.

-If we're recruiting characters first, we get Mog first, plain and simple.

-How does one feel about getting Locke second? Lets you get one of the Ragnaroks (possibility of Ultima never hurts), Mog with the charm alone can handle half the task needed to actually get through the dungeon, and the Phoenix Cave has some awesome stuff. Also if you can manage to get Life 3 before we tackle Kefka's Tower, one can realistically tackle the Mage Master at Fanatic's Tower if that is allowable. Jewel Box...

-...Or do we get Terra first for mad boss-slaying skillz, and replacing that fraud named Celice with a character that can do her job and more, especially once we get past enemies that use conventional magic to do magic damage?

-Dragonslaying, thoughts? It's not necessary and out of the way, but what if dragons are just simply in the hood? Like the Fire Dragon in Phoenix Cave is on the way to a pretty sweet piece of equipment (Dragon Horn I believe), and he just HAPPENS to be there...What about a situation like that? In contrast, I doubt anyone's gonna bother with something silly like going to the Opera House just for the Magus Rod.

-What if there s no trouble with some sidequests? Fanatics Tower for instance with Mog is a no-brainer with AWESOME stuff in it (among them the Pearl Lance, I'll explain that when I get to characters), and it's basically the most straightforward dungeon in the existence of mankind? I'd TRY to stretch with Hidon, but....I'll get to that I guess.

Now as for characters...

Sabin: How is this dude not the top of the list? Magic boosting Esper, double Earrings, Aura Bolt and soon Fire Dance basically make him the "I kill everything" of WoB. This does not stop in WoR either when he can just bisit Duncan for BumRush, and possibly get Wind Slash as well. There's basically nothing he can't do aside from healing, and he does it straight for free. Bosskilling, crowd control, high HP, what more do you want? It's not like you need Ultima to end-all be-all nuke everything, and Mog can't be with you in every situation. Even if Mog was, Sabin's hardly a bad choice to have on your team for bosses.

Edgar: He should definitely be right below Sabin though, because Tools are ridiculous. Early he's got his Auto-Crossbow. But then he gets fun tools. No, not Drill and Chainsaw, stuff like Noiseblaster and Flash. Flash+Fire Dance tends to kill full swarms of enemies in WoB, and in WoR, you basically keep your team from getting serious damage at the mere push of a button with Noiseblaster being 100% accurate full-nuke Confusion. Drill's basically his "safe" boss damage, and the Chainsaw is meant for those scary threats like GrBehemoths. Basically he doesn't super-kill stuff like Sabin, but his utility for your team behind hte scenes is immeasurable. Only thing he's really not good at is being good at endgame bosses...Oh wait, Debilitator...Though I only say that under dishy circumstances. You can basically force a weakness for Terra to exploit, or even more fun (if you take the option), emitting a Pearl weankness for DragoonBoots+DragonHorn+Pearl Lance Mog to occasionally outdo Bum Rush in damage (since Dragon Horn can make a possible 4th strike, and you can still proxy the Pearl spell to come off after a Jump). Only thing I wouldn't really do with him is bring him into the final fight.

Terra: Yeah, that looks accurate.

Celis: Can we say too much credit? Runic is nice in choice boss fights, but to say she's equal to Terra at all is pretty funny. Where is she getting her credit to deserve top tier, Runic for WoB fights? Cause she's basically Terra without the bosskilling, a very noticeable difference. I frankly don't even see what's so special about her other than WoR availability. I won't accept "Armor Choice" as an answer.

Mog: Ayyyup. Especially if we're getting Dragon Horn and Pearl Lance.

Shadow: PFFFFF-no, he's not THAT good. Not until you get stuff like throwing stars to get ACTUAL damage off. Also, Stunner's a hell of a weapon. That gives him some use in a normal fight (Stopping Great Behemoths), while still doing decent damage in single boss fights with throwing stars. But otherwise he's not really GREAT, he's just good enough at all times. He's straight mid.

Gau: He has no business being that high, because grinding his rages out is entirely unecessary. Hell, if we're getting all characters before Kefka's Tower, even though he's the easiest to just pick up, he's not gonna slip onto your team over dudes like Setzer/Sabin/Edgar/Celice. Outside of sheer luck of running into Templar for Fire 2 or some silly shit before I reach his cave to get on the river, I will not accept Gau being that higher up than Umaro (though him existing is still better than Umaro. Umaro is just that bad). Even if you get everyone, you do not have enough room on all 3 teams to it everyone you recruited. Name me a good reason to fit Gau onto any team...Ever.

Setzer: I dunno. He's basically as gimmicky as you can get. Though you can get serious reward off him, I find him too luck dependent. At least his reward can actually lead to something dying. Loaded Dice can mae one sad, but it can put a smile on one's face as well. 'Dem 666es...

Gogo: Blitz/Tools/Filler is so good...Even if you do get him late, and isn't as powerful a Blitzer.

Locke: Below Realm. "NANDA!?" you ask? Simple. Tell me what he does. Ass damage, an unimportant skill that gets you generally nothing, bad stats, bad equipment choices. Outside of getting POSSIBLY getting Ultima on ONE person, I would actually take the insta-gimmick of Control over Locke being generally bad all over. I'll get to her in a sec though, cause I don't think Realm is good anyways outside of Kefka Tower, but I'd take that over being bad everywhere else.

