Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Taka-kun]

I'm not sure how can it be equated to holding Elise at sword point when he's not the one who made Elise sick in the first place

It makes perfect sense since Ryouma didn't know Elise was sick, therefore his only option at the time was to cross swords. If he wanted to drag Kamui back to Hoshido, and given new information, see a way end it in a nonviolent manner while end up with something both of them wants (tbh it's more like a deal imo), and Kamui didn't want the deal, so the path opened by the new information closes and he's back to the previous node on the action tree.

I don't think one cay say Kamui's coerced if Kamui didn't end up returning to Ryouma's side anyway.

I'm going to try to get into Ryouma's head a bit here. Obviously he cares about Kamui a lot. Part of it's due to the fact that Kamui was kidnapped in front of him, and he doesn't quite let that go. When Kamui joins back up with Nohr in chapter 6, he obviously feels betrayed. Part of him sees the need of treating Kamui as exactly what he is, a traitor, but the other part of him still wants his little sibling back (in his amie conversations, apparently losing Kamui the first time was very traumatizing to him, and granted the game can definitely be 300% kamuicentric but this is what i have to work with). He's balancing this feeling of anger and betrayal with how much he actually cares about Kamui, and he wants Kamui back but Kamui as an enemy is not gonna back down so easily. So when he got the information that Kamui's in the area, beating his face in was the logical path of action at the time, so he went to pick a fight.

However, when Kamui disclosed new information it:

1) Gives himself an option at not having to pummel Kamui's face in

2) Acquire an ally

3) Give Kamui something he wanted.

It would be absolutely unkingly for him to step aside when someone is an enemy, but an ally? Helping out an ally makes perfect sense and would ease the dilemma of both their issues more. This is the most logical path to take given the information. It was a mutually beneficial deal that Kamui just decided to not take for whatever his reasons for staying in Nohr he didn't bother to disclose. Kamui closes that possibility by refusing. Welp, back to pummeling his face back in.

Speaking of pummeling people's faces in, that seems to be Ryouma's preferred method of dealing with things. See: Shinonome recruitment, Chapter 13 post-battle vs Leon

What about Ryoma thoughts about Kamui's thoughts? He got the chance to settle this without bloodshed (which he is so adamant about) and he can heal his sick sister. In return, he will have to give up his lofty convictions. To Ryoma, that seems like a pretty good deal, but he forgot to account that there are people Kamui cares about in Nohr and that he has some kind of goal (whatever it is, it's lost to me). So Ryoma saw it like there is absolutely no reason for Kamui to side with Nohr (I believe this is emphasized alot throughout) yet felt that the disadvantageous situation (for Kamui) that occured weakened Kamui's stance enough to attempt to talk to him, something he (probably?) wouldn't try do anyway.

From my viewpoint, Ryoma took advantage of the situation. I am not saying it was a bad idea, as it would spare further conflict. But I can't really say the action isn't dirty.

[JupiterKnight]

Well, Ryoma still uses the situation for his benefit. It's true that he didn't need to move out of the way for the sake of Elise's treatment, but he did forgo his original plan to fight Kamui when he grasped the situation at hand and went "hey, I am on higher ground right now. I should make him to do what I want or he dies", essentially coercing Kamui to do what he wants. Not very honorable.

Coercion. That's what I should have used instead of blackmail. I've just been used to seeing blackmail used when someone has held a cure for a persons illness over someone in order to serve their evil scheme before.

But after watching the video, which is nice to see Nohr chapters are being translated since I've only seen the Hoshido ones, it does feel like Iago set this all up and the two royals needed to actually talk with each other instead of just being so dang stubborn.

I do agree Taka-kun that he could have done better, as honestly I do feel Ryoma would have helped Elise on Hoshido because Kamui wasn't on Nohrs side and that's likely the reason he is so dang stubborn.

And I agree that Ryoma should clearly see that Kamui has siblings he cares about in Nohr, while he has at most known the Hoshidan siblings for a day or two.

Edited September 12, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Thor Odinson]

I think we'd have to agree to disagree, then. I just don't see it as dirty.

And back to the discussion on portrayals of whether or not Marx would be villified by the game in return, I will still remind y'all that Marx was treated quite well by Nohr chapter 18.

my favorite chapter tbh because i can turn it into something beneficial to buttering the lobster in, ah, crack AUs.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[CatskillEagle]

I think we'd have to agree to disagree, then. I just don't see it as dirty.

