A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

[Nanima]

I agree partly with you view on Conquest, however I think the true failing of the story is that it refuses to accept it's own grey nature. Or rather Corrin's grey nature.

From the outset, the morally grey nature of allying with Nohr in order to invade Hoshido is never painted in tha light. Rather, Corrin continues to insist that they only want peace for both nations and everyone just needs to believe in them. Takumi in particular is immediately villainized for not putting more faith in Corrin, despite him only knowing them as the stranger who one day showed up on their doorstep, (indirectly, but he doesn't know this) got their mother killed and then immediately joined back up with the faction planning to invade his homeland. Yet everyone is like 'Why can't he put more trust in Corrin').

Once the plot device of the crystal ball shows up (which conveniantly breaks and Azura never bothers to show it to anyone besides Corrin), the game takes a complete nosedive. The choice of invading Hoshido just to put Garon on a shiny chair, is pretty fucking grey since it means willingly allowing Hoshido to be destroyed in favor of Nohr. Yet it is not only presented as "the only choice", and neither corrin or Azura spend any time thinking of an alternative, but it is presented as a noble sacrifice on Corrin's part. They are shown as a borderline messianic figure for enduring all this pain to achieve their end goal of world peace. Never is it aknowledged that getting thousands of Hoshidans killed is a pretty damn dark, and certainly far from a morally good choice.

Then when they finally do rebel against Garon, it is presented as a complete triumphant moment, rather than a final desperate attempt to put things right. Oh and then possessed!Takumi shows up, shoots Corrin into unconcsiousness, and we get the most undisguised view of how the writers failed to understand their own story. Takumi shows up all friendly and apologizes to Corrin for his own actions. Now please enlighten me as to what he did wrong, besides hurting poor Corrin's feelings? It shows that the messianic portrayal of Corrin was exactly what the writers were aiming for. If Corrin had been the one to apologize for their part in getting Hoshido destroyed and both Ryouma and Takumi killed, I would be a lot less salty about this story.

In the end, all the moral greyness of the story fails in the face of the writers efforts to be sure that Corrin is a completely likeable saint, who can do nothing wrong. Anyone who dislikes them is either a two-dimensional caricature or gets taught the error of their ways.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

the conquest read was pretty fun, a nice change in pace from the usual doom and gloom, but i do agree that it did need more focus and work to be a fantastic story, instead of one that just works.

with that said

i'd honestly rather take conquest's "we tried something new, it didn't work out, but we tried" over birthright's "playing it safe story" and revelations "lets try to make fire emblem the next zero escape game in terms of story"

[Lanko]

Agree with everything Nanima said. As much as I laugh from the Takumi memes, he was totally justified and right in despising Corrin. He even was proactive and took matters in his own hands many times to defend Hoshido while all the others just sit by and waited.

The only problem is that his dialogue could have been a bit better for that.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Lanko

[Dark Sage]

For the FULL story, you need to dip into DLC.

While it explains a lot of things, the actual explanation is really bad and nonsensical.

I think the other problem with Fates (not just Conquest) is the sibling interaction. Conquest does a better job than Birthright, but overall, the siblings were somewhat of an afterthought in the story. IMO, they should've been giving direct advice to Corrin, and given Corrin's background, a lot of it.

Also another problem is that with the exception of Leo and Takumi, all of them coddle Corrin and enable their naievete, which stunts their growth as a character. We never really see them argue with Corrin or disagree with them, which siblings do all the time. One of the reasons why Sothe and Micaiah have a much more convincing relationship is because while they do clearly care about each other and do stick together to the end, they disagree on a lot and express that quite often. You know, like real siblings. All of the siblings also pay far more attention to Corrin than each other, which feels highly unnatural.

