Do you hate Avatar character(s)? If so, why?

[HTakara82]

I'm trying to wrap my head around as to why some seem to hate the concept of an Avatar lead. It's pretty obvious that all FEs from now on, will be featuring a Avatar lead. But what makes it so much worst than the typical, blue haired lord?

Only real answers please, and try to be as descriptive as possible.

[Oshimos]

Personally, I don't. I have a lot of fun designing characters, and when I was a kid I spent more time than I'd like to admit with a gameshark trying to figure out how to make Mark a playable character in 7.

That said, I don't necessarily think they've improved the series at all, and I'm pissed at how terrible the customization options for M-Kamui are, to the point that it kind of hurts the experience. At least I could make a good looking Robin with the bigger body type and the less stupid hair.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I dont mind the concept of them. But i dont like them having that kind of role in the narrative. Because i honestly think people have the biggest problem with the Avatars because they are these huge Black Hole Mary Sues in the narratives they appear in. A playable MU character isnt the problem. The MU absorbing everything the plot has is the problem.

I actually dont feel too strongly either way if the MU is included in a game or not. But i do feel that MU shouldnt take away from the other characters/story.

[riolumaster]

I'm indifferent. On the one hand, it's cool to customize a main character and have them play a very active role in the game. However, it's less fun with with an Avatar like Robin, who has his/her own personality. It's even more distinct with Corrin. Both of them are supposed to have their personalities depend on the player, but it doesn't feel that way.

I wouldn't mind having another one in the next game though.

[Azz]

Hate is a strong word.

I like them, if they fit.

With FE7 it fit as the MU was not important to the plot but yet had their own mini-narrative as the tactician so on and so forth

Kris sucked and is probably the worst since he completely over shadows Marth

Robin was okay

The there is Kamui who just is badly written

MU can exist in FE they just need to either be written better or just not be there cause other wise it would not work.

[Jedi]

They feel much less like actual characters. Like even Roy is less cardboard than Kris/Robin/Kamui, and thats saying quite alot.

Kris, for example took many of Jeigan and Marths lines and stuff and added in a useless subplot.

Robin took the spotlight away from Chrom when we needed much much better characterization of Chrom which basically ended up with him looking like an even more Reckless Sigurd but who doesn't get punished for being reckless, and being constantly praised for everything when tacticians in the past FE's never got that universal praise.

Kamui I cannot comment on currently, but from how wishywashy he/she seem to be and just the heaps of unearned praise and the amount of character development they take from other characters just so they can praise him/her is a bit disgusting.

Marth is the uncertain warrior prince, dedicated to saving his sister and reclaiming his land, he is a bit of a goody good, but also cannot forgive Gra, he even mentions it himself. He has doubts, he feels human.

Alm, is just a badass not much characterization there, but the player can infer for him and Cecilia

Sigurd, Brash, Reckless, Noble. Makes mistake after mistake by simply doing what he feels is right, eventually catches up with him

Celice, Noble, honest, more calm then his Father

Leif, a rebel with a cause, who has to go through absolute hell and makes tactical error after tactical error, costing people their lives. But he improves and perseveres

Roy, A romantic thinker and tactical prodigy not much of a fighter, Young Commander of an army which he must get together after the tragic passing of its former leader.

Eliwood, a noble, just, tries to sort things out with reason, yet is prone to make illogical emotional choices.

Hector, a brash and loyal friend, always aims to get things done, but can be quick in his choices. Learns to become more of a leader as the game goes on

Lyn, Wildwoman of the plains born into royalty that she didn't know, has to constantly deal with politics and stuff she'd rather not

Eirika, naive but just Princess, she grows into a more queenly figure

Ephraim, warrior tactician with a daring attitude but his reckless behavior does have a few consequences

Ike, a mercenary who grows from a young lad to a leader in a span of a brutal year of having to take the reigns from his father, often struggles with some early recklessness which nearly gets people killed and his blunt attitude with nobles

Micaiah, a rebel who has to struggle with her dual bloodline and the very people she loves cursing people such as her, who struggles to do what she feels is right.

