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15 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

You don't seem to understand what right wing is if you think the US is right wing (I'm certainly not arguing it's a leftist utopia either, just that it sure as hell isn't a right wing one). Tell me, before I continue, how much political and religious literature have you read?  

Have you? Because all your posts read like your primary sources are hot take youtube video essays. 

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20 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

1: Fascism isn't "right-wing" inherently.

Yes. Yes it is.

Extreme rightwing authoritarianism built around an ethno-nationalist myth of national greatness arising from racial/cultural purity, and some subversive outgroup being the reason why so great a nation built by so great a people has so many problems.

The target group is deemed subversive and defined as adverse to the interests of the nation.

The general population is whipped into a patriotic frenzy against them. 

The central purpose for which the authoritarian state becomes more and more authoritarian and wields greater and greater power is persecution of the target group.  As the law defines the target group as lacking some form of legal status to live and work in the general population, such that they can be targeted for the mere 'crime' of their physical presence. 

The fascist state claims ever-expanding police powers to enforce its 'law.'

Pervasive nationalistic propaganda glorifies 'law enforcement' and dehumanizes the target group and spreads the idea that supporting their persecution is your patriotic duty if you love your country and want it to be great again.

The evermore cruel and inhumane treatment of the target group  is normalized as regular law-and-order + celebrated as serving the national interest. 

For European Fascism it was 'The Jew'  
For American Fascism now its the Central American Migrant

Thats what Fascism is.

Its inherently rightwing in the sense that ethno-nationalism is a far right ideology.

There is no such thing as "left-wing fascism"

Extreme leftwing authoritarianism holds that the state should grow more and more authoritarian and gain greater and greater police powers to advance a far left ideology of confiscating private wealth + maintaining government control of resource distribution.

We call that totalitarian communism.

20 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

2: Corporatism is essentially fascism

No. No it is not.

When people tell me I am using the term fascism too loosely to describe Donald Trump and his politics my response is always: You know I am not playing fast-and-loose with the term because I'll be the first one to call bullshit when the term is used incorrectly, as it so often is, as a synonym for something that the user doesn't like rather than as a descriptor for literal fascism. 

...and this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about...

A fascist state may(and often will be) one that is also a corporate oligarchy.

But corporate oligarchy in-and-of-itself is not the essential characteristic of fascism. 

 

20 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

the US functions similar to a fascist society because it is corporatist

The US today functions as a fascist society, but not for the reason you have stated. 

It functions as a fascist society because it holds in the popular lexicon of mainstream political thinking that migrant populations are responsible for the nation's crime, corruption, and economic dysfunction. 

...that laws criminalizing their mere physical presence in the country + the inhuman cruelty with which they are being treated under pretext of law enforcement serves some nationalistic greater good...

...that federal agents should have ever-expanding authorization to raid their communities, arrest them at their jobs and in their schools, haul them off to Prison Camps, separate their families, and hold them under whatever unsanitary and unnecessarily degrading conditions they see fit to inflict as punishment for them being in this country...

...and that advocacy for their rights + criticism of their treatments is a betrayal of one's countrymen--i.e. "Real Americans"--who will be made to suffer crime and corruption and economic hardship if such ever-expanding authoritarian police powers are not exercised against 'The Illegals.' 

It does not function as a fascist society because it is corporatist. 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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the most you can say about fascism is that economic policies are largely irrelevant

the biggest care of a fascist state economically is making sure that factories are producing weapons for war and the facade of taking care of 'their own' (the Aryans) as opposed to the subhumans, even if this is just a lie and the 'pure blooded' are treated poor as well (because a fascist always wants to exploit others to do the dirty work).

economics is not necessarily a strong principle that is held by fascism - if it serves best to be a corporatist, then that is what will happen. if it serves best to have state-controlled businesses, that will be what happens. the bigger emphasis is outward aggressive policy and inward scapegoats and ultranationalism.

Edited by Tryhard

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20 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

1: Fascism isn't "right-wing" inherently.

Have you read Shirer, man? It don't sound like you have.

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9 hours ago, Tryhard said:

the most you can say about fascism is that economic policies are largely irrelevant

the biggest care of a fascist state economically is making sure that factories are producing weapons for war and the facade of taking care of 'their own' (the Aryans) as opposed to the subhumans, even if this is just a lie and the 'pure blooded' are treated poor as well (because a fascist always wants to exploit others to do the dirty work).

economics is not necessarily a strong principle that is held by fascism - if it serves best to be a corporatist, then that is what will happen. if it serves best to have state-controlled businesses, that will be what happens. the bigger emphasis is outward aggressive policy and inward scapegoats and ultranationalism.