And back to the discussion on portrayals of whether or not Marx would be villified by the game in return, I will still remind y'all that Marx was treated quite well by Nohr chapter 18.

my favorite chapter tbh because i can turn it into something beneficial to buttering the lobster in, ah, crack AUs.

What happens in chapter 18? I've only read summaries, haven't played the game.

^{_{crack AU? tell me more.}}

[Thor Odinson]

http://prevolt.tumblr.com/post/123522691616/translation-fire-emblem-if-nohr-path

Nohr 18, where we find out that Ryouma is a little vain (between yeah "my face is better than urs" and "my hair is my pride" from amie, pls, lobster, pls)

it's more or less just me making bad crack comics in which, uh, certain butter-haired paladin and certain lobster-armored trueblade do the thing where you do to butter and lobsters.

please don't take this comic seriously.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[JupiterKnight]

Zoura takes the Hoshido siblings hostage. The Nohr siblings and Kamui free them because it's a cowardly act.

Leo kills Zoura for wisely knowing that he would reveal their hand in this to his superiors.

[CatskillEagle]

http://prevolt.tumblr.com/post/123522691616/translation-fire-emblem-if-nohr-path

Nohr 18, where we find out that Ryouma is a little vain (between yeah "my face is better than urs" and "my hair is my pride" from amie, pls, lobster, pls)

it's more or less just me making bad crack comics in which, uh, certain butter-haired paladin and certain lobster-armored trueblade do the thing where you do to butter and lobsters.

please don't take this comic seriously.

That's hilarious! I wonder how it'll be localized. Oh Ryoma...^{thinking you can compare your hair to Marx's. now dearie what were you thinking.}

_{oh goodness... your comic is either going to end very badly or very, very well. also, I think I might have seen this before on tumblr, but not on your blog, make sure people aren't stealing it!}

Edited September 12, 2015 by CatskillEagle

[Thor Odinson]

That's hilarious! I wonder how it'll be localized. Oh Ryoma...^{thinking you can compare your hair to Marx's. now dearie what were you thinking.}

_{oh goodness... your comic is either going to end very badly or very, very well. also, I think I might have seen this before on tumblr, but not on your blog, make sure people aren't stealing it!}

Hey I like Ryouma's hair more longer is better for me

It's probably just reblogged off my blog, but if there's any actual art theft I'll keep an eye out!

[CatskillEagle]

Hey I like Ryouma's hair more longer is better for me

It's probably just reblogged off my blog, but if there's any actual art theft I'll keep an eye out!

Yeah, I can see that. I guess I'm a fan of mid-length hair. To be honest, they are both wonderful.

Anyway, back on topic. Is anyone making holy weapons for the sisters? I always thought it was such BS how the girls got completely skipped.

[Thor Odinson]

I agree. At least Camilla's OP or something, gameplaywise (from what I hear) but it really sucks that they got the shaft in terms of both story importance and cool-ass weapons.

[Damosel]

Personally, having someone knowingly stand in my way while I was trying to retieve medicine for an ill person who could possibly die at any moment without it; if the person did die while the stand off happened I'd consider it blood on the blocker's hands. At best it's cuplable negligence- a sin of omission, as opposed to a sin of commission. There's a big difference between a person dying of illness after you (or others) have done everything to try and care for them during that period, than leaving a sick person alone in a room without provisions to fend for themselves and coming back to find that they died. "People die of illness every day" doesn't work as well when you're personally responsible for preventing a caretaker who has the medicine from reaching said patient- since you are in essence killing them.

Not condmening Ryouma's character for being opportunistic, the dialogue makes it obvious he's there for Kamui and doesn't give two figs about sick Nohrian princesses. The issue's that the game's narrative is "Meh, everyone lived, so what's the big deal?" and treats it as a non-issue event. Hardly honorable, even if it is more an interesting context for FE's 'you will punch each other in the face and clear this map' mechanics than Ryouma just standing aside would be.

And back to the discussion on portrayals of whether or not Marx would be villified by the game in return, I will still remind y'all that Marx was treated quite well by Nohr chapter 18.

Considering this is a Nohr Route chapter, if it didn't highlight Marx's decision to fight Zoura's troops over cowardly menthods then I don't know if we would've even gotten the "at least you siblings in Nohr are cool and not completely evil" arguments. I'm not sure this is the best example for not-being-vilified-by-the-narrative since techincally you're supposed to be playing from the Nohrian POV so most on-screen character's aren't going to be hashing over Marx's decisions as opposed to in the Hoshido route where he does things like commit suicide-by-combat in refusing to back down from fighting Kamui.

