What to do about ISIS

[Blaze The Great]

Wait, ISIS is in Gaza? How did they mangae that? If it's true, then the IDF would certainly be a welcome addition to the anti ISIS coalition. Also, my Social Studies teacher said that the solution for peace might be Israel and Hamas fighting a common foe, but we saw how well that went for the USA and USSR.

http://www.debka.com/article/24637/First-Hamas-ISIS-firefight-in-Gaza-%E2%80%9CIslamic-State-of-Jerusalem%E2%80%9D-supporters-sighted-on-Israeli-border

ISIS is indeed in Gaza. Those were actually my thoughts exactly about Israel and Hamas teaming up, but it might not work out. Also, are you referring to the USA/USSR in WWII? The war more or less caused their rivalry rather than fueled it. Before the war, they were powerful countries but not the dominant superpowers that they were from the late '40s to the '90s. The main problems started at the Potsdam Conference, once both sides were advancing on Germany.

[Life]

http://www.debka.com/article/24637/First-Hamas-ISIS-firefight-in-Gaza-%E2%80%9CIslamic-State-of-Jerusalem%E2%80%9D-supporters-sighted-on-Israeli-border

ISIS is indeed in Gaza. Those were actually my thoughts exactly about Israel and Hamas teaming up, but it might not work out. Also, are you referring to the USA/USSR in WWII? The war more or less caused their rivalry rather than fueled it. Before the war, they were powerful countries but not the dominant superpowers that they were from the late '40s to the '90s. The main problems started at the Potsdam Conference, once both sides were advancing on Germany.

Being someone who lives mere kilometers from Gaza, I can tell you that Hamas are scared shitless of ISIS.

Also, someone asked earlier what Israel is doing about ISIS and the correct answer is "nothing at all".

Think about it. ISIS are killing other Arabs. Until they attack Israel directly, we have no reason to get involved. In fact, we don't want to. We already get bad press with Hamas, a terrorist group acknowledged by the world and yet somehow, we're still the evil ones.

If Israel were to strike ISIS, ISIS would instantly be labled "freedom fighters" simply because it's us. That's how hated we are.

[blah the Prussian]

http://www.debka.com/article/24637/First-Hamas-ISIS-firefight-in-Gaza-“Islamic-State-of-Jerusalem”-supporters-sighted-on-Israeli-border

ISIS is indeed in Gaza. Those were actually my thoughts exactly about Israel and Hamas teaming up, but it might not work out. Also, are you referring to the USA/USSR in WWII? The war more or less caused their rivalry rather than fueled it. Before the war, they were powerful countries but not the dominant superpowers that they were from the late '40s to the '90s. The main problems started at the Potsdam Conference, once both sides were advancing on Germany.

Yeah, I suppose so. The USSR did, however, have a rivalry with the UK and France, but it was just an example.

Being someone who lives mere kilometers from Gaza, I can tell you that Hamas are scared shitless of ISIS.

Also, someone asked earlier what Israel is doing about ISIS and the correct answer is "nothing at all".

Think about it. ISIS are killing other Arabs. Until they attack Israel directly, we have no reason to get involved. In fact, we don't want to. We already get bad press with Hamas, a terrorist group acknowledged by the world and yet somehow, we're still the evil ones.

If Israel were to strike ISIS, ISIS would instantly be labled "freedom fighters" simply because it's us. That's how hated we are.

The sad thing is, this is probably true. We'd get headlines like "IDF soldier kicks puppy!" before we knew it.

[Snowy_One]

Being someone who lives mere kilometers from Gaza, I can tell you that Hamas are scared shitless of ISIS.

Also, someone asked earlier what Israel is doing about ISIS and the correct answer is "nothing at all".

Think about it. ISIS are killing other Arabs. Until they attack Israel directly, we have no reason to get involved. In fact, we don't want to. We already get bad press with Hamas, a terrorist group acknowledged by the world and yet somehow, we're still the evil ones.

If Israel were to strike ISIS, ISIS would instantly be labled "freedom fighters" simply because it's us. That's how hated we are.

While I don't agree 100% I do agree 95% with this. I suspect that the world wouldn't be so... immediately toxic... to Israel if they did, indeed, drive back ISIS. However I do believe that the world would instantly blame Israel the moment anything went wrong and say that they're just looking for another power-gain and the like.

Edit: I wonder if ISIS has realized the irony of their movement having the acronym of a famous Egyptian Goddess?