This is an important point that is often overlooked; the Nazis, for instance, pursued an utterly contradictory policy whose only rationale was building the wehrmacht, and in Russia many Fascists actually adopt the aesthetics and, presumably, economics of the USSR; if under Communism the nation was strongest, Communists we shall be.

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16 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

Have you? Because all your posts read like your primary sources are hot take youtube video essays. 

The majority of said Youtube essays come *because* people read the literature. If curious, in regards to this subject, The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels), The Doctrine of Fascism (Benito Mussolini), Das Kapital (Karl Marx), ~65% of Mein Kampf (Adolf Hitler), Economic Problems of Socialism in the U.S.S.R (Joseph Stalin), to name a few. I have a fascination with political and military history and the ideologies that fuel them, so it should be no surprise that the first half of the 20th century is a massive point of interest. If it's something that interests you as well I recommend starting with "100 Questions About Fascism" by Oswald Mosley because it's a manifesto, thus it's short (only ~40 pages) and a good introduction for an English speaker (Mosley was British, so no potential translation shenanigans), or if you want to hear the communist PoV first you should start the Communist Manifesto, which is also short (~45 pages) though this one is obvious.

12 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yes. Yes it is.

Extreme rightwing authoritarianism built around an ethno-nationalist myth of national greatness arising from racial/cultural purity, and some subversive outgroup being the reason why so great a nation built by so great a people has so many problems.

The target group is deemed subversive and defined as adverse to the interests of the nation.

The general population is whipped into a patriotic frenzy against them. 

The central purpose for which the authoritarian state becomes more and more authoritarian and wields greater and greater power is persecution of the target group.  As the law defines the target group as lacking some form of legal status to live and work in the general population, such that they can be targeted for the mere 'crime' of their physical presence. 

The fascist state claims ever-expanding police powers to enforce its 'law.'

Pervasive nationalistic propaganda glorifies 'law enforcement' and dehumanizes the target group and spreads the idea that supporting their persecution is your patriotic duty if you love your country and want it to be great again.

The evermore cruel and inhumane treatment of the target group  is normalized as regular law-and-order + celebrated as serving the national interest. 

For European Fascism it was 'The Jew'  
For American Fascism now its the Central American Migrant

Thats what Fascism is.

Its inherently rightwing in the sense that ethno-nationalism is a far right ideology.

There is no such thing as "left-wing fascism"

Extreme leftwing authoritarianism holds that the state should grow more and more authoritarian and gain greater and greater police powers to advance a far left ideology of confiscating private wealth + maintaining government control of resource distribution.

We call that totalitarian communism.

No. No it is not.

When people tell me I am using the term fascism too loosely to describe Donald Trump and his politics my response is always: You know I am not playing fast-and-loose with the term because I'll be the first one to call bullshit when the term is used incorrectly, as it so often is, as a synonym for something that the user doesn't like rather than as a descriptor for literal fascism. 

...and this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about...

A fascist state may(and often will be) one that is also a corporate oligarchy.

But corporate oligarchy in-and-of-itself is not the essential characteristic of fascism. 

 

The US today functions as a fascist society, but not for the reason you have stated. 

It functions as a fascist society because it holds in the popular lexicon of mainstream political thinking that migrant populations are responsible for the nation's crime, corruption, and economic dysfunction. 

...that laws criminalizing their mere physical presence in the country + the inhuman cruelty with which they are being treated under pretext of law enforcement serves some nationalistic greater good...

...that federal agents should have ever-expanding authorization to raid their communities, arrest them at their jobs and in their schools, haul them off to Prison Camps, separate their families, and hold them under whatever unsanitary and unnecessarily degrading conditions they see fit to inflict as punishment for them being in this country...

...and that advocacy for their rights + criticism of their treatments is a betrayal of one's countrymen--i.e. "Real Americans"--who will be made to suffer crime and corruption and economic hardship if such ever-expanding authoritarian police powers are not exercised against 'The Illegals.' 

It does not function as a fascist society because it is corporatist. 

 

Just wow... have you actually read the works of fascists? Or are you parroting common accusations? Because it sounds like the latter. Would be like I said making people starve was part of communist policy (which if you have ever read communist literature, you will know it isn't) Also let me make it clear I was not saying it was a leftist ideology either (because your response sounds like you thought I did). You, well people in general, must stop thinking in this left right paradigm and learn to look up. It's a method of control, and has been for centuries at this point.

