Final Fantasy VI Tier List

[Bluedoom]

Sabin should be at the top of the list, simply because of availability and kickass damage. Oh, and with that high availability, he's the one most likely to have awesome healing and supportive spells which have better effects and use than on some people like.. Edgar.

I don't find Edgar that awesome, and Mog seems better than him if we compare contributions, but Edgar wins over Mog when it comes to availability.

Oh, and I'm a Sabin fan, so yeah( still feel bad the conditions make Gau seemingly useless.)

[Bearissoslow]

Relm's problem with magic is that she never gets enough time to learn anything worthwhile in WOB because there's a stipulation against grinding. By the time you get her, she's only going to be available for Floating Continent. Enemies there give a good amount of points, but considering that the enemies are tough and you're only bringing three people in the first place, you'll likely want someone who can do things and isn't in the process of being babied into usability. you'd be far better off going with any variation Terra/Celes/Sabin/Edgar purely because they'll be useful and you can finish off some esper skills for them while still having a base to work with. for relm, it's all uphill.

as for the assassin's dagger problem, I don't see how having a weapon that can cause instant death is a bad thing. really, your best refute for that is that it's not causing instant death to everything? it's still a plus for locke, any way you cut it. as for the damage output with bosses, lolmagic. he's not doing the most magic damage, but it's really negligible considering he has some of the best availability in WOB for building skills, meaning he'll at least be able to do something helpful, whether it's casting Fira for some amount of damage or using an esper itself. this isn't even getting into the fact that if you really hate his damage output, you could just make him support with haste/cura/slow/etc., giving your main damage dealers less turns to waste buffing and supporting and more time to go offensive. Locke's not superb ultra awesome at damage output, but he's still doing a good enough amount with magic and it's not like every character needs to have amazing offensive output to be useful in the first place.

Sabin should still be below Edgar. Edgar's providing a utility early on with Crossbow that Sabin can't match for a while, and Edgar is just more useful for clearing out random encounters (Crossbow/Flash + Chainsaw + Bioblaster + that confuse casting thing), and his boss damage with Drill is something Sabin never gets a chance to match either.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Bearissoslow

[grandjackal]

Relm's problem with magic is that she never gets enough time to learn anything worthwhile in WOB because there's a stipulation against grinding. By the time you get her, she's only going to be available for Floating Continent. Enemies there give a good amount of points, but considering that the enemies are tough and you're only bringing three people in the first place, you'll likely want someone who can do things and isn't in the process of being babied into usability. you'd be far better off going with any variation Terra/Celes/Sabin/Edgar purely because they'll be useful and you can finish off some esper skills for them while still having a base to work with. for relm, it's all uphill.

*Reading newspaper, drinking soda* ...Oh, you're actually countering my argument with this? Cause...This is entirely irrelevent. Not once have I said that Realm has any use in the WoB or the Floating Continent. In fact, my only real argument I'm presenting here is Fake Moustache presents instant utility in Kefka's Tower that has a really powerful effect in a random encounter, despite the fact that you could have entirely not used her at all up until this point, and that utility alone is better than Locke earlygame stealing you Tonics.

as for the assassin's dagger problem, I don't see how having a weapon that can cause instant death is a bad thing. really, your best refute for that is that it's not causing instant death to everything? it's still a plus for locke, any way you cut it

Ya know, granted it only works 25% of the time if we just ignore enemy Stamina, or if they absorb death, or are immune to it anyways which by the time you get it a lot of enemies are the latter two. In fact, if we consider the fact some enemies are basically fully recovered by the "death effect" it has by the time he has it, it is actually doing more harm than good. There's a reason I said we're giving Shadow the Stunner instead of this piece of shit.

. as for the damage output with bosses, lolmagic. he's not doing the most magic damage, but it's really negligible considering he has some of the best availability in WOB for building skills, meaning he'll at least be able to do something helpful, whether it's casting Fira for some amount of damage or using an esper itself. this isn't even getting into the fact that if you really hate his damage output, you could just make him support with haste/cura/slow/etc., giving your main damage dealers less turns to waste buffing and supporting and more time to go offensive. Locke's not superb ultra awesome at damage output, but he's still doing a good enough amount with magic and it's not like every character needs to have amazing offensive output to be useful in the first place.

Someone forgets Starlet, and how quick it teaches any character "support", and she in her trip along hte High AP Gain Kefka tower can get your healing abilities up almost instantly. So in a bossfight she can be a supporter too with healing. This is staced on top of her naturally good magic. This actually helps my team in an actual way rather than using Locke to cast lolFira with his stupidly awful magic stat.

I'd also lie to state for hte record that due to the length of attack animations by Kefka's Tower for just about everything that Haste is essentially useless, as by the time most animations end your ATB gauge is charged up anyways...Also, what the fuck are you Slowing? I also don't really care about him healing in the WoB, because I would find it funny that you would come close to dying in the WoB thanks to Sabin/Edgar being the uber-nuke.You can easily do your healing outside of battle with...Just about anyone. Locke just happening to exist in that time period doesn't mean it has to be him. Hell, use items even. It's not like enemies are straight murdering you so bad you need actual magic to heal.

Sabin should still be below Edgar. Edgar's providing a utility early on with Crossbow that Sabin can't match for a while, and Edgar is just more useful for clearing out random encounters (Crossbow/Flash + Chainsaw + Bioblaster + that confuse casting thing), and his boss damage with Drill is something Sabin never gets a chance to match either.

I will grant Crossbow's usefulness until Sabin gets Fire Dance, which pointhe's helping with hte Sabin/Edgar Uber Nuke, and that Noiseblaster has it's uses later when Edgar's tools aren't strong enough to do enough to enemies to be relevent. But...Drill better than double Earring Aura Bolt at bosskilling? Then what if considering he has a ton of availability to gain +Mag for stuff like Fire Dance, Wind Slash, Aura Bolt, and soon to come Bum Rush, he cements himself on top for hte following reasons over Edgar.

