Final Fantasy VI Tier List

[Shadow Mir]

I question the accuracy of the faq for starting rages, is all.

And you could try to avoid a couple of the formations in the Marshal group. Ditto Dark Side. Those encounters only appear in the veldt if you met them before in the real world. And one of the encounters in the ghost group is impossible to meet before you first reach the veldt. It's a battle from the serpent trench. 4 out of 7, even if you get all of the other battles. And Heavy Armor is Locke's scenario (I forget is it anywhere else?). Though I guess there might be some things worth meeting in his scenario and so you might want to go there first.

The Heavy Armor may appear during the Narshe Battle sequence accompanied by two Corporals (can't remember if it's a green soldier or a brown soldier that yields that formation).

Why is Edgar above Terra? He doesn't get access to Drill or Chainsaw when you first get him but Terra gets to use magic from the start. And in the WoR, she gets to Trance and destroy everything!

Also, Relm above Locke because Relm has that giant Magic stat to hurt enemies with.

Sorry, but Edgar > Terra seems pretty well justified, as I see it. Auto Crossbow owns randoms for a good portion of earlygame, and Bioblaster eats Corporals for breakfast in the Narshe Battle sequence.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Malik Maxwell

[Life]

Why is Edgar above Terra? He doesn't get access to Drill or Chainsaw when you first get him but Terra gets to use magic from the start. And in the WoR, she gets to Trance and destroy everything!

Until the Cave to the Esper Gate, Terra's main offence is Fire. Fucking Auto Crossbow is better than Fire and it goes MT. Edgar also gets a shitload of Esper time on Terra including the cart ride back where you gain like 13ish AP easily after beating Number 128. For the record, 13 AP is enough to master Bio if Edgar equips Shoat ASAP. So Edgar can have Bio (a weaker level 2 spell that also sets Poison) at the exact same time when we get Terra back. And for the record, Terra's next attacking spell is Fira and it's learned at level 22, a level that she isn't going to be at.

This isn't even considering the rest of the WoB (where Noiseblaster, Chainsaw and Drill are amazing) or the WoR (Edgar joins before Terra, can get the Holy Lance + Dragon Horn + Dragoon Boots combo before Terra rejoins). Edgar is the single best character in this game.

Question: Are we assuming Sabin's scenario 2nd or last? Because you guys seems to be mentioning Vector Hound which is only found in Locke's scenario.

Edited January 19, 2011 by King Russell Hantz

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Life]

I'd assume Sabin's scenario last. The other two scenarios are very short and easy to get over with, while Sabin's is the longest to complete by far.

FUCK, STOP WITH THE ROB MARIANO LOVE SINCE SABIN KINDA LOOKS LIKE HIM AND YOU WANT TO SAVE THE BEST FOR LAST!

Seriously,

Locke's scenario should be taken after Sabin's. You can find an Earring on the Phantom Train and I believe that without it, Celes can't OHKO Vector Hounds MT style without it. Need to check this one, though.

[Narga_Rocks]

I tend to like Locke's last because you can't remove items after Locke and Celes fight Tunnel Armour. Also it lets me give them green berets for their scenario, since you can meet Telstar for one in the base and then more on the veldt.

In my grinding days, I generally got like 4 or 5 before jumping in the serpent trench. It especially helps if Locke and Celes are level 6. But then this isn't an LLG tier list. I've only gone up to the thamasa sequence at low levels before, though, so even if we wanted to make one of those I can't help with it. Terra and Gau are tops for that one, by the way. Gau because he's the only one getting to double digits (aside from Mog) since he can leap away to maintain the lowest average levels possible while recruiting others. Terra due to morph.

Yeah, and Earrings and stuff helps. Nothing from Locke's scenario gives a significant improvement to beating what Sabin and friends face. I think.

[Rodykitty]

EDIT: Nvm I think I misread your post.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Super FE3 Player

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Life]

The scenario order shouldn't matter too much, it just means that Gau has less rages available. Vector Pup is the only real good one, and I'd take Templar over it any day.

Whiskey.

Tango.

Foxtrot.

