General US Politics

[Dr. Tarrasque]

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But everyone already knew that during the last election. Doesn't matter how bad Clinton was. Everyone already knew Trump was an openly corrupt, inept buffoon who hated America's allies but loved dictatorships. Everyone knew but still people stayed home or even voted for Trump. ''The election of the century, of your lifetimes, something vital to saving the country from ruin'' has already happened and the result wasn't particularly flattering for the American electorate. 

This is incorrect. You have to remember that some people who voted for Trump had previously voted for Obama and voted for the Orange Turd because of their disdain for the current establishment that does little for the working people and while many folks were able to see Trump for the racist piece of shit con man that he is (specially people who lived in NY), some foolishly thought it was just an act during the election because elections typically boil down to just mud-slinging and making promises you'll never keep. You also had most of the media basically saying that there's no way Trump would win so it can be said that lots of voters became complacent and didn't vote because they believed the media. Lastly, Trump's worse impulses are contained by the his prospects of getting reelected to maintain power and continue to fend off against the many criminal charges that await him from SDNY when he's no longer president.

The 2020 election on the other hand, puts Trump into power yet again if he wins it and removes the shackles placed upon his decision making by the prospect of reelection. The fool's been fucking up with North Korea and U.S Attacking Iran would be something on Putin's wish-list which Trump has shown he has no qualms fulfilling as he and his supporters in congress are now parroting Russian propaganda about the 2016 elections, the man may start another pointless war or even lead to WW3 with how unstable he is. Reelection will increase right-wing domestic terrorism in the country and even Trump's FBI has show it's the most common source of terrorism currently in the country in recent years. The man's also shown a lot of growing instability in his thinking so with reelection, Trump will increase his fascist rhetoric and look to locking up members of Congress which may have support from the GOP in order to save their own hides (ie Devin Nunes to sweep his Ukraine involvement under the rug).

Hell, his supporters are already promising a Civil War if impeachment and removal is successful, they may follow that up if Trump loses reelection anyway and if it does come about, you definitely don't want Trump to still be commander-in-chief. Regardless of which candidate ends up being President, everyone seen what President Trump actually is and while some welcome the wannabe dictator to become our dictator, I doubt that sentiment is welcomed by more than 33% of the country.

 

TLDR: 2016 was about keeping the shitty establishment candidate or going for the shitty racist con man that's an outsider. 

2020 is about removing this fascist wannabe dictator or letting the Southern Strategy have its strongest chance of truly damaging the country.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Tryhard]

I know it's peanuts compared to things that actually matter, but can we just marvel at the fact that Republicans go around saying this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-impeachment-speech-merry-christmas-nancy-pelosi-turning-point-usa-a9256866.html

For all the stereotypical talk about liberals being snowflakes and victims, this is probably the most textbook example of this phenomenon ever. There are more people that celebrate Christmas than Christians in the US, and I have seen literally no-one that actually would reprimand you for saying merry christmas, wtf?

Edited December 22, 2019 by Tryhard

[Dr. Tarrasque]

6 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I know it's peanuts compared to things that actually matter, but can we just marvel at the fact that Republicans go around saying this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-impeachment-speech-merry-christmas-nancy-pelosi-turning-point-usa-a9256866.html

For all the stereotypical talk about liberals being snowflakes and victims, this is probably the most textbook example of this phenomenon ever. There are more people that celebrate Christmas than Christians in the US, and I have seen literally no-one that actually would reprimand you for saying merry christmas, wtf?

It's also part of their of political correctness. It all works because Republicans have made playing victim a more popular sport than Baseball or American Football and for whatever reason, "Happy Holidays" is an attack on Christmas.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Etrurian emperor]

29 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

This is incorrect. You have to remember that some people who voted for Trump had previously voted for Obama and voted for the Orange Turd because of their disdain for the current establishment that does little for the working people and while many folks were able to see Trump for the racist piece of shit con man that he is (specially people who lived in NY), some foolishly thought it was just an act during the election because elections typically boil down to just mud-slinging and making promises you'll never keep.

That doesn't really matter though. It doesn't matter that they have both real and imagined slights against that gosh darn establishment. What matters is that somehow they thought that mulling over those slights was far more important than doing right by the country. If its a choice between the establishment and some rogue demagogue then the rogue demagogue is always worse. 