Realm: She sucks, but Fake Moustache. Kefka Tower, it simply denies a threat entirely. Hell, got a Mad Oscar? She can end the fight for you without much effort. Gr Behemoths giving you trouble? Controlled, now you have free Mertron on the enemy. How about most of the mech enemies in the factory portion? The ones with the annoying nukes? Your team can't entirely be of magic evading badasses. Might as well control one to make nuking the enemy all the easier. That's...all she has. I would still take that over Locke stealing Tonics to save MP from spending on Cure early on. Though again, I suppose depends on if getting Locke first and seeing if we can get Ultima in any relevant amount of time can make up for it.

Strago: If we're agreeing we're going through this quick, I think we're underestimating the fact he's one of the few people who has a nuke basically for free, and IF...IF we go get Grand Train, it's the best nuke outside of Ultima (which in the time we got, chances are only 1 person is gonna have it, and that 1 person can't be on all teams), and generally matches any of Sabin's nukes. It costs MP, but Osmose is a pretty easy skill to nab off Shiva, especially since he has time where he's forced in the WoB anyways. Again though, that depends on if we're going to get Grand Train. If not, then yeah, he can stay where he is.

Cyan: I basically already explained why I feel his positioning is more a misuse on how to actually utilize his skill rather than him actually sucking. Armor choice, high HP, can use Gauntlet to boost stuff like Quadra Slice, Quadra Slam, Dispatch, what have you. Rare you have someone who wants +Str Espers and can put them to good use, why not him? Not saying he's actually great, but I'd put him above some other useless craps I see on this list.

Umaro: No one is Umaro bad.

Basically, here's how I see the list.

Top

Sabin

Edgar

High

Terra

Mog (Regardless of if we get Pearl Lance/Dragon Horn or not cause of all the swag he gets us for free.)

Mid

Celice

Cyan (If we go to Doma)

Shadow

Gogo

Strago (If we get Grand Train)

Low

Setzer

Cyan (If we don't)

Strago (If we don't)

Realm

Locke

Bottom

Gau

Umaro

Edited October 21, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Bearissoslow]

Locke is doing ass damage

lolwut? When you have Assassin's Dagger, damage becomes irrelevant.

[grandjackal]

lolwut? When you have Assassin's Dagger, damage becomes irrelevant.

It does when there are things that are immune to death/absorb it like Mad Oscars, again something Realm can Control to Sneeze out a Gr Behemoth without as much as a response from the big thing. Anything the Assassin's Dagger could be used to auto-kill something would most likely be things that die to simple means anyways.

Death effect is not that great in this game unless it's a banishing effect. The weapon you mention is not actually that good, especially in the WoR where the undead seem to roam freely (not that it would matter, thank you Mog). But if you want me to clear up my statement, fine. He does inconsistant damage, and only to very specific enemies that could be dealt with by any other means one could think of without needing a specific weapon, and said options could probably do more than just target a single enemy, and is dick useless in a boss fight which more often than not are the fights that are going to matter the most.

Edited October 21, 2011 by grandjackal

[Ϲharlie]

FYI, the Assassin dagger's effect only activates 25% of the time, and even then there's a chance that it could be blocked by the target's stamina. That's not exactly what I'd call a reliable weapon. :\

There's a few other things I'd like to address (particularly the stuff about Cyan), but I just don't have the patience right now.

[Scarlet]

Wait, wait, wait. When you're talking about Relm, you're only talking about Sketch/Control. Did her base stats suddenly cease to exist? I mean, she has a pretty epic magic base, and is probably the best mage in the game in terms of raw stats. In practice, the other girls will be better magic users simply because of a level lead with magic-raising espers, as well as the fact that Relm starts out not knowing any magic - but magic can be taught. Bio in particular is taught really quickly, yet still deals 2nd tier damage. Relm is a pretty decent attacker and healer even with lower-tier spells; she just won't have as much flexibility as the others recruited before her. Even so, there's no real point in having all the crappy 1st tier spells, so the only thing she'll really be missing out on is stuff like Haste or Protect, and even most of that can be taught pretty quickly with some of the later espers if you really care to.

Now, I'm not saying she's Top Tier by any means, but you're really giving her much less credit than she deserves.

[grandjackal]

Wait, wait, wait. When you're talking about Relm, you're only talking about Sketch/Control. Did her base stats suddenly cease to exist? I mean, she has a pretty epic magic base, and is probably the best mage in the game in terms of raw stats. In practice, the other girls will be better magic users simply because of a level lead with magic-raising espers, as well as the fact that Relm starts out not knowing any magic - but magic can be taught. Bio in particular is taught really quickly, yet still deals 2nd tier damage. Relm is a pretty decent attacker and healer even with lower-tier spells; she just won't have as much flexibility as the others recruited before her. Even so, there's no real point in having all the crappy 1st tier spells, so the only thing she'll really be missing out on is stuff like Haste or Protect, and even most of that can be taught pretty quickly with some of the later espers if you really care to.

Now, I'm not saying she's Top Tier by any means, but you're really giving her much less credit than she deserves.

WoB-Not enough time.

WoR-Chances are you're not exactly rushing to her rescue.

There would be issue 1 with her actually ever learning spells. Issue 2 is that she does a LITTLE more than your typical mage IF they haven't been boosting up their magic stat. Issue 3: Why do her other stats have to matter when she has instant utility with Control in Kefka's Tower? I could care less if she ever learns any magic (chances are I'd teach her healing magic before I taught her any offense spells), not when you can do stuff like Sneeze Great Behemoths out of a fight, or control said Behemoth and Mertron the hell out of the enemy, or one of those robotic enemies with nukes in the factory portions of the tower? Why learn things when the enemies are doing all the work for you (outside of a boss fight of course, where I believe she can just break magic rods anyways)?