FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Interceptor]

im assuming dicken was a dark knight by the time chapter 12 rolled around, he wouldn;t have much of an issue. The enemies there do have around 22-27 attack (excluding the paladins) which really is pretty unimpressive.

I know that, but I'm not here to wipe his nose for him, especially when he's making elementary dumbshit mistakes all over the place.

Yeah, a couple Silver Lance Paladins. That doesn't represent the majority of the enemies here.

There are also several Knights with Steel that hit pretty hard.

Anyway, as I said, once we establish that Ricken can actually "tank", how about we compare what he does to what Nowi can do here? For example, tanking:

10 Cavaliers

5 Knights

1 Bow Knight

1 Silver Lance Paladin

And ORKO'ing about 80% of them. You know, just for grins, since that wipes out a huge portion of the Rout requirement for this map, and let you use the rest of your army for whatever the eff you want here.

[PKL]

Chapter 5: a wyvern kill, maybe the closest myrmidon to Ricken/Maribelle. Level 4.20 He can get another kill but let's sandbag him.

Paralogue 2: 2HKOs Fighters here, same with archers, can get around 4 kills in the 5-7 turns you take here. He's like Level 5 now.

Chapter 6: Chips, can double dark mages with an Avatar support/can help Avatar ORKO stuff if her mag isn't up to snuff. Can get 1 or 2 kills here in 3-4 turns. 6.00 (chip)

Chapter 7: If you're seriously using him, an Elwind forge is handy OR a mag tonic + a mag pair up from maribelle. Can OHKO Wyverns so we'll assume he gets 2 wyverns in 2 turns. 6.60

Paralogue 3: There's pegasus that he can elwind, armors that he can ORKO, etc. Usually this map takes around 2 (with the correct team) to 4 turns. Let's assume he gets 2 armors and a random enemy. 7.50

In Chapter 8, depending on whether Avatar is peg or not, he can carry Tactician Avatar through the desert to help with the clear and get some kills of his own while doing so (the dark mages). Let's assume he gets 4 kills and then switches to Avatar for the rest. 8.70

Chapter 9: wyverns, can kill at least one or 2 of them, with a def tonic and Gregor, he's not very likely to be 2HKO'd. Let's assume he gets 2 of them. 9.30

Paralogue 4: ward him and res tonic him and give him NOWAI's lunch area. 4 kills. He's likely Level 10 now.

Chapter 10: Since the enemies here suck, let's assume he gets 3 of them. (Possible because he's not 3HKO'd iirc and concoction and healing). He's now Level 11.

Chapter 11: Promote to Dark Knight/Sage.

Sage: 11/1 HP 32 Mag 19 Spd 13 Def 12 Res 9

Dark Knight: 11/1 HP 37 Mag 17 Spd 11 Def 17 Res 9

With spd and def tonic:

Sage 15 spd 14 def

Dark Knight 13 spd 19 def

Let's put him in Dark Knight.

Apply a ward and maybe a res tonic, and he can take a few mage kills, if he's Dark Knight, he can take the Hero portion easily. I don't remember how much res hp the hero has, but I remember he didn't double Ricken due to support and he could 2HKO back with Elthunder. Assuming either, he gets like 5 kills as Dark Knight easily. 60 exp is a safe bet.

Chapter 12 enemies sport an unimpressive 22-27 Atk like Horace pointed out. 17 def + 2 from Tonic and 37 hp gets 5HKO'd from the toughest enemies (Silver Lance Paladins) unpaired. With a Gregor C Support or an Avatar support, he can double the cavaliers and 2HKO pretty much everything. He will have issues vs the Paladins due to their high res and he can't double them though. But assuming he tanks a few knights and cavaliers and ORKOs them, he can get like 2 levels (1.60 already) even as a promoted unit easily. Which puts his def and spd at like 1 more point. Then comes Henry and let's take a look at them:

Level 11/3 Dark Knight HP 39 Str 11 Mag 18 Skl 15 Spd 12 Lck 18 Def 17 Res 9

Level 12/1 Dark Knight HP 36 Str 9 Mag 16 Skl 19 Spd 11 Lck 10 Def 18 Res 6

He's not that hard to train and with the right resources, can be a nice unit. Dark Knight is an amazing class, who doesn't like 8 move, bulk and ORKO'ing by hitting res? He's dependent on tonics and the right supports, but there's enough money and we shouldn't penalize units for being used the right way.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Peekayell

[Chiki]

My argument is that Nowi's durability is overkill. It is not necessary to efficiently clear chapters. Mage Ricken getting 4HKOed is more than enough to complete this chapter efficiently.

