General US Politics

[Lord Raven]

Where are the Trump supporters at in this thread anyway?

I don't want to ping them because I'm really wary of pinging, but there are like 5-6 people who come to mind and post like once, then leave when 5 people refute the point in 5 different ways.

I still feel bad for those guys, but I mean not everyone has a stellar education/critical thinking skills, and some people in this thread tried to apply critical thinking but ended up using it in some very flawed ways (which is basically assuming, in the end, that Trump was speaking in good faith, which he really wasn't).

Also, as for the dems; I was referring specifically to the presidency barring some sort of Trump meltdown that gets him impeached or gets him to step down. In a lot of ways I think the Republican Party is doing their own thing on the sidelines to ensure that they can screw people over and they let Trump do whatever, and then when everyone' pissed they just impeach Trump and they start anew with Pence (so regular people can pin the blame on Trump). I have no faith in them reclaiming congress though, unless they somehow manage to expedite movements in the next year?

I mean, it's clear by the fact that people vote for a monolithic republican party in Congress that there's not much that can be done short of a nationwide movement to remove gerrymandering.

[Radiant head]

On 1/26/2017 at 6:11 PM, Excellen Browning said:

There is no way a foreign policy led by Donald J Trump will not end in tears.

that's true for all us presidents though

obama killed a lot of innocent people

Edited January 28, 2017 by Radiant head

[Rezzy]

44 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

You'd think that people would be more wary about trusting someone who keeps on bragging about how they have great plans for something, but has never given any concrete details on said amazing plans whatsoever. Doesn't that just seem like a red flag for someone who's trying to stall for an excuse that they obviously don't have at all?

Ouch. Maybe it's something that can't really be taught ... ;/

Looking at people talking about education circa 200 years ago, Logic was a subject unto itself, so I guess they thought people being able to make sound arguments was something important back then.  I'm not sure why it seems to have been phased out over the years.

 

For the "It's only bad when they do it" argument, all these Executive Orders reminded me of this SNL parody from a few years ago.Executive Orders School House Rock! (How do you get videos to show up, now, anyway?)

Executive Orders becoming the primary means of legislation is concerning.  It's coming back to bite the Dems, since it's a lot easier for Trump to overturn EOs than it is to overturn legislation.  But that also means that if the Dems gain power in 4 or 8 years, than can just EO away Trump's EOs.

Congress should really be the branch of government that institutes law.

 

[Radiant head]

37 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

For the "It's only bad when they do it" argument, all these Executive Orders reminded me of this SNL parody from a few years ago.Executive Orders School House Rock! (How do you get videos to show up, now, anyway?)

i would say it really is only bad when they do it, they being the theocratic sociopaths that are the gop.  

the problem here is that politics isn't some kind of technocratic debate of ideas, the way dems seem to think of it.  it's a struggle for power.  the far right in america understands this, which is why they tried to block obama from passing anything, and why they're exercising power by any means necessary, especially if that means using executive orders where possible to get around a gridlocked congress. the sooner liberals learn that this is real life and not the west wing, the better. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Radiant head

[Rezzy]

21 minutes ago, Radiant head said:

i would say it really is only bad when they do it, they being the theocratic sociopaths that are the gop.  

the problem here is that politics isn't some kind of technocratic debate of ideas, the way dems seem to think of it.  it's a struggle for power.  the far right in america understands this, which is why they tried to block obama from passing anything, and why they're exercising power by any means necessary, especially if that means using executive orders where possible to get around a gridlocked congress. the sooner liberals learn that this is real life and not the west wing, the better. 

Both parties are pretty politically savvy, and the power goes in cycles.  Last time the Dems suffered major defeats, Howard Dean started the 50 State Plan, and they gained both houses of Congress and the presidency in a few years.  The Dems understood the game early in Obama's presidency, when they had full control, then weakened the filibuster when they lost their 60 seat majority.  They just failed to foresee the bad consequences it might have, for when they lost power.

[Radiant head]

i think you're underplaying how massive their losses are though.  the last time they have been locked out of so many branches of government was probably the reconstruction era.