As for your brilliant fascism analysis... You are conflating fascism with Nazism, admittedly a form of fascism that Hitler put a racial spin on. It's something damn near everyone seems to do, however that was not an aspect of the base ideology, for example fascist Italy and Spain didn't give a damn about ethnicity so long as you swore absolute loyalty to the state, if you read any fascist literature you would of known this. You are right however, about the method Nazi Germany used to fuel the flames of the antisemitic fire that began *during* World War One. However this leaves the question, if these fascist traits are as pervasive in US culture as you claim, why is it still socially unacceptable to support them? Why does the mainstream media not propagate them? If it were as bad as you said, the news would be doing nothing bad trash talking "traitors" who speak in favor of migrants, and constantly saying what an amazing leader Trump is for wanting to build a wall and deport the lot of them, and it would be socially acceptable to say whatever the negative sentiment you wanted. If you think that is the case, then take a look at an *actual* alt-right group (voat, stormfront, etc.) and tell me if Western society on a large scale supports the sentiment you find there.

You also still haven't answered my questions. You are under no obligation to, but I figured it would of been insightful.

11 hours ago, Karimlan said:

Have you read Shirer, man? It don't sound like you have.

I'll take it from the sources over someone analyzing it five decades later when it already has an established stigma, perhaps I will get to these sorts of writings at some point.

2 hours ago, blah the Prussian said:

This is an important point that is often overlooked; the Nazis, for instance, pursued an utterly contradictory policy whose only rationale was building the wehrmacht, and in Russia many Fascists actually adopt the aesthetics and, presumably, economics of the USSR; if under Communism the nation was strongest, Communists we shall be.

I'll agree to disagree here, the wehrmacht had a huge emphasis due to the upcoming clash between the communists and fascists (people were aware it was going to happen since the 20s), but there were a lot of other programs that were focused on. National socialism didn't live out it's natural life due to being defeated and dismantled, so we can only speculate about it's fate had it, or at least it's financial system, ran it's full course. Nazi Germany used a labor back currency to both avoid loans from central banks, and avoid attracting the attention of it's neighbors, this has not been tried again, so it remains speculation at best.

Also what Russian fascists? The communists had taken the nation over by the mid-20s and it was single-party. The side that opposed the communists during the Revolution remained loyal to the tsar, so if anything were monarchists (though I would say the majority of them were just anti-communist, rather then tsarist), or do you mean fascist groups in modern Russia?

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This is not a thread to come in and teach the unwashed masses.

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1 hour ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

Just wow... have you actually read the works of fascists? Or are you parroting common accusations? Because it sounds like the latter. Would be like I said making people starve was part of communist policy (which if you have ever read communist literature, you will know it isn't) Also let me make it clear I was not saying it was a leftist ideology either (because your response sounds like you thought I did). You, well people in general, must stop thinking in this left right paradigm and learn to look up. It's a method of control, and has been for centuries at this point.

Italian people on the right and even those calling themselves Fascists during the Mussolini years literally said "We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right,' a fascist century". But I digress on this one as there always seem to be people arguing otherwise on the matter of whether or not Fascism is inherently right-wing or not despite most scholars agreeing that it is and the people embracing the ideology embracing it as such...

1 hour ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

However this leaves the question, if these fascist traits are as pervasive in US culture as you claim, why is it still socially unacceptable to support them? Why does the mainstream media not propagate them? If it were as bad as you said, the news would be doing nothing bad trash talking "traitors" who speak in favor of migrants, and constantly saying what an amazing leader Trump is for wanting to build a wall and deport the lot of them, and it would be socially acceptable to say whatever the negative sentiment you wanted. If you think that is the case, then take a look at an *actual* alt-right group (voat, stormfront, etc.) and tell me if Western society on a large scale supports the sentiment you find there.

I don't believe the intent was to say that more than half the country supports Fascism when he says the US operates like it. It is true that Immigration seems to be a top issue to the population with the Republican voters buy into the immigration fear-mongering seeing it as harmful to the country, as many as 60% of them and Trump's support among them appears to float at 90%. The US operates more like a fascist society and an oligarchy primarily through those in power, the politicians and law enforcement. If you look at the common people, it's a different story when you look outside Republican voters, Democrats and Independents reject Fascism and desire Democracy but everyone (including some Republican voters) believe that the politicians are just bought out and they are.

The party most responsible for the "subtle" Fascist elements of the US is primarily the Republican party. Those motherfuckers simply do not believe in the system of government that was established in the country's founding as they're currently doing everything in their power to corrupt the system into their favor because THEY KNOW they're the more unpopular party of the 2 that have any chance of winning elections and they have no interest in changing their platform. The quickest way to demonstrate this point is the Gerrymandering, specially after the recent Supreme Court ruling with a Republican being famously quoted saying "I think electing Republicans is better than electing Democrats, So I drew this map to help foster what I think is better for the country". Couple that with the voter suppression that's primarily aimed at nuking votes from non-whites, criminalizing abortion and marijuana despite their constant preaching of being for "smaller government, deregulation" and being the first people looking to jump into another pointless war with Iran and you've got a party with the fascist tendencies of being anti-democracy and anti-liberalism, nationalist authoritarian goals for non-whites and promotion of violence by dragging us into another pointless and turning a blind eye to all the right-wing extremist murder that's been increasing under Trump.