My showing of Mage Ricken's durability was to show that even Mages in this game can be perfectly durable. The point of the example was to show that durability in this game is not important. We know full well that any promoted unit in this chapter is not going to have durability issues. Nowi's durability is overkill. Is this clear enough for you to understand?

Anyway, Nowi has around 24 might when this chapter comes around, at level 7. She can't one round the knights who have 13 def and 38 hp. Nor can she one round the cavaliers who have 35 HP and 10 def. It's a little hard for Gregor to get a reliable support with Nowi in the space of around 4 chapters before 12, one of which is a boss rush chapter which can be cleared in a couple turns.

You've attempted to lie twice so far: you lied to me about the Paladins (ignoring that there's only two or three of them) and you lied to me about Nowi being able to one round those enemies. That's nothing more than sophistry.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

Level 11/3 Dark Knight HP 39 Str 11 Mag 18 Skl 15 Spd 12 Lck 18 Def 17 Res 9

Level 12/1 Dark Knight HP 36 Str 9 Mag 16 Skl 19 Spd 11 Lck 10 Def 18 Res 6

He's not that hard to train and with the right resources, can be a nice unit. Dark Knight is an amazing class, who doesn't like 8 move, bulk and ORKO'ing by hitting res? He's dependent on tonics and the right supports, but there's enough money and we shouldn't penalize units for being used the right way.

I don't like your Elwind forge, but other than that, you are eating the seed corn. Forcing an early promotion upon him so that he can tank a handful of mounts, knocks multiple useful levels worth of growth off of his potential. What is Ricken even doing in Ch17, for example? An early promotion to deal with the last of the unpromoted enemies is just going to make him a leper later on.

I'd doubt that this is the best way to use him (it's just the best way to use him to sandbag a Manakete).

My showing of Mage Ricken's durability was to show that even Mages in this game can be perfectly durable.

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. What's the purpose of the Kellam support in this showing?

Nowi's durability is overkill. Is this clear enough for you to understand?

Nowi's "overkill" durability allows her to tank 17 guys and remove half of a Rout map from your having to worry about it. If something is overkill, doesn't that mean that it shouldn't afford you any extra options?

Anyway, Nowi has around 24 might when this chapter comes around, at level 7.

Is seven the new fifteen? How is it that she only gains four levels? I think that perhaps you don't know how to use her at all. We can have a discussion when you're able to meaningfully participate in one. Edited May 31, 2013 by Interceptor

[General Horace]

even at level 15 nowi fails to orko knights with strength tonic and b gregor (or A gregor if you're picky) and fails to double cavaliers, its not exactly a performance for the ages. Level 15 is still too high in my opinion, but again level 7 is too low, so I don't really know what to think anymore.

[Chiki]

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. What's the purpose of the Kellam support in this showing?

Erm, did you not read the thing you quoted?

My showing of Mage Ricken's durability was to show that even Mages in this game can be perfectly durable.

Is seven the new fifteen? How is it that she only gains four levels? I think that perhaps you don't know how to use her at all. We can have a discussion when you're able to meaningfully participate in one.

Sorry, I thought Nowi started at level 1. The stats are exactly the same because of my mistake. She's at level 10 instead, then, but the level makes no difference because the stats are the same. The calculations are the same. I gave her 7 levels to grow.

Anyway, it's worth noting that Nowi can't ORKO anyone in Chapter 12 even with a B Gregor support. Nowi gets +5 speed bonus from Gregor, 2 from the Dragonstone, and around 4 from 7 level ups. That means she has 11 speed. 11 + 3 (her base speed) = 14. Cavaliers in that chapter have 12 speed. You need 17 speed to double them. Nowi needs at least 5 more level ups to double them, and she won't be anywhere above level 10 or 11 by the time Chapter 12 comes.

I'm sorry, but the level of sophistry you're showing in this debate is appalling. All of the facts you presented have been nothing more than lies. It's one thing to make honest mistakes and another thing to lie. I'm just going to ignore list you.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

even at level 15 nowi fails to orko knights with strength tonic and b gregor (or A gregor if you're picky) and fails to double cavaliers, its not exactly a performance for the ages. Level 15 is still too high in my opinion, but again level 7 is too low, so I don't really know what to think anymore.