The bolded part is full of fail. Honestly. Vector Hound (I use FF6 Advance terms because I don't like FF3's names) has !Bite as its Rage (Attack x1.5). How is this a good rage? Fucking Alacran (Areneid) is better than it (!Numb sets Stop).

Edited January 19, 2011 by King Russell Hantz

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Life]

Auto Haste, and Bite makes a good substitute for Catscratch since its somewhat hard to get.

Huh? Since when? I need to check the Rage Guide but isn't Stray Cat more common than you think (more than 1 formation)?

Stray Cat appears 37.5% of the time in Pack 7 and 12.5% of the time in Pack 8. And Catscratch is Attack x4. Even with Auto-Haste, there is no reason to leave the Veldt without grabbing Stray Cat and instead calling Vector Hound sufficient.

Honestly, using a Speed Run as a measuring stick is a bad idea. So is a Low Level Game or a Fewest Steps Run. None of the three show what all the characters are actually capable of doing. In a Low Level Game, Gau is God while in a Fewest Step Run, he's worthless and even dies in the Serpent Trench pretty occasionally. The best way to showcase a character properly is in a regular playthrough where the player visits everywhere (in a specific order, so that we can determine how good a character is at that place in the game) without being stupidly inefficient. Basically, this rules out Paladin Shield grinding, Quick grinding on Cyan and Ultima grinding on just about everyone minus Terra/Relm/Celes (one of them will learn it).

We should set down a firm order of how to gain characters and skills in the WoR, if we are to do this.

Edited January 19, 2011 by King Russell Hantz

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[General Spoon]

Huh? Since when? I need to check the Rage Guide but isn't Stray Cat more common than you think (more than 1 formation)?

Stray Cat appears 37.5% of the time in Pack 7 and 12.5% of the time in Pack 8. And Catscratch is Attack x4. Even with Auto-Haste, there is no reason to leave the Veldt without grabbing Stray Cat and instead calling Vector Hound sufficient.

Honestly, using a Speed Run as a measuring stick is a bad idea. So is a Low Level Game or a Fewest Steps Run. None of the three show what all the characters are actually capable of doing. In a Low Level Game, Gau is God while in a Fewest Step Run, he's worthless and even dies in the Serpent Trench pretty occasionally. The best way to showcase a character properly is in a regular playthrough where the player visits everywhere (in a specific order, so that we can determine how good a character is at that place in the game) without being stupidly inefficient. Basically, this rules out Paladin Shield grinding, Quick grinding on Cyan and Ultima grinding on just about everyone minus Terra/Relm/Celes (one of them will learn it).

We should set down a firm order of how to gain characters and skills in the WoR, if we are to do this.

So what exactly DO you use as a measuring stick if you don't use time, low levels, steps, or liquid assets to measure efficiency? You must first define what efficient is before you can throw terms like "stupidly inefficient" around.

Edited January 20, 2011 by General Spoon

[Narga_Rocks]

Um, how about a math check on the stray cat business?

pack 7:

0 Empty

1 Stray Cat, Stray Cat, Stray Cat

2 CrassHoppr, CrassHoppr, Stray Cat, Stray Cat

3 CrassHoppr, CrassHoppr, CrassHoppr

4 Rhobite, Rhobite, Rhobite, Rhobite, Rhobite

5 Beakor

6 Beakor, Beakor, Stray Cat

7 Beakor, Rhobite, Rhobite

pack 8:

0 Rhobite, Rhobite, Rhobite

1 Beakor, Stray Cat, CrassHoppr, CrassHoppr

2 Empty

3 Empty

4 Empty

5 Telstar, Soldier, Soldier, Soldier, Soldier

6 Doberman, Doberman, Doberman

7 Empty

Let's assume you get every single one of those formations before reaching the veldt.

There are 3 out of 7 in the first and 1 out of 4 in the second.

42.857142% for the first and 25% for the second.

