"The Light That Shines in the Dark" - Nohr Story Discussion

[Thane]

Well, it's unfortunate to know Nohr is the worse version, despite being marketed as the darker, more complex story of the two. Certainly decreased my hype quite a lot. I will play Nohr first as planned, but I won't expect too much great things from it story wise. At least it still has great characters, and maybe good game play.

The gameplay is overall fantastic, creative and fun. There are a few exceptions, but they're not enough to taint the experience. You certainly don't have to worry about that.

However, yes, don't expect anything at all from the story aside from frustration.

I think I just realized the line that was the hair that broke the camel's back, as it were:

Warning: cringe and possibly (and as always, hopefully) mistranslated or misremembered by me:

Kamui, after having beaten Hinoka - and destroyed both Takumi's army and straight up murdered his subordinates - he raises his hand as if to kill her and then stops (we don't find out why he would toy with her), which makes his next line even more ridiculous:

"I want all of us siblings to meet up again and laugh", or something along those lines.

That's a great thing to say after having invaded someone's country, killed their people and then pretended you were going to execute them on the spot.

[Kirokan]

The gameplay is overall fantastic, creative and fun. There are a few exceptions, but they're not enough to taint the experience. You certainly don't have to worry about that.

However, yes, don't expect anything at all from the story aside from frustration.

I think I just realized the line that was the hair that broke the camel's back, as it were:

Warning: cringe and possibly (and as always, hopefully) mistranslated or misremembered by me:

Kamui, after having beaten Hinoka - and destroyed both Takumi's army and straight up murdered his subordinates - he raises his hand as if to kill her and then stops (we don't find out why he would toy with her), which makes his next line even more ridiculous:

"I want all of us siblings to meet up again and laugh", or something along those lines.

That's a great thing to say after having invaded someone's country, killed their people and then pretended you were going to execute them on the spot.

Yes, he says "I want all of us, Hoshido and Nohr siblings alike, to be able to have fun together and share happy moments laughing" it was a rather strange moment...So you are not misremembering : )

[Thane]

Yes, he says "I want all of us, Hoshido and Nohr siblings alike, to be able to have fun together and share happy moments laughing" it was a rather strange moment...So you are not misremembering : )

I usually love being right about things, but not about this, senpai, not about this! It's one of the stupidest lines I've heard in my entire goddamn life!

[astrophys]

Thinking about it in retrospect, I think that we (as a community) widely made too sweeping assumptions about "internal reform" meant, even though we've seen a variety of other works of fiction in which "internal reform" sounds like a good idea but often results in the would-be reformist end up as a lapdog of the system until some opportunity arises.

I mean, look at

Code Geass and Suzaku Kururugi, the would-be internal reformist. Despite his convictions, there really isn't nearly as much he can practically do to change the system as he'd like, and he ends up as Britannia's lapdog, dispatching their various enemies for them while he bides his time.

[Kirokan]

I usually love being right about things, but not about this, senpai, not about this! It's one of the stupidest lines I've heard in my entire goddamn life!

It's a very Japanese line, as I would put it. It is from this one you can tell it was written by a star manga author, a shounen one at that. xD

Thinking about it in retrospect, I think that we (as a community) widely made too sweeping assumptions about "internal reform" meant, even though we've seen a variety of other works of fiction in which "internal reform" sounds like a good idea but often results in the would-be reformist end up as a lapdog of the system until some opportunity arises.

I mean, look at

Code Geass and Suzaku Kururugi, the would-be internal reformist. Despite his convictions, there really isn't nearly as much he can practically do to change the system as he'd like, and he ends up as Britannia's lapdog, dispatching their various enemies for them while he bides his time.

I usually put what a spoiler is about right before the spoiler so I don't open it and see it is something other than I assumed. But I have seen that show, and I hear comparisons are often made, and indeed I do some, though I think that one ended up better written in that "internal change" theme. : )

But yes, internal reform and the "darker" story were certainly a little bit of a misnomer.

[NeonZ]

Ah, indeed. They did not give a mention, and the only vaguest hint is the mention of Hydra (named Ananthos in English, or something like that) which was in the second chapter of the Nohr story.