1. Sabin needs no help in bosskilling, and easily your best in doing so. Best Edgar can do is Drill early for some nice extra damage (since Drill does not compare in boss killing to Sabin or Terra or even Cyan if you use him correctly), and Debilitator as pure support. Basically Sabin is almighty withno strings attached. Edgarhas a problem here and there.

2. Sabin over time will slowly not even need Edgar's help to nuke things with stuff like Fire Dance or Wind Slash, and if he still does, My Genji-Enhancer mages can fill in the gap for Edgar with most likely greater damage.

3. Notice how both of these things are the category of "I kill shit really quick while you don't", thus speeding up the process of an actual fight while Edgar can only support the endeavor? Sabin in the end is doing hte most heavy lifting. Edgar helps him for a period of time with Flash and Noiseblaster, but in the end it's Sabin that's doing the actual work.

[Scarlet]

Relm's problem with magic is that she never gets enough time to learn anything worthwhile in WOB because there's a stipulation against grinding.

Oh yeah, about that. I think it's a bit hypocritical to allow Gau some unnecessary time on the Veldt to get his rages, but to not allow other characters similar amounts of grinding (because hanging around the Veldt longer than necessary is just that - grinding) in order to do stuff like learn some spells.

But those are just my two cents.

[grandjackal]

Uhhh, guys? When did we suddenly drag this into a discussion about grinding? Cause I am saying Realm does not need grinding for Kefka's Tower, just Fake Moustache. You could have not touched her the entire game until the Tower, she'd still be useful there with Fake Moustache.

[Scarlet]

Yes, I'm aware of that and acknowledging it.

I just feel that because of her magic stat, Relm's usefulness is not limited to only this.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Shade of Shadow

[Life]

I just did an FF6 run, and I would just like to throw my hat into the ring. First problem I have is Cyan being below Locke. I believe the problem people tend to have with Cyan is how his Sword Tech works. I believe it's something about him taking time to charge his stuff up while others wait. Well, why not make the logical choice and simply have him act last? Animations and ATB gauge charging aren't instant. By the time others are recovering from their attacks (or the enemy WHILE it's attacking), he'll have charged up whatever you planned for him and he'll have essentially interrupted no one. Dispatch at first is a very basic hard hitting attack of which that alone should have him over Locke. Quadra Slam is also great for WoB for when he gets it. Also, if one chooses do his stupidly quick side quest at Doma, Quadra Slice is hte closest you're gonna get to great single-target damage outside of anything stupendously ridiculous. That's pretty much my argument for him rising. He can do stuff Locke and Realm can't really do: Kill things. Also, Force Armor.

Not happening.

Let's look at the WoB first, specifically with regard to Cayane. Cyan is ass, even when he gets recruited. Sure, he can ignore defense with Fang. So? Sky and Tiger are quite terrible. Sky kills the chance of doing reliable damage since it's trigger only while Tiger is a very inferior Gravity. We get Gravity almost immediately after leaving the IMRF and before that, not much is susceptible to ID AND hard to kill. Seriously. The entirety of the Phantom Forest/Train are undead, Veldt doesn't really count and I guarantee that Cyan isn't fighting the Hell's Rider (Tiger does work there though since it does do 650 when used first). That leaves him with Zozo and the IMRF. It's important to note that Locke gets a free slot in the IMRF but Cyan is competing against... well, Edgar, Sabin and Gau. Locke can even go to Zozo since he doubles as a healer (well, he steals a Potion/Hi Potion every turn).

So what are we left with until Cyan gets Flurry? Essentially Fang, which breaks through defense (something Locke wishes he could do) and very situational use for Tiger. That's it. What does Locke have? Steal command, Thief Bracer, Brigand's Glove and the Moonring Blade. In addition, Locke has slightly higher Magic and gets Ramuh pretty early into the IMRF so that he can do, you know, damage. But once he does get Judgment Bolt, he's hitting weaknesses due to the entire IMRF being weak to Lightning. Cyan has nothing on that.

Afterwards, the comparison is a joke. Locke gets another free slot in Thamasa so to keep up with Esper time, Cyan needs to get into the Sealed Gate party. He can use dual Kazikiris at this point but... well, Gau stopped using Wind Slash ages ago and Cyan's damage with them is piss-poor. He can't OHKO the Outcasts (1100 HP? Yeah, you wish.) since Fang stopped doing good damage years ago, Flurry can't target (neither can Fang but Flurry's situation is worse) and he can't equip the Gaia Gear to deal with Lifeshaver, the most evil attack to ever exist.

GJ 2:11 pm

and why should i care about Gaia Gear?

when i got Force Armor?

Because the Force Armour doesn't show up until the WoR. We're still in the heart of the WoB. And Cyan is one of the few people who is NOT immune to the Outcasts' Lifeshaver. This alone bars Cyan from going into the Sealed Cave. Technically, this would also ban Edgar but Edgar can confuse the Outcasts with his Noiseblaster so he gets a pass.

As for the Floating Continent, it really comes down to what kind of party you want. You have 11 choices for 3 slots. If neither gets a shot, then so be it.

If you want to argue the WoR, go ahead. But let it be known that Cyan cannot do anything there that makes up for the absolute suck he brings to the party in the first half of the game. And to counteract what Locke has done so far.

I'll get to Gau in a minute, but first: WoR thoughts.