Staying home and hoping it all works out is always a risk. In the last election those that did so took the risk despite the stakes being much higher. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Etrurian emperor

[Excellen Browning]

6 hours ago, eclipse said:

Hell yes, thanks for the link!

My state has a thing against white supremacy.  As in, someone who had hints of supporting it was immediately thrown out of the candidacy (local level).  Yet 28% of my state voted Trump in the last election.  Yes, that kind of stupid exists.  It's universal.

What I got from your post was that you were thinking about getting involved in the democrat candidacy race, and I was arguing for it. I wasn't really making a point about stupidity.

[Slumber]

13 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Staying home and hoping it all works out is always a risk. In the last election those that did so took the risk despite the stakes being much higher. 

I know plenty of people in Michigan and Wisconsin who really felt like shit for not voting.

[eclipse]

On 12/22/2019 at 3:33 PM, Excellen Browning said:

What I got from your post was that you were thinking about getting involved in the democrat candidacy race, and I was arguing for it. I wasn't really making a point about stupidity.

Still have some time, so I'm going to see how the field shapes up.  Pretty sure I'm not voting Biden, but everything else is in the air.

20 hours ago, Slumber said:

I know plenty of people in Michigan and Wisconsin who really felt like shit for not voting.

If they show up and vote in both the primaries and general elections, that should make up for their earlier absence.

[Shoblongoo]

Biden’s not my first, second, or third choice for the primary. But if it’s Trump v. Biden in the general, he’s got my vote 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[Excellen Browning]

I would definitely vote Sanders or Warren before Biden. But I'd vote Biden over Bloomberg, and Trump.

[eclipse]

9 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Biden’s not my first, second, or third choice for the primary. But if it’s Trump v. Biden in the general, he’s got my vote 

 

3 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

I would definitely vote Sanders or Warren before Biden. But I'd vote Biden over Bloomberg, and Trump.

It means it came down to Biden vs. Trump.  And that's the scenario I don't want.

. . .not that the Democratic candidates are helping.  I think Buttigeg (or however his name is spelled) got funding from the health insurances and flipped his stance or something like that, and my hometown girl put in a "present" vote for impeachment.

[Lewyn]

On 12/22/2019 at 11:21 AM, XRay said:

Being hated or disliked is not enough to drive people to vote. Hopefully, Millennial turnout can reach 60%, but that is being really generous. If you want people to vote, you need to expose them to danger or have some kind of immediate effect they can feel.

The only reason some of my non consistent voter friends are thinking about voting is because they have a direct and visible financial gain from voting for Andrew Yang. Trade wars, discrimination, deregulation, infrastructure investment, etc. honestly does not impact their life much, at least not very noticeably, so they just do not care about those issues enough to vote on it until they have been directly impacted.

Well I think in 2016, people thought yeah Trump is an idiot but of course Congress will keep in check, the Judiciary branch will keep in check.  Well the the vast majority of the GOP are his slaves, he rules the Senate, and he has shifted the courts heavily into extreme Conservatism appointing many judges who are underqualified yesmen for him.  Presidents often nominate moderates on their side, that are highly qualified and deserving of the position.  So one man rules the Senate and the Supreme court and many of the lower courts.  I think now people know that Trump cause he is able to do almost whatever he wants unchecked is a major issue.  It isn't just a crazy evil fool, but a crazy evil fool with almost supreme rule.  

On 12/22/2019 at 1:30 PM, Tryhard said:

I know it's peanuts compared to things that actually matter, but can we just marvel at the fact that Republicans go around saying this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-impeachment-speech-merry-christmas-nancy-pelosi-turning-point-usa-a9256866.html

For all the stereotypical talk about liberals being snowflakes and victims, this is probably the most textbook example of this phenomenon ever. There are more people that celebrate Christmas than Christians in the US, and I have seen literally no-one that actually would reprimand you for saying merry christmas, wtf?

Republicans are the biggest snowflakes ever, and play the victim card more than anyone.  

11 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Biden’s not my first, second, or third choice for the primary. But if it’s Trump v. Biden in the general, he’s got my vote 

There are 329.45 million people in the US according to US Census Bureau, bet at least 300 million of those would make a better president than Trump.

Trump vs Biden?  Biden

Trump vs a coat rack? Coat rack

 

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

my hometown girl put in a "present" vote for impeachment.