A-rank Gregor is not reasonable for Ch12, but B-rank is fine. N.O.W.I. is something like 67% ORKO on Knights thanks to Gregor Dual Strikes, and a tonic gets her doubling the Cavaliers if she's a bit screwed. Edited May 31, 2013 by Interceptor

[General Horace]

A-rank Gregor is not reasonable for Ch12, but B-rank is fine. N.O.W.I. is something like 67% ORKO on Knights thanks to Gregor Dual Strikes, and a tonic gets her doubling the Cavaliers if she's a bit screwed.

Yeah, I fudged the math on the speed, you're right there.

[Chiki]

Nowi doesn't have enough speed even with the Tonic. A Nowi with 8 level ups (level 11) is going to have exactly 4 extra speed from level ups. That means she has 7 speed not including any bonuses. With the Dragonstone, that goes up to 9. Tonic brings it up to 11. Gregor brings it up to 16. Cavaliers have 12 speed in that chapter, some 13. Nowi needs 17 speed to double some of them.

Assume Gregor has 16 strength after promotion and one strength level, 18 with a Tonic. Let's say he's using the Steel Sword, which has 26 might. That means he has 16 damage on the cavaliers and 13 damage on the knights. Nowi can't ORKO any of the cavaliers as Gregor can't kill them after a hit from Nowi. Not even with a forged Steel Sword.

With 2 dual strikes (unreliable) they can ORKO a knight. But that's the only thing they can ORKO there.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Redwall]

Don't they all have 13 Spd? Unless my source is wrong, which it probably is.

It would seem from the playlogs I've read that Nowi tends to be at a noticeably higher level (~15 or so).

[Chiki]

One cavalier in that vid that I saw had 12 speed. It tends to vary a lot.

Were those efficient playlogs? If Nowi gets 2 level ups in 8, 2 in 9 (sand), 1 in 10 and 3 in 11, that's around 8 level ups. It seems a little hard for me to believe she can gain 12.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

Erm, did you not read the thing you quoted?

It seems that you haven't realized yet that Kellam doesn't support with Ricken.

Sorry, I thought Nowi started at level 1. The stats are exactly the same because of my mistake. She's at level 10 instead, then, but the level makes no difference because the stats are the same. The calculations are the same. I gave her 7 levels to grow.

This is your third dumb mistake in a single afternoon. Hopefully this lends insight into why I am barely paying attention to your bleating.

Anyway, it's worth noting that Nowi can't ORKO anyone in Chapter 12 even with a B Gregor support. Nowi gets +5 speed bonus from Gregor, 2 from the Dragonstone, and around 4 from 7 level ups. That means she has 11 speed. 11 + 3 (her base speed) = 14. Cavaliers in that chapter have 12 speed. You need 17 speed to double them. Nowi needs at least 5 more level ups to double them, and she won't be anywhere above level 10 or 11 by the time Chapter 12 comes.

Nowi has a shot of getting A-rank Gregor by the end of Ch11, actually, it's just not something I'd personally guarantee forever, because it still requires building a support every two chapters, and our data on support points is still rather raw at the moment.

And though it does rob me of watching you make a fool of yourself, I'll just tell you in advance that NowixGregor builds to C immediately after Chapter 8 if they are being used to finish the the map (which they should be). Her contribution in Ch9 is limited (function of the layout), but she can Manakete-mode Paralogue 4 (results in B-rank), and put together two high-combat performances in Ch10 and Ch11 for an A-rank, just in time for Ch12.

Secondly, your levels are too low for Nowi. She can be as high as level 15-16 on the outside. Nowi is an unpromoted unit that gets a lot of double-dip EXP during the time where she is not doubling. It does require that you know what you are doing, naturally, but that's something we assume the tier player is capable of executing.

I'm sorry [...]

Apology accepted; no hard feelings.

I don't know what kind of kindergarteners you are used to arguing with, but this soldier is not the type to be impressed by your ability to regurgitate vocabulary words, or be distracted by your Gatling gun of logical errors/fallacies.