Sabin: How is this dude not the top of the list? Magic boosting Esper, double Earrings, Aura Bolt and soon Fire Dance basically make him the "I kill everything" of WoB. This does not stop in WoR either when he can just bisit Duncan for BumRush, and possibly get Wind Slash as well. There's basically nothing he can't do aside from healing, and he does it straight for free. Bosskilling, crowd control, high HP, what more do you want? It's not like you need Ultima to end-all be-all nuke everything, and Mog can't be with you in every situation. Even if Mog was, Sabin's hardly a bad choice to have on your team for bosses.

Edgar: He should definitely be right below Sabin though, because Tools are ridiculous. Early he's got his Auto-Crossbow. But then he gets fun tools. No, not Drill and Chainsaw, stuff like Noiseblaster and Flash. Flash+Fire Dance tends to kill full swarms of enemies in WoB, and in WoR, you basically keep your team from getting serious damage at the mere push of a button with Noiseblaster being 100% accurate full-nuke Confusion. Drill's basically his "safe" boss damage, and the Chainsaw is meant for those scary threats like GrBehemoths. Basically he doesn't super-kill stuff like Sabin, but his utility for your team behind hte scenes is immeasurable. Only thing he's really not good at is being good at endgame bosses...Oh wait, Debilitator...Though I only say that under dishy circumstances. You can basically force a weakness for Terra to exploit, or even more fun (if you take the option), emitting a Pearl weankness for DragoonBoots+DragonHorn+Pearl Lance Mog to occasionally outdo Bum Rush in damage (since Dragon Horn can make a possible 4th strike, and you can still proxy the Pearl spell to come off after a Jump). Only thing I wouldn't really do with him is bring him into the final fight.

Uhh... there should be something in the topic about this. Like from me. But I still think that Edgar is the most broken thing since Swiss Cheese.

[Life]

GJ 4:04 pm

the point is Locke does nothing in Thamasa because Terra and Strago completely smother him

the

end

And Cyan doesn't exist during this time frame. Are you actually arguing that Locke is worse than Cyan because Locke does less work than Terra and Strago in Thamasa? Do you even understand the idea of a comparison?

[grandjackal]

Not happening.

Let's look at the WoB first, specifically with regard to Cayane. Cyan is ass, even when he gets recruited. Sure, he can ignore defense with Fang. So? Sky and Tiger are quite terrible. Sky kills the chance of doing reliable damage since it's trigger only while Tiger is a very inferior Gravity. We get Gravity almost immediately after leaving the IMRF and before that, not much is susceptible to ID AND hard to kill. Seriously. The entirety of the Phantom Forest/Train are undead, Veldt doesn't really count and I guarantee that Cyan isn't fighting the Hell's Rider (Tiger does work there though since it does do 650 when used first). That leaves him with Zozo and the IMRF. It's important to note that Locke gets a free slot in the IMRF but Cyan is competing against... well, Edgar, Sabin and Gau. Locke can even go to Zozo since he doubles as a healer (well, he steals a Potion/Hi Potion every turn).

I know for a fact that your assumption with Gau is based on "If we go to the Veldt for Gigavolt and Aqua Breath". Nice as that is, hunting for both chances are will kill more time than save, especially since you and me both know Fire Dance+Flash insta-blicks all IMRF encounters. This basically leaves me to boss encounters, one of which has a gimmick about elemental weaknesses and not taking shit from physical. However, I'm shaky on it because I recall it not starting that way with his defense. If it does, Fang/Dispatch with Gauntlet smashes that bitch's face in. If not, then I can't really argue Genji/Terra, especially considering the boss that follows has limbs which Cyan can accidentally target.

As for Zozo, why not bring Cyan? I believe Slash would help against Hill Gigas, and Dispatch must certainly help against the boss. I could care less about healing in WoB, because no one competent should be in danger of dying in-battle. Oh, hey in fact, you can have Gauntlet+Hero Ring Cyan smash the boss down with Dispatch/Fang on top of Genji/Celice, Sabin and Edgar. Pfft, fuck Locke and his "Oooh lookie, I can toss items around like it makes me special somehow". Your argument of Locke "healing" is also on the premise that he's stealing hi potions, which is turns spent not killing things, something Cyan can do.

So then we got this team of Edgar and Sabin. They're going in. Gau is basically out. So it's between Celice who can just say "Genji" and win all arguments, nevermind innate Cure and Runic to eepsafe from Dancers who with their Blizzara can do nasty things. Then we got Locke vs Cyan. Hmm, more damage, or using items in-battle and pretending it's a special trait Locke alone has? Hmmm....

So what are we left with until Cyan gets Flurry? Essentially Fang, which breaks through defense (something Locke wishes he could do) and very situational use for Tiger. That's it. What does Locke have? Steal command, Thief Bracer, Brigand's Glove and the Moonring Blade. In addition, Locke has slightly higher Magic and gets Ramuh pretty early into the IMRF so that he can do, you know, damage. But once he does get Judgment Bolt, he's hitting weaknesses due to the entire IMRF being weak to Lightning. Cyan has nothing on that.

By Locke with Ramuh, you mean "any asshole with Ramuh" (like Celice), of which regardless only replicates what Edgar/Sabin already do with Fire Dance/Flash (because that doesn't CARE that IMRF enemies are weak to lightning as it makes it disappear anyways). This leaves the 2 bosses. One that Cyan ignores the "Elemental weakness change and high defense" gimmicky bullshit, and the train cart ride. No target control sucks, but so does shit damage from Locke. I'd still take Dispatch.

Afterwards, the comparison is a joke. Locke gets another free slot in Thamasa so to keep up with Esper time, Cyan needs to get into the Sealed Gate party. He can use dual Kazikiris at this point but... well, Gau stopped using Wind Slash ages ago and Cyan's damage with them is piss-poor. He can't OHKO the Outcasts (1100 HP? Yeah, you wish.) since Fang stopped doing good damage years ago, Flurry can't target (neither can Fang but Flurry's situation is worse) and he can't equip the Gaia Gear to deal with Lifeshaver, the most evil attack to ever exist.