Edited June 6, 2015 by Snowy_One

[blah the Prussian]

Well, Life's point was probably hyperbolic, as was mine. If Israel did get involved, it would probably serve to build up support for ISIS in the land it controls, given how much propaganda is being fed. ISIS could very well take a page out of Kim Jong Un's handbook, only with Israel replacing (or joining) the US.

[Blaze The Great]

Being someone who lives mere kilometers from Gaza, I can tell you that Hamas are scared shitless of ISIS.

Also, someone asked earlier what Israel is doing about ISIS and the correct answer is "nothing at all".

Think about it. ISIS are killing other Arabs. Until they attack Israel directly, we have no reason to get involved. In fact, we don't want to. We already get bad press with Hamas, a terrorist group acknowledged by the world and yet somehow, we're still the evil ones.

If Israel were to strike ISIS, ISIS would instantly be labled "freedom fighters" simply because it's us. That's how hated we are.

I'm unfortunately inclined to believe you. The world hates Israel for no real reason, and if you look at facts, it's fairly obvious that Israel is actually the good guy in this fight. But propaganda and ridiculous media stir up so much unnecessary hate, and it's so stupid. The reaction might not be as bad as you describe but...ISIS all of a sudden wouldn't be such monstrous villains, I would imagine.

[blah the Prussian]

I think people would still hate ISIS. I would find it terribly depressing if we made them into the good guys. Making Hamas into the good guys is one thing, as their atrocities are less widely reported, but ISIS's many dick moves are widely publicized.

[Phoenix Wright]

Edit: I wonder if ISIS has realized the irony of their movement having the acronym of a famous Egyptian Goddess?

in arabic, that's not its acronym.

the world would still hate isis, but the middle east won't...

[blah the Prussian]

in arabic, that's not its acronym.

the world would still hate isis, but the middle east won't...

ISIS views Iran as just as heretical as Israel. The Middle Eastern nations know full well ISIS is the bigger threat here. They are saner than that.

[Phoenix Wright]

while that's true, i think that if israel were to throw the "first punch" so to speak, the backlash against israel could be palpable. it's sad, really. i know the middle east is saner than that, and would not attempt to insinuate otherwise; however, life's scenario, though silly, is not totally nonsense, which is what's sad. thankfully, within my own family, anti-semitism isn't found afaik (jordanian background), but that's a minority position in jordan (last i checked anyway).

Edited June 8, 2015 by Phoenix Wright

[blah the Prussian]

while that's true, i think that if israel were to throw the "first punch" so to speak, the backlash against israel could be palpable. it's sad, really. i know the middle east is saner than that, and would not attempt to insinuate otherwise; however, life's scenario, though silly, is not totally nonsense, which is what's sad. thankfully, within my own family, anti-semitism isn't found afaik (jordanian background), but that's a minority position in jordan (last i checked anyway).

Yeah, that's probably true, at least in terms of the reactions of the people of the Middle East. I suppose not being a democracy has its benefits.

[emblempride]

Don't have the time to read the thread, so just tossing my two cents in here. Could someone a bit more informed tell me if anything, anything at all positive has come out of the west's world policing and intervention good intentions aside? Or our buttbuddying with Israel? I think it's time for the west to just get to fuck for once. I mean, Buddhists have fucked over Muslims and Hindus, there's been genocides all over Africa we could give a fuck about, everyone seemed to magically forget about Boko Haram until they backed IS - it seems that there are plenty of atrocities happening all over and IS just happens to be at the center of the propaganda game right now. I am fairly certain that quite a few of my fellow Americans believe IS, the Taliban, and al-Qaida to be one big supergroup. I'm not trying to downplaying their power or atrocities, but what can we do that won't just mess things up, kill more people, and further the resentment towards the west? The last century hasn't exactly provided great evidence for intervention in the Middle East. We treated Saddam like goddamn Freddie Krueger, and, well, doesn't seem like we fixed anything there. Even if IS were eliminated, there's another still in the balance of power that works as a great opportunity for some other group to jump in and do the exact same shit and it's only made easier by the chaos more intervention would create. And this is all without saying how shady the UN is in general. A Swedish man was put on trial in London for alleged terrorism in Syria, but the prosecution said screw it to save face for the Brits because it was abundantly clear that they had supported the same rebel groups as the fucking guy they put on trial for terrorism. This rebel group is described as Syria's al-Qaida, fyi. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/01/trial-swedish-man-accused-terrorism-offences-collapse-bherlin-gildo

The US and others definitely ain't better, I'm sure. It's all heartbreaking and frustrating, but moral impulses work on the level of the individual, not when global power politics come into play. Save a 2nd Holocaust, God forbid, it's unrealistic to think that we'll ever provide the focused, unified front we'd all like to hope for. It's time to leave it alone, no?

