Otherkin

[twice]

Also, she should know: It's alright to be different/unique. You do not have to conform by societies standards, and to be herself. Letting her come to her senses isn't doing any harm. But she's still a kid so I wouldn't worry about it too much.. :V

Edited November 30, 2015 by ♡黒猫~

[I.M. Gei]

oh if she's just 13 that's fine

a teenager's baseline is to be a dysfunctional little shit

[Rehab]

Having little to add on the subject itself of otherkin, I'd suggest attempting to exercise a certain kind of empathy, or that you at least consider it.

Imagine somebody (say older family members, friends, and/or somebody who's somehow above you in some pecking order) reacting to something you had said or done with any mixture of incredulity, scorn and/or embarrassment- anything comparable to your reaction towards her. Say also this is something you did indeed later wash your hands of (or would want to), and further something you did indeed later find embarrassing. Maybe leave open the possibility space for this to have been either something you genuinely believed at the time, or something that was in any way a show.

In retrospect, how would you prefer your family/friend/senior have reacted to whatever you did? What sort of response do you think would've done the most good for you, and for your relationship with the given person? Can you imagine that your current answers to the above could possibly change over time? And how can you say how your sister might answer the same questions, given the chance?

I have a particular disposition here. There has been a good share of grudges held in my family, some of the worst of which were conceived in youth and held for many years over pettier stuff than this, and with professionally-diagnosed mental illnesses thrown into the mix over generations. Us owning each other a little bit harder when we were down than strictly necessary a few times probably didn't help, I would guess. And I didn't even need siblings for us to accomplish that.

To be sure, I've been told I have a social anxiety disorder or two and some other brain problems, so to put it mildly I'm more likely to paint the possibilities here with a relatively negative, grandiose brush. I, at least as much as anybody else, have to admit that different people have different reactions to any given stimulus, so your and your sisters' answers to all that above certainly could be different from mine. And you, of course, would know what your sister is like and how she'd react better than I do, at the very least in the short term.

But if I were to answer my own hypothetical in your place, I'd prefer to see some magaminity in those reactions, especially if it turned out nobody needed help to end up regretting what they did in the first place. (Regardless of how well you know your sister, you will probably not have the easiest time accurately predicting whether this will be the case for her over the long term, no matter how annoying she seems about it now.)

Since she has told her friends, it might be safe to assume you're no longer the only other person with any influence over whether she holds onto any otherkin identity or whether it ever causes her any embarrassment, if you ever held that influence. What you might have a deceptively substantial amount of influence over here is how she ends up reacting to the reactions of other people.

To that end, I might suggest you refrain from owning your younger sister to the full extent of your power over this.

[eclipse]

As someone who was once a shitty thirteen-year-old girl, I'm 90% positive she'll look back on this in five years and cringe. One of the things about being a teenager is finding your identity. . .but she's choosing a less-than-healthy way of doing so.

Oh, right. This topic also seems to be attracting more spam than usual. Any and all spam warnings after this post will come with a one-day suspension. If I'm not the one that warns you, I'll tack it on as soon as I find out.

Edited December 1, 2015 by eclipse

[Crysta]

Look at it this way: she probably won't be getting any boyfriends soon.

Well, real life boyfriends anyway. I won't be surprised if she's already found an online community of awesome/cute-animals-only otherkin who accepts her for who she is.

I wouldn't be outright hostile or disbelieving just because it'll probably put you in the "people who just don't understand and are trying to put us down!" category.

[Radiant head]

I had a friend not too long ago who was telling me about otherkin on Tumblr and how he goes on there to laugh at them. I said I thought it was kind of messed up to make fun of some kids who are probably just trying to figure out their place in this crazy, depressing world, but I hadn't really thought of what it might be like to have a friend/family member doing that kind of stuff.

i doubt it's harmful to anyone nor a sign of mental instability though, so I think I would just avoid the "omg are you insane/what is wrong with you" approach to talking to her, but I honestly don't know beyond that

Edited December 1, 2015 by Radiant head

[amiabletemplar]

Your sister is engaging in a childish, or perhaps even childlike (though "telling all her friends" indicates "childish" to me), flight of fancy. Do not indulge it, e.g. don't take her seriously if she tries to use it as an excuse for her behavior or some nonsense like that, but don't harp on her for it either. If it's just a phase, which is most likely, she'll grow out of it in a year or two. My sister went through a vaguely similar phase, where she identified with a character in a manga she read (as far as I can tell, the only manga series she's ever read), and started asking people to call her by the name of the main character. Even our parents. Within, I dunno, six months to a year, she'd dropped it entirely, and by now I bet if you asked her about it, she'd struggle to remember doing it at all.

