Regarding the canon of their own games, who is the most powerful Smash character?

[Mighty Kamina]

I don't really have any objects to this list. Maybe move Ganondorf up a spot or two, but besides that I'm good.

Kirby is nigh indestructible, and (Xenoblade Spoilers):

Shulk's Monado can alter the fabric of reality, and even create new universes. Also, it's form isn't set, it just takes the form that would be most appealing to it's wielder. (I believe Zanza or Meyneth mention this)

Edited January 22, 2015 by Monado Boy

[euklyd]

I would move Ganondorf up one (1) tier. He's not literally god / omnipotent / whatever like you people are heavily implying Shulk is, but he's still kind of obscene, for reasons Knight and CSteve mentioned; he definitely qualifies as god-like (and in fact Zant literally worships him as a god, etc.).

Definitely above Link (unless we're ranking literally everyone who touched a Triforce equally); while he's got a poor Link matchup, he's got much better matchups overall.

also Robin as Grima would be relatively high imo

...except that in-game Grima is a total chump

[BrightBow]

I find Pit being below Palutena a bit odd. If she was more powerful then he is, then she would get more directly involved in the battles against Medusa and Hades. Sure, she grants him some special abilities but Pit does just fine with just his weapons and natural abilities. And Viridi specifically stated that they couldn't stop Hades without Pit. Apparently one angel can do what the combined powers of her and Palutena can't achieve.

And of course Pit did in fact fight Palutena before and she is so weak that the main challenge of the fight is to avoid killing her. Sure, he technically never beat her since killing her is a failure condition but it does show that if Pit would actually try, he could beat her without breaking a sweat.

I guess one could also consider that Palutena got her ass kicked by her own food. I mean, have you seen what Pit does to food in Uprising? He eats it. Even floor icecream. He just swallows it all in one gulp. Yeah, no comparison. But given that Pit didn't do that much better against Thanatos, it's probably best to ignore the shorts.

Edited January 22, 2015 by BrightBow

[Anacybele]

Not sure on Marth and Lucina, but I'll definitely put Robin higher than Ike.

Lolwut? When we're talking characters having canon stuff, Ike has a healing Aether and a blessed, unbreakable sword than can send an extremely fast shockwave, faster than any of Robin's magic.

[Kon]

Robin is literally Grima, one of the great dragon "gods". In canon, he could only be killed by himself, as not even Naga had the strength to kill him. And on top of that, Robin is a brilliant tactician, and can also wield any and every holy weapon that is not Chrom/Lucy locked, including Ike's Ragnell.

It also took less than a second for Robin to skewer Chrom with one of their bolts, so ~o3o~

Edited January 22, 2015 by Kon

[Anacybele]

Uh, Robin can be killed by others. He can lose all his HP in a battle and die just like anyone else. He gives a gameover if that happens. And Robin can only wield a Ragnell that has lost it's blessing and is all banged up if he used it.

Also, Robin is not literally Grima, he's only the dragon's vessel.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Anacybele

[Kon]

This is from canon itself, not the gameplay. Otherwise Robin absolutely wrecks Ike even in terms of sheer stat, with or without Limit Break. Seriously, As just a Grandmaster they match Ike's "legendary" strength without Limit Break with Strength as a flaw.

EDIT:

Validar

You carry my blood—the blood of the fell dragon. His soul slumbers within you. And now the time has come to awaken you both!

Robin
...Wh-what?! I'M Grima? I'M the fell dragon?!

Yup

Edited January 22, 2015 by Kon

[Angelic Phoenix]

I would say Marth is pretty high in the Tier list like Robin. (Not exactly Shulk, but still powerful.) If I remember correctly, the Falchion in FE1 pretty much made Marth invincible to any direct damage from enemies that weren't mamkutes (I think that's what they're called). Plus, his sword can regenerate HP after every turn and was the only thing (besides Tiki) that could really do serious damage to Medeus or the Earth Dragons. Not to mention that the Shield of Seals sealed the Earth Dragons off the maps before you even began your first turn in the later maps of FE3. This also stays true to FE12.