[blah the Prussian]

Don't have the time to read the thread, so just tossing my two cents in here. Could someone a bit more informed tell me if anything, anything at all positive has come out of the west's world policing and intervention good intentions aside? Or our buttbuddying with Israel? I think it's time for the west to just get to fuck for once. I mean, Buddhists have fucked over Muslims and Hindus, there's been genocides all over Africa we could give a fuck about, everyone seemed to magically forget about Boko Haram until they backed IS - it seems that there are plenty of atrocities happening all over and IS just happens to be at the center of the propaganda game right now. I am fairly certain that quite a few of my fellow Americans believe IS, the Taliban, and al-Qaida to be one big supergroup. I'm not trying to downplaying their power or atrocities, but what can we do that won't just mess things up, kill more people, and further the resentment towards the west? The last century hasn't exactly provided great evidence for intervention in the Middle East. We treated Saddam like goddamn Freddie Krueger, and, well, doesn't seem like we fixed anything there. Even if IS were eliminated, there's another still in the balance of power that works as a great opportunity for some other group to jump in and do the exact same shit and it's only made easier by the chaos more intervention would create. And this is all without saying how shady the UN is in general. A Swedish man was put on trial in London for alleged terrorism in Syria, but the prosecution said screw it to save face for the Brits because it was abundantly clear that they had supported the same rebel groups as the fucking guy they put on trial for terrorism. This rebel group is described as Syria's al-Qaida, fyi. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/01/trial-swedish-man-accused-terrorism-offences-collapse-bherlin-gildo

The US and others definitely ain't better, I'm sure. It's all heartbreaking and frustrating, but moral impulses work on the level of the individual, not when global power politics come into play. Save a 2nd Holocaust, God forbid, it's unrealistic to think that we'll ever provide the focused, unified front we'd all like to hope for. It's time to leave it alone, no?

Oh, of course its ridiculously biased, and of course the UN is shady, and of course we should not be the worlds policeman. Have you seen the World Freedom index? Biased as fuck. What we should be doing, however, is to assist countries we have an alliance with that are currently at war, as Iraq is. Now, what we are doing now does not seem like it will bring peace, but tell me something: will a complete withdrawal do the same? If we withdraw, we'll be giving a terror organization that claims its goal is a state stretching from Spain to Australia a shit ton of oil, oil that will be lost to us. zThats going to fuck over the economy of the entire world. So yeah, I'm not under any illusions that the World Police thing is bullshit, but I think that oil is a perfect reason to go to war. After all, its going to be pretty scarce soon. We shouldn't need a moral justification to protect the economy.

[Blaze The Great]

Agreed with blah. We could fight for moral reasons (we screwed this up, now we need to reverse it). We could fight for economic, or even just for political/diplomatic. Honestly, trying to fight this war won't fix anything, but unless you have a better suggestion, there's not much we can do to deal with a cult like ISIS.

[eclipse]

Agreed with blah. We could fight for moral reasons (we screwed this up, now we need to reverse it). We could fight for economic, or even just for political/diplomatic. Honestly, trying to fight this war won't fix anything, but unless you have a better suggestion, there's not much we can do to deal with a cult like ISIS.

Nothing that would make us look like the good guys. Because there IS something that can be done about it, and it involves a lot of collateral damage, and that's follow The Cookie Monster's suggestion of killing every last one of them.

[Snowy_One]

Honestly, the more I see, the more I become convinced that either people need to step up to the plate or America really should become the world police.

I know what I've said before and elsewhere, that democracy isn't always the right choice and, even if it is, it needs to be reached naturally and all that; but I keep seeing this sort of thing HAPPEN! Where things that shouldn't have even been allowed to become issues in the first place have become major and everyone is basically backing away from it and going 'not my problem' when the threats are huge! Even if ISIS remains confined to the middle east and doesn't invade any more nations (ha!) the sheer amount of humans rights atrocities it's committed would probably make the love-child of Kim Jong Un AND Hitler blush! I mean, both were bad, but you didn't get sprayed in acid just because you got raped by your boyfriend who decided it would be a laugh with your father and you objected back when you were 12.

