BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) I'm hearing Dark Knights and Tricksters for ~C-Rank. Any objections? EDIT: I'm gonna go ahead and add the following to the list based on my general impressions: - Falcoknight: (untiered) -> A-rank - Darkflier: (untiered) -> A-rank - Valkyrie: (untiered) -> A-rank - Dancer (untiered) -> A-rank - Berserker: (untiered) -> B-rank - Sniper: (untiered) -> B-rank - Dark Knight: (untiered) -> C-rank - Sorcerer (untiered) -> C-rank - Manakete (untiered) -> C-rank - Trickster: (untiered) -> Limbo between C and D - Warrior (untiered) -> D-rank - War Monk: (untiered) -> D-rank - Bow Knight: (untiered) -> D-rank I'd like to get some more discussion on the Trickster before we definitively tier it. Feel free to discuss any changes/additions to my choices. I'm trying to be impartial here, but again, I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject. Edited March 13, 2014 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuvarkz Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Trickster should get a D. Dread Fighter far outclasses in damage, Falco in healing, Bride in both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) So Trickster is basically a worse Bride-- especially if the Bride gets the Trickster's skills that make it relevant. Incidentally, Acrobat DOES seem like a decent support ability, especially when paired with Deliverer. EDIT: Are any classes outside of Villager and Taguel considered to be complete garbage-tier? I'm assuming practically everyone else is at least sort of usable (IE, D-tier). Edited March 13, 2014 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Sniper in B just doesn't sit well with me - what the hell do they have going for them that other bow classes don't, besides longbows??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PM ME MARIANNE ART Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I think Warrior and BK should be at least a tier higher. They're similar to snipers, but Warriors are really strong, and BKs give movement. And I think Hero and Assassin should probably be B rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Sniper in B just doesn't sit well with me - what the hell do they have going for them that other bow classes don't, besides longbows??? You pretty much hit the nail on the head. General consensus is that that's their niche, and it's worth using them for. I've heard enough people defending it to warrant it going in B, but if you want to make a case for C, I'm all ears. I think Warrior and BK should be at least a tier higher. They're similar to snipers, but Warriors are really strong, and BKs give movement. And I think Hero and Assassin should probably be B rank. Sounds good to me. I knew Heroes were pretty good but wasn't sure where to put them, and I've actually heard almost nothing at all about Assassins. I'll put Warrior and BK in Limbo with the Trickster for now. - Hero: (untiered) -> B-rank - Assassin: (untiered) -> B-rank - Warrior: D-rank -> Limbo (C/D) - Bow Knight: D-rank -> Limbo (C/D) - Trickster: Limbo -> D-rank War Monks and Tricksters seem pretty similar; TBH I can't see them functioning much differently than War Monks beyond their skill set. EDIT: I'm gonna go ahead and add the following in as well: - Grandmaster: (untiered) -> C-rank bcuz they're pretty much same as Dark Knights, right? - Dreadfighter: (untiered) -> B-rank) - Bride: (untiered) -> B-rank) Still untiered: Greatlord, Paladin, Great Knight, General, Swordmaster, Wyvern Lord, Griffon Rider Edited March 13, 2014 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 You pretty much hit the nail on the head. General consensus is that that's their niche, and it's worth using them for. I've heard enough people defending it to warrant it going in B, but if you want to make a case for C, I'm all ears. Except the only argument I've seen in Sniper's favor is as situational as situational can get. Also, bow-lock, enemy phase generally being more important, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Except the only argument I've seen in Sniper's favor is as situational as situational can get. Also, bow-lock, enemy phase generally being more important, etc etc. I was assuming that the general use is to have a Galeforce Sniper paired with a VV tank or something that you can switch with after sniping somebody. (Also, some can get Counter to punish things that attack them close-range, but I don't know how effective that's considered to be.) There's also that bows aren't affected by the weapon triangle, and preventing an enemy counterattack is pretty good if you have the activatable abilities to secure a kill; presumably, it can be used to counter the VV strategy and stuff. But, I'm just speaking out of theory here, I haven't actually done any competitive stuff. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, then. - Sniper: B rank -> Limbo (B/C) I'm not dropping it all the way to C unless we get enough call for it. PS: Gonna try to keep out of the discussions from now on, especially since I really don't know what I'm talking about... I'll try to stick to being the mediator and thread custodian instead. Edited March 13, 2014 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PM ME MARIANNE ART Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 [spoiler=My Other Thoughts]Snipers should stay B since they're amazing for support because of their hitting fliers on their weakpoint no matter the aegis+. Also just having overall good stats. I'd also like to go for Tricksters and War Monks both for D. Their only real purpose is for staffing and there're many, many classes that can do that better. Paladin should be C or B, for good weapons and pair up bonuses. Wyvern Lord could probably go C if only just for their high movement and strength. Griffon Riders can go to D for mediocre stats and axelock. Basically just being shitty berserkers. General for D because of movement and crap stats, and (As much as it pains me to say so) Swordmasters could go to D or C. Swordlock and low strength really sucks, but their +10 speed is pretty bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 [spoiler=My Other Thoughts]Snipers should stay B since they're amazing for support because of their hitting fliers on their weakpoint no matter the aegis+. Also just having overall good stats. I'd also like to go for Tricksters and War Monks both for D. Their only real purpose is for staffing and there're many, many classes that can do that better. Paladin should be C or B, for good weapons and pair up bonuses. Wyvern Lord could probably go C if only just for their high movement and strength. Griffon Riders can go to D for mediocre stats and axelock. Basically just being shitty berserkers. General for D because of movement and crap stats, and (As much as it pains me to say so) Swordmasters could go to D or C. Swordlock and low strength really sucks, but their +10 speed is pretty bro. Bold: My counter to that is, is that really so special when there are other classes that can do that?? No. Warriors can do the same, only they have more Strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Tricksters: While they may give Mov+1 and Acrobat which work well on staffbots, all of your Staffbots should be Spotpass/DLC units anyway so you can just put those on a Valkyrie instead, and Trickster is useless again. If Trickster is rated highly, it should be because of its support boosts, not staff access (all magical offensive stats and nothing else). This applies to all Staffbots in general: Monks/Tricksters/Brides/whatever are not substitutes for Valkyries and Falcos because all Staffbots should be Logbook units for optimal performance because Boots, and logbook units have all classes so there's no need for substitutes. In game it's nice to have your staffbots do double duty as combat units (or more likely have your combat units do double duty as staffbots) but this thread is about Postgame now. Edited March 13, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Except the only argument I've seen in Sniper's favor is as situational as situational can get. Also, bow-lock, enemy phase generally being more important, etc etc. We've had this argument before. If you're going to start it again, bring up new points. The only thing that Snipers have is longbows to you, correct? You neglected to mention the higher skill cap. Having ~+5 skill against most other classes is very useful for a unit you want to lead. The general reason for using braves is to kill before the enemy can attack back, correct? There are the cases (Helswath 'Zerker, Anna, etc.) where you know that you're not going to ORKO them, and it would be much better to attack with the Double Bow. Also, lol enemy phase being important. If that's what your mind is set on, you're never going to get any use out of Aggressor, one of the most useful skills in Apotheosis. The reason why GF/Agg is so important is because most of the battle is conducted on the player phase. EP should be used to draw enemies in, not to attack. The EP thing might be the case for ingame, but this topic is now strictly postgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) We've had this argument before. If you're going to start it again, bring up new points. The only thing that Snipers have is longbows to you, correct? You neglected to mention the higher skill cap. Having ~+5 skill against most other classes is very useful for a unit you want to lead. The general reason for using braves is to kill before the enemy can attack back, correct? There are the cases (Helswath 'Zerker, Anna, etc.) where you know that you're not going to ORKO them, and it would be much better to attack with the Double Bow. Also, lol enemy phase being important. If that's what your mind is set on, you're never going to get any use out of Aggressor, one of the most useful skills in Apotheosis. The reason why GF/Agg is so important is because most of the battle is conducted on the