All of these characters are much better then any Avatar we've ever gotten.

[I love fire emblem]

The concept is perfectly fine, its just that the execution was really poor. The avatar costimization is fun and all, but Kamui just turns out was a stupid character in the story, with there supports ranging from good to below-average (from what I've read anyways) and they didn't fit the role as lords in their respective game.

Edit: I also completly agree with Azz and Jedi on their statements.

Edited October 7, 2015 by I love fire emblem

[HTakara82]

What's so different about the Avatar being the center of the plot, than lets say Ike being the center of the plot? It seems like very shallow nitpicking.

[sylveonzoroark]

Avatars are nice when they're written well, but I'd be disappointed if all future FE games have Mary Sue Self Inserts.

[Slade]

I dont mind the concept of them. But i dont like them having that kind of role in the narrative. Because i honestly think people have the biggest problem with the Avatars because they are these huge Black Hole Mary Sues in the narratives they appear in. A playable MU character isnt the problem. The MU absorbing everything the plot has is the problem. I actually dont feel too strongly either way if the MU is included in a game or not. But i do feel that MU shouldnt take away from the other characters/story.

'Couldn't have put it better in any other way.I'm fine with making a character, but I wouldn't find any enjoyment if my custom unit was consistently in the plot then I would soon find a distaste in the character I made. The moment a new character enters the scene, suddenly all the attention is focused to him/her but then *insert some random-ass connection with the MU here* and it ruins the atmosphere. I don't hate Avatars, I just believe the function is just lacking potential. Edited October 7, 2015 by Slade

[HTakara82]

'Couldn't have put it better in any other way.I'm fine with making a character, but I wouldn't find any enjoyment if my custom unit was consistently in the plot then I would soon find a distaste in the character I made. The moment a new character enters the scene, suddenly all the attention is focused to him/her but then *insert some random-ass connection with the MU here* and it ruins the atmosphere. I don't hate Avatars, I just believe the function is just lacking potential.

Again.. V

What's so different about the Avatar being the center of the plot, than lets say Ike being the center of the plot? It seems like very shallow nitpicking.

[carefreejules]

It really depends on how they're put in the game. In a lot of cases I can see why people don't like them since it's hard to make a character that's kind of supposed to be a representation of the player since everyone playing has vastly different personalities from each other so some of the decisions made by this character might not match up to what the player had in mind.

I thought the direction of Robin was alright and would actually prefer if the Avatar were just a supporting character to the main protagonist like everyone else. Having them be the star of the game raises people's expectations of their Avatar because they initially see themselves as this character. If you make the Avatar engage in poor decisions or actions that the player wouldn't probably do, it's kind of like an insult to the player. And because they're the star of the show, they're actions are that much more noticeable and taken more personally.

When you're controlling Ike or Eirika, that's completely different because those characters aren't made to be a reflection of the player so any silly mistakes that they've done aren't going to be taken as personally.

When you have the freedom to customize and name something, you'll most likely feel some sort of ownership towards it. You don't really get that for characters that already have an established name and appearance.

Edited October 7, 2015 by carefreejules

[Baldrick]

FE7 was an example of a good avatar character; a blank slate that has no explicit dialogue, and can be turned off so there's no implicit dialogue.

The avatar characters in the last three games have just been pandering to the player. Everyone loves them, they're special snowflakes, etc. This is exacerbated by the marriage and children mechanics; the avatar has to support everyone to appeal to the shippers, and even characters who have a good reason not to be friendly with the avatar are derailed into marrying them.

[Ebony]

I don't care for Kamui. They remind me of those old fanfics with the self insert Mary Sues based off of the author tbh.

[HTakara82]

FE7 was an example of a good avatar character; a blank slate that has no explicit dialogue, and can be turned off so there's no implicit dialogue.

The avatar characters in the last three games have just been pandering to the player. Everyone loves them, they're special snowflakes, etc. This is exacerbated by the marriage and children mechanics; the avatar has to support everyone to appeal to the shippers, and even characters who have a good reason not to be friendly with the avatar are derailed into marrying them.