By the way, Marth never promotes and his level cap is 30. (The level cap is 20 in the original.) I think that makes him the only Lord that doesn't promote (required/forced or otherwise) to beat the Final Boss.

Edited January 22, 2015 by VoltStrike

[Anacybele]

This is from canon itself, not the gameplay. Otherwise Robin absolutely wrecks Ike even in terms of sheer stat, with or without Limit Break. Seriously, As just a Grandmaster they match Ike's "legendary" strength without Limit Break with Strength as a flaw.

EDIT:

Yup

Nope. Notice how Validar says "you both" not "you." Robin isn't saying that he's literally Grima. Grima possesses him, that is all. Robin doesn't know how to use that power anyway since he didn't even know he had it.

Using stat caps as an argument isn't fair due to how they vary in each game. If we go by stat caps, then Lissa could probably take on a dragon laguz and that makes no sense.

[kingddd]

I find Pit being below Palutena a bit odd. If she was more powerful then he is, then she would get more directly involved in the battles against Medusa and Hades. Sure, she grants him some special abilities but Pit does just fine with just his weapons and natural abilities. And Viridi specifically stated that they couldn't stop Hades without Pit. Apparently one angel can do what the combined powers of her and Palutena can't achieve.

And of course Pit did in fact fight Palutena before and she is so weak that the main challenge of the fight is to avoid killing her. Sure, he technically never beat her since killing her is a failure condition but it does show that if Pit would actually try, he could beat her without breaking a sweat.

I guess one could also consider that Palutena got her ass kicked by her own food. I mean, have you seen what Pit does to food in Uprising? He eats it. Even floor icecream. He just swallows it all in one gulp. Yeah, no comparison. But given that Pit didn't do that much better against Thanatos, it's probably best to ignore the shorts.

Not to mention that you had to save her in the original game. She couldn't even handle Medusa and consequently turning her into a monster and banishing her into exile caused the entire incident in the original game to happen. Palutena is epitome of failed goddess.

[Arthis]

Everyone knows it's Luigi

and that Peach > Bowser

Edited January 22, 2015 by Arthis

[Jave]

Using stat caps as an argument isn't fair due to how they vary in each game. If we go by stat caps, then Lissa could probably take on a dragon laguz and that makes no sense.

Lissa could easily defeat a Dragon Laguz. I mean, everyone in FE10 can do so.

[Anacybele]

Lissa could easily defeat a Dragon Laguz. I mean, everyone in FE10 can do so.

...lolwut? Dragon laguz have the highest stats in the game. They're very VERY powerful. Especially Dheginsea. Not even Ike could have stats to enable him to defeat that guy alone. And realistically, Lissa would not be able to defeat one, regardless of her stats.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Anacybele

[Jave]

...lolwut? Dragon laguz have the highest stats in the game. They're very VERY powerful. Especially Dheginsea. Not even Ike could have stats to enable him to defeat that guy alone. And realistically, Lissa would not be able to defeat one, regardless of her stats.

Huh. I guess Marth IS higher than Ike then. Medeus is realistically more powerful than Dheginsea, and canonically Marth defeats Medeus himself.

[Ein]

Marth defeated Medeus with the help o his friends and allies. Why do peeps think the main character in a FE game is the only one that actually does anything while everyone else is twiddling their thumbs and just waiting for the Lord to beat the bad guy when the whole victory was a group effort. Kinda like how Ike needed the help of literally everyone who wasn't a statue and Yune to even finish the job and Marth wouldn't be the kind of person to take credit for his friend's efforts and sacrifices. As for Robin sure they could only actually end Grima once and for all if they off themselves, which is just super convenient and crap, but they didn't get there alone unless that whole everyone cheers you on while you are in a dark abyss of darkness didn't mean anything.

And besides, Kirby is the clear winner due to his own powers and the fact that he goes on a quest to save a slice of cake while beating up the mostly innocent wildlife and fauna and other dudes on the way.