[Christianguy7]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Replace every instance of Christianity with Islam, and you'd have an equally bad time.  This isn't something exclusive to Christianity, this is the groundwork for any fundamentalist religious movement.  The Democratic side doesn't have ant sort of fundamentalist movement like that (thank goodness).

Not all Christians think we should out breed everyone else. (Not saying you guys did.) I've been a Christian for almost 4 1/2 years, and I have seen a lot of crazies claiming that what their doing Christ commanded. Nope. A lot of people that claim a lot of the crazy stuff, don't know what the Bible says or have fallen prey to some sort of cult movement. (there is a lot of cults out there, that have changed the core beliefs of a religion, and claim to be the "true" followers of it.)  Acts 20:29 says " I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock." That's happening a lot with a lot of so called Christians. This is why people think Churches are money frauds, or people trying to trick others into doing their will. Matthew 7:15 says " "Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves." These are the people that are getting on tv, and telling you to send them money for God's favor. I don't like a lot of TV pastors, because it's hard to trust them, because a lot of them look at Christianity like a ATM. Christianity was never meant to be a political revolution. In fact Jesus often told people to keep, his identity as the Messiah to themselves, and to tell no one, until after his resurrection, because he knew the people would forcibly make him thier political leader, because the wanted someone to stop Rome. Jews thought the Messiah would be a God-King come to destroy their enemies, and they would force Jesus to be that if they could. He never wanted that. Instead Jesus wanted a spiritual revolution, not a political one. 

[Tryhard]

I think more Christians, especially those who are passing laws in the name of their religion (under the guise of 'religious freedom') in a supposedly secular country, need to read Matthew 25:31-46. Considering what the GOP stance on helping the neediest people is (or more accurately the lack of it) instead of demanding they pull themselves up by the bootstraps when they desperately need help, I would say that they are not following its teachings so well.

The GOP are uniquely terrible. Some of the more religious are theocratic and perhaps dominionists, like Ted Cruz who essentially wants to implement the equivalent of Sharia Law for Christians, never mind the fact they consider their biggest enemy to be Muslims who would want to do the same. I don't like our conservatives in my country at all, but I would take them over the GOP ten times out of ten. At least they leave religion outside of politics for the most part.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Tryhard

[Lord Raven]

22 minutes ago, Christianguy7 said:

Not all Christians think we should out breed everyone else. (Not saying you guys did.) I've been a Christian for almost 4 1/2 years, and I have seen a lot of crazies claiming that what their doing Christ commanded. Nope. A lot of people that claim a lot of the crazy stuff, don't know what the Bible says or have fallen prey to some sort of cult movement. (there is a lot of cults out there, that have changed the core beliefs of a religion, and claim to be the "true" followers of it.)  Acts 20:29 says " I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock." That's happening a lot with a lot of so called Christians. This is why people think Churches are money frauds, or people trying to trick others into doing their will. Matthew 7:15 says " "Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves." These are the people that are getting on tv, and telling you to send them money for God's favor. I don't like a lot of TV pastors, because it's hard to trust them, because a lot of them look at Christianity like a ATM. Christianity was never meant to be a political revolution. In fact Jesus often told people to keep, his identity as the Messiah to themselves, and to tell no one, until after his resurrection, because he knew the people would forcibly make him thier political leader, because the wanted someone to stop Rome. Jews thought the Messiah would be a God-King come to destroy their enemies, and they would force Jesus to be that if they could. He never wanted that. Instead Jesus wanted a spiritual revolution, not a political one. 

Republicans aren't televangelists. Nobody is arguing that. They're arguably more sinister, because televangelists screw over less people.

I don't really know what point you're making, though.

[Christianguy7]

1 minute ago, Lord Raven said:

Republicans aren't televangelists. Nobody is arguing that. They're arguably more sinister, because televangelists screw over less people.

I don't really know what point you're making, though.

I was going on the article that Eclipse posted earlier.

[Lord Raven]

1 minute ago, Christianguy7 said:

I was going on the article that Eclipse posted earlier.

Okay so I just realized your point because I remember reading that article before Res linked it. Not all Christians are like that, but there's a pretty large amount of religious and ideological education that actively gets in the way of keeping a populace informed as well as open to other ways of life. It actually entrenches the idea of bigotry during their formative years.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Lord Raven

[Rezzy]

24 minutes ago, Radiant head said:

i think you're underplaying how massive their losses are though.  the last time they have been locked out of so many branches of government was probably the reconstruction era.