Yeah, I've gathered that Hawaii isn't very happy with her over that. The fact that she did that while representing one of the bluest states in the country makes it obvious she has some sort of agenda. Her bizarre "I think Trump is guilty, but I had to vote "Present" because I could only vote "Yes" if I thought he was guilty" explanation definitely didn't make anything better.

But I'm in the same boat on Biden. There are probably 1000 people within my city I'd vote for before Biden, but he's the nuclear option. If it's him... then I'll have to bite the bullet. And I thought voting Hillary last time was the biggest bullet I'd have to bite, but I'd vote for Hillary 10x over Biden. And I'd still vote Biden 100x over Trump.

The election is fucked if it comes to that.

[Shoblongoo]

Gabbard came at Kamala Harris harder than she goes after Trump

[eclipse]

8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Trump vs Biden?  Biden

Trump vs a coat rack? Coat rack

Biden vs. a coat rack would be a vote for the coat rack. ;/

7 hours ago, Slumber said:

Yeah, I've gathered that Hawaii isn't very happy with her over that. The fact that she did that while representing one of the bluest states in the country makes it obvious she has some sort of agenda. Her bizarre "I think Trump is guilty, but I had to vote "Present" because I could only vote "Yes" if I thought he was guilty" explanation definitely didn't make anything better.

But I'm in the same boat on Biden. There are probably 1000 people within my city I'd vote for before Biden, but he's the nuclear option. If it's him... then I'll have to bite the bullet. And I thought voting Hillary last time was the biggest bullet I'd have to bite, but I'd vote for Hillary 10x over Biden. And I'd still vote Biden 100x over Trump.

The election is fucked if it comes to that.

I'm lucky enough to be in a state where actively trashing Trump is an election strategy that works, so if it comes down to Biden vs. Trump, I'm voting third party.  Again.  I can't see my state going red short of 75% of the population coming down with food poisoning.

Hence why I'm on the fence about the primary election.  If there's a Democratic candidate I don't mind, then I'll most likely vote for them.

[Lewyn]

On 12/24/2019 at 11:33 PM, eclipse said:

Biden vs. a coat rack would be a vote for the coat rack. ;/

I'm lucky enough to be in a state where actively trashing Trump is an election strategy that works, so if it comes down to Biden vs. Trump, I'm voting third party.  Again.  I can't see my state going red short of 75% of the population coming down with food poisoning.

Hence why I'm on the fence about the primary election.  If there's a Democratic candidate I don't mind, then I'll most likely vote for them.

Ouch.  Though I agree Biden is one of my lesser favorites, though he is one of the ones with the best chance of beating Trump and for me that is the most important thing.  Trump dominated the republican primaries not cause of great policy ideas, plans, eloquent speechs, he did just because of straight up trash talk and brutal insults the like of which is rarely seen in politics.  Nothing was off the table, attacking peoples kids/wives, etc.  He won by being a bully.  Who's more popular the bully or the victim?  The bully.  So whoever wins the democrat primary has to be able to return fire strong.  

Biden can certainly do that.  Bloomberg can, Bernie can.  

[eclipse]

21 hours ago, Lewyn said:

Ouch.  Though I agree Biden is one of my lesser favorites, though he is one of the ones with the best chance of beating Trump and for me that is the most important thing.  Trump dominated the republican primaries not cause of great policy ideas, plans, eloquent speechs, he did just because of straight up trash talk and brutal insults the like of which is rarely seen in politics.  Nothing was off the table, attacking peoples kids/wives, etc.  He won by being a bully.  Who's more popular the bully or the victim?  The bully.  So whoever wins the democrat primary has to be able to return fire strong.  

Biden can certainly do that.  Bloomberg can, Bernie can.  

Trump is good at sound bites, and at being so outlandish that the media focuses on him.  Thus, we talk about him more.

As much as I think Bernie will be good for America, I also feel that he's going to widen the rift even further - not because he's a bad guy, but because many of the things he stands for are counter to what the Republican base wants.  Thus, it'll cause people to dig their heels in further, just because they're two extremes.  And IMO, I think it's the swing states that'll dig their heels in for Trump, because the kind of change Bernie is proposing is scary (not to those of us who understand how other first-world countries operate, but still).