Part of the adolescent process is forging an identity. Around the age that puberty begins (10-13), adolescents become hungry for a core self, a strong personal definition that will make them as whole and complete as they perceive their parents, elder siblings, teachers, etc. to be. With our modern world, filled with highly detailed fictional characters, it's natural that some people going through the adolescent process will latch onto these personas, quite literally as "masks" (the root word of "persona"), to feel like they have a complete and stable sense of self. Sometimes, this will take the form that my sister exhibited: identifying with a specific fictional character. Other times, it will be more like what your sister is (apparently) doing: identifying with a particular cultural symbol, and the values and qualities that that entails.

If you're truly concerned, or if this seems to be a long-running thing (e.g. she continues talking about being a wolf or a dragon or whatever for a long time, say, over 6 months), consider making some time to sit down and talk with your sister about Big Serious Things. Stuff like whether it's moral or immoral to steal or tell lies if it would save a person's life, or what she thinks of abortion, or (for somewhat less Serious but still IMO "serious" things) what her tastes in movies or music or games are. Ask her questions about why she values things, how the things she values make her feel and think, what consequences arise from the choices made in these works. It can be a tough conversation to have with a young, flighty sibling who just wants to go out and have fun or whatever, but such deep, meaningful chats will both help you understand her, and help build a deeper and more meaningful relationship between the two of you.

Edited December 5, 2015 by amiabletemplar

[princeymarmar]

Hi, there.

Trans eighteen (nearly nineteen) year old otherkin here.

Yes, you read that right.

This entire discussion is extremely off-putting and frankly quite insulting, but here I am, to hopefully provide an education.

1. Otherkin has absolutely nothing to do with gender, or being transgender. Anyone who claims otherkin to be a gender is likely trolling.

However, this doesn't mean the two CANNOT exist hand in hand. Trans otherkin exist. Most otherkin I know are also trans. NEWS FLASH: some trans people discover their identity as being trans because they are otherkin. I didn't fully accept that I was trans until I had a good coping kintype that helped me to accept it.

2. However, by being anti-otherkin, you are likely harming mentally ill people, or going against certain religious spiritual beliefs.

You want to know one of the biggest groups of otherkin? Mentally ill people who use being otherkin as a coping device. Most therapists who are actually any good seem to agree that otherkin is relatively harmless. It helps people cope, and even if it is "just a delusion", it is not a potentially harmful one, and it adds to a stigma against mentally ill people with delusions.

3. Treating this as "something to snap out of" or "something embarrassing she'll regret later" won't help your sister.

Say that this is just a phase, and she does grow out of it. Sure, she might look back on it and be embarrassed, but it won't help her grow and learn as a person! You need to be able to look back on things, sometimes, and think how embarrassing you were. No one should be spared the 13 year old phase.

But say, for a moment, it isn't - that she's thirteen, she's otherkin, she's excited about her new label and proudly telling people about it. You disregarding her identity will make her resent you, for sure. You trying to tell her she's wrong, that she doesn't know any better, that she's making a fool of herself, won't change her mind, and will only deeply harm your relationship.

If she came out as gay, or trans, or something similar, would you tell her she's "too young to know", "it's just a phase", "you'll look back at the decision later and be embarrassed"? No?

Then sit down, do some actual research on otherkin and not just the "tumblr troll blogs" that you and everyone else here seems to be comparing her to, and let your sister live her life.

tldr: otherkin isn't a gender identity or insulting to trans people at all, please leave your sister alone, you're actually harming more than helping.

[Tryhard]

To the above: can you link to any respected scientific research or paper that confirms the existence of such a phenomenon and describes it in some specific detail? If so, I would most certainly be able to see your points.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Tryhard

[princeymarmar]

Unfortunately, I don't currently have the resources or the energy to do that - that entire post was draining to type, because defending your identity is a draining and not very fun thing.

However, the point still stands? There are still trans and mentally ill otherkin. There are still many therapists who wave it away as "nothing truly harmful" (and, really - it's not, because if anything it can help people who are mentally ill - "I'm a wolf, I can beat this anxiety" or "I'm a dragon, nothing else I'm seeing can harm me").

I truly wish I could help more on this subject, and provide actual scientific backup, or surveys, or something, because "education is important" and I would really like people to understand my points - however, I can't do that. I would like you to at least look at my basic points (that otherkin =/= transgender and there are trans otherkin, and that there are many mentally ill otherkin), and at least keep those in mind, if you accept nothing else.