For Federal government, at least, the GOP had similar or better majorities in both houses of Congress, as well as the Presidency and Supreme Court from 2003-2006.

[Radiant head]

similar but not to this extent, see the state legislatures and governor seats as well. the gop is close to being able to rewrite the constitution at will. 

anyway the point is, politics isn't really about trying to play "fair" or whatever.  

Edited January 28, 2017 by Radiant head

[Rezzy]

2 minutes ago, Radiant head said:

similar but not to this extent, see the state legislatures and governor seats as well. the gop is close to being able to rewrite the constitution at will. 

anyway the point is, politics isn't really about trying to play "fair" or whatever.  

True, but don't underestimate the ability for that to flip.  From 2009-2010, the Dems and GOP had their roles roughly reversed.  It's a far way off right now, but if the GOP's moves get rejected by the populace, they'll lose power within 4 years.

[Christianguy7]

7 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Okay so I just realized your point because I remember reading that article before Res linked it. Not all Christians are like that, but there's a pretty large amount of religious and ideological education that actively gets in the way of keeping a populace informed as well as open to other ways of life. It actually entrenches the idea of bigotry during their formative years.

Not all of is are bigots. Jesus taught to love everyone. A friend of mine is bi-sexual, and I don't see him as any less of a person because of that. My cousin is a drag queen, and I still love him, and wouldn't mine hanging out with him. The problem with a lot of Christians is that some have been taught the "us vs them: mentality, that does promote bigotry, and hatred. I disagree with lifestyle choices, and I'll tell you what I believe, and why, but at the end of the day, Jesus wants everyone to make a choice. He's not going to force himself on people and b an extent Christians shouldn't ram theology down other peoples throats. I have friends that come from all sorts of ideas, and backgrounds, and I would like them to become Christians yes, but if they don't want to then so be it. Everyone has free will. 

[Lord Raven]

10 minutes ago, Christianguy7 said:

Not all of is are bigots. Jesus taught to love everyone. A friend of mine is bi-sexual, and I don't see him as any less of a person because of that. My cousin is a drag queen, and I still love him, and wouldn't mine hanging out with him. The problem with a lot of Christians is that some have been taught the "us vs them: mentality, that does promote bigotry, and hatred. I disagree with lifestyle choices, and I'll tell you what I believe, and why, but at the end of the day, Jesus wants everyone to make a choice. He's not going to force himself on people and b an extent Christians shouldn't ram theology down other peoples throats. I have friends that come from all sorts of ideas, and backgrounds, and I would like them to become Christians yes, but if they don't want to then so be it. Everyone has free will. 

You missed the point. The point is that there are a lot of states and areas where they preach what amounts to bigotry to kids under the guise of religion. This does not mean that I am demeaning people of a religion; my mom is a religious Muslim and she is very tolerant of people of different sexual preferences and race. These are compatible things. This is irrelevant to the fact that the Republican Party has praised private schooling (which they do not actually hold the same degrees of accountability towards in comparison to public schools) and tried to cut public school funding simply on the grounds of being able to spread hate and rally a voter base to keep them in power under the guise of a culture war.

I am not saying religion is toxic so much as stating that the party has been toxic as a whole. They also do not represent the ideals that you preach and they encourage intolerance (indirectly, mind you). I have no doubt in my mind that you use religion in a constructive and ultimately kind manner like many people do, the article (and I) are saying that the foundation of the Republican Party does not use religion in that manner.

I personally believe they're much worse than televangelists.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Lord Raven

[Nym]

Wow, that reminds me of those only English speakers in Canada that only vote the ''Parti Libéral'' no matter what. Even if 4 or 5 years or more before the election, the chief would do something stupid or disrespectful towards the population and after, they dare complain.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Nym

[Res]

I was afraid the article I posted would be misunderstood and it has been. I was careful to write fundamentalist Christians because I recognize that not all Christians are like that (and I didn't think I'd need to clarify that point)... I know plenty of Christians who are democrats or who voted Trump for other reasons entirely. The article focuses on a very specific sect that wields considerable political power for all the reasons it states, and how that sect's goal is a theocratic government. Also, what Lord Raven says.