I played Nohr first so already forgot some things from it. But indeed, a lack of name and any reasoning beyond is still third path pushing...

I was talking about these ancient texts

https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/MlWA77tvbVoe4nJMX3

They're coded, but people have already deciphered everything anyway apparently, like posted in the hype thread, and they give the Hydra's identity and backstory, even without the third path.

Edited July 2, 2015 by NeonZ

[Crysta]

i was hoping we'd befriend the enemies of our enemies, arm the disenfranchised peasants, and attack garon when he's busy watching azura dance

hopes dashed. i hope you're happy! D:

[Kirokan]

I was talking about these ancient texts

https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/MlWA77tvbVoe4nJMX3

They're coded, but people have already deciphered everything anyway apparently, like posted in the hype thread, and they give the Hydra's identity and backstory, even without the third path.

Interesting... not the sort of thing one would normally read and such though without...well a lot of help? Understandable if I haven't seen it though in the hype thread...that one is insane to keep up with!

But I guess that means the info is already around but inaccessible? I guess that's even worse...xD

[NeonZ]

But I guess that means the info is already around but inaccessible?

They're accessible, just with those characters that most people won't be able to read by themselves.

[Kirokan]

They're accessible, just with those characters that most people won't be able to read by themselves.

Ah, I meant not accessible in...a user-friendly way. xD Do you think it was meant to be read/deciphered/understood or just appear as a mystery to be revealed later?

[Icy Toast]

Ah, I meant not accessible in...a user-friendly way. xD Do you think it was meant to be read/deciphered/understood or just appear as a mystery to be revealed later?

The texts include a pretty obvious key, so it does appear that they were supposed to be deciphered before the third route comes out. I tried to read them myself when I first noticed these texts in My Castle, and to be honest I gave up pretty quickly because it took a lot of time, but the one line I did manage to deciper happened to be a pretty big spoiler. It really makes me wonder why they thought it was a good idea to show us these ancient document things right from the beginning of the game. It would have made a lot more sense to have us unlock them by clearing the game at least once, or something like that.

I was talking about these ancient texts

https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/MlWA77tvbVoe4nJMX3

They're coded, but people have already deciphered everything anyway apparently, like posted in the hype thread, and they give the Hydra's identity and backstory, even without the third path.

If you don't mind, do you happen to have page number/link to that post in the hype thread? I'd like to read the rest of the texts without having to spend ages deciphering them, but I'm not sure I feel like wading through 300 pages to find them.

[Kirokan]

The texts include a pretty obvious key, so it does appear that they were supposed to be deciphered before the third route comes out. I tried to read them myself when I first noticed these texts in My Castle, and to be honest I gave up pretty quickly because it took a lot of time, but the one line I did manage to deciper happened to be a pretty big spoiler. It really makes me wonder why they thought it was a good idea to show us these ancient document things right from the beginning of the game. It would have made a lot more sense to have us unlock them by clearing the game at least once, or something like that.

If you don't mind, do you happen to have page number/link to that post in the hype thread? I'd like to read the rest of the texts without having to spend ages deciphering them, but I'm not sure I feel like wading through 300 pages to find them.

Sorry if I sound repetitive, but is they key for the text in the game for a regular player, or only within the text dump and such? Understood about how it gives things away though...I'm just asking because I wonder if this really qualifies as "having been mentioned in the story" (straightforwardly) or not. Thanks for your patience. : )

Edited July 2, 2015 by Kirokan

[NeonZ]

The texts include a pretty obvious key, so it does appear that they were supposed to be deciphered before the third route comes out. I tried to read them myself when I first noticed these texts in My Castle, and to be honest I gave up pretty quickly because it took a lot of time, but the one line I did manage to deciper happened to be a pretty big spoiler. It really makes me wonder why they thought it was a good idea to show us these ancient document things right from the beginning of the game. It would have made a lot more sense to have us unlock them by clearing the game at least once, or something like that.

