A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

[eclipse]

Is that really what happens? New Mystery is the only game I haven't played yet, but I probably won't bother if that's what happens. It's one thing to make a player avatar look better than everyone else (I can think of very few games involving player avatars that don't do that to some extent, and half of them are Dark Souls/Bloodborne, but actively changing a pre-existing story to involve a player avatar that upstages everyone else is unforgivably bad).

I strongly suggest playing the game yourself and making your own judgment. Just like Fates (though I will blame NoE being late for this one).

[RJWalker]

Is that really what happens? New Mystery is the only game I haven't played yet, but I probably won't bother if that's what happens. It's one thing to make a player avatar look better than everyone else (I can think of very few games involving player avatars that don't do that to some extent, and half of them are Dark Souls/Bloodborne, but actively changing a pre-existing story to involve a player avatar that upstages everyone else is unforgivably bad).

The games every oppurtunity it gets to upstage Marth or the other important characters by changing their deeds and ideas into Kris' deeds and ideas.

[Jedi]

Despite that New Mystery has the best designed Lunatic mode in the series, if you can look past Kris being bland and taking some lines.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Hmm, I'll probably try it out then. I'll probably like the gameplay, but my opinion of the story is going to depend heavily on how bad Kris steals the spotlight.

[NekoKnight]

As much as I want to agree with OP on Conquest, the flaws with the story are far too numerous to simplify it down to "fix Garon". It sounds like I'm biased when I say Conquest did almost everything wrong, but I think it's true. Nanima already mentioned the issue with painting the Avatar as a saint, despite the morally grey premise but here is another problem that deserves equal criticism.

[spoiler=Do you want to support a war of aggression? Yes or Yes?]

The plot keeps trying to push the plot towards the conquest of Hoshido, contrary to all logic. As we can see in both Conquest and the other routes, Kamui is a highly principled individual, so why would he side with a nation run by clearly evil people? To protect his siblings, and nothing else, apparently. Some would say this is an understandable goal but it also requires the pointless sacrifice of another nation. So if Kamui won't take a stand for justice, who will? Azura? No, she's too focused on withholding valuable information and misleading you into thinking the invasion is the only option. How about the siblings? All equally ineffectual and spineless as Kamui with an added bonus of not actually caring about the moral ramifications of invading Hoshido.

The story wants the invasion to happen but it relies on a mountain of plot contrivances and stupidity for it to work. 1. Azura doesn't tell Kamui about the true villain despite having the perfect chance to. 2. She only shows Kamui the crystal ball instead of the other siblings, and then the ball shatters for some reason. 3. Kamui agrees to supporting the invasion, without considering other options, even though it's completely contrary to his stated goals. 4. Iago is, for no reason, always watching you so you can't do anything suspicious. 5. Even if the siblings knew the truth, they wouldn't support you, even though they are your family. Marx even mistrusts you AFTER you conquer your homeland for Nohr!

And the most damning thing about this is, we KNOW there were better options than supporting Garon. Birthright!Kamui shows him siding with his principles and taking the harder path (fighting Nohr). Revelation!Kamui is even better in this regard taking a completely new path to create the world he wanted, and he started with just 3 people on his side. Conquest!Kamui lacks the will to make a real change in order to force the plot.

I won't tell people to like Birthright more than Conquest, but I will say "at least they tried something different" is the faintest of praise. I won't give them credit for trying when they failed so spectacularly in every way.

I feel the way to fix Conquest is both simple and requires a massive change. Make the conquest have a sympathetic motive. This is easy because the lack of resources in Nohr is a canon element. If the reason for conquering Hoshido changes from 'because I was told to' to 'because it's necessary for Nohr's survival', you can have your morally complex conquest without everyone being an idiot.

Edited March 27, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Natsu_T]

Completely agreed NekoKnight. I don't like CQ over BR just because it tried new things. It failed in literally every single way possible to me.

[saisymbolic]

Just for the record, I'm not saying that because Conquest tried new things, that somehow absolves it from any failures that it made. That it tried to deviate from its own formula is a reason I prefer it but I still acknowledge the huge story and character flaws that it has.

Personally, I can't finish Birthright because of pacing. It felt as if several chapters were padded fillers. I feel like Birthright's story could have been finished in half the time as Conquest's. Now, this could be because I spent a long while level grinding all the characters but I felt the story was a bit slower than Conquest. I have a short attention span; if a game or book or whatever can't hold my attention, I'm going to abandon it, as cruel as that sounds. I'm most likely going to go back and do a no-grind run and see if that adjusts my view of Birthright's story but I honestly doubt it.

For all the mistakes Conquest made, I still found it more entertaining than Birthright. I still feel that Conquest and Birthright overall suffered because IS was too busy attempting to find ways in the story to lead up to Revelation. They should have focused on each individual story as its own entity then perhaps worried about the third route. Had they done that, in my opinion, Fates would have been a stronger story (and there would be no Revelations).

Eh, but it all boils down to opinion.