[Constable Reggie]

I'm sorry, but the level of sophistry you're showing in this debate is appalling. All of the facts you presented have been nothing more than lies. It's one thing to make honest mistakes and another thing to lie. I'm just going to ignore list you.

pot, meet kettle

Assuming your bare minimum number of levels for Nowi, 8 (or was it even 6 or 7, you keep changing it), Nowi has 12 base, 8 from dragonstone, 5 from levels, 1 from Gregor, and 2 from str tonic. 28 atk against 38 hp/14 def armors is enough for a orko with a Gregor dual attack. Interceptor was right. In fact, the proc chance is more like 72%

And let's be honest, assuming only 8 levels for Nowi is pathetic at best. You also conveniently ignore paralogue 4.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

Chapter 9 has sand. Chapter 10 is a boss rush chapter. Nowi does not have much of a chance in either of those chapters to get experience and a Gregor support without favoritism and going slowly.

Let's say Nowi gets 10 levels, and the average cavalier has 13 speed. Nowi has 8 speed at level 13, 10 with a Tonic, 15 with Gregor, and 2 from the Dragonstone. Still not enough to double cavaliers, as the AS calculation in this game requires 5 speed, not 4.

It'd take a lot of favoritism to even get Nowi 10 levels by the time Chapter 12 comes up. Let's revise my calculations:

Chapter 8: She can get 2 level ups here. She can't double anything and she's pretty fragile here. Gregor is not a good pair up partner for her here, because she simply can't double anyone. Not efficient.

Chapter 9: Sand. Nowi won't be doing much here, if at all. One level up. She also won't be doubling anyone.

Paralogue 4: I'll go ahead and give Nowi two level ups here. Maybe 3.

Chapter 10: A boss rush chapter which is pretty quick. Nowi doesn't have much of a chance to gain experience here, either. One level.

Chapter 11: She has a good chance to gain experience here. 3 levels.

Total: 9-10 level ups. Anything else requires favoritism. This isn't even assuming LTC, in which she'd gain 2 level ups at best.

Why is babying Nowi like this justified when everyone can perform well with the right pair ups and Tonics? She isn't FE9 Marcia or FE10 Jill. This amount of babying and resource-giving isn't justified. What does Nowi give you back that other units can't, other than overkill durability? High move? Nope. Nothing. It's a waste of time and effort.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[PKL]

@ Interceptor- Why not? Forges are an option that's there and there's a LOT of money in this game. It seems I was wrong with averages due to forgetting Ricken's base level is 3 not 1. Anyways...Even if Ricken promotes early, it won't hinder him much later on. The fastest enemies around are in Chapter 17. With 22 spd heroes (iirc) and 24 spd valkyries. Since Ricken can take care of himself as a Dark Knight more than as a mage, he will be able to get lots of kills and stay functional. With A Gregor support Ricken gets +6 spd +4 def from Gregor, his HP growth is 100 and his def growth is 40. His durability will only get better. If he doesn't promote to Dark Knight, he can still do fine and get some kills of his own with 28 HP and 10 def. With a tonic thats 12 def and with a Gregor support, it's 15 def. Enough to at least be 4HKO'd by most of the enemies. Ricken can also go Sage to abuse Rescue and get lots of levels with it by spamming it, but that's another story.

[Constable Reggie]

It's interesting now that Paralogue 4's included, the assumed number of levels gained in chapter 9 conveniently goes from two to one (with "if at all", too).

Edited May 31, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[PKL]

Well, despite the conveniency, 1 level is kind to Nowi in Chapter 9 considering the layout. We're not assuming babying here.

[Chiki]

Only a troll would complain about one's revising an argument, lol.

Let's revise my calculations:

Anyway, I don't think durability matters in a chapter where Mage Ricken gets 4HKOed by enemy units. Nowi's main advantage for the entire game is nothing but meaningless. People just get aroused at the thought of enemy units tinking your units, when it's not important for the sake of efficiency.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

babying Nowi

Nowi contributes to the clear in all of her training chapters. She's not Meg.

overkill durability

So overkill, that she kills more than a third of the maximum possible enemy units that can be present on the screen at the same time, in one Turn. The reason that Ricken can't get punched in the face 17 times and still survive, is clearly because he just doesn't feel like it.

@ Interceptor- Why not? Forges are an option that's there and there's a LOT of money in this game.

There isn't a lot of money in the earlygame. That's the problem that I have with the forge. Bullions don't really rain out of the sky until you get going. But it's not a deal-breaker.