As for your question, there's 2 things to look at: The Mainstream media and the people.

The Mainstream media is hesitant in calling out anything bad on the right because right-wingers will be the snowflakes they claim the liberals to be and bitch about being called out for their bullshit and their leadership being horrible. Norm Ornstein has been calling it out how the Republican party has gone to shit and how the Mainstream media is aiding them with their trying so hard to be a neutral spectator as briefly mentioned here. They won't call Trump a Fascist any time soon because they'll always be afraid of the backlash from the right-wing. Hell they're still afraid of calling him a racist (barring a few exceptions) and waiting for the N-word tape to come out. Right-wing media on the other hand, is basically what you just described as your expectation for what you think the Mainstream media would be doing if Fascism were pervasive in the US in your view. Right-wing media like Fox News and Breitbart do everything in their power to demonize the political spectrum that's again Trump by fear mongering about Socialism so bloody much that your average Trump fan doesn't even know the meaning of the word and when they're not demonizing the other side, they're kissing Trump's ass for shit he is doing that they demonized Obama for.

Then there's the people. On one side, you have Republican voters that are primarily made up of the Southerners that hated Civil Rights act and switched to the Republican party after the party switch in the 60s (as well their kids). Many of these people are simply content with just voting against things that benefit non-whites. There's a book that compiles interviews from right-wingers with some people having said they're happy to oppose Obamacare simply because it's Obama's policy. Republican voters of today primarily have Fox News as their source and given how much that network have butchered the term Socialism and how they'll never call Trump a fascist, it's safe to say these voters would follow Fascist leadership not realizing they're doing so. Hell, there's some cultists out there not even hiding how much they want Trump to become the dictator he yearns to be.

On the other side, non-Republicans, including in this thread, don't want to start putting labels like Trump the fascist to avoid becoming the same thing as Fox News and the word Socialist. In the past I've said that I don't think Trump is a white nationalist... I'm not so sure about that anymore after his recent use of the KKK slogan "Love it or Leave it".

As for actual alt-right groups like Stormfront and such, I've lurked in those and have seen their posts and there's been leaked Discord chats of them talking about how the GOP is the "White Man's party". Much like the current GOP leadership, they don't care about maintaining the system of government that the founding fathers established and would rather see it gone and replaced with whatever works to have Whites as the rules of the countries and non-whites to be either removed from the country or treated as second class citizens. The racists and far-right groups are calling the GOP their party, I don't have to.

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7 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

The majority of said Youtube essays come *because* people read the literature. If curious, in regards to this subject, The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels), The Doctrine of Fascism (Benito Mussolini), Das Kapital (Karl Marx), ~65% of Mein Kampf (Adolf Hitler), Economic Problems of Socialism in the U.S.S.R (Joseph Stalin), to name a few. I have a fascination with political and military history and the ideologies that fuel them, so it should be no surprise that the first half of the 20th century is a massive point of interest. If it's something that interests you as well I recommend starting with "100 Questions About Fascism" by Oswald Mosley because it's a manifesto, thus it's short (only ~40 pages) and a good introduction for an English speaker (Mosley was British, so no potential translation shenanigans), or if you want to hear the communist PoV first you should start the Communist Manifesto, which is also short (~45 pages) though this one is obvious.

Sooo... What? Is this an admission that all you're saying is rehashed from youtube videos?

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8 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

I'll agree to disagree here, the wehrmacht had a huge emphasis due to the upcoming clash between the communists and fascists (people were aware it was going to happen since the 20s), but there were a lot of other programs that were focused on. National socialism didn't live out it's natural life due to being defeated and dismantled, so we can only speculate about it's fate had it, or at least it's financial system, ran it's full course. Nazi Germany used a labor back currency to both avoid loans from central banks, and avoid attracting the attention of it's neighbors, this has not been tried again, so it remains speculation at best.

 Also what Russian fascists? The communists had taken the nation over by the mid-20s and it was single-party. The side that opposed the communists during the Revolution remained loyal to the tsar, so if anything were monarchists (though I would say the majority of them were just anti-communist, rather then tsarist), or do you mean fascist groups in modern Russia?

Yes I do. I'm talking about the Nazbols, who are a meme ideology everywhere but Russia.

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We can only speculate, but most serious historians who have speculated have come to the conclusion that the regime would have collapsed from unsustainable economics. 

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10 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

I'll take it from the sources over someone analyzing it five decades later when it already has an established stigma, perhaps I will get to these sorts of writings at some point.

You're referring to a different Shirer altogether (if ever there was one). Since you've named your sources, I'll name mine. Do take note that I put time in and actually read the thing, as opposed to perusing a bunch of CliffsNotes in video form.