[Knight]

Why are we using Robin's Grima form to judge him? He never becomes Grima in the game, an alternate reality version of him does and it's not like he has control over the power.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Why are we using Robin's Grima form to judge him? He never becomes Grima in the game, an alternate reality version of him does and it's not like he has control over the power.

pretty much this.

granted i'd still put robin up semi high, but no higher then the other FE reps, maybe marth or ike above them, idk.

glad to see we're all in agreeance over palutena being knocked down some pegs.

[Kon]

Nope. Notice how Validar says "you both" not "you." Robin isn't saying that he's literally Grima. Grima possesses him, that is all. Robin doesn't know how to use that power anyway since he didn't even know he had it.

Using stat caps as an argument isn't fair due to how they vary in each game. If we go by stat caps, then Lissa could probably take on a dragon laguz and that makes no sense.

Robin is Grima, though they cannot take his form unless they accepted their Godhood and took the offering from the Dragon's Table. Regardless of the state of their memory that fact remains the same. Even without Grima's form and strength Robin is still a tactical genius (as is stated countless times in canon) and has the strength to back up their tactics.

You're the one who brought up in-game scenarios like Robin being able to die when their hit points are lost. I was just pointing out how that was a bad argument to make due to the fact that it makes Robin as well as every other Awakening character trump Ike. Not to mention that that isn't the point of this topic in the first place.

Why are we using Robin's Grima form to judge him? He never becomes Grima in the game, an alternate reality version of him does and it's not like he has control over the power.

Because he is still Grima in canon. This is about the canon of their own games, right?

Though, even with all this power it doesn't place Robin at the top of the list, just above the other FE reps.

[BrightBow]

I don't see how Ike could even compare to the likes of Robin. I mean, if Robin is in anywhere comparable to Chrom then...

Well, let's put it this way: When Ike was a level 1 character, he awkwardly waved a wooden stick around. When Chrom was a level 1 character, he broke the castle wall of the Yllesean palace. Accidental, no less.

And while Ike as a low level character was just taking his first steps in the mercenary life, Chrom and Lucina pulled acrobatics that are comparable to the jump that Ike does to approach the Black Knight at the end of Radiant Dawn. That was when Ike was at the pinnacle of his natural power while Chrom and Lucina hadn't even begun to tap into theirs.

And Robin was fighting side by side with Chrom against Validar, so I think they are about equal.

Edited January 22, 2015 by BrightBow

[Anacybele]

Uh, why do the things that these characters did at level 1 matter at all?

Ike, at his maxed level, borrowed a goddess's power in order to defeat another goddess. Chrom, at his max level, could only put a dragon to sleep, even with some borrowed power of his own (from Naga). I'd think that the former is a bit more impressive.

And did NO ONE read what I said about FE lore saying that Ike was the mightiest hero of them all? This automatically puts him above Marth at least. Marth only defeated Medeus because of the Falchion, according to what I've read.

Because he is still Grima in canon. This is about the canon of their own games, right?

Because like Knight said, Robin doesn't actually ever succumb to Grima's power, and thus can never actually use it and cannot control it.

It looks like we're not going to come to an agreement on this. But I still think that Ike tops the FE list, with Robin and Marth next, then Lucina (Lucina just wouldn't have as much experience as Chrom or Robin, I think).

[Knight]

I don't see how Ike could even compare to the likes of Robin. I mean, if Robin is in anywhere comparable to Chrom then...

Well, let's put it this way: When Ike was a level 1 character, he awkwardly waved a wooden stick around. When Chrom was a level 1 character, he broke the castle wall of the Yllesean palace. Accidental, no less.

And while Ike as a low level character was just taking his first steps in the mercenary life, Chrom and Lucina pulled acrobatics that are comparable to the jump that Ike does to approach the Black Knight at the end of Radiant Dawn. That was when Ike was at the pinnacle of his natural power while Chrom and Lucina hadn't even begun to tap into theirs.