It seems I was wrong with averages due to forgetting Ricken's base level is 3 not 1. Anyways...Even if Ricken promotes early, it won't hinder him much later on. The fastest enemies around are in Chapter 17. With 22 spd heroes (iirc) and 24 spd valkyries. Since Ricken can take care of himself as a Dark Knight more than as a mage, he will be able to get lots of kills and stay functional. With A Gregor support Ricken gets +6 spd +4 def from Gregor, his HP growth is 100 and his def growth is 40. His durability will only get better. If he doesn't promote to Dark Knight, he can still do fine and get some kills of his own with 28 HP and 10 def. With a tonic thats 12 def and with a Gregor support, it's 15 def. Enough to at least be 4HKO'd by most of the enemies. Ricken can also go Sage to abuse Rescue and get lots of levels with it by spamming it, but that's another story.

What's useful about this at all? He's a leper once promoted enemies show up, stuck staff-botting (after ANOTHER reclass) with crummy offense because you sealed away his growth level. Nowi eventually starts doubling again, because she never stops getting fast 50% SPD level-ups; once she hits level 30 (same EXP class as 11/10 Ricken), she reclasses back into Manakete again and levels-up like a level 15 unpromoted unit. Edited May 31, 2013 by Interceptor

[Constable Reggie]

I'm sorry, but the level of sophistry you're showing in this debate is appalling. All of the facts you presented have been nothing more than lies. It's one thing to make honest mistakes and another thing to lie. I'm just going to ignore list you.

What's the implied turncount for chapter 9? Because if it's even slightly higher than 4 turns + a player phase, then I can definitely see Nowi getting 2 levels.

[Redwall]

I'm not gonna argue Nowi under Ricken (mostly because this isn't a LTC tier list), but I am gonna say that Nowi is overrated.

Just looking at C12, assuming we've slowed down enough to give Nowi twelve level-ups, she will have:

3 Spd (base)

2 Spd (stone)

5 Spd (Gregor)

2 Spd (tonic)

which amounts to 12 Spd before growths. Cavs have 13 Spd, so Nowi needs 6 more points of Spd, which is conveniently what she would get on average.

But because we're looking at a very small sample size of levels, the deviations will be large; using averages won't tell us the whole story.

The probability of getting exactly 6 Spd levels out of 12 at 50% growth is:

C(12,6)*(0.5)^12 = 0.22557

And the probability of getting at least 6 Spd levels out of 12 is then

0.22557 + (1 - 0.22557)/2 = 61.28%

But 61.28% is kind of bad; that's like a Hypnosis in Pokemon. Meanwhile, giving Nowi those C12 kills takes them away from better combatants like Sumia and Cordelia, who can contribute to a two-turn clear with no sweat. Meanwhile, Nowi needs more time to clean up.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Redwall

[Chiki]

I thought it was common sense to use averages for the sake of simplicity, but that makes more sense. I guess we need to ditch the averages system.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

I thought it was common sense to use averages for the sake of simplicity, but that makes more sense. I guess we need to ditch the averages system.

For the sake of anyone reading this who is ignorant of years of tier list debating history, like Chiki, we already take this into account in more or less precisely the same way that Redwall detailed.

I'm not gonna argue Nowi under Ricken (mostly because this isn't a LTC tier list), but I am gonna say that Nowi is overrated.

Perhaps she is over-rated (I'd disagree), but not as the result of your Ch12 tear-down.

If we're arguing over details, surely we need to consider the possibility that Nowi actually has +6 SPD from Gregor, from an A-rank support. Four chapters, two ranks, lots of combat, completely plausible; especially since this pair in particular seems to be on on the the "accelerated" support path. Who else gets a C-rank after one chapter of combat?

But assuming she whiffs the mark anyway, what's the result? One of two things:

1. She 2RKO's some of the Cavaliers. The net effect on the clear is close to zero, since all of them will die on the next Enemy Phase anyway, and there's a good chance she gets the needed SPD during the chapter regardless (I got about six and a half levels in Ch12 when I used her).
2. You give her the Ch11 Speedwing. Since other units can use this booster, this is a negative hit for her, although it's a negative hit that only comes <40% of the time, and it has benefits that go far beyond just this map.

Some people won't understand the nuanced position here, but hopefully this makes sense to everyone else.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Interceptor

[General Horace]

Using the speedwing implies you wait for it to show up as well.

[Interceptor]

Using the speedwing implies you wait for it to show up as well.

I agree that we should not be waiting for the Speedwing, but we already dealt with this one earlier in the thread: SDS says we're sticking around for it. So that's the condition under which I'll argue.