Now, I'm eagerly waiting for Leif to finish up Revelation.

Edited March 27, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[spd12]

If I could chime in, this may be a misconception on my part... but one character did do something that came off as interesting to me in Conquest. Something that no other character appears to bring up after the fact, so maybe it's a mistake, but... (as always, tagged below)

[spoiler=Conquest]Hans at one point mentions that Corrin gleefully participated in the slaughter of Cheve rebels - we of course know this not to be true, Corrin tried to stop him from doing so.

Why would he do that? If it's just to get under his skin, that would be silly and juvenile (and might have been the original intent of the writers). Given the way Nohr and especially Garon operates, though, it kind of came off to me like he was covering for Corrin. If he actually was, that would've been interesting to see a bit more of a spotlight on down the line.

If they had anything interesting to say in Conquest c.26 if Corrin fought him, I didn't get to see... on grounds of Mozu being a monster on her magical murder bird (which is also a monster).

On the whole, though, thanks for the write-up you did on Conquest! I've yet to play the others.

[eclipse]

If I could chime in, this may be a misconception on my part... but one character did do something that came off as interesting to me in Conquest. Something that no other character appears to bring up after the fact, so maybe it's a mistake, but... (as always, tagged below)

[spoiler=Conquest]Hans at one point mentions that Corrin gleefully participated in the slaughter of Cheve rebels - we of course know this not to be true, Corrin tried to stop him from doing so.

Why would he do that? If it's just to get under his skin, that would be silly and juvenile (and might have been the original intent of the writers). Given the way Nohr and especially Garon operates, though, it kind of came off to me like he was covering for Corrin. If he actually was, that would've been interesting to see a bit more of a spotlight on down the line.

If they had anything interesting to say in Conquest c.26 if Corrin fought him, I didn't get to see... on grounds of Mozu being a monster on her magical murder bird (which is also a monster).

On the whole, though, thanks for the write-up you did on Conquest! I've yet to play the others.

That's brilliant.

I don't remember if Hans was supposed to dispose of Corrin way back in Chapter 3. If he wasn't, then maybe he felt a bit guilty when Corrin fell off the edge, and that was his way of making it up.

[spd12]

Actually...

[spoiler=Pre-Split Chapters, then Conquest spoilers]Yes, his orders at the time were, in fact, to kill Corrin and Gunther by order of King Garon himself after sparking off the war - he says so outright. (The fact he does this kind of does set the table of 'Hoshido good guys, Nohr bad guys' a little too handily, I think...)

I don't recall exact details, but he appeared to largely try to stay 'professional' about it all in the wake of Corrin's return. When Corrin says 'no, stop' to the massacre he does in front of you later on in chapter 13, he uses his 'nervous' portrait as if to say 'uh, yeah, I can't, it's the king's orders.'

This is why it's so very interesting to me that he claims that Corrin relished in murdering the Cheve rebels in front of King Garon - it's inconsistent with much of his previous characterization. If he's all about saving face in fulfilling orders as to have what he really seeks out of doing so, that seemed almost a professional courtesy on his part rather than any sort of overt apology for previous behavior. He's a hired thug, he knows it, he relishes in it - but I think if Corrin looked bad it'd reflect back onto him too since they were part of the same operation there.

It still really could be just him saying it to annoy Corrin by the writers' intent (as he'd be in a position where he couldn't verbally nor physically retaliate for it), but that's just not how it came off to me. I'd like to think it was a grasp at character depth that doesn't get expanded upon.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Unmarked spoilas in this post. Beware.

And now for someone that's not Xander.

[spoiler=Have an Iago instead, a la Birthright]IMO Iago should've been the main villain, with Garon being a weak-willed king who was under his thumb. Build up a bit of a backstory about how Iago wants nothing between him and his power, but would rather work in the shadows, as opposed to take the throne outright. When Corrin is brought back to Hoshido, he's considered Enemy Numero Uno, since he knows more about the inner workings of Nohr/has connections to the royal family. Instead of having Takumi just possessed as a spy, have Takumi put in a position where he's found holding a nocked bow at Corrin's head, and it's only Takumi's willpower that's keeping the arrow from being loosed. Instead of a fever, have the break-in at Macarath (or however it's spelled) be some sort of herb that either breaks the spell or kills Takumi, and have the player choose whether or not they try to save him (with the "less than A support" ending with Takumi's death or something). There's so many things that could be done with a sorcerer who wants to rule from the shadows, yet it was unrealized. . .

Someone talk me out of rewriting all three paths. Please.

i agree with this. Garon can kinda exist as he is in the canon, but so many other characters need to be tweaked. Gooran being a puppet to Iago was what i thought the narrative was aiming for, but alas. It should have been that way tbh. Takumi would have been really brilliant had he NOT been possessed, and simply was that fucking mad at Corrin for betraying Hoshido. Also, a lot of characters simply need to react more like...real people for this narrative to work.