More than anything though, Conquest's biggest problem is it's pacing and how the developers try to force parallel events with Birthright. There's no reason for a chapter where Elise gets sick or Corrin kills the kitsune other than to parallel Takuki's illness and the battle against the wolfskin in Birthright. The first part is mostly Corrin going to random places and put down rebellions in places that are introduced for one map and then never brought up again. Even after you set sail towards Hoshido, you don't start invading for like, six chapters. Instead, you mostly just wander around Mokushujin, Izumo, and the Wind Tribe's territory. These events could honestly be cut and you'd miss nothing narrative wise. It also makes the last part of the game.

It also would have made more sense if the A support requirement to keep Kaze was on this route, since his whole reasoning is that he believes Corrin can change things on the inside, even though literally two chapters later, they show they can do jack shit, and this happens several times. It would've been more meaningful to need an A rank to keep him from deserting or turning on you rather than needing an A rank to prevent a pointless death that has nothing to do with how he feels about Corrin.

[Thane]

Also another problem is that with the exception of Leo and Takumi, all of them coddle Corrin and enable their naievete, which stunts their growth as a character. We never really see them argue with Corrin or disagree with them, which siblings do all the time. One of the reasons why Sothe and Micaiah have a much more convincing relationship is because while they do clearly care about each other and do stick together to the end, they disagree on a lot and express that quite often. You know, like real siblings. All of the siblings also pay far more attention to Corrin than each other, which feels highly unnatural.

More than anything though, Conquest's biggest problem is it's pacing and how the developers try to force parallel events with Birthright. There's no reason for a chapter where Elise gets sick or Corrin kills the kitsune other than to parallel Takuki's illness and the battle against the wolfskin in Birthright. The first part is mostly Corrin going to random places and put down rebellions in places that are introduced for one map and then never brought up again. Even after you set sail towards Hoshido, you don't start invading for like, six chapters. Instead, you mostly just wander around Mokushujin, Izumo, and the Wind Tribe's territory. These events could honestly be cut and you'd miss nothing narrative wise. It also makes the last part of the game.

It also would have made more sense if the A support requirement to keep Kaze was on this route, since his whole reasoning is that he believes Corrin can change things on the inside, even though literally two chapters later, they show they can do jack shit, and this happens several times. It would've been more meaningful to need an A rank to keep him from deserting or turning on you rather than needing an A rank to prevent a pointless death that has nothing to do with how he feels about Corrin.

I wish I was as eloquent as you, but I'll just settle for giving you a virtual thumbs up.

As for the OP, it's interesting to read about your opinions, and you formulate them well, but I'm a bit surprised that you're this lenient towards Conquest. Mind you, I'm not trying to change your opinion of it, but if we're being truly sardonic here, I find it odd that you don't mention the many plot contrivances such as the crystal ball and that Corrin doesn't try to talk to his siblings about what he saw before it was conveniently destroyed - or that they didn't gather everyone and THEN used it.

I do agree though that most of Conquest's more glaring issues could've been solved by simply rewriting Garon a bit. It would most certainly not make it fantastic, but it would be a good place to begin and it would allow the story to explore what could've been a complex setting more.

[joshcja]

Dunno even with Garon rewritten I feel like conquest would need another 20 chapters to write a really compelling narrative. (I'm fine with the sidequests lol)

That may stem from my neverending desire to play more conquest though. x.x (That gameplay tho)

Edited March 26, 2016 by joshcja

[Nintales]

I liked the Conquest read.

But now you just made me imagine Pelleas with the Garon Trollface. Well done.

[Leif]

I wish I was as eloquent as you, but I'll just settle for giving you a virtual thumbs up.

As for the OP, it's interesting to read about your opinions, and you formulate them well, but I'm a bit surprised that you're this lenient towards Conquest. Mind you, I'm not trying to change your opinion of it, but if we're being truly sardonic here, I find it odd that you don't mention the many plot contrivances such as the crystal ball and that Corrin doesn't try to talk to his siblings about what he saw before it was conveniently destroyed - or that they didn't gather everyone and THEN used it.