Instead we focus on the brink of war between Japan and China because of some UNINHABITED islands! Russia is trying to destroy Eastern Europe because its leader is an idiot who hasn't realized that the cold war is over and America, while it might enjoy it's 'Soviet Russia' jokes a bit too much, doesn't have any beef with Russia anymore at all. The constant fighting between Israel and HAMAS... I'm not going to say which one is right or wrong, but I WILL say that this sort of thing should NOT have gone on as long as it has regardless of who is right or wrong!

The worst part of this is that the whole thing is happening effectively because no one else wants to get involved. Sure, having someone else come around and enforce their cultural and social values on you sucks big-time; but having World War III sucks harder. Watching innocent women get abused and murdered because no one wants to actually commit to taking out an insane terrorist sect that has OTHER terrorists sects afraid of them is such an absurdity that it shouldn't even be POSSIBLE to happen! And, you know what, I'm sick of having to apologize for it or go 'Well, Christians have done bad things too' or whatever or hearing about how someone got kicked out from a bike store just because he was male on a day meant for 'non-gender-binary' people (HEY ASSHOLES! Did you think that a white guy MIGHT not a beer-can crushing male just because he's married?) only to see people seemingly turn a blind eye to what's happening out there and/or basically go 'well, I'd go, but I'd get sand in my shoes. Plus it's racist to assume all members of ISIS are muslim terrorists'.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, straight, gay, whatever people DON'T DO THIS. PERIOD! We didn't go to Iraq shouting out 'KILL THE MUSLIM HEATHEN!' We went because we thought there was a crude dictator there threatening the safety of the world with chemical and/or nuclear weapons. Yes, there are people like Westbourgh Baptist, BUT IF YOU STOPPED AND PAID ATTENTION FOR A SECOND YOU'D REALIZE THAT THIS IS NOT HOW NORMAL PEOPLE ACT! So, you know what? I don't care one bit if Israel attacks and trounces ISIS. I don't care one bit if Israel attacks and trounces the Middle East. I don't care if they conquer the entire world; because I'm fast reaching the point where I'd rather see a world police that actually gets stuff done and keeps the peace while tearing down people who see murder, rape, and slavery as A-Okay so long as it's done to the half of the human race boys thought had cooties growing up than have to sit by and hear how someone feels he should be congratulated for removing his own arm so he can become 'the handicapped person he feels he has always been' or whatever.

http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/1383872/edmonton-cyclist-denied-entry-to-bike-shop-based-on-gender/

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/becoming-disabled-by-choice-not-chance-transabled-people-feel-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies#__federated=1

So hail Israel, America, Russia, France, China, Canada, whoever. So long as you can keep the peace, take out people actually causing open human rights violations, and the rest... well... AT LEAST WE DON'T HAVE THIS!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTDQZzQMKk

[blah the Prussian]

Nothing that would make us look like the good guys. Because there IS something that can be done about it, and it involves a lot of collateral damage, and that's follow The Cookie Monster's suggestion of killing every last one of them.

At this point, I doubt that causing collator damage will make us look like the bad guys. We were still the good guys against the Axis with a bunch of unneeded collateral damage (Dresden) and I think ISIS is about as bad as the Nazis and Japanese.

@Snowy: Okay, first off, my principle objection to American intervention in the Middle East RIGHT NOW is that its unneeded. The anti ISIS coalition is doing a pretty good job of keeping them contained right now. However, if ISIS begins to threaten to conquer the whole of Iraq and Syria, thats when we should get involved. Secondly, there are a lot of hyperboles you used. China and Japan are NOT about to go to war over anything; its a territorial dispute and they happen a lot. Putin is not trying to destroy Eastern Europe. Hitler, incidentally, wanted to eugenically make the Slavs into a slave race. All of this, however, is besides the point.

The big thing you seemed to express anger about was political correctness. I seriously doubt that anyone who's opinion actually matters in their country believes ISIS should not be stopped or whatever due to Political Correctness. If tI happen to be wrong about this, allow me to first apologize to you for doubting you, and then go in a corner and cry out of shame for sharing a species with a leader that would think that. Now, all of what you have said hinges on the notion that more intervention is needed to beat ISIS. This notion is outright false. Coalition forces have recently recaptured the city of Tikrit, and are containing ISIS's advance elsewhere. The US and some European countries, meanwhile, are doing a bombing campaign. I think it sounds reasonable to have the Middle Eastern countries do the ground war, and the Coalition do airstrikes, don't you? he world, in my mind, does not need a policeman, as the nations of the Middle East have acquitted themselves quite well so far defending themselves.