Holy replies! I can't keep up! :o

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I could write a 90 page paper on everything wrong with Awakening.

It's Shadow Dragon with time travel. TIME TRAVEL. Not to rain on your parade, but I don't share your fondness of Awakening. I would play Birthright 500 times over rather than slog through Awakening.

No. Joke. Fates has problems, but ill take this plot(s) over Awakening's any day of the week, holy shit. Fates doesnt have anything remotely as offensive as Emmeryn. *gags* Even That One Pointless Reveal in Revelation isnt as bad as Emmeryn.

OP, i really dug your analysis. I had more fun with Birthright's narrative, but i find your assessments really accurate.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Loki Laufeyson

[NekoKnight]

If I could chime in, this may be a misconception on my part... but one character did do something that came off as interesting to me in Conquest. Something that no other character appears to bring up after the fact, so maybe it's a mistake, but... (as always, tagged below)

[spoiler=Conquest]Hans at one point mentions that Corrin gleefully participated in the slaughter of Cheve rebels - we of course know this not to be true, Corrin tried to stop him from doing so.

Why would he do that? If it's just to get under his skin, that would be silly and juvenile (and might have been the original intent of the writers). Given the way Nohr and especially Garon operates, though, it kind of came off to me like he was covering for Corrin. If he actually was, that would've been interesting to see a bit more of a spotlight on down the line.

If they had anything interesting to say in Conquest c.26 if Corrin fought him, I didn't get to see... on grounds of Mozu being a monster on her magical murder bird (which is also a monster).

On the whole, though, thanks for the write-up you did on Conquest! I've yet to play the others.

Hm, I think it unlikely. This is a guy who gleefully takes to murder, including when YOU and your mentor were the targets. If he's somewhat more cordial after Chevalier it's because 1. he tried to murder you before but now he's your ally, AWKWARD, and 2. he's a juvenile dick who enjoys mocking you.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Okay, I just stayed up all night playing New Mystery (sleep is for the weak!) and I have to say that I honestly think that Corrin is the best Avatar we've gotten thus far, now put away your pitchforks and torches and let me explain.

[spoiler=Mark]

Mark felt completely superfluous to the story, almost to the point that I forgot they existed. While Kris and Corrin feel like a case of too much player focus, Mark was a case of too little player focus. The lack of story focus, personality and dialogue had me wishing that the role could've been filled by a 'proper' unit, with an actual personality and importance to the plot. However, I like the minimalist approach and the Tactician's Star mechanic, so I think it works well as a starting point.

[spoiler=Kris]

Kris can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned and I'm gonna tell you why. Let's start with the opening text:

"There is not a soul who does not know of Marth, Hero King and saviour. But there are few who know that person. Marth fought valiantly in battle with many renowned heroes by his side...as well as that person. That person was Marth's confidant and friend. A shadow who aided Marth's victories. History books hold no record of this hero of shadow. The other protagonist of the War of Heroes. Their name was-"

Already, this is reading like an intro for the worst kind of OC/Self-Insert fanfiction, on par with the likes of a third Winchester sibling or an American exchange student at Hogwarts (or, God-forbid, Harry Potter's twin sibling). Hey guys, remember the Hero of Shadow? Well they were Marth's friend and advisor, second in importance only to Marth himself!

But there is more to just bad fanfiction than having an original character who upstages the established characters, it also derails the existing characters. Does New Mystery do that? Well here's what Elice has to say about Marth in Prologue 4:

"The Hero King you say? It does seem that our people have grown fond of calling him that. But the truth of the matter is that Marth...Marth is just a weak, vulnerable child."

Now, I haven't played an Akaneia game other than this one in quite some time, so feel free to correct me if I get anything wrong, but I'm pretty sure that line shits all over Marth's characterisation in Shadow Dragon where if I recall correctly, he was wise beyond his years and while idealistic, understood that sacrifices were sometimes necessary. Not to mention that the line makes Elice look like an arsehole.

Anyway, so Prologue 7 ends with Kris finishing training and becoming a knight and Prologue 8 ends with them becoming Marth's Royal Guards. That seems pretty bullshit to me, since it seems like their should be many people who are far more qualified to do the job, but what really shits me is this Marth line from Chapter 1

"Kris, we'll be arriving shortly. This is your first real battle, is it not?"

Okay, so not only are we taking someone who only just finished basic training and making them the Royal Guard for the most important person in the entire Kingdom, but that same person also hasn't even been in a real fight yet? That is criminally negligent. It should be illegal to do something that stupid. Still, this is where the real fun begins as Kris soon begins to hog up the screen-time, steal moments from other characters and the dick-riding has hit full speed. Remember when Jagen challenges Lang to a duel? Well Kris does it first, which takes away a lot of the impact of the moment for Jagen, and let's not forget this monstrosity:

Jagen: Please hurry sire. The enemy is closing in on us.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them behind.

Kris: Worry not, sire. I will remain here. I will regroup with everyone later.