Just because he exists in Thamasa doesn't mean dick, other than he has time to learn supportive spells to do actually useful stuff. He is not outdoing Strago's "Watchme clear everything with Aqua Breath" in the burning house, or Terra's "LolTrance Ice Rods on Flame Eater and Flame Rod on Ultros". Only time on that trip that actually matters is climbing up that mountain, where Steal/Heal might actually mean something.

As for the Sealed Cave, no one HAS to deal with Lifeshaver because of Noise Blaster, the most ridiculous contraption ever devised! You know as much as I do this thing is absurd and basically makes the sealed cave a walk in the park. I could make my team anyone I wanted and I could get through that dungeon unscathed. Question is then not how to make it easier, but faster? Celice has no business filling Terra's role (I believe she's forced anyways), so she has to face against Cyan who basically can just do what she can except has Fang/Dispatch. You think Locke has a better excuse?

Because the Force Armour doesn't show up until the WoR. We're still in the heart of the WoB. And Cyan is one of the few people who is NOT immune to the Outcasts' Lifeshaver. This alone bars Cyan from going into the Sealed Cave. Technically, this would also ban Edgar but Edgar can confuse the Outcasts with his Noiseblaster so he gets a pass.

And with that, you have nullified your own argument, just as I have agreed to. Noiseblaster alone makes that entire dungeon a non-factor.

As for the Floating Continent, it really comes down to what kind of party you want. You have 11 choices for 3 slots. If neither gets a shot, then so be it.

No chance of either arguing their way past Terra/Sabin/Edgar.

If you want to argue the WoR, go ahead. But let it be known that Cyan cannot do anything there that makes up for the absolute suck he brings to the party in the first half of the game. And to counteract what Locke has done so far.

Your best argument has basically been "Locke does nothing better than Cyan does" from what I can see.

Uhh... there should be something in the topic about this. Like from me. But I still think that Edgar is the most broken thing since Swiss Cheese.

Edgar's silliness and Sabin's pure brawn to me are two sides of the same coin. I only put Sabin above him because he is the one who is actually killing things in the end, though Edgar does make it easier on us.

And Cyan doesn't exist during this time frame. Are you actually arguing that Locke is worse than Cyan because Locke does less work than Terra and Strago in Thamasa? Do you even understand the idea of a comparison?

I do, and the argument of "Locke exists and still does nothing" does not automatically make one better/useful/has a point. I could have Loce dead the entire time I'm going through Thamasa, I would get the same results. I'm merely arguing that even though he's IN Thamasa, he's still doing NOTHING in Thamasa. I might actually get BETTER results since I won't have to spend time skipping his turn.

Here's how it works.

-Edgar and Sabin trivialize all random encounters in WoB. Anything concerning them is moot unless it involves killing them FASTER. Locke cannot win this argument against Cyan.

-In a boss fight, who kills IT faster without taking from others? Edgar doesn't really need anything, and all Sabin wants is a couple of Earrings and a Magic boosting Esper. Cyan doesn't care about any of that, he's not getting in their business. Terra can Genji/Magic Boosting Relic/Magic Swords to bolster whatever destruction she wants. Nothing Cyan really cares for either. So who do we have left? Locke, who is basically just no damage or life. Then we got Gau, who is Veldt dependent. Celice, who has to take from Terra to copy the same thing but do worse, and thus cripple Terra needlessly in return. Cyan does not do this. All Cyan wants is a Gauntlet, an Atlas Armlet and a +Str Esper and he's golden by simple process of elimination.

Let's skip to WoR, where I might actually give you the win anyways. Getting Locke IMMEDIATELY after getting Mog might result in us getting Ultima, and Ultima is good. Furthermore, Genji+Valiant Knife can do damage similar to Quadra Slice under the right circumstances, along with not having to go to Doma. Oh wait...Doma has the spare Genji Glove...You would be robbing us of Genji/Enhancer Terra unless we went to Doma, which case Cyan gets Quadra Slice anyways. Quadra Slice is safer since it doesn't rely on me being at "almost dead" health to do basically the same thing (and again, before anyone says Sword Tech meter kills time, I remind you of long and constant attack animations of lategame makes it irrelevent), you've only got the possibility of Ultima on Terra or Celice somewhere in Kefka's Tower.

End of the day, Locke does not contribute anything significant aside from the possibility of Ultima during the final fights of the Kefka Spire, which would indeed be a boon, and that's a MAYBE if we can actually get the AP in time (thank you Mog, for the most part). Otherwise the answers merely come down to this. Cyan has ways to do damage, Locke does not. Cyan has access to Force Armor, Locke does not. All Locke has is a bunch of times where he's forced, and even then I'd argue he's so useless that even when he's forced he's doing nothing significant. Both are generally not good just because they have a tendency to be overshadowed, but Cyan has a couple moments of glory early, and in WoR can do damage with less strings attached than Locke who needs to be at near death constantly and needs a heavily contested item, while Cyan wants possibly the least contested items on the planet.

[Ϲharlie]

If it does, Fang/Dispatch with Gauntlet smashes that bitch's face in.

Do you mean Gigas Glove or Hyper Wrist by any chance? Gauntlet only affects the standard attack command, which is completely useless to Cyan (outside of maybe Kazekiri and Zantetsuken). Besides, it's preferable to get the Genji Glove in the Returners' Hideout over the Gauntlet anyway. The second Gauntlet isn't obtained until you reach Umaro's cave.

Cyan has access to Force Armor, Locke does not.

lolwut?

Locke can definitely equip Force Armor. I even double checked on my FFVIa file.