player phase. EP should be used to draw enemies in, not to attack. The EP thing might be the case for ingame, but this topic is now strictly postgame. What, Apotheosis is all this is about?! Because you sure are making it sound like that... and if that IS the case, the tier list might as well be for Apo. Edited March 13, 2014 by Levant Caprice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Bold: My counter to that is, is that really so special when there are other classes that can do that?? No. Warriors can do the same, only they have more Strength. But again, you're overlooking the fact that Warriors/Assassins/any other bow unit other than snipers can't utilize Longbows / the Double Bow to prevent counterattacks. If the flier in question has VV, then other bow units are at a distinct disadvantage, no? Besides, all Bow units are unable to counterattack after killing something with a bow, unless they have Galeforce to switch to a partner unit or different weapon. That was one weakness of the Sniper you pointed out that applies to the others as well, and the Sniper is almost as capable of rectifying it as the others simply via Galeforce and Pair up. Edited March 13, 2014 by BANRYU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) What, Apotheosis is all this is about?! Because you sure are making it sound like that... and if that IS the case, the tier list might as well be for Apo. ... It kind of is. I see no other postgame situation where any of this would even matter. You could send a bunch of LB capped War Monks/Clerics and Tricksters armed with hand axes and Levin Swords, and with a bunch of healing skills, straight into any other DLC and it wouldn't matter. They'd destroy it. Edited March 13, 2014 by Gaius217 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) But again, you're overlooking the fact that Warriors/Assassins/any other bow unit other than snipers can't utilize Longbows / the Double Bow to prevent counterattacks. If the flier in question has VV, then other bow units are at a distinct disadvantage, no? Besides, all Bow units are unable to counterattack after killing something with a bow, unless they have Galeforce to switch to a partner unit or different weapon. That was one weakness of the Sniper you pointed out that applies to the others as well, and the Sniper is almost as capable of rectifying it as the others simply via Galeforce and Pair up. And there we go with the theory emblem... There aren't any fliers set up like that in the game to my knowledge, barring Streetpass. So what's with attempting to make an argument based on a situation that doesn't even crop up ingame??? Edited March 13, 2014 by Levant Caprice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 I never said streetpass wasn't a factor. Should I clarify that in the OP? The postgame tiers were for both DLC challenge maps and streetpass stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I never said streetpass wasn't a factor. Should I clarify that in the OP? The postgame tiers were for both DLC challenge maps and streetpass stuff. Streetpass is a joke, so no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 You can't have Vantage+ in Streetpass and if a Flier there got bowed, they'd be dead long before they could do anything about it. Said Monks might have accuracy issues against Axebreaker Swordguys in Lunatic RaR3. Maybe. You'd also need a little more offense if you're trying to protect all the npcs in RaR1/2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I'd like to add Hero to the list of A-Ranks. One of the best physical classes with High Skl, and good Str/spd. It also isn't locked to a single weapon type, so it can better use the weapon triangle to its advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuvarkz Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 B-ranks, perhaps? Dread Fighter tends to outperform hero due to same STR caps, only -1 SPD, and +8 mag for magical weapons use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 DF takes a -6 skill hit, which I'm not really fond of... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Dread Fighter also doesn't give +Skl from a pairup, so you're actually losing out on 11 Skl between the two units. That hurts if you're going for high DS rates... However they do give +Str/Mag which is nice if they're supporting an Ignis unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANRYU Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 Does the difference in skill make Heroes significantly better than Dreadfighters? If not, I'm thinking probably B-rank for both. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Skill is one of the game's more important stats. It's very important in both procing dual strikes and procs, and running a +6% on a proc is considerably high. If you're running 2 procs, it'll be an even larger cap. imo Hero-A rank, DF-B rank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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