Marth: Kris! But-

Jagen: Sire, you of all people know that Kris is more than capable. As long as Kris is there, everyone will escape safely and reunite with you at once. Now sire, to the boat!

Here's how that conversation went in the original

Jagen: Your highness, please hurry. The pursuers have already arrived.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them!

Jagen: Don't worry, they will all escape safely. We will all meet up at Khadein. Well your Highness, please get on-board the ship.

The only thing they added to this scene was Kris' dick-sucking. No meaningful dialogue or anything, just 'since Kris is here, everything's going to be alright' nonsense. Why was this scene necessary? If they wanted Kris to be in the scene, they could've just had him support Jagen, but instead we get Kris being so badass that they don't have to worry about the enemy. There's also the scene where Kris comes up with the idea to take the Adria Pass, which was originally Marth's idea.

But that isn't the worst of it, this is what Marth has to say about his relationship with Kris in the epilogue:

"Kris...you're...why, I wonder? Ever since we met, I felt a special connection with you. Fate sent you to me... I can't help but think that. Thank you Kris. Please stay with me. Kris, you're my other half, my true friend..."

Everything about that sentence is so wrong it makes me want to gouge my eyes out. I'm surprised the Devs had enough restraint to not give female Kris' the option to become his queen instead of Caeda. Not to mention that the reason our 'Hero of Shadow' was forgotten by history was because they were oh so humble and gave the credit for all of their actions to Marth. Oh and let's not forget the supports/conversations, in which every single one I had with a female character involved them wanting to ride his dick in the literal sense rather than a metaphorical one, or the fact that they were able to see Sirius without their mask on (something no-one else to my knowledge gets), or the fact that their personality is so bland that Mark, a character that has no supports/base conversations or spoken dialogue manages to be more interesting then them. The gameplay was very enjoyable, so that was nice. The story however, reads like a Fire Emblem Self-Insert fanfiction that somehow got made into an actual game.

[spoiler=Robin]

During my first few playthroughs of Awakening, I really liked Robin. I still do to be honest and I find their involvement in the plot to be the ideal level of importance for Avatar characters (being important, but not the most important). However, I find that the game's story cheats to make them look good in some cases. The Valm Arc is particularly guilty of this, the first case being Flames on the Blue, in which Robin's strategy is unbelievably stupid, but inexplicably works despite the fact that it requires a) the Valm ships to do nothing to try and avoid the flaming ships b) the Valm ships to be so densely packed that the flaming ships are able to sink all of them despite the fact that they are presumably using less ships to do so and c) that regardless of the Valmese numbers and fleet formation, that all of them wind up getting sunk.

There's also Sibling Blades, in which the Ylissean/Feroxian forces are cornered stuck between Yen'fay, Walhart and the traitor Dynasties. But wait! They just so happen to be near a volcano that just so happens to be so feared in Valm that people don't want to go near it and just so happens to be hospitable enough that they can fight inside of it! Maybe it's just me, but Robin's in-story strategies seem to rely on contrivances and the enemy holding the idiot ball more than him actually coming up with effective strategies himself. And if it's not that, it's outright cheating. Like in Invisible Ties, where Basilio is laying out how Robin managed to beat destiny. Consider these lines:

"I've had your merry little band watched since Carrion Isle. Your every move! So I know Robin hasn't touched the stones- he hasn't been near them!"

"Robin had your destiny beat days ago when he came up with this plan."

According to Basilio (unless I'm misinterpreting the line), Robin came up with the plan days ago. Which means in a matter of days, Robinw ould've had to have made contact with Basilio without the spies knowing, organise for Basilio to have swapped the gems with fake ones without anyone noticing. Since Lucina expresses shock at Basilio being alive, it seems reasonable to assume that only Chrom, Robin, Basilio and Flavia were in on the plan. So Chrom and Flavia would've had to find out that Basilio wasn't dead without the spies noticing as well, not to mention that depending on how much time passes between the end of the Valm Arc and the start of the Grima Arc, Basilio could've been 'dead' for months, so the plan also relies on Basilio somehow not being noticed by anyone or somehow knowing not to make his survival publicly known despite the fact that Robin only came up with the plan 'days ago' or that both of the continents on the map are about as large as the UK so that the Shepards could travel from Valm to Ylisse in a matter of days. Oh, and if Basilio was able to swap the gems without anyone noticing, surely the Grimleal would've been able to do the same since if they're watching everyone's moves, then they'd know if Chrom had left the Fire Emblem alone. Maybe someone could explain how it could've happened for me, but right now this is one of the biggest, hairiest and sweatiest asspulls I've ever seen in a work of fiction. There's also Robin being praised by every character with screentime at least once in response to one of their 'brilliant' strategies and the fact that they only get the job as Tactician because Chrom decides to inhale the idiot ball and make someone he just met passed out in a field with no memories his tactician and chief adviser, an action that would've gotten someone like Sigurd betrayed and possibly killed.