If you don't mind, do you happen to have page number/link to that post in the hype thread? I'd like to read the rest of the texts without having to spend ages deciphering them, but I'm not sure I feel like wading through 300 pages to find them.

Here's a post with the translation of most of them, including the big spoiler about Kamui's heritage.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54871&view=findpost&p=3840162

Edited July 2, 2015 by NeonZ

[Icy Toast]

^Much appreciated!

Sorry if I sound repetitive, but is they key for the text in the game for a regular player, or only within the text dump and such? Understood about how it gives things away though...I'm just asking because I wonder if this really qualifies as "having been mentioned in the story" (straightforwardly) or not. Thanks for your patience. : )

I'm sorry if my reply was confusing! I don't know whether you've looked at them in game yet, but the 'ancient texts' are all found in the Archives building in My Castle under "図書室" --> "古文書資料". If you look at the very last one (星界の石碑), you'll notice that it looks nothing like the other documents, and instead just lists 26 characters. This is the key for the other texts. The characters correspond to the 26 alphabet letters in the exact order they're presented in, and if you convert the other documents to alphabetic text you'll find that they're written in romanized Japanese. So it takes a good amount of effort to read them, but these texts were definitely intended to be read by regular players. Edited July 2, 2015 by Icy Toast

[B.Leu]

The more I look at the plot, the more I have the impression to read a very bad manga, where the hero can shit nuke out of his ass and resolve all of his problem, but don't for some reason.

Kamui is a dragon, I kill myself into saying that, and have an apparently I dunno, legendary weapon, a hidden castle, and siblings who love him very much. Probably not that much, but eh...

Kamui doesn't even need a big badass plan, the only thing he need is some brain and the balls to use what he already have. Or rather, the writer need to do that.

If he must kill Gantz and Garon as fast as possible, so be it, no need to tolerate their BS.

Edited July 2, 2015 by B.Leu

[Kirokan]

^Much appreciated!

I'm sorry if my reply was confusing! I don't know whether you've looked at them in game yet, but the 'ancient texts' are all found in the Archives building in My Castle under "図書室" --> "古文書資料". If you look at the very last one (星界の石碑), you'll notice that it looks nothing like the other documents, and instead just lists 26 characters. This is the key for the other texts. The characters correspond to the 26 alphabet letters in the exact order they're presented in, and if you convert the other documents to alphabetic text you'll find that they're written in romanized Japanese. So it takes a good amount of effort to read them, but these texts were definitely intended to be read by regular players.

Ah! I missed those completely xD I only looked at character profiles for translation purposes within the archives, rather than the option right under it. : ) That certainly helps then in the non linear way, rather than main story. Thanks for pointing it out!

Here's a post with the translation of most of them, including the big spoiler about Kamui's heritage.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=54871&view=findpost&p=3840162

EDIT: Where the texts aside from those translated? I can help out if not.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Kirokan

[Icy Toast]

EDIT: Where the texts aside from those translated? I can help out if not.

It looks like the other three texts are in fact

the lyrics to Aqua's song, with the first one being the Hoshido version, the second one the Nohr version and the third what seems to be a third route version

(A transcription can be found here)

Edited July 2, 2015 by Icy Toast

[Kirokan]

It looks like the other three texts are in fact

the lyrics to Aqua's song, with the first one being the Hoshido version, the second one the Nohr version and the third what seems to be a third route version

(A transcription can be found here)

Great, you and NeonZ were very helpful. Totally missed it in the archives or would've looked at it sooner. : )

Regarding what you said:

I also translated the lyrics to the full song the other day, so saw the similarities between the paths and the like there.

[Ryo]

The third "prophecy"

reflects a rather disturbing "wish" of someone, which would totally fit with Hydra's ultimate goal.

[PureshadowXIII]

Something of note is that one of the main complaints regarding Kamui and the royal family makes perfect sense in the context of the Roman culture Nohr is based off of: He would be asking his siblings to commit the worst possible crime in their country.

[Thane]

Something of note is that one of the main complaints regarding Kamui and the royal family makes perfect sense in the context of the Roman culture Nohr is based off of: He would be asking his siblings to commit the worst possible crime in their country.