[Snowy_One]

I'm sorry. I sort of blew a gasket last night over the issue. I'm just fed up with hearing about how evil white, cis, males are in the developed world while SJW's turn a blind eye to, or outright defend, ISIS simply because they're muslim/in the middle east. Especially since said feminists are more than willing to level false accusations against Israel or outright claim things like that the holocaust didn't happen. I'm also sick of having to say things like 'I know all muslims aren't like ISIS' because everyone should already know I know most muslims, most SANE PEOPLE, are not like ISIS.

Also, Turkey has made it pretty clear that, while they will protect their borders from ISIS, they don't really have a beef with them and are willing to slow other nations down from trying to intervene.

[blah the Prussian]

I'm sorry. I sort of blew a gasket last night over the issue. I'm just fed up with hearing about how evil white, cis, males are in the developed world while SJW's turn a blind eye to, or outright defend, ISIS simply because they're muslim/in the middle east. Especially since said feminists are more than willing to level false accusations against Israel or outright claim things like that the holocaust didn't happen. I'm also sick of having to say things like 'I know all muslims aren't like ISIS' because everyone should already know I know most muslims, most SANE PEOPLE, are not like ISIS.

Also, Turkey has made it pretty clear that, while they will protect their borders from ISIS, they don't really have a beef with them and are willing to slow other nations down from trying to intervene.

Yeah, a trip to one of the darker corners of the Internet will do that to you. Fortunately, international politics are not the internet. Just be careful, as many feminists are not SJWs; the only ones who could be said to be that way are radical feminists, and even then they sometimes say shit like "all transponders want to get a better chance to rape" so that can't make the SJWs happy. And speaking of Holocaust deniers, I find it deeply ironic that the majority of deniers would likely be the first ones to find the Gestapo knocking on their doors (looking at you, Ahmadinejad)

[Blaze The Great]

There's a huge issue that's being overlooked, probably because of its own nature. No one's talking about ISIS.

No, I'm not kidding. There are articles on the Internet here and there. A brief news flash about them over there. But the average American person doesn't even care enough to talk about ISIS. It's like there is some kind of taboo almost. Blah, it might not be the same where you are, but in my high school/youth group/family, I have maybe 10 people I could confidently have a serious discussion about ISIS with. The people of America seriously need to wake up. A British journalist died? Not our problem. Two Japanese reporters beheaded? Not American. Egyptians? Iraqis? Syrians? Libyans?

You get the point. We aren't paying attention because we don't think is "our problem". A terrible mindset to take. Someday, it will be "our problem". And by then, it may be too late. If America really wants to maintain its security, we need to act. People don't care, but they need to. This is a serious issue, and people are seriously turning a blind eye.

[blah the Prussian]

There's a huge issue that's being overlooked, probably because of its own nature. No one's talking about ISIS.

No, I'm not kidding. There are articles on the Internet here and there. A brief news flash about them over there. But the average American person doesn't even care enough to talk about ISIS. It's like there is some kind of taboo almost. Blah, it might not be the same where you are, but in my high school/youth group/family, I have maybe 10 people I could confidently have a serious discussion about ISIS with. The people of America seriously need to wake up. A British journalist died? Not our problem. Two Japanese reporters beheaded? Not American. Egyptians? Iraqis? Syrians? Libyans?

You get the point. We aren't paying attention because we don't think is "our problem". A terrible mindset to take. Someday, it will be "our problem". And by then, it may be too late. If America really wants to maintain its security, we need to act. People don't care, but they need to. This is a serious issue, and people are seriously turning a blind eye.

That's... unbelievable. And also really, really depressing. That's actually reminiscent of the rhetoric of isolationist politicians in the early days of the Second World War. In Prague, and in most of Europe, it's not taboo, but it is reported on slightly sparsely. I chalk this up, however, to the fact that it's hard to get accurate facts on the fighting as it's going on, especially since no journalist with half a brain would risk being captured. Of course, the conflict is deeply affecting Europe, what with a ridiculous amount of refugees immigrating, and with ISIS targeting Europeans for recruitment. I suppose that with the wave of neo isolationism, any conflict not involving American troops doesn't matter. One thing is clear, though: the level of apathy we are giving ISIS makes Neville Chamberlain seem like Teddy Roosevelt. At least isolationists in WWII had the excuse that the Nazis were keeping the Holocaust under raps, but ISIS is being rather public about its dick moves. Really, that's not just depressing, that's terrifying, based on isolationists track record.