I do agree though that most of Conquest's more glaring issues could've been solved by simply rewriting Garon a bit. It would most certainly not make it fantastic, but it would be a good place to begin and it would allow the story to explore what could've been a complex setting more.

The crystal ball thing didn't offend me as much as King Garon. For Conquest's set up to work, you kinda have to stick with the crystal ball and invisible kingdom story, unfortunately. If we were to change that, we would have to scrap the whole plot and build it up again. I'd love to do something like that, but I have no time for that, sadly.

You're right, fixing King Garon wouldn't make this plot picture perfect, but it would have been, in my opinion, the best plot in the series due to the fact that the lord and player are faced with really difficult situations where they must do things they don't agree too. Other Fire Emblems don't challenge the player that way. I guess I was happy that this Fire Emblem really did try something new. Though it was far from perfect, it was, at least, a step in the right direction.

Also, Conquest's gameplay is the best out of the three routes. Not going to lie.

Great post. I only read Conquest, as is the only route I played.

Do you think Marth-Hardin in Mystery of the Emblem successfully pulled out the "obeying a tyrant, then rebelling against him"? I remember you start obeying his orders to attack a nation, then Marth start questioning him and later openly rebels.

Well, there was that, but it wasn't quite done as well as Conquest. Mystery starts off just fine, but then becomes the same, cliched "young lord vs evil empire" story arc all over again. There wasn't quite the level of deception and backstabbing that was in Conquest. I guess I should have brought FE3 up, but Mystery, honestly, didn't impress me too much in terms of its story.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Leif

[joshcja]

Dunno, being flat forced to kill off the wolf guard in og mystery was absolutely painful to me, more so than anything before or after.

[Lanko]

I wish I was as eloquent as you, but I'll just settle for giving you a virtual thumbs up.

As for the OP, it's interesting to read about your opinions, and you formulate them well, but I'm a bit surprised that you're this lenient towards Conquest. Mind you, I'm not trying to change your opinion of it, but if we're being truly sardonic here, I find it odd that you don't mention the many plot contrivances such as the crystal ball and that Corrin doesn't try to talk to his siblings about what he saw before it was conveniently destroyed - or that they didn't gather everyone and THEN used it.

I do agree though that most of Conquest's more glaring issues could've been solved by simply rewriting Garon a bit. It would most certainly not make it fantastic, but it would be a good place to begin and it would allow the story to explore what could've been a complex setting more.

I was thinking about the crystal ball too, and as much as I disliked it too, didn't it actually made sense that Azura showed it only to Corrin?

I mean, at the end of Conquest, even after you conquered Hoshido, Xander threatens to kill you if what you said about Gooron is a lie. And that's because you are a dear sibling who is loved and treated as a blood relative by him and just conquered the enemy nation.

So why would the nohrian siblings trust Azura and her crystal ball? She's a total stranger to them (Camilla doesn't even have supports with her), that lived her entire life in Hoshido and could very well be a spy and a threat, specially considering the fact Chapter 15 happens after the Opera House event.

Even after seeing Gooron's true form directly in front of them they cannot take action, including Leo. Would they really have acted against their own father based on an orb from Azura that he is a slime and not the person they once knew?

It probably should have been included in the script, but I think Azura might have thought about this. She had just come back to Nohr and knows only Corrin reasonably, who is struggling with the choice as much as her (and also had the Yato). She most likely would just anger the other siblings and draw attention and danger to herself.

Sure, they could have thought of more ways, or indirectly tried to tell the other siblings something was wrong with Garon and not just kept silent about it until the end, or tried it later with another crystal ball (she could just enter a lake and get another, right?) but in that specific time it could make sense she only told Corrin.

[Thane]

The crystal ball thing didn't offend me as much as King Garon. For Conquest's set up to work, you kinda have to stick with the crystal ball and invisible kingdom story, unfortunately. If we were to change that, we would have to scrap the whole plot and build it up again. I'd love to do something like that, but I have no time for that, sadly.