Edited October 22, 2011 by The Humungus

[grandjackal]

Do you mean Gigas Glove or Hyper Wrist by any chance? Gauntlet only affects the standard attack command, which is completely useless to Cyan (outside of maybe Kazekiri and Zantetsuken). Besides, it's preferable to get the Genji Glove in the Returners' Hideout over the Gauntlet anyway. The second Gauntlet isn't obtained until you reach Umaro's cave.

My bad, I was under the impression that Sword Tech was bolstered by Bat Power as well, which Gauntlet bolsters (which I had bought early in South Figaro to help speed up the Tunnel Armor fight). Regardless, those things you mention help as well, along with the Hero Ring. Whatever works, basically.

lolwut?

Locke can definitely equip Force Armor. I even double checked on my FFVIa file.

I just checked via turning on the Wii and seeing if he could equip it. You using the GBA version? Might have been a change.

[Ϲharlie]

This is from a clean FFIIIus rom. It even gave me the "checksum okay" message as it booted up.

[grandjackal]

This is from a clean FFIIIus rom. It even gave me the "checksum okay" message as it booted up.

...Huh. Weird. Cause Locke in my game cannot equip it...

...But ok fine. He can wear Force Armor. Was really a minor benefit at best. Does this really help beat out what is mentioned about Cyan here? Does it make me wrong to assume that Locke is a useless piece of garbage who shouldn't just get away with the "he's forced to go" BS?

Edited October 23, 2011 by grandjackal

[Life]

...But ok fine. He can wear Force Armor. Was really a minor benefit at best. Does this really help beat out what is mentioned about Cyan here? Does it make me wrong to assume that Locke is a useless piece of garbage who shouldn't just get away with the "he's forced to go" BS?

I already told you this on AIM but...

Lightbringer.

[Life]

...But ok fine. He can wear Force Armor. Was really a minor benefit at best. Does this really help beat out what is mentioned about Cyan here? Does it make me wrong to assume that Locke is a useless piece of garbage who shouldn't just get away with the "he's forced to go" BS?

I already told you this on AIM but...

Lightbringer.

[grandjackal]

1. You doubleposted.

2. SNES rules say I should give that to Terra. Don't dispute it because I'm old school on the SNES! I'm flowin' STRAIGHT from the survival scroll!

*Motions a cane towards Locke*

CUT that bitch off!

Edited October 24, 2011 by grandjackal

[Snowy_One]

I'm curious as to why Relm is so low. Some people I've talked too say she's great due to high magic scores, while others say she sucks because of availability/being a little girl. I'm wondering if the only reason she's ranked so low is because of her join time, or is it something more?

[Life]

I'm curious as to why Relm is so low. Some people I've talked too say she's great due to high magic scores, while others say she sucks because of availability/being a little girl. I'm wondering if the only reason she's ranked so low is because of her join time, or is it something more?

Join time, Sketch being garbage, high Mag not meaning anything if you don't have spells to use (basically, if Relm does not learn Bio by the end of Esper Caves, she should get dumped for the rest of the game), shitty armour and weapons (brushes being the absolute weapon type in the game, even worse than Sabin's claws)... need I go on?

Snowy, I know you like the young girls but Relm just isn't that good in the context of an efficiency run. Sure, if we pump resources into her (AKA time on the FC), the girl gets really good. But why not use Edgar/Sabin/Mog/Terra/Strago/Setzer at a time where they're all decent at the very worst? Edgar/Sabin/Terra/Setzer have serious Esper Time on Relm (Setzer usually gets played in the Cave to the Sealed Gate due to being forced in the beginning of WoR and you wanting to have him not be bad), Mog murders stuff with Dance and Strago having Lores to back him up.

I will grant Crossbow's usefulness until Sabin gets Fire Dance...

Which doesn't happen until deep into Zozo. Don't kid yourself, GJ, that's a sizable portion of the game and you know it. I usually have to grind for Sabin to have it walking INTO Zozo.

which pointhe's helping with hte Sabin/Edgar Uber Nuke, and that Noiseblaster has it's uses later when Edgar's tools aren't strong enough to do enough to enemies to be relevent. But...Drill better than double Earring Aura Bolt at bosskilling? Then what if considering he has a ton of availability to gain +Mag for stuff like Fire Dance, Wind Slash, Aura Bolt, and soon to come Bum Rush, he cements himself on top for hte following reasons over Edgar.

I've done the math for you before, GJ, and we've had this argument on AIM. Don't make me do it again. Until Bum Rush (which doesn't come until the WoR), Sabin is not "destroying" Edgar when it comes to bosskilling duties since the two perform very similarly. But then he doesn't stay on top for long. A single dungeon (grabbing Mog) lets us grab Locke and then loot the majority of the Cultist's Tower. Silence the Holy Dragon (that easy) and then Edgar's got part 2 of his 3 piece suit of instant death, the Radiant Lance. Killing a Yojimbo in the coliseum gives us the Dragon Horn. And at that point, Sabin's fully outmatched.

1. Sabin needs no help in bosskilling, and easily your best in doing so. Best Edgar can do is Drill early for some nice extra damage (since Drill does not compare in boss killing to Sabin or Terra or even Cyan if you use him correctly), and Debilitator as pure support. Basically Sabin is almighty withno strings attached. Edgarhas a problem here and there.

Drill and Chainsaw are more than comparable. Drill has 191 Power. Chainsaw is 252. Aura Cannon has a measly 68 Power and works off of Sabin's garbage Mag stat (28 Mag is shit, plain and simple). Try making that argument again and make it sound convincing this time.

2. Sabin over time will slowly not even need Edgar's help to nuke things with stuff like Fire Dance or Wind Slash, and if he still does, My Genji-Enhancer mages can fill in the gap for Edgar with most likely greater damage.