[Tryhard]

I understand, but if you do ever find the time I would be interested in seeing any references, because I seem to be unable to find any. (mind, I haven't spent a very long time searching)

I think my issue is that I find it hard to believe that it is a recognized identity issue at my current state of knowledge, which I'll admit is ignorant. Yeah, I'd argue that it could be harmless if it is a recognized identity issue, but if it's truly just for attention... then feeding them that attention will not solve the problem at all. It may cause them to regress and basically manipulate people for attention for something that they don't truly have. If so, that should be treated as another possible mental illness that should be handled in a very different way.

The reason I equated otherkin with transgender is because of my ignorance on the topic, and that I have never seen a clear definition that is consistent with the various things people claim to otherkin that describes truly what it is. I hope you understand that my dismissal of the concept is because I value scientific evidence to back up the claims of its existence and hence the value of not just treating it as attention-seeking behavior.

That said, I don't go around telling people who identify as otherkin that they are wrong. I currently think it is unhealthy, but I leave them be.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Tryhard

[Knight]

I'm not really against the idea of Otherkin, it's just that at 13 its hard to take anything anyone says as reflective of their future selves. I had all sorts of thoughts about politics, my identity, my future, my spirituality, and my ideology at 13, hardly any of those reflect me as the person I am now. The best course of action would be to let it be, I'm not one for interfering in how people choose to live their lives, and I don't advocate that anyone else should either. The early teenage years are the worst because absolutely no one really knows what they want to be, and they just experiment in the ocean of new knowledge.

[Original Alear]

Mmmm, yummy. . .ahem.

The reason why I don't take the otherkin stuff seriously is because a lot of them seem to identify with popular, "cool" things - wolves, cats, dragons, etc. If there were some actual phenomenon that caused humans to identify with other animals, then there should be stuff like otherkin sugar ants, millipedes, plankton, etc.

It's one thing to have an active imagination, but it's quite another to ask others to modify their behavior because of it. I see this as more of a phase than a serious issue. . .for now.

I don't entirely agree with this. I don't really know much about otherkin and I know this is ridiculous, but I could foresee one arguing that the animals you listed as cool are relatively similar to humans as compared to the other ones, thus it would make sense that an otherkin would be born into the body of a creature relatively similar to what it was meant to be. Of course, I imagine there are more wolf otherkin than chimpanzee otherkin.

[eclipse]

Not quoting this, it's too long. I'll do my best to say what I can in as few words as possible, because typing is hard.

When you found your identity, did you do this:

So basically I've already screwed up by telling all of you? She's definitely type 1, incidentally; she told all her friends at school today.

as well as share it with your family?

Second, puberty is a hell of a transition, in plenty of ways. Think back to when you were thirteen. How many of those ideas do you hold on to now? How has your view on the world changed? Speaking as a former thirteen-year-old girl, I thought I knew everything, and the world would be a better place if only everyone could see it as I did. As I aged, I realized that this view was self-centered and wrong. This is what I mean by stupid ideas in the teenage years. And I'm pretty sure I wasn't mentally ill, either (and I would've been EXTREMELY pissed had you treated me as such).

Her actions look like they're both looking for attention and approval. This is normal for that age. Yes, she'll be mad right now. But in five years, here's some of the possible outcomes:

1. She grows out of it, and looks back on it with embarrassment. She'll understand why she got shit for her behavior, and life will go on.

2. She really is a trans otherkin, and learns enough about the trolling otherkins to understand why she was treated the way she was. She'll probably figure out that she looked like that, which is why TC did his big brother duty and gave her shit for it.

3. She doesn't grow up, and resents TC for giving her shit. That's partially a tragedy and partially a cry for help (and makes a lot more sense as a mental illness, but I don't assume that people have mental illness from the get-go).

I think the first one is the most likely, but only time will tell. Do keep in mind that attention-whoring is far more prevalent than someone who is trans, which is why otherkin are usually treated with contempt until proven otherwise.

I don't entirely agree with this. I don't really know much about otherkin and I know this is ridiculous, but I could foresee one arguing that the animals you listed as cool are relatively similar to humans as compared to the other ones, thus it would make sense that an otherkin would be born into the body of a creature relatively similar to what it was meant to be. Of course, I imagine there are more wolf otherkin than chimpanzee otherkin.

I'm pretty sure the number of primate otherkin pales in comparison to wolves/cats (big and small)/dragons.

[Shin]

Thank you very much for your own experiences with regards to this otherkin thing. You have raised some interesting and somewhat meaningful issues!

1. Otherkin has absolutely nothing to do with gender, or being transgender. Anyone who claims otherkin to be a gender is likely trolling.