You're right, fixing King Garon wouldn't make this plot picture perfect, but it would have been, in my opinion, the best plot in the series due to the fact that the lord and player are faced with really difficult situations where they must do things they don't agree too. Other Fire Emblems don't challenge the player that way. I guess I was happy that this Fire Emblem really did try something new. Though it was far from perfect, it was, at least, a step in the right direction.

Also, Conquest's gameplay is the best out of the three routes. Not going to lie.

Oh Conquest's gameplay is freaking sweet, I think we can all agree on that, hence why I didn't think it was a point of discussion in this thread.

I agree, the premise itself is great, and I think it's interesting to have the protagonists in such a difficult position. However, Conquest never treats Corrin as being in the wrong. They're given the ability to win entire battles without killing a single person (an ability that comes and goes; Hinoka doesn't suffer a single casualty at first but then you pretty much kill all of the Nine-tails) and everybody ends up forgiving them for invading Hoshido even though they've got absolutely no reason to do so.

While I like the concept, it's simply too littered with too many outrageous elements that I can't like the story. Not only is the invasion of Hoshido simply not justified in the current story, but even if that were to be fixed I would've liked seeing Corrin and the siblings trying to build alliances within Nohr to topple Garon and steer the nation in the right direction.

The potential is there, and while many problems come from Garon, there are so many more things to fix. I wouldn't even call this a step in the right direction; at best I would say that I'm glad that they're trying something new, but they failed on almost every level.

I was thinking about the crystal ball too, and as much as I disliked it too, didn't it actually made sense that Azura showed it only to Corrin?

I mean, at the end of Conquest, even after you conquered Hoshido, Xander threatens to kill you if what you said about Gooron is a lie. And that's because you are a dear sibling who is loved and treated as a blood relative by him and just conquered the enemy nation.

So why would the nohrian siblings trust Azura and her crystal ball? She's a total stranger to them (Camilla doesn't even have supports with her), that lived her entire life in Hoshido and could very well be a spy and a threat, specially considering the fact Chapter 15 happens after the Opera House event.

Even after seeing Gooron's true form directly in front of them they cannot take action, including Leo. Would they really have acted against their own father based on an orb from Azura that he is a slime and not the person they once knew?

It probably should have been included in the script, but I think Azura might have thought about this. She had just come back to Nohr and knows only Corrin reasonably, who is struggling with the choice as much as her (and also had the Yato). She most likely would just anger the other siblings and draw attention and danger to herself.

Sure, they could have thought of more ways, or indirectly tried to tell the other siblings something was wrong with Garon and not just kept silent about it until the end, or tried it later with another crystal ball (she could just enter a lake and get another, right?) but in that specific time it could make sense she only told Corrin.

Then why did she give it to Leo in Birthright? Why wouldn't Corrin even suggest showing it to the others? Why did it break? Where did it come from? There are so many questions surrounding it that we're all left guessing over something that changes the entire direction of the narrative, which is something that really shouldn't happen in any story.

Leo even asks why Corrin didn't say anything until the very last minute, and they have no answer; Azura handwaves it away saying that they couldn't, and that's it.

Also, I feel like it's a huge disservice to every major character involved not to clue them in on the entire goal of the story. There's no discussion about the moral dilemma of killing your own father, no real talk about what kind of man Garon used to be etc. - there's simply no chance for the other major characters to get involved with the plot itself, reducing them to exposition bots throughout the story as opposed to real characters.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Thane

[MCProductions]

Well OP, next time I defend Conquest's narrative I will likely link to this. My thoughts and yours are very similar on this, even down to it being one of the series better plots if only Garon was handled differently.

As it stands, I'd put Conquest middle of road in terms of series writing quality, Birthright a few games behind it, and Revelations somewhere in between Conquest and Birthright.

[saisymbolic]

Another great write up. I agree with just about everything.