[Blaze The Great]

That's... unbelievable. And also really, really depressing. That's actually reminiscent of the rhetoric of isolationist politicians in the early days of the Second World War. In Prague, and in most of Europe, it's not taboo, but it is reported on slightly sparsely. I chalk this up, however, to the fact that it's hard to get accurate facts on the fighting as it's going on, especially since no journalist with half a brain would risk being captured. Of course, the conflict is deeply affecting Europe, what with a ridiculous amount of refugees immigrating, and with ISIS targeting Europeans for recruitment. I suppose that with the wave of neo isolationism, any conflict not involving American troops doesn't matter. One thing is clear, though: the level of apathy we are giving ISIS makes Neville Chamberlain seem like Teddy Roosevelt. At least isolationists in WWII had the excuse that the Nazis were keeping the Holocaust under raps, but ISIS is being rather public about its dick moves. Really, that's not just depressing, that's terrifying, based on isolationists track record.

Ok, the taboo thing was a slight exaggeration. But the rest was not. You hear the news reports, and that's really it. We aren't striving for a solution, we're just hoping that they will solve their own problems. Which it is fairly obvious that they can't. That is why it is so scary, and yes, it does seem rather isolationist. Granted, I don't have a total grasp of American demographics, but in my generation, at least, there seem to be very few people concerned about ISIS. Or any other real world issues. They care much more about who is dating whom or the new iPhone or whatever.

[Snowy_One]

Ok, the taboo thing was a slight exaggeration. But the rest was not. You hear the news reports, and that's really it. We aren't striving for a solution, we're just hoping that they will solve their own problems. Which it is fairly obvious that they can't. That is why it is so scary, and yes, it does seem rather isolationist. Granted, I don't have a total grasp of American demographics, but in my generation, at least, there seem to be very few people concerned about ISIS. Or any other real world issues. They care much more about who is dating whom or the new iPhone or whatever.

Sadly this is far too true. Most Americans have become harshly disconnected with the world and apathetic to anything that doesn't affect their luxuries directly. They couldn't care if Israel or HAMAS is in the right, for example, so long as it doesn't affect their Facebook page. A sizable chunk probably couldn't tell you what a cross looks like but know the closest three malls inside and out. They have no clue where coffee comes from but spend all day sitting around and drinking it in Starbucks claiming to be 'multicultural and accepting' while on the net.

Yea. Modern Americans are apathetic, lazy, assholes.

[Blaze The Great]

Last sentence fairly well sums up my view of about 95% of the country. I mean, I guess it does seem like a natural progression of a thriving, democratic, capitalist society, but that doesn't make it right. Most people don't seem to understand that while the government is obligated to its people, the people bear a similarly large obligation to their country. And when you have the power of a nation like the US, it IS sometimes your duty to step up to the plate and fight for what you believe in. Granted, it might not always be right, but when the theoretical foe is a group of radical jihadis who chop off the heads of all who oppose them, I think it might be time to start taking action.

But yeah, American society sucks. Our societal norms are ridiculous, laughable even. That's not to say that people who don't follow them are perfect, but ignorance does not excuse laziness.

[blah the Prussian]

Last sentence fairly well sums up my view of about 95% of the country. I mean, I guess it does seem like a natural progression of a thriving, democratic, capitalist society, but that doesn't make it right. Most people don't seem to understand that while the government is obligated to its people, the people bear a similarly large obligation to their country. And when you have the power of a nation like the US, it IS sometimes your duty to step up to the plate and fight for what you believe in. Granted, it might not always be right, but when the theoretical foe is a group of radical jihadis who chop off the heads of all who oppose them, I think it might be time to start taking action.

But yeah, American society sucks. Our societal norms are ridiculous, laughable even. That's not to say that people who don't follow them are perfect, but ignorance does not excuse laziness.

I'd say that e main issue is that the focus on "liberty" means that Americans feel as though they don't have any obligations, thus ruining the whole basis of the social contract. Then again, America always has been pretty well suited to isolationism. We are surrounded by allies and ocean, and the last time the states themselves were Invaded was over 100 years ago. Quite frankly, we don't have any reason to care, and that is the problem.