1 - 4/7 * 3/4 = 1 - 3/7 = 4/7

You've got a 57.142857% chance of getting a stray cat each time through the packs. That's assuming you get every single encounter before going to the veldt. If you've missed some stray cat encounters, your chance goes down. If you miss some of the others, your chance goes up. Though you only get one shot in the entire game at meeting Telstar and Doberman. However, you can attempt to force the Doberman fight to be 2x Doberman instead of 3x. It's easy since I think you can fight the dobermen first in the base on the way to the phantom forest. As in, before spending time fighting telstar, so it shouldn't take too long and you don't do anything random before then.

Then you'll never get the 3x Doberman fight ever and the second fight is 1 of 3 instead of 1 of 4.

1 - 4/7 * 2/3 = 1 - 8/21 = 13/21 (and I don't feel interested in figuring that one out).

Unfortunately, the rest of those battles I think all occur on the way from the start of Sabin's scenario until you jump down the falls. So you'll probably meet them all, or if nothing else it is much more annoying to enforce the skipping of some of them.

Still, you can get to 13/21 which is better than 50%. If your issue is "less than 50%", Stray Cat isn't.

That is of course assuming that the game doesn't skip formations if it rolls an "empty", and that there is some check to ensure that it picks something from each pack along the way.

So what exactly DO you use as a measuring stick if you don't use time, low levels, steps, or liquid assets to measure efficiency? You must first define what efficient is before you can throw terms like "stupidly inefficient" around.

Open every chest, get every character. Just as a start. I'd say "with the fewest steps", but that still kills Gau's rage list. With the lowest levels also just turns it into an LLG, since most LLGers I think like the "challenge" of getting everything while at low levels, since that requires beating everything at those low levels. Time is silly, since some people take longer picking items or characters or whatever.

It's tough to say what is and isn't an "efficient" way of getting Gau rages. Maybe, every time you finish a new area you can run through the veldt once? By run through, meaning start on pack x and end on pack x -1 without encountering pack x again? That allows use of Gau while setting an objective (albeit arbitrary) restriction on leaping.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[General Spoon]

It's tough to say what is and isn't an "efficient" way of getting Gau rages. Maybe, every time you finish a new area you can run through the veldt once? By run through, meaning start on pack x and end on pack x -1 without encountering pack x again? That allows use of Gau while setting an objective (albeit arbitrary) restriction on leaping.

Perhaps the problem lies with Gau and not the policy, seeing the special accommodations that need to be proposed for him to not hit adjacent to Umaro.

Edited January 20, 2011 by General Spoon

[Narga_Rocks]

Perhaps the problem lies with Gau and not the policy, seeing the special accommodations that need to be proposed for him to not hit adjacent to Umaro.

And yet how many people here have gone through a game without grinding for magic, at the very least? If you can't grind for Gau's rages, no grinding for magic, either.

So, don't run from anything, get every chest/hidden item, get every character. Fewest steps in dungeons while meeting those goals but you can take as many as you want in cities and stuff (implying unlimited coliseum usage). And unlimited steps in those battle sequences like saving Terra and protecting Banon. No Moogle Charm use. No abusing dying + save points.

Do we even know how much AP (Magic Points in snes) you'll get during the game? It's hard to know how good everyone will be if you don't even know what is possible to learn.

Also, that will mean you have to be efficient about going through Narshe in wor, since you can only go there once and you have to do everything while you are there. In the fewest steps possible. And of course teleporting out of stuff once you learn it without breaking those rules. No Kefka's tower diving, either, so no easy fixed dice or anything else there. Though I suppose if you moogle charm it maybe that should be allowed. Whatever.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[General Spoon]

And yet how many people here have gone through a game without grinding for magic, at the very least? If you can't grind for Gau's rages, no grinding for magic, either.

So, don't run from anything, get every chest/hidden item, get every character. Fewest steps in dungeons while meeting those goals but you can take as many as you want in cities and stuff (implying unlimited coliseum usage). And unlimited steps in those battle sequences like saving Terra and protecting Banon. No Moogle Charm use. No abusing dying + save points.

Do we even know how much AP (Magic Points in snes) you'll get during the game? It's hard to know how good everyone will be if you don't even know what is possible to learn.