Wind Slash doesn't show up until level 30. So... WoR. Ok. Secondly, Sabin doesn't have enough Mag to properly nuke stuff with either of those moves. Edgar's usually needed to clean up anyway. So what if Sabin takes off 3/4 of an enemy's HP? As long as Edgar can do 1/2 in a single shot, it doesn't mean anything for Sabin.

3. Notice how both of these things are the category of "I kill shit really quick while you don't", thus speeding up the process of an actual fight while Edgar can only support the endeavor? Sabin in the end is doing hte most heavy lifting. Edgar helps him for a period of time with Flash and Noiseblaster, but in the end it's Sabin that's doing the actual work.

See above point. Or to put it in an FE style...

It doesn't matter if Eddie does 22 damage to an enemy with 34 HP in a single round while Micaiah only does 17. Micaiah is there to clean up after Eddie. Or Eddie is there to clean up after Micaiah. Both of them 2RKO that enemy so neither of them is really doing better than the other. Same in FFVI. But Edgar's just doing it for longer and more efficiently.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Shadow Mir]

Excuse me, but with regard to avoiding Yojimbo's killing blow that happens before it dies, Vanish averts that, right?

[Life]

Excuse me, but with regard to avoiding Yojimbo's killing blow that happens before it dies, Vanish averts that, right?

Vanish isn't guaranteed because it's the coliseum. Try Prayer Beads, they add 20 Evasion.

[grandjackal]

Join time, Sketch being garbage, high Mag not meaning anything if you don't have spells to use (basically, if Relm does not learn Bio by the end of Esper Caves, she should get dumped for the rest of the game), shitty armour and weapons (brushes being the absolute weapon type in the game, even worse than Sabin's claws)... need I go on?

Snowy, I know you like the young girls but Relm just isn't that good in the context of an efficiency run. Sure, if we pump resources into her (AKA time on the FC), the girl gets really good. But why not use Edgar/Sabin/Mog/Terra/Strago/Setzer at a time where they're all decent at the very worst? Edgar/Sabin/Terra/Setzer have serious Esper Time on Relm (Setzer usually gets played in the Cave to the Sealed Gate due to being forced in the beginning of WoR and you wanting to have him not be bad), Mog murders stuff with Dance and Strago having Lores to back him up.

Her only argument that keeps her out of bottom really is that Fake Moustache is an excuse to use her in Kefka's Tower that actually helps, and I believe she can equip the Healing Rod.

Which doesn't happen until deep into Zozo. Don't kid yourself, GJ, that's a sizable portion of the game and you know it. I usually have to grind for Sabin to have it walking INTO Zozo.

Didn't say it wasn't.

I've done the math for you before, GJ, and we've had this argument on AIM. Don't make me do it again. Until Bum Rush (which doesn't come until the WoR), Sabin is not "destroying" Edgar when it comes to bosskilling duties since the two perform very similarly. But then he doesn't stay on top for long. A single dungeon (grabbing Mog) lets us grab Locke and then loot the majority of the Cultist's Tower. Silence the Holy Dragon (that easy) and then Edgar's got part 2 of his 3 piece suit of instant death, the Radiant Lance. Killing a Yojimbo in the coliseum gives us the Dragon Horn. And at that point, Sabin's fully outmatched.

I'll bring up my point in the next part, but I just wanna say you get the Dragon Horn in Phoenix Cave anyways.

Drill and Chainsaw are more than comparable. Drill has 191 Power. Chainsaw is 252. Aura Cannon has a measly 68 Power and works off of Sabin's garbage Mag stat (28 Mag is shit, plain and simple). Try making that argument again and make it sound convincing this time.

I believe they also only work off their own power, as in they never change in damage. Aura Cannon works off a generally weaker stat for the enemy, and Sabin can build it up with Mag+ Espers. He's got all the time in the world, it helps his nukes, and it helps Bumrush. I believe Earrings also help boost the damage further. Do you usually do this with Sabin? Because if I recall, Pummel doesn't exactly fare much better, so might as well super-power his magic. Both tools you mention have a shelf life in their own, and the Chainsaw I would not put faith in due to the fact it has a 25% chance of just doing nothing on a boss.

Wind Slash doesn't show up until level 30. So... WoR. Ok. Secondly, Sabin doesn't have enough Mag to properly nuke stuff with either of those moves. Edgar's usually needed to clean up anyway. So what if Sabin takes off 3/4 of an enemy's HP? As long as Edgar can do 1/2 in a single shot, it doesn't mean anything for Sabin.

I have given a reason that there's no reason we shouldn't just super-buff his Mag stat the entire time we have him. Secondly, you assume we need Edgar to finish off Sabin's stuff, and here you seem to clearly state that Sabin's doing a better job of it anyways. But while we're in the WoR, I can just go and pick up Bum Rush. In the WoR, Edgar's on real way to even come close to Sabin's nuking power (by the way, I believe those raptor enemies in Kefka's Tower are actually weak o Wind. I have seen him one shot them with Wind Slash) is Debilitator/Dragoon Equips/Radiant Lance for when he FINALLY gets a Holy weakness on the enemy. Outide of sheer luck, this doesn't happen instantly. Could be several turns Edgar wastes essentially doing nothing until he gets the weakness he wants out of the enemy, turns Sabin is blowing the target the fuck up with Bum Rush.

Also as a reference, is we're agreeing at some point he's level 30 in WoR, This owuld mean by the time he's got Wind Slash, well...Let's think how many levels he might gain off base before we get a Magic boosting Esper. Through his own adventure during the party split, fighting the Hellrider and Zozo, let's say he's gained about...4 levels. This would mean by Wind Slash, he would have up to around 42-40 magic pow by the time he gets it, to note the force Wind Slash will be coming off.