[Rezzy]

21 minutes ago, Nym said:

Wow, that reminds me of those only English speakers in Canada that only vote the ''Parti Libéral'' no matter what. Even if 4 or 5 years or more before the election, the chief would do something stupid or direspectful towards the population and after, they dare complain.

AH, Canada has invaded the thread!  Just kidding, Nym. :D

To go along with party devotion, I was a bit disappointed by third party showing in the November election.  Between the Libertarians, Green Party, and Evan McMullin, third parties got the highest support since Perot, but they really failed to capitalize on challenging the weakest main party nominees in decades.  I was really hoping we could have had a party at least crack the 5% mark and have a viable third party for future elections.

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, Christianguy7 said:

Not all Christians think we should out breed everyone else. (Not saying you guys did.) I've been a Christian for almost 4 1/2 years, and I have seen a lot of crazies claiming that what their doing Christ commanded. Nope. A lot of people that claim a lot of the crazy stuff, don't know what the Bible says or have fallen prey to some sort of cult movement. (there is a lot of cults out there, that have changed the core beliefs of a religion, and claim to be the "true" followers of it.)  Acts 20:29 says " I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock." That's happening a lot with a lot of so called Christians. This is why people think Churches are money frauds, or people trying to trick others into doing their will. Matthew 7:15 says " "Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves." These are the people that are getting on tv, and telling you to send them money for God's favor. I don't like a lot of TV pastors, because it's hard to trust them, because a lot of them look at Christianity like a ATM. Christianity was never meant to be a political revolution. In fact Jesus often told people to keep, his identity as the Messiah to themselves, and to tell no one, until after his resurrection, because he knew the people would forcibly make him thier political leader, because the wanted someone to stop Rome. Jews thought the Messiah would be a God-King come to destroy their enemies, and they would force Jesus to be that if they could. He never wanted that. Instead Jesus wanted a spiritual revolution, not a political one. 

And I've been Christian for longer than you've been alive.  Regardless, there's always THAT movement, the one that completely ignores the "love everyone" message, and instead aims to impose its will on everyone instead.  I'm well aware that there's Christians who aren't fundamentalists (or those who are but keep out of government), but those that are taking actual steps to turn America into a Christian theocracy are no different than religious extremists in any other country/religion.

One of them is our vice-president.

[Thane]

I apologize if this has been posted before, but I was procrastinating on imgur and saw this image: http://imgur.com/gallery/3Skgp

Can anyone here verify that tweet?

[Radiant head]

 

 

[BBM]

Pretty sure the GOP game here is to impeach Trump at some point and then install Pence as President lol.

It was difficult for me to understand how Republicans could have voted for Trump until Trump's first week to be honest. It took that to make me realize how little empathy they have and how hypocritical they are. That Pence tweet above is one, Trump voters being okay with him having a private email server while lambasting Hillary for it is another.

Paul Ryan tweeting about making sure the millions of lives lost in the Holocaust never happens again while Trump signs an executive order banning refugees is probably the height of it, so far anyways.

That last EO also bans American permanent residents/green card holders if they happen to be in any of the 7 targeted Muslim countries at the moment by the way...

[Water Mage]

49 minutes ago, Radiant head said:

 

 

To be fair they did fuck up with the muslim ban already.

Some of the muslims banned were an iraq spy who worked for the US for years and the other was simply an director who was going to attend the Oscar event.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Water Mage

[Res]

40 minutes ago, BBM said:

Paul Ryan tweeting about making sure the millions of lives lost in the Holocaust never happens again while Trump signs an executive order banning refugees is probably the height of it, so far anyways.

That last EO also bans American permanent residents/green card holders if they happen to be in any of the 7 targeted Muslim countries at the moment by the way...

Yes; it's a real disaster. One of my friends is of Iranian heritage (although I believe she was born in the U.S. - she certainly grew up here) and her grandfather is currently visiting Iran and won't be allowed back to see his grandchildren. And of course she's scared for the rest of her family. There are similar stories aaaaaalllll over the Internet right now. It's awful!