That's the thing with Fates, particularly Conquest. It suffers from being a game with two parts that is supposed to lead up to Revelations. I watched a Batman v. Superman review by Chris Stuckmann on YouTube and one major problem he had with the movie was

that it was constantly trying to lead up into a sequel

, whereas in Deadpool, it focused on being its own movie and it came out stronger. I feel that is the same problem that Fates suffers from the most, honestly. Instead of trying to be its own standalone story, IS was trying too hard to point hints towards what we know as Revelations.

I feel like without Revelations, the story of Fates perhaps would have been a bit stronger, even with its plot contrivances--because that is mostly where they stem from. Without Revelations, there is no need for Gooron, the crystal ball, the Invisible Kingdom. It would be forced to find another angle to support the two stories on--hence the whole premise of Conquest invading Hoshido for a lack of resources, giving us a game with grey morality.

Edited March 26, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Lanko]

Then why did she give it to Leo in Birthright? Why wouldn't Corrin even suggest showing it to the others? Why did it break? Where did it come from? There are so many questions surrounding it that we're all left guessing over something that changes the entire direction of the narrative, which is something that really shouldn't happen in any story.

Leo even asks why Corrin didn't say anything until the very last minute, and they have no answer; Azura handwaves it away saying that they couldn't, and that's it.

Also, I feel like it's a huge disservice to every major character involved not to clue them in on the entire goal of the story. There's no discussion about the moral dilemma of killing your own father, no real talk about what kind of man Garon used to be etc. - there's simply no chance for the other major characters to get involved with the plot itself, reducing them to exposition bots throughout the story as opposed to real characters.

Haven't played BR yet, but what did Leo do with this information? I already got spoiled that Xander and Elise die, so I'm guessing nothing. I would hate to think CQ happens because nobody knows, BR you might have one ally and REV everybody sees it, believes it and agrees to be together.

And in BR she stays in Hoshido and just meets Leo, I'm guessing. It's different than if she did that in Nohr, nobody believed her and the siblings became hostile to her. In BR she was safe from this so she could show it to Leo. That's what I'm guessing.

I agree with Corrin not even suggesting showing it to others, but he also was actually in a bad spot with Iago and trying to be in Garon's good graces for his "plan". Again, Xander threatens to kill him in the last chapter and who knows what would be their reaction (although we could credit that to bad writing, as this blind Xander seems to contradict his behavior in some support convos or even when he disobeys Garon during the story).

I think the crystal came from that other world and it broke because it came to this plane? Who knows. I agree it's bad. Why didn't she just entered another lake and got another?

Leo asked that, but he also couldn't take action against Gooron in CQ and apparently did nothing in BR either.

Bah, in the end it all comes down to Gooron. If he didn't exist the ball could've been used for something else and wouldn't matter, probably. I agree with the moral dilemmas, even though the siblings showed their reluctance and there were some supports talking about real Garon, it was something you had to dig when it should have been in the main script, like with Lyon.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Lanko

[Natsu_T]

Nice write-up. Have you written one of these for Awakening by any chance? I personally love Awakening's story and cannot for the life of me see anything wrong with it. I pretty much agree with your points on just how terrible Fates' plots are, but I just have so much love for Awakening's story and I cannot understand where people are coming from when they say they dislike it.

[saisymbolic]

Nice write-up. Have you written one of these for Awakening by any chance? I personally love Awakening's story and cannot for the life of me see anything wrong with it. I pretty much agree with your points on just how terrible Fates' plots are, but I just have so much love for Awakening's story and I cannot understand where people are coming from when they say they dislike it.

Awakening has a few plot-related issues that people have, along with the whole Avatar-can-S-rank-everyone support system. Overall, I think Awakening has the more solid story but only because it is on a smaller scale than Fates. Fates has three semi-intertwined games for people to rip a part so the flaws are easier to see. Combined with the fact that the writers spent too much time attempting to setup the third route, they leave several loose ends, odd dialogue and questionable actions from the characters in-game.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Thane]

Haven't played BR yet, but what did Leo do with this information? I already got spoiled that Xander and Elise die, so I'm guessing nothing. I would hate to think CQ happens because nobody knows, BR you might have one ally and REV everybody sees it, believes it and agrees to be together.