EDIT: Finished, didn't have long to go. Anyway:

[spoiler=Corrin]

I personally feel that Corrin is a good, possibly even a great character by on their own. They aren't without their problems for sure, but most of the major complaints have more to do with other characters than Corrin. For starters, I feel like they are the Avatar best integrated into their continuity. Corrin's naivete is justified by their sheltered upbringing, which is a similar justification for Marth's original characterisation and a better excuse than Kris (who doesn't really have one) and Robin (who lost their memory because of time travel shenanigans) and the basis of the story is a great way of making the Avatar feel important without centering the entire conflict around them (Prologue-to-Chapter 6 is when I feel Fates story is at it's strongest). However, the game goes out of it's way to coddle Corrin, preventing them from growing despite having several moments that could've led to growth. One such moment stands out in Revelation, after Anthony has been defeated and Corrin is apologising for being so naive. The siblings, who had been expressing their doubts about Anthony the entire time he was with the party, immediately assure him that Anthony was to blame and that Corrin shouldn't learn from what happened rather than chewing him out and using this as an example of why Corrin should think before they act. Several times throughout the game, I get the feeling that Corrin is genuinely trying to grow as a character and learn from their mistakes.

There's also the fact that Fates will deliberately set things up so that Corrin is almost railroaded into making unfavourable decisions whereas Awakening felt like it would make it easier for Robin to succeed. Xander (and to a lesser extent Camilla) are blindly obedient to Garon and the others won't openly act against him, making an full-on rebellion unwise, Corrin acknowledges the incestuous side of their relationships with the Hoshidan siblings only for them to reveal that they aren't through a means that Corrin has no control over, Azura cannot give them the full details of the setting because of a lame plot device and Corrin is similarly hamstrung on Revelation. Corrin also lacks agency on the Nohr route, being forced to go along with Hans and Iago's cartoonish villainy less he be executed by Garon and lets not forget Lilith's pointless sacrifices for the sake of a cheap tear-jerker. The game's story seems set-up for Corrin to fail unless they follow the railroads layed out by the Devs while also coddling them and portraying them as a shining paragon, preventing them from having any meaningful character development, even in moments when they acknowledge the very flaws the game tries to avoid punishing or acknowledging.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Phillius

[RJWalker]

It's like you read my reddit post about Kris. People over there liked it so much, someone links it everytime Kris is mentioned. We both made the same points. I told you Kris was awful. Glad to see you agree.

[Taka-kun]

[spoiler=Robin]

The Valm Arc is particularly guilty of this, the first case being Flames on the Blue, in which Robin's strategy is unbelievably stupid, but inexplicably works despite the fact that it requires a) the Valm ships to do nothing to try and avoid the flaming ships b) the Valm ships to be so densely packed that the flaming ships are able to sink all of them despite the fact that they are presumably using less ships to do so and c) that regardless of the Valmese numbers and fleet formation, that all of them wind up getting sunk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Red_Cliffs

That said, it could have been executed much much better than just being hand-waved as "working", but the thought is not wrong.

[Jedi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Red_Cliffs

That said, it could have been executed much much better than just being hand-waved as "working", but the thought is not wrong.

Red Cliffs or Chi Bi used chains and fake defection ontop of that fire, but hey I made that same comparison a few years ago myself haha

Edited March 28, 2016 by Jedi

[Time the Crestfallen]

It's like you read my reddit post about Kris. People over there liked it so much, someone links it everytime Kris is mentioned. We both made the same points. I told you Kris was awful. Glad to see you agree.

I might've read the post. After I was done picking apart the main story, I went onto the internet to see if there was something I missed. If it was you, then you clued me on on the massive problems with his supports, which made me start a new game to see them for myself. So thanks for that you prick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Red_Cliffs

That said, it could have been executed much much better than just being hand-waved as "working", but the thought is not wrong.

Well colour me surprised. Nevertheless, Robin came up with this strategy on the spot, somehow managed to have it prepared and the soldiers co-ordinated in what I assume was a matter of hours and attempted it at open sea. Not to mention the fact that the Valm soldiers were said to match them ship for ship, so they somehow managed to sink all the Valm ships using a half of theirs, maybe less, at an open sea where they would've had plenty of room to break formation. Going down to analysis also reveals that Cao Cao's forces were also suffering from a host of other disadvantages like inexperience in naval warfare, sea-sickness and tropical diseases, exhaustion and a lack of rest, all factors that I'm assuming don't apply to the Valm soldiers. There's also the fact that the fire ships were used in a river, not an ocean, so there would've been less room to maneuver and avoid the ships. While I'll admit I was wrong about the strategy being idiotic, the execution still leaves a lot to be desired and exists as a testament to Robin's strategies only working because their enemies are all idiots.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Phillius

[Hoshidoooont]

I never played Kris's game, does it really read like that? Some fanfiction.net OC story? Huh.