Anyway, back on topic. Is anyone making holy weapons for the sisters? I always thought it was such BS how the girls got completely skipped.

I am, or at least, I'm upping the Holy Weapon count in both kingdoms so that the sisters can get their hands on one too.

I gave Hinoka the spear inspired by the Amenonuhoko legend.
I was thinking about making Garon's axe Bolverk into a Holy Weapon and having it get into Camilla's hands.
For the imouto I'm really tempted to make some non-breaking legend-level staffs, but would like to get more of an idea about what staffs are already in the game before deciding.

[Time the Crestfallen]

The big sisters should've gotten a cool weapon, the little sisters...not so much. Mostly because they focus on healing people and probably aren't old enough to be given one. As for story importance, they really do get forgotten about after awhile, which really does suck.

Edit: I guess Camilla could've gotten a Bolverk replica (Like how you get replica swords from the amibos). Not sure about Hinoka.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Phillius

[Thor Odinson]

You misunderstand my point wrt Nohr 18. The narrative treats Nohr like shit and we've established that. The question is would Marx personally be villified if he, say, decided to block you from doing the same thing to Takumi in Hoshido 17 (if he were the boss and not Iago), and there's no evidence for the game would personally villify Marx, since even with how Nohr gets hit with a bucket of shit the game still gives Marx personally some nice portrayals.

[JupiterKnight]

It could have the two youngest sisters get their own special staves. Like one that negates the negative effects of a equipped weapon for a turn or something like that.

Edited September 12, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[The DanMan]

I gave Hinoka the spear inspired by the Amenonuhoko legend.
I was thinking about making Garon's axe Bolverk into a Holy Weapon and having it get into Camilla's hands.
For the imouto I'm really tempted to make some non-breaking legend-level staffs, but would like to get more of an idea about what staffs are already in the game before deciding.

For reference:

Nohrian staves: http://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-fates/inventory/staves/

Hoshidan yumi: http://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-fates/inventory/yumi/

Edited September 12, 2015 by The DanMan

[Alazen]

I honestly have the impression that the posters holding Ryoma not just letting Kamui pass by him for Elise to get medicine are grasping at straws to find something that makes Hoshido not the shining shinyness of light it's treated as. It's not like Ryoma actually committed a war crime with the approval or enabling of other Hoshido leaders.

[JupiterKnight]

Well there is the stuff in the supports, but those have no impact on the story so they are practically a waste.

Especially the hate filled assassins that are little better than a brainwashed Hydra!Takumi and appear in the Kamui/Aqua Nohr supports. Too bad it's bog down by the "Wah I don't want to kill innocent Hoshidans who do no wrong!"

Or that Aqua got kicked out of the country just for being Nohrian, which is also glossed over. At the least Ryoma and Hinoka objected to that, but the rest didn't.

Edited September 13, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[NekoKnight]

I wonder if the legendary weapons should be tied to the story or if they should just be heirlooms of their respective kingdoms. I like the idea of Hoshido's weapons being tied to local gods and Nohr's weapons being associated with heroes of lore.

Here's some ideas for Nohr's legendary weapons.

Marx's legendary sword: Siegfried

Lore: Forged during the Age of Dark, this sword was wielded by the legendary knight Siegfried. Drawing power from the shadows, Siegfried used his sword to cut down the monsters born from Anankos' blood and established man's superiority over the land.

Camilla's legendary axe: Tiamat

Lore: Carved from the metallic scales of a great wyrm, this is one of the many weapons used by Dragonslayer Helga, a warrior so powerful that even dragons feared and hated her. Though the dragons are long dead, this weapon still carries their fiery temperament.

Leon's legondary tome: Brunhild

Lore: Formally belonging to the powerful witch, Brunhild, this tome contains powerful nature magic. Long ago, Brunhild kidnapped children for use in sinister rituals so she was hunted down by Nohrian knights. It is said that as a dying curse, Brunhild created the haunted forest with this tome.

Elise's legendary staff: Tranquility

Lore: Once carried by Saint Emyria, this staff contains the power to cure wounds and soothe the hearts of men. One day, two Nohrian princes fought for her hand in marriage and nearly split the country in two. Fearing the start of a war, Emyria ended her own life so the princes could see the folly of their ways. It's said that this staff carries the spirit of her compassion.