I agree with Corrin not even suggesting showing it to others, but he also was actually in a bad spot with Iago and trying to be in Garon's good graces for his "plan". Again, Xander threatens to kill him in the last chapter and who knows what would be their reaction (although we could credit that to bad writing, as this blind Xander seems to contradict his behavior in some support convos or even when he disobeys Garon during the story).

I think the crystal came from that other world and it broke because it came to this plane? Who knows. I agree it's bad. Why didn't she just entered another lake and got another?

Leo asked that, but he also couldn't take action against Gooron in CQ and apparently did nothing in BR either.

Bah, in the end it all comes down to Gooron. If he didn't exist the ball could've been used for something else and wouldn't matter, probably. I agree with the moral dilemmas, even though the siblings showed their reluctance and there were some supports talking about real Garon, it was something you had to dig when it should have been in the main script, like with Lyon.

He leaves for a while after a battle with Corrin and admits he never hated them for the choice they made, but he doesn't want to fight against his father or siblings. Azura then gives him the crystal ball and he returns to kill Iago (probably to make sure the noble Hoshidans don't get blood on their hands) and then leaves again.

Of course it's bad writing that Xander threatens to kill Corrin. We're led to believe this guy is a good guy who cares so deeply about his family and nation, yet he thinks Corrin might have waited all that time to betray them in spite of all the hardships they had had to endure. It makes no sense; Xander is one of the worst playable characters in Fire Emblem in the main story, which clashes with his supports in which he's a pretty cool guy.

My question is this: why are the siblings even in Conquest? What do they contribute? Azura and Corrin have a plan and the rest don't know about it. They don't have any meaningful character interactions over what they're doing, and since they're not part of the plan, they have no character development; they clench their fists in their pockets and keep on serving their father. Their little throwaway comments about not being able to kill him in spite of being attacked by a slime monster comes out of nowhere since all we've seen from them points to them not agreeing with Garon about anything - also, they come across as incredibly stupid just standing still and waiting to be attacked. I realize that we're supposed to sympathize with them, but because they've had zero involvement with the plot and by extension Garon I find it impossible to care.

Also, another thing I'm surprised wasn't mentioned is the chapter in which you fight against Zola to save the Hoshidan siblings. First of all, Corrin doesn't take the opportunity to talk or discuss things with the other side, which is odd since at least Hinoka would give him the benefit of the doubt since Corrin spared all of her men. Instead Corrin starts making jokes and enjoys the stale atmosphere. Also, wasn't Xander's plan to kill all of the Hoshidan royals in chapter six and as such there'd be less bloodshed, but we kill Zola for wanting to do the same thing?

I could go on, but there's so, so much to go through; didn't we have a thread about Corrin and Conquest? Maybe we should resume the discussion there.

[solrocknroll]

I see Garon as a great character. He doesn't have any "human" motivations for trying to conquer Hoshido, but who needs them? They only serve to weigh a story down. Garon's insane grasp for all the power makes him that much better to me. I also loved Hans and Iago because they were evil for the sake of it. Those are the most fun villains.

Conquest's story is called terrible, but I love it because of the reasons people find it terrible. I hate gray morality in stories and find that it's never used well at all.

Birthright uses the old FE tropes and I like it better though. It being the perfect white morality kingdom made me like it even more. The characters are vastly more interesting than Conquest with cool characters like Orochi, Azama, and Setsuna. I love the "evil kingdom invades good kingdom and good kingdom fights back" stories. FE1 has one of my favorite stories in the series for this reason. I absolutely adore basic plots and both games had exactly what I was looking for.