Can't be an avatar if you don't have an... avatar. Just saying. I hated Mark, it felt stupid, why can't I see myself? why can't I kill shit? It wasn't so much as an avatar as the games acknowledgment that you the player are there.

[Loki Laufeyson]

What's so different about the Avatar being the center of the plot, than lets say Ike being the center of the plot? It seems like very shallow nitpicking.

Do you know what a Mary Sue is? A Mary Sue is a (usually) self-insert character in a story (often a fanfiction), that is so loved by everyone and everything in that universe. So much so, that that universe bends to their will. Heroes, villains, even side-characters often just bend over backwards for Mary Sue. That is what the Avatar has become in FE. Our self-insert Mary Sue who has no flaws and everyone just loves. The lords like Ike dont compare to that. They are written with real flaws and consequences to those flaws. Eirika is a kind, trusting girl who misses her friend Lyon. This bites her in the arse pretty hard in her own narrative. Eliwood and Hector have the face the consequences of acting too rashly. Sigurd gets his own personal BBQ for his troubles. What does Robin, Kris, and Kamui get for their flaws? Nothing. Because the game didnt give them flaws.

Its not nitpicking.

[Zasplach]

What's so different about the Avatar being the center of the plot, than lets say Ike being the center of the plot? It seems like very shallow nitpicking.

The difference is basically that every character has personality flaws that should somehow harm them. Ike has his flaws and the game is at times willing to emphasize them and have him work through them. When you, the consumer of the product, are the lead, the game doesn't want to point out any flaws that you posses, because they want you to enjoy the game and no one likes to think of themselves as a mess up. Granted, I haven't played Fates, but from the sound of it, he is a typical Mary Sue, none of his flaws come back to bite him in the butt at all. Good main characters, have flaws because every human has flaws, part of the interest of a good story is a character working through these flaws and improving him/herself.

Edit: Damn Loki beat me :p.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Zasplach

[Gomez_Addams]

FE7 was an example of a good avatar character; a blank slate that has no explicit dialogue, and can be turned off so there's no implicit dialogue.

The avatar characters in the last three games have just been pandering to the player. Everyone loves them, they're special snowflakes, etc. This is exacerbated by the marriage and children mechanics; the avatar has to support everyone to appeal to the shippers, and even characters who have a good reason not to be friendly with the avatar are derailed into marrying them.

To be fair, "everyone loves them" is extremely common among FE lords. How many playable characters are there that actually hate the main character? There's Shinon, and... maybe Astram?

[Nyanko]

I don't hate avatars, but I do strongly dislike how IS thinks the player wants the plot and all the other characters to be so focused on the avatar.

In this game, I would've rather had Marx and Ryouma be the Lords of their respective routes with us seeing the story unfold from Kamui's perspective after he picks whichever side. It certainly would make more sense to me. Why do people follow him in Nohr or Hoshido when they could've followed Marx or Ryouma?

Anyway, I prefer to have a "normal" Lord. I liked Robin, but Kamui just sounds like he's an idiot.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Sir Frederick

[HTakara82]

Do you know what a Mary Sue is? A Mary Sue is a (usually) self-insert character in a story (often a fanfiction), that is so loved by everyone and everything in that universe. So much so, that that universe bends to their will. Heroes, villains, even side-characters often just bend over backwards for Mary Sue. That is what the Avatar has become in FE. Our self-insert Mary Sue who has no flaws and everyone just loves. The lords like Ike dont compare to that. They are written with real flaws and consequences to those flaws. Eirika is a kind, trusting girl who misses her friend Lyon. This bites her in the arse pretty hard in her own narrative. Eliwood and Hector have the face the consequences of acting too rashly. Sigurd gets his own personal BBQ for his troubles. What does Robin, Kris, and Kamui get for their flaws? Nothing. Because the game didnt give them flaws.

Its not nitpicking.