Edited September 13, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

Tiamat sounds like the axe version of a Wyrmslayer and Tranquility could be the opposite of a weakness staff (negates status reductions). The lore is actually really cool by the way.

[Azz]

Just a random question, but for those people who are removing Lazward, Luna and Odin, who are you replacing them with?Like are they OCs or some other characters?

I know it may be off-topic but I was just curious.

[Ryo]

I replaced Lazward, Luna and Odin with Silas, Charlotte and Benoit respectively.

[JupiterKnight]

It would be interesting if they have different origin backstories for the weapons of both. Though I imagine that both are not quite accurate. Like maybe the dragon did empower the weapons of Nohr, and Hoshido actually made it weapons as well but believe otherwise.

[NekoKnight]

Tiamat sounds like the axe version of a Wyrmslayer and Tranquility could be the opposite of a weakness staff (negates status reductions). The lore is actually really cool by the way.

Thanks. I think the lore of the weapons can add flavor to the culture and history of each nation. A theme of Nohr is that they are constantly in conflicts, either with other humans or supernatural beings. I guess this information would be accessed through that library building in My Castle.

Some ideas for Hoshido:

Ryoma's divine weapon: Raijin Katana (Thunder God Katana)

Hinoka's divine weapon: Suijin Naginata (Water God Naginata)

Takumi's divine weapon: Fuujin Yumi (Wind God Yumi)

Lore: Long ago, in the Age of Dragons, Anankos, the dark dragon fought with the holy dragon Sylvanos. Although Anankos was defeated, Sylvanos too perished. From Sylvanos was born several new gods, each representing a different aspect of the holy dragon. The Wind God breathed new life into the land, allowing all creatures to flourish. The Water God washed away the corruption in the land, leaving behind only the righteous. The Lightning God sent divine bolts down to the earth to smite those who would threaten the new land of Hoshido. It's believed that these weapons draw power from their respective deities.

Sakura's divine baton: The Yato Mirror

Lore: A sacred relic gifted to the Hoshido clan by the holy dragon, Sylvanos. Crafted from one of the scales of the dragon, this baton can ward away harmful magics from any who receive its blessing. Only the pure of heart and sound of mind can wield it.

Edited September 13, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

On an unrelated note, I've stared working out details for fixing Anankos, let me know what you guys think.

[spoiler=Anankos Character Fix. Warning: Kinda Long]


In regards to the Hoshidan/Nohrian religion posts I made earlier, some of the things mentioned are correct, some aren't and others, mostly related to the authenticity of Anankos and the Four Symbol God's divinity, are left ambiguous (The Four Symbol Dragons describe themselves as 'Godlike', but not Gods in the traditional sense of the word, while Anankos openly refers to himself as divine at several points, but also says that he isn't if he thinks it'll bother the people he's speaking to).

Creation of the World- Anankos was the first dragon to exist by a massive margin, to the point that by the time the next four dragons (Seiryū, Suzaku, Byakko and Genbu) came into existence, he was already fully grown, but he never gave them an answer for how old he was or what his life was like before they existed. Anankos and the others did more or less shape the world into what it is today, but Anankos hadn't finished by the time the four symbol dragons came into being and empowered them so that they could take over for him. The Eleven Animal Gods weren't a thing, but they the animals that Anankos chose to preserve as the basis for terrestrial life in the world (Genbu was the only one who bothered with aquatic life).

Dragon Wars- Due to Seiryū, Suzaku, Byakko and Genbu being quite old, they tend to sleep for thousands of years at a time and miss out on important events, which is why they remember things differently. One of the reveals of the story is that there were actually two dragon wars; one before the humans evolved, and one were the humans were manipulated and used as canon fodder. Genbu slept through the first war while Suzaku, Seiryū and Byakko slept through the second. The first happened because quite a few of the early dragons succumbed to their destructive urges and attacked their own kind and the second because the Dark Dragons were jealous of the favouritism that Anankos showed the humans. Also, the humans were enslaved by Dragons (as said in the Nohr religion), but it was only the Dark Dragons who enslaved them and they simply shifted the blame onto Anankos so that they'd be willing to fight.

Empowerment of Humans- Both the Nohrian, Hoshidan and Touman families are descendant from him, albeit very distantly. The Light and Dark Dragons were the ones who took human mates, but the Light and Dark Dragons themselves are descendant from him, while the Royal Family of Touma (who's Kingdom resides in an alternate dimension) got their powers through the same way that Kamui was conceived (detailed below).