Whilst you say that otherkin does not have anything to do with gender, by your own admission a lot of otherkin people also happen to be transgender. Whilst this could be a rather unusual coincidence, you've said yourself that many go through one to get to the other. This suggests there's at least some connection between the two, or that the sort of person who would adopt this otherkin persona would also be likely to take issue with their own perceived gender.

2. However, by being anti-otherkin, you are likely harming mentally ill people, or going against certain religious spiritual beliefs.

In one study group, roughly 46% of people deemed "furries" identified as being less than 100% human. I can't find any data with regards to how many otherkin are furries, but I'd imagine that the proportion is relatively high. True animal spritiuality is unlikely to be a reason for the vast majority, although it's likely adopting "spirituality" is a crutch that helps people with their own identity.

Most of otherkin is either a result of species dysphoria (a fairly understudied set of traits) and/or a degree of fetishism. I'd like to draw parallels between it and other dysphorias, although it would be rather difficult to amend. With gender and body dysphorias, there's some biological basis to their perceived disparity, but it's rather hard to say turn oneself into a badger.

3. Treating this as "something to snap out of" or "something embarrassing she'll regret later" won't help your sister.

As you've mentioned above, his sister's realisation might be just a phase that she's going through, without any sort of identity dysfunction, or it could be something else. I wouldn't criticize blah for being concerned about his sister, it's quite something to be told your sister wants to be a dragon!

Whilst I can appreciate your feels on the matter, it would be beneficial to try and understand an outsider's point of view. It's far easier for someone within the community to accept something like otherkin, and also very easy to forget how other people might perceive it.

Happy Holidays!

[blah the Prussian]

So incidentally, she identifies as a wolf, but it hasn't actually caused any problems. She doesn't gap to wolves, at least not that I know of. The most she ever does is howl, and I am usually able to get her to shut up.

[amiabletemplar]

Unfortunately, I don't currently have the resources or the energy to do that - that entire post was draining to type, because defending your identity is a draining and not very fun thing.

However, the point still stands? There are still trans and mentally ill otherkin. There are still many therapists who wave it away as "nothing truly harmful" (and, really - it's not, because if anything it can help people who are mentally ill - "I'm a wolf, I can beat this anxiety" or "I'm a dragon, nothing else I'm seeing can harm me").

I truly wish I could help more on this subject, and provide actual scientific backup, or surveys, or something, because "education is important" and I would really like people to understand my points - however, I can't do that. I would like you to at least look at my basic points (that otherkin =/= transgender and there are trans otherkin, and that there are many mentally ill otherkin), and at least keep those in mind, if you accept nothing else.

Nothing about what Blah2127 has posted suggests that he sees anything off-kilter about his sister's mental state. It is, of course, entirely possible that she is secretly struggling with an actual issue. However, at least the descriptions we've heard of her behavior--such as "telling all her friends"--are not suggestive of such secret-keeping behavior. They are, instead, very suggestive of attention-seeking behavior, which children (and yes, 13 years old is still a child) are known to engage in. Hell, adults are known to engage in it.

You're correct that believing you're actually a dragon or a wolf or a badger or whatever else is not the same as believing you're a human (just of a different gender). The former is, as you yourself have repeatedly stated, fanciful, though may possibly have use as a coping mechanism.

But here's the thing: if Blah's sister is resorting to such coping mechanisms, and is so desperate for some method of coping with her situation that she's openly and publicly disengaging from the world and replacing it with a made-up fantasy? THAT is what is unhealthy. Using a fanciful self-image to change your feelings about yourself? Possibly an acceptable coping mechanism, as a bridge to recovery, though ideally it won't be needed forever (of course, not all cases are ideal). Allowing a fanciful self-image to substantially shape your outward behavior, such that you start pantomiming the behavior of that self-image instead of engaging in human behavior (e.g. howls and barks instead of speech, jumping out of windows to try to "fly," trying to dig a hole with your bare hands) is not healthy, and is not a coping mechanism, it's a debility. I can accept the former: again, it is a matter of re-shaping your attitudes toward yourself, and thus a personal, cognitive thing. I cannot accept the latter: it is, quite literally, "barking mad."

It's impossible for us to know the precise details of the situation, because we cannot directly observe Blah's sister. All we have is Blah's report, which is naturally incomplete (Blah cannot observe her all the time, and cannot provide her side of the story). Based on Blah's descriptions, though, I do not get a sense of "coping behavior."

Incidentally, this kind of thing is exactly why I suggested what I suggested. In the short term, or if it is not acutely concerning, just ignore it, don't comment either way--which, if it is a coping mechanism, is exactly what you were asking him to do. If it doesn't fade in the long-term, or if it is acutely concerning, have conversations with her about her values and beliefs. Or, in other words, try to find out what's going on under the metaphorical hood. Which, again, is exactly what you appear to want him to do.