All of the lords of Fire Emblems are Gary Stu's. Having something bad happen to them doesn't negate that, everyone still love them, everyone still bend over for them. Ike, everyone loves him he's the bond that closed the rift of Laguz and Beorcs, made a man that would rather cut his testicles off find the errors of his ways and rejoin the group. so forth and so on. You act like nothing bad had ever happened to Kamui for his decisions. Which is complete BS as you could *spoiler* I see dead people.

[Baldrick]

Can't be an avatar if you don't have an... avatar. Just saying. I hated Mark, it felt stupid, why can't I see myself? why can't I kill shit? It wasn't so much as an avatar as the games acknowledgment that you the player are there.

That's my point. People who want an avatar character want their ego stroked. You can't have an avatar that isn't perfect in every way. You can't have characters like August or Shinon who hate the protagonist.

[twice]

I think each avatar in any FE game worked for that game itself, and the way they were presented. Not each game with an avatar has to be conveyed the same way; but, I find that a good thing (imo).

[I love fire emblem]

Do you know what a Mary Sue is? A Mary Sue is a (usually) self-insert character in a story (often a fanfiction), that is so loved by everyone and everything in that universe. So much so, that that universe bends to their will. Heroes, villains, even side-characters often just bend over backwards for Mary Sue. That is what the Avatar has become in FE. Our self-insert Mary Sue who has no flaws and everyone just loves. The lords like Ike dont compare to that. They are written with real flaws and consequences to those flaws. Eirika is a kind, trusting girl who misses her friend Lyon. This bites her in the arse pretty hard in her own narrative. Eliwood and Hector have the face the consequences of acting too rashly. Sigurd gets his own personal BBQ for his troubles. What does Robin, Kris, and Kamui get for their flaws? Nothing. Because the game didnt give them flaws.

Its not nitpicking.

The difference is basically that every character has personality flaws that should somehow harm them. Ike has his flaws and the game is at times willing to emphasize them and have him work through them. When you, the consumer of the product, are the lead, the game doesn't want to point out any flaws that you posses, because they want you to enjoy the game and no one likes to think of themselves as a mess up. Granted, I haven't played Fates, but from the sound of it, he is a typical Mary Sue, none of his flaws come back to bite him in the butt at all. Good main characters, have flaws because every human has flaws, part of the interest of a good story is a character working through these flaws and improving him/herself.

Edit: Damn Loki beat me :p.

Basicly what Loki and Zasplach said, every characters have their own flaws that makes them human. Kamui, on the other hand, everyone worships them like they were god or something like that, and Kamui just plays along with it. It's important for your main character to have human like flaws to make them good, if not then there will be little to nothing interesting about them.

Edited October 7, 2015 by I love fire emblem

[Gomez_Addams]

That's my point. People who want an avatar character want their ego stroked. You can't have an avatar that isn't perfect in every way. You can't have characters like August or Shinon who hate the protagonist.

I'm sorry, but I cannot let this slide. August did NOT, DID NOT hate Leif. How could you ever think he did? He was harsh, yes, but Jugdral is a harsh place (as I have stated before). Everything he said and did was to mold Leif into a better ruler, and a better man. In his own words, "Heroes are made, Lord Leif, not born." August is the one who made Leif a hero.

[Ebony]

All of the lords of Fire Emblems are Gary Stu's. Having something bad happen to them doesn't negate that, everyone still love them, everyone still bend over for them. Ike, everyone loves him he's the bond that closed the rift of Laguz and Beorcs, made a man that would rather cut his testicles off find the errors of his ways and rejoin the group. so forth and so on. You act like nothing bad had ever happened to Kamui for his decisions. Which is complete BS as you could *spoiler* I see dead people.

The problem is that it isn't just a character that's a Mary Sue, it's you as one. It's wish fulfillment and while I don't mind it sometimes (I enjoyed Robin) Kamui is overblown, overdone, and boring. And those

Deaths? They're all avoidable besides two in the "canon" ending. Izana and Crimson are the only ones who die out of his fault. And both of them are to PROTECT them. Do they get punished for it? Izana nets them Takumi. Crimson helps break out Gunter. No. Not really. They don't.