The backstory- When he started going insane, Anankos either couldn't or refused to become a spirit. In terms of his possible divinity, Kōryū (and the Animal Gods) moved from the spirit world to the material world, their spirit didn't inhabit a physical body, their spirits simply took a physical form. Thus, he couldn't leave his body because he didn't have a body to leave. Alternatively, he's implied to be afraid of dying and selfishly chose not to in favour of trying to prevent himself from going insane. When Anankos destroyed the forest and earned the animosity of the people of Touma, the King (who wielded the Yato) neglected to gather the four holy weapons (which were entrusted to Nohr and Hoshido so that they could only be gathered in times of need) and chose to try and talk him down instead (with predictable results).

After the death of the Touman King and his body split, his good half used the majority of it's power to temporarily bind him in place and fled back to the capitol, were he, Shenmei and Mikoto (who he had been in a relationship with since she was nineteen) and had them summon the rulers of Nohr and Hoshido (the royalty of the two countries actually knowing about Touma, but no-one else). Once everyone was present, good!Anankos explained the situation and that a half-dragon child was needed in order to combat him as only someone descendant of dragons would be strong enough to fight him (in theory, anyone with Dragon's Vein would do, but the blood of the royal families had been diluted too much to meet the requirements). He chose Mikoto to be the mother, but because dragons aren't very fertile and him personally 'not being into such things', he was unable to do get her pregnant himself and Sumeragi was chosen to be the surrogate father.

Good!Anankos then took the two of them to one of the Astral Realms (like the ones where the children were raised) and had her drink the potions he gave to the Awakening Trio in Invisible History the entire time she was pregnant (like real-life Mitochondrial Donating) so that, when he was born, Kamui was genetically the child of Sumeragi and Mikoto (making them the half-sibling of Ryoma and Hinoka, but blood-siblings with Takumi and Sakura, as Mikoto is their birth mother in my version) while still being half-dragon. Once they emerged, insane!Anankos had broken the spell that bound him and was wrecking the Capitol of Touma. Good!Anankos then sent Mikoto, Shenmei and the Nohrian/Hoshidan royals back to their world (but not before the first Queen of Hoshido was killed). And then Invisible History and the main-game happens.

The plan- After the original split, Anankos did have the destroy everything approach to human life, but after good!Anankos was absorbed, he changed his goal to the 'Dragon Man's Burden' suggestion I've seen before on another forum. In the simplest of terms, he no longer believes that humans can lead themselves and considers it his responsibility to save them from themselves. The way Kamui factors into his plan is that while he considers himself the only one who can actually rule the world properly, he is also aware that his age (being potentially 1-3 billion years old) and power (if he isn't a literal god, he is at least as powerful as one, as long as he keeps the Fire Emblem as far away from himself as possible) makes him too far removed from his subjects to understand them and he plans to create several half-dragon 'children' to act as a bridge between himself and the human race.

Personality- Anankos before he was overtaken by his instincts and good!Anankos are generally nice people, but have a very limited understanding of human emotion and perspective (good!Anankos completely fails to understand why Shenmei is upset at him for her husbands death, since he was technically not responsible for that or why Ecatarina doesn't approve of Garon's womanising ways, to the point were he states that he wouldn't be upset if Mikoto slept with someone else). When his body reabsorbs his good half after discarding his insanity, these traits are cranked up to eleven making him a full-on sociopath (lack of empathy, low tolerance for frustration, manipulative, shallow emotions and unable to admit that he has flaws). Also, despite the fact that he claims to love Kamui, this falls apart considering that he had him abused as an attempt to make him more compliant towards his plans and has no problems with killing them when it becomes clear that he won't be a part of it. Also, the Fire Emblem scares the hell out of him, mostly because a) it's the only thing that can realistically harm him and b) the Fire Emblem is Kryptonite to Dragons, as simply being in its presence weakens them considerably.

Thoughts?

Edited September 13, 2015 by Phillius

[JupiterKnight]

I like it. I do feel that the whole "He's too powerful" could be why he was unable to become a spirit. His power was too great and in a way traps him in his body.

I do feel that not all of the Dark Dragons should willingly play a part in the war, but the ones that took part forced the remaining ones with a join or die ultimatum and were greatly outnumbered by both the Dark Dragons enemies and the Dark Dragons that sought war.