Edited by Karimlan

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11 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

The majority of said Youtube essays come *because* people read the literature.

...and yet still amounts to entertainment channels posing as scholarship, quoting unintelligibly for others what they have not understood themselves. Passing of their own misconceptions of scholarly work as dogma...
 

11 hours ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

You also still haven't answered my questions.  

You mean your demand to know what I've studied and where I've lived that qualifies me to speak my own thoughts, without citing to someone else's work for persuasive authority???

- 4 Years Political Science undergrad with concentrated areas of study in Western Political Theory (Aristotle and Socrates through John Stuart Mill and Howard Zinn), Economic Theory (Adam Smith through John Maynard Keynes), Gender Theory (Susan B. Anthony through Camille Paglia), History of World Markets, History of Religion & Moral Theory, History of Law Enforcement and State Police Powers (Recommended Reading: Prosperity & Violence, by Robert Bates), and statistical analysis      

-3 Years Law of Law School, with elective concentration of studies in Holocaust Law and Legal History of the Fascist State. 

(PRO TIP:  Judge them by what they do. Not by what they say. The Statutes, Court Opinions, and Executive Orders from that era paint a much better picture of what fascism was and how it operated than something like the written works and public speeches of Mussolini, glowingly explaining why fascism is great and why everyone should be a fascist. You have missed something crucial if you have just read fascist literature and taken their self-professed statements of what they are at face value, without remembering that one of the core features of fascism is pervasive state propaganda)   

-Residing in a community right on the border of where the urban/suburban population of the Philadelphia metropolitan area meets the countryfolk population of the Pine Barrens and farmlands of Southern New Jersey. Interact with + familiar with both.   

 

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

This is not a thread to come in and teach the unwashed masses.

Was that directed at me? I dunno if that was directed at me.

I'll stop if it was.

I have some more choice words for him if it wasn't. 
_____


EDIT

Also, add that North Carolina Rally where the President of the United States stood smug-faced in front of throngs of supporters chanting "Send her back! Send her back!" at an elected Congresswoman born outside the United States to the list of examples as to how America is now operating as a fascist country.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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8 hours ago, eclipse said:

This is not a thread to come in and teach the unwashed masses.

Much like the response Shoblongoo made as I was typing this post up, you probably should of said who it was directed it. If it was me, what can I say? I came back to the site for other reasons (FE4 related), noticed the topic title, read some of it, and decided it would be interesting to throw something in to break the monotony of it.

8 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Italian people on the right and even those calling themselves Fascists during the Mussolini years literally said "We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right,' a fascist century". But I digress on this one as there always seem to be people arguing otherwise on the matter of whether or not Fascism is inherently right-wing or not despite most scholars agreeing that it is and the people embracing the ideology embracing it as such...

I don't believe the intent was to say that more than half the country supports Fascism when he says the US operates like it. It is true that Immigration seems to be a top issue to the population with the Republican voters buy into the immigration fear-mongering seeing it as harmful to the country, as many as 60% of them and Trump's support among them appears to float at 90%. The US operates more like a fascist society and an oligarchy primarily through those in power, the politicians and law enforcement. If you look at the common people, it's a different story when you look outside Republican voters, Democrats and Independents reject Fascism and desire Democracy but everyone (including some Republican voters) believe that the politicians are just bought out and they are.

The party most responsible for the "subtle" Fascist elements of the US is primarily the Republican party. Those motherfuckers simply do not believe in the system of government that was established in the country's founding as they're currently doing everything in their power to corrupt the system into their favor because THEY KNOW they're the more unpopular party of the 2 that have any chance of winning elections and they have no interest in changing their platform. The quickest way to demonstrate this point is the Gerrymandering, specially after the recent Supreme Court ruling with a Republican being famously quoted saying "I think electing Republicans is better than electing Democrats, So I drew this map to help foster what I think is better for the country". Couple that with the voter suppression that's primarily aimed at nuking votes from non-whites, criminalizing abortion and marijuana despite their constant preaching of being for "smaller government, deregulation" and being the first people looking to jump into another pointless war with Iran and you've got a party with the fascist tendencies of being anti-democracy and anti-liberalism, nationalist authoritarian goals for non-whites and promotion of violence by dragging us into another pointless and turning a blind eye to all the right-wing extremist murder that's been increasing under Trump.

As for your question, there's 2 things to look at: The Mainstream media and the people.