Essentially here's how I see the progression.

-Edgar's got Autocrossbow against random encounters, Sabin has nothing outside of single targets, though at that same time Edgar doesn't have anything to deal with Sabin's better single target damage. However, since a majority of enemies at this time are random encounters, point goes to Edgar.

-Zozo comes along. Sabin's got Fire Dance, Edgar's got Drill/Saw/Flash. Essentially they are even. However, note that slowly from here, Sabin is building power in everything he does good.

-Opera House. Wait, don't the rats here have weakness to Fire as you told me, and that the damage is boostable through Earrings?

-Magitech. Essentially the two work off eachother throughout it's entire progression. Tie here.

-Sealed Cave due to enemy's weird survivability and their scary attacks, and the fact Noiseblaster makes it a joke, Edgar wins.

-Floating Continent, again both work off one another here, but for Atma Weapon? By now, the magic power Sabin's been building is starting to have a noticeable increase in his power. While Noiseblaster for earlier random encounters might be in his favor, one could argue that Sabin now does more damage to single targets such as Atma Weapon, and the Tricksters and that one boss that keeps you from leaving the place is also a point to Sabin. It's a tie in my eyes.

-WoR comes. Story Events until we get the Falcon, but it should be noted I can just go right pick up Bum Rush. We go pick up Mog? Well since we're in the neighborhood, let's go murder Tritoch and the Ice Dragon as well, because we have Bum Rush! Then we go to Phoenix Cave, where it's business as usual until we meet the Fire Dragon, which we need to get the Dragon Horn off of, something you claim is part of Edgar's complete suit of death! I'll be Bum Rushing that too, Edgar, what do you say? Thank you, that's correct. We doing side quests? Wind Slash against Hidon's Minions, Wind Slash against the 3 stooges, Wrexsoul (a boss that Debilitator Dragon Horn doesn't work against due to his tendency to vanish), Bum Rush the Thunder Dragon of Mt Zozo, the Sr Behemoths in the Cave in the Veldt, do you want me to continue? We could even kill Doom Gaze before we even go to pick up Mog thanks to Bum Rush.

-Kefka's Tower. Windslash alone can deal with a certain encounter (groups of those raptor things), Bum Rush is guaranteed to kill SOMETHNG if those things are not involved (outside a greater behemoth possibly, but neither's Edgar), and Bum Rush is free against bosses. Edgar has to waste turns Debilitating until he gets what he wants, of which the possibility that the rest of his team may have done more than Edgar to actually kill the boss. Edgar's crowd control also is pretty much limited to Noiseblaster at this point, which I believe enemies around this point are not as vulnerable to Confuse as they were in just about everywhere else.

Suppose you could say Edgar is winning WoBat points and tieing in others until Floating Continent, which point Sabin's got the rest from there, and I feel Sabin destroys WoR far harder than Edgar destroys WoB.

[Renall]

I only just caught this topic, but I wanted to weigh in on a couple Edgar-related things. He's really deserved where he is and I would not even begin to think he slows down, even when Sabin picks up Bum/Phantom Rush. Yes, at that point dual-Earring Sabin pretty much destroys him for ST damage. But Edgar has more than a few tricks remaining, including

,

(which can also work on just about any random encounter, granted you'll just wipe most of them with Flash + Fire Dance or something for 90% of the game), and oh yes,

.

Mind you the videos are a LLG so strategies like this kind of have to be used, but the point is that Edgar does all of this with items that require effectively zero or minimal investment (as opposed to Gau, who while indispensible in a LLG requires actual effort to set up). And nobody does what he can do with the Debilitator, which would actually be potentially quite useful if we're not grinding out magic (it'd be a lot easier to set a Fire or Poison weakness for Terra than to waste time giving Terra Bolt and Ice spells). Plus Debilitator helps Sabin in theory, although of course by the time you have it he's probably moved on to Bum Rushing.

But seriously, Gau in Bottom? If you're sandbagging him, maybe. Three trips to the Veldt per half of the game is more than enough.

Cyan's terrible. His attacks are all basically physical. Instant defense-ignoring is nice but even in Sabin's scenario he's getting grossly outclassed by Aurabolt and it only gets better for Sabin and worse for Cyan thereafter. You just can't buff physical moves the same way you can buff magic (until the Dragoon setup, anyway, but that's only for Edgar and Mog, two vastly better characters before that point anyway). He's always beaten on damage by anyone who uses magic, beaten by Edgar on utility and (come Drill/Chainsaw) physical damage (and Edgar still has Flash, remember, which can be dual-Earringed), and beaten by Locke on being forced to be around. You'd never want to take him anywhere, and even if we accepted always using him whenever given the option he just won't return on investment. He's solely better than Umaro by virtue of being able to use spells and items and actually being there most of the game.

Locke is fine but other than the MBlock bug on SNES he ain't that exciting, and you can't comfortably get his MBlock to 128% without compromising other characters unless you hand him Illumina/Lightbringer. He's forced a lot but not that useful when he is there. At best you can say he gets the lion's share of MP/AP in the World of Balance, since he's basically always around. But the Phoenix Cave is a giant bag of dicks. GBA he might actually be better on account of Evade being good, as only he and Shadow really excel at physical Evade.

I would definitely say Edgar and Terra are the top two, Celes Gau and potentially Mog in there somewhere... exact placements I couldn't say with any certainty because my brain is tainted by my last run being a LLG where crazy things happen, like Gogo being better than Sabin in the endgame.