And Robin was fighting side by side with Chrom against Validar, so I think they are about equal.

Ike's journey is much longer than Chrom's, plus it was probably a weak wall, given how there are castles all over the Fire Emblem universe that can be busted by anyone with any weapon. Also Chrom and Lucina are never shown to have better acrobatic skills than what they pulled off and it's never stated that Ike wasn't able to pull off that stunt earlier. (Actually, PoR's Aether animation is also a pretty high jump as well IIRC)

Also Robin can't control Grima, he never uses its power and he probably would never figure out how to so Grima should not be considered for judging Robin.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Knight

[Anacybele]

Yeah, and Robin wouldn't even consider using Grima against his opponents, unless perhaps they were his enemy, but Ike, Marth, and Lucina obviously wouldn't be his enemies.

Good point about the wall thing too, can't believe I hadn't thought of that. :P

There are a few reasons Ike becomes as powerful as does, not counting the power he borrowed from Yune:

- He obviously trains and works out a lot, since he gains a bulky muscular physique and can not only wield a two-handed sword with one hand, but can throw it up in the air with one hand as well.

- He was taught by his father, who was pretty much the best swordsman in Tellius. Titania, and probably Stefan put the finishing touches on that training. Stefan likely helped Ike learn Aether since Ike gets an Occult Scroll from him, which gives Ike Aether. And as I said before, Aether gives Ike the ability to heal himself.

- He gets to wield a goddess-blessed sword that's unbreakable and has that extremely fast shockwave I mentioned.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Anacybele

[Jave]

Ok, then.

SS Tier
- Shulk
- Kirby

S Tier
- Rosalina
- Ganondorf

- Mewtwo
- Pit

- Palutena

A Tier
- Sonic
- Ness

- Lucas

- Zelda
- Mario
- Bowser
- Link / Toon Link
- Pac-Man
- Donkey Kong

- Luigi

B Tier

- Robin

- Samus / Zero Suit Samus

- Lucario

- Ike

- Marth

- Lucina

- Pikachu

- Mega Man

- Little Mac

C/D Tier

Everyone else probably goes here. Can't really think of many differences for all these characters, but we can give it a shot.

E Tier

Wii Fit Trainer (No, I don't think she's above Villager)

Edited January 22, 2015 by Jave

[riariadne]

Ganondorf almost certainly should be much higher, maybe even second or third on the list. I can't say I know terribly much about Kirby and he's probably not as powerful as Shulk in Xenoblade, but some comparisons could be made at certain heights of his power (the shining example would be when he's acquired the full Triforce in Link to the Past), which is saying something with how obscene Shulk's power gets. Certainly he's far more powerful than Ness or Mewtwo, which shouldn't even be in the question, and even though he's defeated multiple times his adversary is also extremely powerful (and probably should be higher, at least above Pit, but again I can't claim vast KI knowledge).

At his strongest, Ganondorf is all but a god. Even though Link wins against him, it's never an easy journey and he has to be defeated with specific weapons (some combination of the Master Sword, Silver Arrows, or Light arrows) and even STILL has to be hit in a weak spot (slashed in the mouth in Ocarina of Time, stabbed through the head in Wind Waker, impaled through his chest where he was already impaled by a sword of light- see a trend here?). It's also a testament to his prowess that he still has beaten Link (OOT third timeline), a character who is destined to defeat him, and a lot of his other losses are due to his arrogance and disbelief that anyone is close to his level, not a lack of strength. To my understanding from this thread, Palutena is not a terribly impressive god, and I'm not entirely sure how he matches up with Rosalina but that he competes with them says much. At the very least, it's definitely a misnomer for him to be in his current tier- regardless of which form he's in his power level is impressive, and at his highest strength he is almost almighty.

EDIT: Oh, boo. Beat me to it, I guess. If you're ranking Pokemon, however, Charizard is certainly above Pikachu- probably just under Lucario.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Reinfleche

[Anacybele]

...lol, now you think Mario, Luigi, and Bowser could defeat Robin, but you think Ike can't?