The Mainstream media is hesitant in calling out anything bad on the right because right-wingers will be the snowflakes they claim the liberals to be and bitch about being called out for their bullshit and their leadership being horrible. Norm Ornstein has been calling it out how the Republican party has gone to shit and how the Mainstream media is aiding them with their trying so hard to be a neutral spectator as briefly mentioned here. They won't call Trump a Fascist any time soon because they'll always be afraid of the backlash from the right-wing. Hell they're still afraid of calling him a racist (barring a few exceptions) and waiting for the N-word tape to come out. Right-wing media on the other hand, is basically what you just described as your expectation for what you think the Mainstream media would be doing if Fascism were pervasive in the US in your view. Right-wing media like Fox News and Breitbart do everything in their power to demonize the political spectrum that's again Trump by fear mongering about Socialism so bloody much that your average Trump fan doesn't even know the meaning of the word and when they're not demonizing the other side, they're kissing Trump's ass for shit he is doing that they demonized Obama for.

Then there's the people. On one side, you have Republican voters that are primarily made up of the Southerners that hated Civil Rights act and switched to the Republican party after the party switch in the 60s (as well their kids). Many of these people are simply content with just voting against things that benefit non-whites. There's a book that compiles interviews from right-wingers with some people having said they're happy to oppose Obamacare simply because it's Obama's policy. Republican voters of today primarily have Fox News as their source and given how much that network have butchered the term Socialism and how they'll never call Trump a fascist, it's safe to say these voters would follow Fascist leadership not realizing they're doing so. Hell, there's some cultists out there not even hiding how much they want Trump to become the dictator he yearns to be.

On the other side, non-Republicans, including in this thread, don't want to start putting labels like Trump the fascist to avoid becoming the same thing as Fox News and the word Socialist. In the past I've said that I don't think Trump is a white nationalist... I'm not so sure about that anymore after his recent use of the KKK slogan "Love it or Leave it".

As for actual alt-right groups like Stormfront and such, I've lurked in those and have seen their posts and there's been leaked Discord chats of them talking about how the GOP is the "White Man's party". Much like the current GOP leadership, they don't care about maintaining the system of government that the founding fathers established and would rather see it gone and replaced with whatever works to have Whites as the rules of the countries and non-whites to be either removed from the country or treated as second class citizens. The racists and far-right groups are calling the GOP their party, I don't have to.

I hate the right/left paradigm since it boils down all debate and argument in to a black and white issue, which is unproductive as the past dozen or so posts have proven. Though for the sake of argument I will use it in this post. I'm not even defending fascism. I am against authoritarianism which, by necessity, it must be. I just noticed a lot of people are ignorant of it's aspects and was attempting to educate, but seems nobody will hear of it. Oh well, such a shame.

Because I have studied it I can however explain it's appeal to the right. Fascism appeals to the right because of it's emphasis on traditional values, nationalism, and it's anti-communist stance (and as should be obvious, communism is abhorred by the right) the mindset behind the ideology is a "strength through unity" sort of idea (to boil it down to the most simplistic of it's explanations), whatever that may be, in the case of Nazi Germany is was racial, while a place like Italy had a more civic take on it, just to name the big two. Without some homogeneous trait among the entire population (whatever that might be), it wouldn't work, which is why it must purge those who do not conform. However there are other traits that the right would not find appealing, such as it's collectivist nature, but that was qualm people in the 20s and 30s deemed tolerable because the destruction of communism was their main priority.

As for the alt-right, perhaps during the election when they were hoping he was the second coming of Adolf Hitler, but the majority of them despise Trump and the republicans now because he pledged support for Israel and has *not* done the horrific things some claim (they would *like* to see non-whites rounded up and shipped out, or worse), they see him as a traitor because of that. The non-extremist ones seem to be the only group who still like him. If the US was truly fascist (in the traditional sense), Antifa protests (or similar) would be gunned down by the state.

3 hours ago, Excellen Browning said:

Sooo... What? Is this an admission that all you're saying is rehashed from youtube videos?

How on Earth did you derive that? I don't watch Youtube very often and when I do it's usually for humorous/gameplay videos. My point was that perhaps said people you speak of reached the conclusions they did because they actually read the literature. Are you projecting or something? Or are you afraid reading literature by it's founders/followers will challenge your held beliefs? Have you never once asked yourself why these ideologies became popular in the early 20th century?

1 hour ago, blah the Prussian said:

Yes I do. I'm talking about the Nazbols, who are a meme ideology everywhere but Russia.

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We can only speculate, but most serious historians who have speculated have come to the conclusion that the regime would have collapsed from unsustainable economics. 

Alright you meant modern Russia, yeah I have heard of it before. You hadn't stated the time period, so I wasn't 100% sure. I am in agreement with the majority, I think the 3rd Reich's economy wouldn't of lasted, I just find it an interesting topic to think about.

47 minutes ago, Karimlan said:

You're referring to a different Shirer altogether (if ever there was one). Since you've named your sources, I'll name mine. Do take note that I put time in and actually read the thing, as opposed to perusing a bunch of CliffsNotes in video form.