It's true that I had assumed it was merely a teenage game, a cry for people to pay attention to her and how special she is. But I still allowed that it could be a serious issue, or the consequence of a serious issue. Your casting of all the other posts in this thread as demeaning and derisive, that nobody was supporting the goals you support when that was manifestly not the case, does not help your cause in the least.

Edited December 10, 2015 by amiabletemplar

[Maritisa]

[snip]

so... how come this response got a lot of, uh, response, while my own post on page 1 didn't? you folks must really hate reading large posts huh

Mm... Though I should take the time to hound the net for professional research on this subject at some point, if only for the sake of credibility... This area of the psyche is particularly understudied, really. It's kind of strange I feel, these sorts of phenomena are particularly fascinating to me. ^{_{Perhaps for that very reason...}}

[eclipse]

So incidentally, she identifies as a wolf, but it hasn't actually caused any problems. She doesn't gap to wolves, at least not that I know of. The most she ever does is howl, and I am usually able to get her to shut up.

. . .yeah, that's attention-seeking. I hope she doesn't do this in public!

I'm positive my parents would've yelled at me if I did anything like this.

[Shin]

. . .yeah, that's attention-seeking. I hope she doesn't do this in public!

I'm positive my parents would've yelled at me if I did anything like this.

Whilst embarrassing, at least it should provide some comfort to blah! Just keep an eye on it, it sounds like it's a phase she'll get bored of soon!

[blah the Prussian]

...yes she does it in public. Although it is only at night.

[eclipse]

As a big brother, it is your duty to REMIND her that being an attention-seeking person is absolutely not acceptable! My dad said that his goal was to raise a decent adult, and that meant making sure some of the more undesirable behaviors were curbed.

I also hope that if she's posting about this online, she's not doing it under her real name. This will affect her in the future.

Then, if she gets married, make sure to mention this at her wedding

[Naughx]

Maybe you could record her with your phone or something, then show it to her?

---

I'm pretty sure she will stop after a while...

Kids are dumb, if you threaten to record them they would surely stop.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Naughx

[Parrhesia]

Reiterating Eclipse's point. Whatever you think of otherkin (in my case? Not a whole lot positive), it's currently being channeled into unacceptable social behaviour. Even if she does grow out of being otherkin (she probably will), a disregard for social convention might well stick around, and that is going to be seriously harmful throughout her life.

That's definitely something to have a conversation about. Public life demands different behaviours and has different pressures to private, or to the safety of a sympathetic internet community.

Should add, by the way, that you have my sympathy - this is a difficult situation to deal with. Hopefully there's an easy way through it, for you and for your sister.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Parrhesia

[amiabletemplar]

so... how come this response got a lot of, uh, response, while my own post on page 1 didn't? you folks must really hate reading large posts huh

Mm... Though I should take the time to hound the net for professional research on this subject at some point, if only for the sake of credibility... This area of the psyche is particularly understudied, really. It's kind of strange I feel, these sorts of phenomena are particularly fascinating to me. ^{_{Perhaps for that very reason...}}

I'll be honest--I don't remember seeing your original post when I first read the thread. It's possible that, as I sometimes do with a new thread, I read only the OP and the first couple of responses, when I posted for the first time. I don't really remember either way. I have a tendency to want my thoughts to be my own, and possibly an excessive preoccupation with wanting to avoid having the answers of others "jump in front" of my own, metaphorically speaking.

It would be interesting to see what research you find, though it will be important to...well, I guess "keep an open mind" is the appropriate phrase, but it doesn't quite have the texture I want. I'm skeptical; if I were to go looking for research, I would have to make a special effort to remain fair and consistent when judging research that supports the use of "otherkin"-like fanciful self-imagery for healing purposes (such as, but not limited to, the example we've both discussed, overcoming lingering unhealthy self-perceptions). You, on the other hand, have a completely appropriate vested interest in finding studies with specifically positive conclusions, rather than neutral (e.g. "we looked, no statistically significant effect was observed") or negative (e.g. "we looked, a statistically significant negative effect was observed") conclusions. So, when you do cry havok, and let slip the dogs of Google, consider whether you're giving non-positive evidence the same level of skeptical treatment you give positive evidence. I only say this, not because I doubt you in particular, but because we all suffer from these biases--I'm disappointed, though not ashamed, to admit that I suffer from them far, far more often than I'd like, and must continually work to overcome them.

Edited December 12, 2015 by amiabletemplar