That's like having a fully fleshed out multi-hour DLC retelling the three variations of Fates' from Azura's or Silas's point of view, but retroactively include fantastical, impossible events to make the characters far more badass than they were in the main storyline. Then again, I would like to see what life has been like for a walking plot device/spoiler index (Azura).

Edited March 28, 2016 by Hoshidoooont

[Time the Crestfallen]

I never played Kris's game, does it really read like that? Some fanfiction.net OC story? Huh.

That's like having a fully fleshed out multi-hour DLC retelling the three variations of Fates' from Azura's or Silas's point of view, but retroactively include fantastical, impossible events to make the characters far more badass than they were in the main storyline. Then again, I would like to see what life has been like for a walking plot device/spoiler index (Azura).

It really does. As for your analogy, it'd be more like remaking Fates but with a new avatar that follows Corrin, becomes their best friend and closest adviser (as opposed to the Azura/Silas/The siblings) and is also the one who convinces the siblings and other characters to join Corrin on Revelation, but also lets Corrin take the credit for doing everything because the world needs to unite behind him/her or some bullshit like that and the entire game ends with Corrin telling the new Avatar how amazing and special they are.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Phillius

[spd12]

Hearing about the Kris stuff, it makes me wonder what the intended age demographic was for the game in question over in Japan - the A CERO rating makes me think that maybe it was intended specifically for younger players that weren't around for the Famicom days. That sort of 'yay, you, you are awesome' thing is probably meant to appeal to the very young.

Thinking about it, it may well be that the intended audience for more modern Fire Emblem games skewed younger until recently for If/Fates (which got a C CERO rating, almost certainly due to Skinship). There does feel like a level of discomfort in Conquest's writing like they wanted to go further with the idea, they wanted to really delve deeper into the darkness... but could really only skim the surface.

Their ideas of ambiguous and morally gray may not completely mesh with ours, culturally speaking, within the scope of the writing.

Edited March 28, 2016 by spd12

[Hoshidoooont]

It really does. As for your analogy, it'd be more like remaking Fates but with a new avatar that follows Corrin, becomes their best friend and closest adviser (as opposed to the Azura/Silas/The siblings) and is also the one who convinces the siblings and other characters to join Corrin on Revelation, but also lets Corrin take the credit for doing everything because the world needs to unite behind him/her or some bullshit like that and the entire game ends with Corrin telling the new Avatar how amazing and special they are.

Really? That's disappointing. I just read Kris's bio, it really does come across as a bad fanfiction.net bio. Like, "My Immortal" tier.

I can imagine it now, "Corrin's secret retainer, Kirito McColdsteel, is assigned a secret mission by his lord to help the war effort and bring allies to Corrin's side. Play a fantastic saga as you learn of the WHOLE story of Fates, as Kirito McColdsteel: Saves Corrin when he passes out on his way to the Ice Tribe, fights 10,000 Vallites alongside Gunter when he was trapped in Valla before Corrin met him, foiled Iago's plans multiple times between several chapters, and lead the naval assault on Hoshido as the Nohrian royals assaulted the capital by land. Learn of their post game exploits as they singlehandedly restore peace to the continent, and break Azura's curse, rematerializing her into existence again."

It's a shame because I've seen some fan fictions on Fates that, while not great, don't look particularly awful as well. Either stories set 15-20 years in the future with Kana as the main protagonist, or far future stuff set 100-150 years after the events of Fates(with whatever ending they consider canon to substantially affect their setting). But in both cases the authors attempt to distance themselves from the main story lines and often resort to using several OCs for their plots, unless it makes 100% sense to namedrop them.

[Natsu_T]

I might've read the post. After I was done picking apart the main story, I went onto the internet to see if there was something I missed. If it was you, then you clued me on on the massive problems with his supports, which made me start a new game to see them for myself. So thanks for that you prick.

Well colour me surprised. Nevertheless, Robin came up with this strategy on the spot, somehow managed to have it prepared and the soldiers co-ordinated in what I assume was a matter of hours and attempted it at open sea. Not to mention the fact that the Valm soldiers were said to match them ship for ship, so they somehow managed to sink all the Valm ships using a half of theirs, maybe less, at an open sea where they would've had plenty of room to break formation. Going down to analysis also reveals that Cao Cao's forces were also suffering from a host of other disadvantages like inexperience in naval warfare, sea-sickness and tropical diseases, exhaustion and a lack of rest, all factors that I'm assuming don't apply to the Valm soldiers. There's also the fact that the fire ships were used in a river, not an ocean, so there would've been less room to maneuver and avoid the ships. While I'll admit I was wrong about the strategy being idiotic, the execution still leaves a lot to be desired and exists as a testament to Robin's strategies only working because their enemies are all idiots.

I actually really love Robin's strategy here and its execution. It's honestly one of my favorite moments about Awakening. I don't see how it's viable for the Valmese ships to turn around or dodge the already full-speed fire ships. Furthermore, they *didn't know* that the ships were going to combust. My assumption was always that the Valmese ships hunkered together because they were expecting to be boarded. By placing themselves closely, they could borrow reinforcements from the other vessels. The fire was not visible until Robin's fleet collided. But even if they were fireballs sailing over the horizon, I don't believe ships have the acceleration to turn around and outrun such a threat.