EDIT: Oh and if you get Nightshade, Gau instantly wins every fight in the game if you're allowing glitchy Rages. I didn't take that into account because it's somewhat difficult to game that formation, but it instantly wins everything.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Renall

[Life]

I only just caught this topic, but I wanted to weigh in on a couple Edgar-related things. He's really deserved where he is and I would not even begin to think he slows down, even when Sabin picks up Bum/Phantom Rush. Yes, at that point dual-Earring Sabin pretty much destroys him for ST damage. But Edgar has more than a few tricks remaining, including

,

(which can also work on just about any random encounter, granted you'll just wipe most of them with Flash + Fire Dance or something for 90% of the game), and oh yes,

.

Edgar is great. Nobody is denying that. But Sabin may just be as good on the offensive side of things (completely forgot that his lategame defense sucks monkey balls) if not better. As for Air Anchor, that's a weak argument. I can replicate that with a Death spell and I don't even need to wait a turn for the enemy to die. Death's accuracy is pretty good when you're not sandbagging your character to hell (see my Fewest Steps run for example of that).

Mind you the videos are a LLG so strategies like this kind of have to be used, but the point is that Edgar does all of this with items that require effectively zero or minimal investment (as opposed to Gau, who while indispensible in a LLG requires actual effort to set up). And nobody does what he can do with the Debilitator, which would actually be potentially quite useful if we're not grinding out magic (it'd be a lot easier to set a Fire or Poison weakness for Terra than to waste time giving Terra Bolt and Ice spells). Plus Debilitator helps Sabin in theory, although of course by the time you have it he's probably moved on to Bum Rushing.

Couple of problems.

• This isn't a low level game.
  
• The Debilitator is not a very useful or reliable Tool. It's great in theory but its practicality sucks since you have to keep using it until you hit the weakness you want.
  

But seriously, Gau in Bottom? If you're sandbagging him, maybe. Three trips to the Veldt per half of the game is more than enough.

Three trips? On an efficiency run why are we ever fighting on the Veldt? I don't hear arguments for babying Meg on an efficiency run and I'm pretty sure that the same applies to Gau here. The only stuff Gau can do are his starting Rages (eh...) and the magic you teach him (as in... nothing).

Gau's pretty terrible here. God on a LLG but in that kind of run, grinding on the Veldt isn't exactly a bad thing.

Cyan's terrible. His attacks are all basically physical. Instant defense-ignoring is nice but even in Sabin's scenario he's getting grossly outclassed by Aurabolt and it only gets better for Sabin and worse for Cyan thereafter. You just can't buff physical moves the same way you can buff magic (until the Dragoon setup, anyway, but that's only for Edgar and Mog, two vastly better characters before that point anyway). He's always beaten on damage by anyone who uses magic, beaten by Edgar on utility and (come Drill/Chainsaw) physical damage (and Edgar still has Flash, remember, which can be dual-Earringed), and beaten by Locke on being forced to be around. You'd never want to take him anywhere, and even if we accepted always using him whenever given the option he just won't return on investment. He's solely better than Umaro by virtue of being able to use spells and items and actually being there most of the game.

Cyan is usable up to... IMRF. It's a toss-up between him or Celes for Zozo simply because his damage output is better than hers and Locke's stealing takes care of healing (not to mention that GJ just realized how ridiculous Locke's earlygame offense can actually get with the Genji Glove). GJ's the Cyan expert though.

Locke is fine but other than the MBlock bug on SNES he ain't that exciting, and you can't comfortably get his MBlock to 128% without compromising other characters unless you hand him Illumina/Lightbringer. He's forced a lot but not that useful when he is there. At best you can say he gets the lion's share of MP/AP in the World of Balance, since he's basically always around. But the Phoenix Cave is a giant bag of dicks. GBA he might actually be better on account of Evade being good, as only he and Shadow really excel at physical Evade.

I would definitely say Edgar and Terra are the top two, Celes Gau and potentially Mog in there somewhere... exact placements I couldn't say with any certainty because my brain is tainted by my last run being a LLG where crazy things happen, like Gogo being better than Sabin in the endgame.

EDIT: Oh and if you get Nightshade, Gau instantly wins every fight in the game if you're allowing glitchy Rages. I didn't take that into account because it's somewhat difficult to game that formation, but it instantly wins everything.

Once again, Gau has next to no Rages and we're not grinding for them. It's that simple.

[Renall]

double post; sorry about that

Edited November 12, 2011 by Renall

[Renall]

Equating "getting rages" with "grinding for rages" is basically sandbagging. I'd certainly grant that the post-Narshe trip is not justifiable and that hurts him, but you're basically saying "we're never getting Rages," which is quite different. There really aren't that many Rages he'd need, and he only really has to grab one or two of them. But I get the sense you don't care to know how Rages work or how easily manipulable they are. Hell, you give him just Stray Cat for the entire game and he's leagues better than Cyan, period. If you can't even give him that (he can get it in one Leap the very first time you're even on the Veldt), then we might as well be doing a three-man Kefka's Tower run because it would be equally tedious to walk to Tzen for Sabin (let alone get anybody else in the WoR). And that would be a bare minimum. There's absolutely no way he can be that low unless you simply do not care about using him. I'm not saying "put in the effort" because it takes almost no effort at all to get Stray Cat and Templar. You let him pick up one undead Rage at some point during the game and he can cheese several bosses or avoid ID moves with Rage-granted death protection, meaning he has 255 Defense and no need for a Safety Bit (which can go to somebody else).

Also how exactly is it easy to justify having Doom/Death but not Air Anchor? And given the choice between the two, it's obviously better to have Edgar use the latter since other characters have better things to do against enemies in the final battles (damage obviously, or Mute on Magic and Stop on Hit while Edgar puts Tools down). The fact that Edgar can do it for free is obviously better than anybody else in the same tier who would have Death at the end. I suppose Sabin doesn't really need his MP, but Sabin really shouldn't be spending any turn in the final battle not Bum Rushing.