Also, that will mean you have to be efficient about going through Narshe in wor, since you can only go there once and you have to do everything while you are there. In the fewest steps possible. And of course teleporting out of stuff once you learn it without breaking those rules. No Kefka's tower diving, either, so no easy fixed dice or anything else there. Though I suppose if you moogle charm it maybe that should be allowed. Whatever.

So you mean that you'd use some sort of 100% completion sort of yardstick for the list? Because I'd use time as a yardstick. My yardstick says that its faster to run/use smokebombs, leave chests, and not recruit everybody.

Also, I don't recall this list being specified as SNES or Advance. This does make a difference, because some bugs were fixed in the Advance version.

[Narga_Rocks]

So you mean that you'd use some sort of 100% completion sort of yardstick for the list? Because I'd use time as a yardstick. My yardstick says that its faster to run/use smokebombs, leave chests, and not recruit everybody.

So? Who cares about speed? Besides, it doesn't really matter what you or I would want to use as the yardstick. It matters what IOS wants to use. If he doesn't use your yardstick, and you want your yardstick to be used, make your own thread.

As for my earlier suggestion, it's similar to doing the gaidens or not doing the gaidens in fe games. bblade would say don't. Many of the others say do.

I like the idea of getting a "full" experience of the game. Maybe you don't need to get every single chest no matter how out of the way, but how about at the very least beating up every single boss in the game? Maybe also getting all the espers and characters (like how dondon recruits everyone possible in all of his 0% growths plays, without fail). I don't really see beating Kefka while skipping dozens of bosses as actually playing the game. Just like you go to all the gaidens for the "full" fe game. Skipping them is just lame. So is skipping stuff like beating up on all the dragons and whatever else.

Also, I don't recall this list being specified as SNES or Advance. This does make a difference, because some bugs were fixed in the Advance version.

True. Like the evade bug. And of course vanish + doom/x-zone/snare, but that's just completely cheesy.

And yes, I love 100% completion, so I'm thinking all the chests, all the enemies (aka fill that list on the gba version), all the characters, all the items (which sadly requires morph, which is a pain to use if you also need to grab Ragnarok Sword and you aren't in the GBA version). But that is not something I think would be accepted, so I toned it down a notch. Especially since proper 100% completion would, I suppose, involve learning all the spells and hitting level 99 with everyone.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[General Spoon]

I don't believe IOS actually specified anything beyond linking to a guide and saying we'd follow something like that, though I may be mistaken.

EDIT: It appears to be a guide for a 6 hour 30 minute clear. I'm cool with that.

Edited January 20, 2011 by General Spoon

[Don Draper]

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Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[General Spoon]

I did link to the speedrun guide, but I'm rethinking that now. It really depends on what everyone would prefer to argue with and what provokes the best discussion. I don't think every single chest is necessary (just the one's that will have a noticeable impact on efficiency) but pretty much everything else Narga said seems reasonable (not sure if I agree with infinite Colosseum though).

We need to have some sort of unit to measure efficiency. It could be time, or steps, or levels, or liquid assets, or what have you. Its different than Fire Emblem efficiency in that we can't accurately measure it in turns, so we need to determine something else to measure it by, and if somebody wants to make a list to measure a different efficiency then they can make their own list (doubt it will happen).

[Narga_Rocks]

We need to have some sort of unit to measure efficiency. It could be time, or steps, or levels, or liquid assets, or what have you. Its different than Fire Emblem efficiency in that we can't accurately measure it in turns, so we need to determine something else to measure it by, and if somebody wants to make a list to measure a different efficiency then they can make their own list (doubt it will happen).

Except not only do you need a measurement for how well you are doing, you also need a list of requirements for what needs doing. You seem to have a minimalist view. Beat the game, simple as that, in the shortest time or steps or levels. Not sure what kind of idea you'd have for liquid assets. I could just fight cactrots and hoovers forever while wearing the cat hood to accomplish that.

I just see the simple "beat the game" requirement as too simple. Too minimal. It's like half-playing the game.

If you can be "efficient" in fire emblem while visiting all the gaidens and recruiting everyone recruitable, then surely you can be "efficient" in final fantasy while beating all the bosses (call the optional ones "gaiden chapters"), getting all the characters, and getting the most useful items.