And the absolute best part of all this is specifically that Robin comes up with it on the spot. I just LOVE the tactician genius trope seen in characters like Conan from Case Closed, Sora from NGNL, etc. It's probably to the point where it can't be done wrong because I have such an immense soft spot for the characterization.

[Lanko]

I actually like and find the Valm ocean on fire scene hilarious, specially if you are a Knight or something. Frederick and other fully armored people floating in the water.

[eclipse]

[spoiler=Kris]

Kris can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned and I'm gonna tell you why. Let's start with the opening text:

"There is not a soul who does not know of Marth, Hero King and saviour. But there are few who know that person. Marth fought valiantly in battle with many renowned heroes by his side...as well as that person. That person was Marth's confidant and friend. A shadow who aided Marth's victories. History books hold no record of this hero of shadow. The other protagonist of the War of Heroes. Their name was-"

Already, this is reading like an intro for the worst kind of OC/Self-Insert fanfiction, on par with the likes of a third Winchester sibling or an American exchange student at Hogwarts (or, God-forbid, Harry Potter's twin sibling). Hey guys, remember the Hero of Shadow? Well they were Marth's friend and advisor, second in importance only to Marth himself!

But there is more to just bad fanfiction than having an original character who upstages the established characters, it also derails the existing characters. Does New Mystery do that? Well here's what Elice has to say about Marth in Prologue 4:

"The Hero King you say? It does seem that our people have grown fond of calling him that. But the truth of the matter is that Marth...Marth is just a weak, vulnerable child."

Now, I haven't played an Akaneia game other than this one in quite some time, so feel free to correct me if I get anything wrong, but I'm pretty sure that line shits all over Marth's characterisation in Shadow Dragon where if I recall correctly, he was wise beyond his years and while idealistic, understood that sacrifices were sometimes necessary. Not to mention that the line makes Elice look like an arsehole.

Anyway, so Prologue 7 ends with Kris finishing training and becoming a knight and Prologue 8 ends with them becoming Marth's Royal Guards. That seems pretty bullshit to me, since it seems like their should be many people who are far more qualified to do the job, but what really shits me is this Marth line from Chapter 1

"Kris, we'll be arriving shortly. This is your first real battle, is it not?"

Okay, so not only are we taking someone who only just finished basic training and making them the Royal Guard for the most important person in the entire Kingdom, but that same person also hasn't even been in a real fight yet? That is criminally negligent. It should be illegal to do something that stupid. Still, this is where the real fun begins as Kris soon begins to hog up the screen-time, steal moments from other characters and the dick-riding has hit full speed. Remember when Jagen challenges Lang to a duel? Well Kris does it first, which takes away a lot of the impact of the moment for Jagen, and let's not forget this monstrosity:

Jagen: Please hurry sire. The enemy is closing in on us.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them behind.

Kris: Worry not, sire. I will remain here. I will regroup with everyone later.

Marth: Kris! But-

Jagen: Sire, you of all people know that Kris is more than capable. As long as Kris is there, everyone will escape safely and reunite with you at once. Now sire, to the boat!

Here's how that conversation went in the original

Jagen: Your highness, please hurry. The pursuers have already arrived.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them!

Jagen: Don't worry, they will all escape safely. We will all meet up at Khadein. Well your Highness, please get on-board the ship.

The only thing they added to this scene was Kris' dick-sucking. No meaningful dialogue or anything, just 'since Kris is here, everything's going to be alright' nonsense. Why was this scene necessary? If they wanted Kris to be in the scene, they could've just had him support Jagen, but instead we get Kris being so badass that they don't have to worry about the enemy. There's also the scene where Kris comes up with the idea to take the Adria Pass, which was originally Marth's idea.

But that isn't the worst of it, this is what Marth has to say about his relationship with Kris in the epilogue:

"Kris...you're...why, I wonder? Ever since we met, I felt a special connection with you. Fate sent you to me... I can't help but think that. Thank you Kris. Please stay with me. Kris, you're my other half, my true friend..."

Everything about that sentence is so wrong it makes me want to gouge my eyes out. I'm surprised the Devs had enough restraint to not give female Kris' the option to become his queen instead of Caeda. Not to mention that the reason our 'Hero of Shadow' was forgotten by history was because they were oh so humble and gave the credit for all of their actions to Marth. Oh and let's not forget the supports/conversations, in which every single one I had with a female character involved them wanting to ride his dick in the literal sense rather than a metaphorical one, or the fact that they were able to see Sirius without their mask on (something no-one else to my knowledge gets), or the fact that their personality is so bland that Mark, a character that has no supports/base conversations or spoken dialogue manages to be more interesting then them. The gameplay was very enjoyable, so that was nice. The story however, reads like a Fire Emblem Self-Insert fanfiction that somehow got made into an actual game.