I looked it up and it seems there is an older one (the one you speak of, I assume) from ~1960, certainly a better choice as the stigma was nowhere near as strong at that point, I will be sure to look in to it. Also I never once claimed I read nor watched a video of cliffnotes about it. I outright said I have not read a book of his.

 

Since there was another reply I was typing (Shoblongoo) this that I don't want to restart the post I'll just past reply to it here... As I said earlier in the post, I don't really watch Youtube stuff, so I have not seen the people he speaks of, I was just presenting a potential explanation. Also good to hear it, I wasn't asking for specifics, more just experience, I was curious because (for one example) I have quite frequently encountered people who have lived in a rural/urban area who have the mindset the entire world is like their respective region. I grew up in a moderate sized town in Mass, lived in city later (Boston) and now the middle of nowhere (population ~550) so it's been fascinating to witnesses ideological differences.

I'm also a subscriber to "actions speak louder than words" but talking about the actions of the leaders of the early 20th century is... difficult, for lack of a better term, on a site like this due to certain rules, it's impossible to talk of them objectively without some rule being broken (For example, if I gave a reason for an event happening, some might read it as an excuse and report. Despite the fact reasons and excuses are two very different things), so it's limited to ideological talk, otherwise you will be branded a troll, racist, etc. by someone offended, which people *will* attempt to use against you, I have been using forums and message boards long enough to know that.

Also I would love to hear said choice words within what rules allow (well I would like to hear them all, but I know things have to be kept tame on this site), because it sounds like I am giving off the wrong impressions. I am not easily offended so let loose with whatever you feel you can within the rules.

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15 minutes ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

As for the alt-right, perhaps during the election when they were hoping he was the second coming of Adolf Hitler, but the majority of them despise Trump and the republicans now because he pledged support for Israel and has *not* done the horrific things some claim (they would *like* to see non-whites rounded up and shipped out, or worse), they see him as a traitor because of that. The non-extremist ones seem to be the only group who still like him.

I don't know about that, as I would say the likes of Richard Spencer and David Duke are pretty extreme.

What do you mean about the alt-right not supporting Trump anymore? Everything I've seen suggests that they still do.

They at the very least know that their position is unpopular and it's unlikely they are going to get everything they want. But the fact is, that they specifically supported Trump because they believed him to take them to the nearest possible stop on their ideological train. 

Even most of the ones who are deeply anti-semitic acknowledge that they can overlook that in favour of building the wall or some dumb shit.

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16 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

I don't know about that, as I would say the likes of Richard Spencer and David Duke are pretty extreme.

What do you mean about the alt-right not supporting Trump anymore? Everything I've seen suggests that they still do.

They at the very least know that their position is unpopular and it's unlikely they are going to get everything they want. But the fact is, that they specifically supported Trump because they believed him to take them to the nearest possible stop on their ideological train. 

Even most of the ones who are deeply anti-semitic acknowledge that they can overlook that in favour of building the wall or some dumb shit.

I suppose it depends on your definition. Generally when I think of "alt-right" I think of the crowd that wants an ethno-state to the point other ethnicities should be deported or executed, hates the majority of non-white races save east Asians, abhors Jews due to their role in certain ideologies they loathe (for one example, communism), views gay people (and similar) as a poison to society and wants them to be locked up or executed, thinks the weak should perish and the strong should be at the top, are hyper-nationalist in addition to ethno-nationalist, and maybe around ~65% are authoritarian. If forced to choose between eliminating all Jews or putting up a wall on the Mexican border, they would pick the first option without hesitation.

I don't consider someone who likes Trump, thinks a wall would be good, and is a civic nationalist (doesn't care about ethnicity so long as they are loyal to the nation) "alt-right" personally. Not sure if "moderate right" is the correct term or not, but it should get the point across.

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1 hour ago, Camus The Dark Knight said:

If forced to choose between eliminating all Jews or putting up a wall on the Mexican border, they would pick the first option without hesitation.

Bit of a false dichotomy, is it not?

Pragmatically, they know that suggesting that we round up all the Jews and murder them isn't going to fly with most people. Most of them that aren't on anonymous message boards know they need to cloak their views. Is the telling part not that they think Trump is (and from all indications that I have, still is) the closest to their ideology?

And yeah, some of them may have expressed minor disapproval for Trump's relationship with Israel. Guess what? They will be back in 2020 to vote for him because the opponent is a horrible socialist whatever, because people have short memories.

Edited by Tryhard

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1 minute ago, Tryhard said:

Bit of a false dichotomy, is it not?

Pragmatically, they know that suggesting that we round up all the Jews and murder them isn't going to fly with most people. Is the telling part not that they think Trump is (and from all indications that I have, still is) the closest to their ideology?