[Quiyonce]

48 minutes ago, eclipse said:

And IMO, I think it's the swing states that'll dig their heels in for Trump, because the kind of change Bernie is proposing is scary (not to those of us who understand how other first-world countries operate, but still)

Yeah, I have more faith that Biden, and maybe even Warren, have a better chance of beating Tr*mp over Bernie. Which is a shame because the States need an overhaul of healthcare and college education immediately and, as of now, I can only see that happening under Bernie...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

As much as I think Bernie will be good for America, I also feel that he's going to widen the rift even further - not because he's a bad guy, but because many of the things he stands for are counter to what the Republican base wants.  Thus, it'll cause people to dig their heels in further, just because they're two extremes.  And IMO, I think it's the swing states that'll dig their heels in for Trump, because the kind of change Bernie is proposing is scary (not to those of us who understand how other first-world countries operate, but still).

Examples?

[eclipse]

9 hours ago, Quiyonce said:

Yeah, I have more faith that Biden, and maybe even Warren, have a better chance of beating Tr*mp over Bernie. Which is a shame because the States need an overhaul of healthcare and college education immediately and, as of now, I can only see that happening under Bernie...

Win the election or do what's best for America's laws.  This. . .isn't easy at all.

9 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Examples?

Let's start with Medicare for All.  Which is a huge turnaround from having everyone pay for health insurance.

[Excellen Browning]

we ain't no gosh darned socialists in this here country! *Shakes fist*

Edited December 29, 2019 by Excellen Browning

[Slumber]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Let's start with Medicare for All.  Which is a huge turnaround from having everyone pay for health insurance.

The majority of Americans support Medicare for All, as in the government providing healthcare.

The only touchy subject in their eyes is MfA being the only option, as there are weirdos out there who don't want privatized medicine to go away, but still want people to have MfA(Like Mayor Pete)... even though pretty much all of the problems our health system has can pretty much all be traced back to the privatization of healthcare.

So yes, you're correct in that Bernie's taking the unpopular stance overall(Though I wouldn't call 41% support among all Americans as that "scary" of a proposition for the American public), but I really think a lot of it comes down to the messaging. People will almost always oppose the removal of options, no matter how detrimental one of those options is.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Slumber

[Shoblongoo]

Don’t need to completely get rid of private options to have MFA—just have to have the public option available to everyone. I’m fine with Mayor Pete’s plan.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Shoblongoo

[Excellen Browning]

Healthcare costs need to go down dramatically, and insurers need to be forced to start paying out for healthcare like they're supposed to. If this outcome can be reached via legislation and imposing some government control over the healthcare industry, that's fine as well. 

[eclipse]

10 hours ago, Slumber said:

The majority of Americans support Medicare for All, as in the government providing healthcare.

The only touchy subject in their eyes is MfA being the only option, as there are weirdos out there who don't want privatized medicine to go away, but still want people to have MfA(Like Mayor Pete)... even though pretty much all of the problems our health system has can pretty much all be traced back to the privatization of healthcare.

So yes, you're correct in that Bernie's taking the unpopular stance overall(Though I wouldn't call 41% support among all Americans as that "scary" of a proposition for the American public), but I really think a lot of it comes down to the messaging. People will almost always oppose the removal of options, no matter how detrimental one of those options is.

The last election highlighted the issue of electoral votes and whatnot.  The ones in the states that have an uneven ratio of electoral votes are the ones that need to be convinced - and that's just one of the "wait this isn't like the America I grew up in!" things that Bernie's proposing.

I gave a single example because it's easier to dissect.  Bernie's site has a longer list of things he stands for.  Put them all together, and the government would take on a lot more burden than it has.  For those that want the government out of their personal business, it's threatening.

[Lewyn]

The government forces us to pay taxes, so the question is what one wants those taxes to be used for.  Republican presidents increase the deficit as much or more than Democrat presidents, what do the people get?  More social programs cut, education cut, EPA cuts, largely for more military spending.  I'd rather have it go towards healthcare and education which frankly suck in this country.  I think Public option, where people can keep private insurance is the easiest and best way to go at least at the beginning.  

As for the candidates, yes far left ones will divide the country more but I am not concerned about that.  The progressive ones will institute or (attempt) huge changes that should vastly fix/improve big issues like healthcare/education that have plagued the country for decades.  Then once it is so much better, even the naysayers will have to admit the Republican fear mongering was all BS.  Just like with ACA which is now supported by vast majority of people (Though Republicans still trying to take it down like the supervillains they are.