Now aren't you glad you did that?

IMO Kris was made like that with the intention of supporting everyone, because Marth's army came from all over the place, including factions that weren't supposed to ally with each other (Sheema's from Gra, Yumina and Yubello are from Grust, Sirius is from the-cast-doesn't-know-where, the Wolfguard is from Archanea, etc.). If Kris was the random nobody he/she was supposed to be, he/she would be seen as a rank-and-file Altean soldier, and why the hell should the princess of Gra want to talk to some nobody? By elevating Kris to that position, it gives the other characters an excuse to talk to him/her, and then we get all of those yummy supports.

Even though there's a lot of personality and backstory in those supports, I'm miffed that Abel/Cain didn't have one. They're one of the original archetypes!

It doesn't mean that Kris is a well-written/good character for New Mystery (he/she isn't), this is my take on one of the possible reasons why that happened.

It's interesting to see how the player-customized character has progressed as the games went on. It looks like IS is improving with every game, and this gives me hope that if there is an avatar in FE15, he/she will be better than Corrin was.

Edited March 28, 2016 by eclipse

[Taka-kun]

Well colour me surprised. Nevertheless, Robin came up with this strategy on the spot, somehow managed to have it prepared and the soldiers co-ordinated in what I assume was a matter of hours and attempted it at open sea. Not to mention the fact that the Valm soldiers were said to match them ship for ship, so they somehow managed to sink all the Valm ships using a half of theirs, maybe less, at an open sea where they would've had plenty of room to break formation. Going down to analysis also reveals that Cao Cao's forces were also suffering from a host of other disadvantages like inexperience in naval warfare, sea-sickness and tropical diseases, exhaustion and a lack of rest, all factors that I'm assuming don't apply to the Valm soldiers. There's also the fact that the fire ships were used in a river, not an ocean, so there would've been less room to maneuver and avoid the ships. While I'll admit I was wrong about the strategy being idiotic, the execution still leaves a lot to be desired and exists as a testament to Robin's strategies only working because their enemies are all idiots.

You are completely in the right. The only advantage Cao Cao had was numerical advantage, while losing out on everyone else, not to mention he went up against the best admiral of the time, who incidentially, had prepared for the battle since a long time due to the natural geography and the strategic situation. All I am saying, fire attacks are quite viable (there is a whole chapter dedicated to it in Sun Tzu's Art of War) but it would have been far more realistic if Robin had prepared for two years rather than "hmm, yeah this works". I would be willing to accept it if Robin had lulled the Valmese into complacency, read the wind and tide ahead and had a complete grasp of the Valmese fleet's formation. For a game centered around strategy, there is very little in-plot that actually discusses viable strategies, even if there are half-assed attempts. You are not a military genius if your opponent is an idiot. You are a genius if you know your opponent is an idiot and uses the knowledge.

I actually really love Robin's strategy here and its execution. It's honestly one of my favorite moments about Awakening. I don't see how it's viable for the Valmese ships to turn around or dodge the already full-speed fire ships. Furthermore, they *didn't know* that the ships were going to combust. My assumption was always that the Valmese ships hunkered together because they were expecting to be boarded. By placing themselves closely, they could borrow reinforcements from the other vessels. The fire was not visible until Robin's fleet collided. But even if they were fireballs sailing over the horizon, I don't believe ships have the acceleration to turn around and outrun such a threat.

And the absolute best part of all this is specifically that Robin comes up with it on the spot. I just LOVE the tactician genius trope seen in characters like Conan from Case Closed, Sora from NGNL, etc. It's probably to the point where it can't be done wrong because I have such an immense soft spot for the characterization.

One viable explanation is that the Valmese fleet is packed together for ease of communication, due to the huge number of ships and men. Ignatius claimed himself to be a man of the sea but the rest of Valm seems to be horse people, so capable captains might be in shortage. Moreover, hunkering and perhaps stabilizing the ships via chaining reduces sea-sickness. Considering that Valm had yet to establish a beachhead in Plegia/Ferox (maybe that was Dalton's intent), they would need to be able to conduct an invasion as soon as they landed. If Robin had predicted the winds and tides correctly, it would indeed be impossible for the Valmese fleet to make a swift turn.

While I too am fond of ingenuity, Conan works because he unravels mysteries and sometimes lay simple traps to expose the culprit, but that only requires him and a few people. Sora also follows a set of rules, disassemble and analyze them and then take advantage of loopholes and other tricks to turn the tables in his favor (as well as some old-fashioned pleading for your life). An operation on the scale of Robin's plan requires at least months of preparation, since you have to prep the ships, organize the command orders and study the weather. Not to mention to your captains that"well, I am basically going to burn all of your precious ships and deprive you of your livelihood". Well, unless you've got Deus Ex Machina on your side, which completely removes the point of having ingenious strategies.

Now back to reading the Art of War so I can pretend being a master tactician.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Taka-kun