And yeah, some of them may have expressed minor disapproval for Trump's relationship with Israel. Guess what? They will be back in 2020 to vote for him because the opponent is a horrible socialist whatever, because people have short memories.

To answer the question you have to have an understanding of the group in question. Like all extremists they are religiously dedicated to their cause and don't have a short memory. Think of one of those kinds of people who can hold a grudge because a kid stole their bag of Halloween candy when they were eight. They don't hold minor disapproval for him supporting Israel, they literally hate him for it. The majority are either not voting, or voting in Trump's opponent to "speed up the collapse". As for the wall question, they believe the Jews are behind the push for migration and that brown people are their useful idiots. Therefor, by their logic, eliminate the Jewish problem, and the others can be dealt with swiftly.

During my time lurking on extremist sites (of all sorts) I have found that it is not really hatred that is the underlying cause for the extremism. It certainly fuels it, but from what I have observed it's fear. Like the saying there is nothing more dangerous than a wounded animal, or the saying about a cornered animal will lash out. If someone believes themselves or their kin to be in danger (in the case of the alt-right, it's the death and destruction of their people and culture via replacement migration), they will lash out, and the more people try to suppress them whether through censorship, shame, etc. The bigger the backlash will be once it occurs.

 

 

I think I am done with this topic, it's been fun but I am tired of explaining things to people who still think I am on some side for some reason. If anyone feels the need to trash talk me, get the last word, etc. just send a PM.

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On 7/19/2019 at 9:17 AM, Camus The Dark Knight said:

I think I am done with this topic, it's been fun but I am tired of explaining things to people who still think I am on some side for some reason. If anyone feels the need to trash talk me, get the last word, etc. just send a PM.

And I will enforce this.  As in, if I see you reply in this topic again, it's an automatic suspension.

If you want to bring in a different point, that's fine.  Do you know what isn't fine?

On 7/16/2019 at 10:55 PM, Camus The Dark Knight said:

Such a lack of knowledge of how things work in US politics around here...

Being passive-aggressive about your stance, or generally implying that the other guy's an idiot.  It's one thing to debate.  But you are NOT to put down whoever you're debating with.  If you're as smart as you think you are, you should be able to get your point across without resorting to such tactics.  Likewise, if I get a PM from you, I shouldn't see such things in it, either.

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"This is like watching an episode of The Bachelor. That's why Trump is president."   -My Wife; Watching the Democratic Primary Debate last night- 


I think this about sums it up:
Image may contain: one or more people and text
  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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On 7/31/2019 at 11:11 AM, Shoblongoo said:

I think this about sums it up:
Image may contain: one or more people and text

You forgot the part where Williamson is an anti-vaxxer. And, she believes disease should be embraced, that AIDs are angels dressed as Darth Vader. And, antidepressants are bad and make people kill themselves. Willpower and a positive outlook is apparently all you need to overcome illness.

-After I saw this mentioned after the 30th's debate, and read a little more today, I really got to say the media has to call her out on these viewpoints. These are WRONG!, and dangerous for the health and wellbeing of American society. The one comparison I read is that Williamson is getting the same, incorrect, treatment as Trump got as a candidate. Treating someone with horribly problematic viewpoints as a normal candidate with rational views.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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she's definitely an old school hippie with new age tendencies

but yeah, she's not going anywhere. it's kinda how i feel about bill de blasio. at least he's making good talking points on stage even if he ain't doing anything other than promoting his political career.

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So, the El Paso shooting. I saw an article that pissed me off. It is listed as an opinion piece, but the entire concept is warped.

https://forward.com/opinion/428847/the-el-paso-shooter-supported-trump-if-you-do-too-you-are-supporting-the/

I would be the last person to give any defense to Trump or the Republicans, but suggesting that there is a direct blame for Trump supporters is going into the territory where if you take this logic out and apply it to any other aspect, it falls apart. The guy was a Christian (I believe, although I can't verify this - regardless there have been others in the past), can we conclude that all Christians now are responsible? When a self-described supporter of Sanders went out to shoot a Republican politician, and Sanders came out and said this guy was an idiot, is it his fault? Actually, the media did write a few of those stories at that time. It simply will not hold water.

I'm not naive enough to believe there is no correlation for far-right terrorism, and you could certainly make the case that Trump and the Republicans influence people like this (for example, the MAGAbomber came out and claimed he was fully influenced by Fox News), but this is a leap even beyond that.

These type of articles from media organisations actively hurt progressive or Democratic causes, which annoys me more than the right downplaying certain terrorism statistics. If I was a member of the right that was pretending to be a progressive outlet to make them look bad, this is exactly what I would write.

Edited by Tryhard

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Alas, replace "Trump supporter" with "Muslim" and the result is a little too close to home.  Hold people responsible for their actions.  Whether their ideology comes into play should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

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