[saisymbolic]

Like, I understand all the qualms with Conquest's story but I still prefer it over Birthright because it is not the same copy-paste "good lord vs. evil kingdom" story. If I wanted that, I would have played an earlier FE game or even another series entirely.

The fact that IS wanted to do something different speaks a lot to me. They tried it and it failed in several ways, in terms of story. I still commend them for that because, hey, they tried something new. It gives me hope that they will look at this game, see the mistakes, learn from those mistakes and create a better story for the next installment.

Not everyone can get something on the first try. Not everyone is a Subaki, Caeldori or a Cordelia.

Edited March 26, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[solrocknroll]

I don't really understand why people don't like the "evil kingdom crushing good kingdom and good kingdom fighting back" story. It doesn't make sense.

It was the foundation this series was founded on. Most of the series is based on this. It's been a thing for so long that it's a series staple now.

[saisymbolic]

I don't really understand why people don't like the "evil kingdom crushing good kingdom and good kingdom fighting back" story. It doesn't make sense.

It was the foundation this series was founded on. Most of the series is based on this. It's been a thing for so long that it's a series staple now.

It's not that I personally don't like it. I like it but that doesn't mean I don't want to see them try something different. You can have that staple but there are many different things you can do with it. They played it safe with Birthright; that's fine.

It's just like FE x SMT. We all thought it was going to be a stereotypical crossover. Look at what it has become. I like seeing medias that can take a cliche and transform it into something different. I get tired of seeing the same thing wrapped in a different box.

My family grew up on corn bread and collard greens but that doesn't mean I don't want some french fries every now and again.

Edited March 26, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Leif]

Holy replies! I can't keep up! :o

Another great write up. I agree with just about everything.

That's the thing with Fates, particularly Conquest. It suffers from being a game with two parts that is supposed to lead up to Revelations. I watched a Batman v. Superman review by Chris Stuckmann on YouTube and one major problem he had with the movie was

that it was constantly trying to lead up into a sequel

, whereas in Deadpool focused on being its own movie and it came out stronger. I feel that is the same problem that Fates suffers from the most, honestly. Instead of trying to be its own standalone story, IS was trying too hard to point hints towards what we know as Revelations.

I feel like without Revelations, the story of Fates perhaps would have been a bit stronger, even with its plot contrivances--because that is mostly where they stem from. Without Revelations, there is no need for Gooron, the crystal ball, the Invisible Kingdom. It would be forced to find another angle to support the two stories on--hence the whole premise of Conquest invading Hoshido for a lack of resources, giving us a game with grey morality.

YES. This is so true.

If Intelligent Systems wasn't pushing for stupid Valla, we could have had more time for world building. Also, what if we had, instead of children paralogues, side quests that related to cultural and historical facts of both Nohrian and Hoshidan cultures? These side quests could have been used to create a more engaging world.

Nice write-up. Have you written one of these for Awakening by any chance? I personally love Awakening's story and cannot for the life of me see anything wrong with it. I pretty much agree with your points on just how terrible Fates' plots are, but I just have so much love for Awakening's story and I cannot understand where people are coming from when they say they dislike it.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I could write a 90 page paper on everything wrong with Awakening.

It's Shadow Dragon with time travel. TIME TRAVEL. Not to rain on your parade, but I don't share your fondness of Awakening. I would play Birthright 500 times over rather than slog through Awakening.

He leaves for a while after a battle with Corrin and admits he never hated them for the choice they made, but he doesn't want to fight against his father or siblings. Azura then gives him the crystal ball and he returns to kill Iago (probably to make sure the noble Hoshidans don't get blood on their hands) and then leaves again.

Of course it's bad writing that Xander threatens to kill Corrin. We're led to believe this guy is a good guy who cares so deeply about his family and nation, yet he thinks Corrin might have waited all that time to betray them in spite of all the hardships they had had to endure. It makes no sense; Xander is one of the worst playable characters in Fire Emblem in the main story, which clashes with his supports in which he's a pretty cool guy.