I apologize if I phrase this harshly, but I simply do not understand this argument.

A fictional kingdom is loosely based on the Roman Empire, and just because of a few similarities, we are to assume that patricide is considered the worst crime of them all even there? It's never mentioned in the story, and the main characters come across as spineless idiots rather than royalty fulfilling their duty. If they had discussed it and talked about the moral dilemma in which they found themselves, I could have maybe seen your point, but they never do.

However, and more importantly, it's a very, very poor excuse for writing a poorly paced, insufficiently explained and bland story. Having Kamui and their siblings agree to everything without a will of their own, occasionally spiced up with Ganz and Iago twirling their moustaches and you being powerless to do anything because killing your dad is a big deal is simply not an intriguing plot.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Thane

[astrophys]

From the Xander/Marx and Siegbert support

1. Siegbert: Father?
2. Xander: It seems that I have become the shackles of your growth.
3. Siegbert: Such a thing…
4. Xander: There is no need to compare yourself and me.
5. Xander: You should learn in your own way.
6. Siegbert: But for me, father is the absolute existence…
7. Xander: I can understand.
8. Xander: For me, my father was also the absolute existence…

This shows how Xander had viewed Garon, the man who raised him.

Let us keep in mind that Xander at this point doesn't realize that his real father is dead and the Garon now on the throne is an imposter. Xander clearly had a huge level of respect for his REAL father. He wouldn't betray the man he believes to be his father lightly and would be extremely resistant to that notion

[Thane]

From the Xander/Marx and Siegbert support

1. Siegbert: Father?
2. Xander: It seems that I have become the shackles of your growth.
3. Siegbert: Such a thing…
4. Xander: There is no need to compare yourself and me.
5. Xander: You should learn in your own way.
6. Siegbert: But for me, father is the absolute existence…
7. Xander: I can understand.
8. Xander: For me, my father was also the absolute existence…

This shows how Xander had viewed Garon, the man who raised him.

Let us keep in mind that Xander at this point doesn't realize that his real father is dead and the Garon now on the throne is an imposter. Xander clearly had a huge level of respect for his REAL father. He wouldn't betray the man he believes to be his father lightly and would be extremely resistant to that notion

And that's completely fine.

However, it's not even relevant until I believe the 25:th chapter, and even then he neither mentions his love/respect for Garon nor even says anything to indicate that it's what makes it hard for him to accept Kamui's proposal. It's a complete nonfactor. Like I said in my earlier post, if they had actually discussed it earlier and really suffered from the moral dilemma of having to kill your own father, then it would have been a fine point to make, but they don't. They talk about having to kill Garon in one chapter and then do it the next, or even the same unless I'm mistaken.

[NeonZ]

And that's completely fine.

However, it's not even relevant until I believe the 25:th chapter, and even then he neither mentions his love/respect for Garon nor even says anything to indicate that it's what makes it hard for him to accept Kamui's proposal. It's a complete nonfactor. Like I said in my earlier post, if they had actually discussed it earlier and really suffered from the moral dilemma of having to kill your own father, then it would have been a fine point to make, but they don't. They talk about having to kill Garon in one chapter and then do it the next, or even the same unless I'm mistaken.

It's relevant because it explains why Kamui believes that Marx wouldn't turn against Garon until he was ready to expose that it wasn't really Garon with solid proof, rather than making such a big accusation without any proof. The only thing that Marx does before seeing that it wasn't Garon at all was agreeing to open a door that was supposed to remain locked. Even so, Marx warns that he'd consider Kamui an enemy and turn the army against him if it turned out to be a lie.

Edited July 8, 2015 by NeonZ

[Ownagepuffs]

A bit disappointing, to hear. From a more optimistic point of view, I think it's sort of cool that we can see things from the Camus point of view (all the Nohrian siblings are basically Camus) and I saw a Camilia line somewhere about how they acknowledge the bad of their actions but won't go against their father's wishes.

The crystal ball thing sound hilarious, though. I couldn't think of a stupider contrivance if I tried. Well, there's RD's blood pact to be fair.