As for infinite coliseum or no, I suppose you could maintain the "getting the most useful items" clause from my previous paragraph. Getting a Minerva out of the Czarina gown and getting a Holy Lance and Dragon Horn quickly could perhaps be considered among the most useful items. Whereas getting 12 Miracle Shoes is perhaps not. That would be a middle ground that allows you to actually go to the coliseum without being able to spend hours there.

[Rodykitty]

I thought the definition of efficient for this topic was simply playing through without stopping in a single spot to level up, but instead getting level ups and things you need on the way. Availability seems to be factored in (most of the top/high tier characters don't require side quests to get in WoR).

In IRC, IOS said that he was able to get Celes Bolt 2 via Espers rather easily during the Magitek factory. Being able to get Tier 2 spells without grinding really hurts Gau, IMO, so I think he should stay in Mid tier (where you can at most break even with his cost but not really profit).

[General Spoon]

Except not only do you need a measurement for how well you are doing, you also need a list of requirements for what needs doing. You seem to have a minimalist view. Beat the game, simple as that, in the shortest time or steps or levels. Not sure what kind of idea you'd have for liquid assets. I could just fight cactrots and hoovers forever while wearing the cat hood to accomplish that.

I just see the simple "beat the game" requirement as too simple. Too minimal. It's like half-playing the game.

If you can be "efficient" in fire emblem while visiting all the gaidens and recruiting everyone recruitable, then surely you can be "efficient" in final fantasy while beating all the bosses (call the optional ones "gaiden chapters"), getting all the characters, and getting the most useful items.

As for infinite coliseum or no, I suppose you could maintain the "getting the most useful items" clause from my previous paragraph. Getting a Minerva out of the Czarina gown and getting a Holy Lance and Dragon Horn quickly could perhaps be considered among the most useful items. Whereas getting 12 Miracle Shoes is perhaps not. That would be a middle ground that allows you to actually go to the coliseum without being able to spend hours there.

When I said liquid assets I meant gil that the player has, and it was actually a throwaway line to show the variety of ways efficiency could be measured (I am not seriously suggesting that we measure efficiency by the amount of gil you have when the game ends).

As for minimalist, we don't have any problem when we skip chests in Fire Emblem because we don't need the contents and it will save turns to skip them.

[Narga_Rocks]

When I said liquid assets I meant gil that the player has, and it was actually a throwaway line to show the variety of ways efficiency could be measured (I am not seriously suggesting that we measure efficiency by the amount of gil you have when the game ends).

Still, I don't see how efficiency could be measured based off gil alone. You can spend forever getting 20000 a pop in the miranda desert. Gil works better in fire emblem games without unlimited use of arenas. Or other games where there is a finite amount of money that you can gain.

As for minimalist, we don't have any problem when we skip chests in Fire Emblem because we don't need the contents and it will save turns to skip them.

What you are suggesting is quite a bit beyond skipping a few unimportant chests, though. Skipping bosses is like skipping gaidens. Skipping characters is like, well, skipping characters.

[General Spoon]

Still, I don't see how efficiency could be measured based off gil alone. You can spend forever getting 20000 a pop in the miranda desert. Gil works better in fire emblem games without unlimited use of arenas. Or other games where there is a finite amount of money that you can gain.

Why are you still hung up on this? I already said I wasn't serious about measuring efficiency in gil.

What you are suggesting is quite a bit beyond skipping a few unimportant chests, though. Skipping bosses is like skipping gaidens. Skipping characters is like, well, skipping characters.

Going to gaidens in Fire Emblem is, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, a tradition that we all follow without question or dispute about it (unless its something stupid like HHM 19xx). Now, I don't like the way you speak of the bosses as optional. Its not just he bosses that are optional; the whole dungeon you need to slog through to get to them is optional as well. The only optional bosses I can think of that don't involve optional dungeons are Deathgaze (who I wouldn't bother wasting time with), some dragons, and the Atma/Ultima Buster in Kefka's Tower (who's only guarding a save point).