My question is this: why are the siblings even in Conquest? What do they contribute? Azura and Corrin have a plan and the rest don't know about it. They don't have any meaningful character interactions over what they're doing, and since they're not part of the plan, they have no character development; they clench their fists in their pockets and keep on serving their father. Their little throwaway comments about not being able to kill him in spite of being attacked by a slime monster comes out of nowhere since all we've seen from them points to them not agreeing with Garon about anything - also, they come across as incredibly stupid just standing still and waiting to be attacked. I realize that we're supposed to sympathize with them, but because they've had zero involvement with the plot and by extension Garon I find it impossible to care.

Also, another thing I'm surprised wasn't mentioned is the chapter in which you fight against Zola to save the Hoshidan siblings. First of all, Corrin doesn't take the opportunity to talk or discuss things with the other side, which is odd since at least Hinoka would give him the benefit of the doubt since Corrin spared all of her men. Instead Corrin starts making jokes and enjoys the stale atmosphere. Also, wasn't Xander's plan to kill all of the Hoshidan royals in chapter six and as such there'd be less bloodshed, but we kill Zola for wanting to do the same thing?

I could go on, but there's so, so much to go through; didn't we have a thread about Corrin and Conquest? Maybe we should resume the discussion there.

I forgot about Corrin sparing enemy soldiers. This is why I need a script to refer to. I don't want to slog through someone else's youtube let's play of the Fates to find specific lines of dialogue.

That was silly in IS's part. It only worked for the Ice Tribe rebellion, because Corrin needed to have some form of success in order to save her own skin. Other than that, I don't believe that the Hoshidans, like in chapter 10, only escaped with injuries after I had my units hurl fire balls and rain arrows down on them.

I don't really understand why people don't like the "evil kingdom crushing good kingdom and good kingdom fighting back" story. It doesn't make sense.

It was the foundation this series was founded on. Most of the series is based on this. It's been a thing for so long that it's a series staple now.

It's getting boring and predictable. We need something that encapsulates the moral grayness of human conflict. There is both good and bad to both sides of a conflict. Tactics Ogre was the only game (to my knowledge) that really gets that point across. then it had to be all stupid with it's final climax ugh

Edited March 26, 2016 by Leif

[joshcja]

I'm fine with ye olde good triumphs over evil. Some things never go out of style.

Birthright is just the most boring cookie cutter example of that archetype possible.

[Lanko]

I forgot about Corrin sparing enemy soldiers. This is why I need a script to refer to. I don't want to slog through someone else's youtube let's play of the Fates to find specific lines of dialogue.

That was dumb, it only worked for the Ice Tribe rebellion, because Corrin needed to have some form of success in order to save her own skin. Other than that, I don't believe that the Hoshidans, like in chapter 10, only escaped with injuries after I had my units hurl fire balls and rain arrows down on them.

About this, I've just beat chapter 22 on my 2nd playthrough of Conquest. Garon and Iago order everyone killed, but Yukimura and Sakura are spared without any explanation, then later they want proof Hinoka is dead and then want you to personally execute Ryouma.

[solrocknroll]

Just because human conflict is morally gray doesn't make it interesting. Gray stories are boring and try overly hard to get you to sympathize with the other side.

Take Suikoden II for instance. Luca Blight has an excuse similar to say Peri, but he's still a monster who kills for fun. The second antagonist from Suikoden II tries to have human motivation and he's far less interesting than Luca. Suikoden as a whole seems to utterly encapsulate the kind of stories I like. I don't play games to force myself to reevaluate my views on society and morality. The Laguz topic in Path of Radiance was well done, but it was the extent of what I like.

I like Awakening and Birthright and Shadow Dragon most of all, but my other favorite game plots come from Pokemon and Xenoblade. Metal Face is another example of a magnificent horrible person antagonist who I love.

I prefer my villains to be massive elder gods.