A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

[Abvora]

Okay, I just stayed up all night playing New Mystery (sleep is for the weak!) and I have to say that I honestly think that Corrin is the best Avatar we've gotten thus far, now put away your pitchforks and torches and let me explain.

[spoiler=Mark]

Mark felt completely superfluous to the story, almost to the point that I forgot they existed. While Kris and Corrin feel like a case of too much player focus, Mark was a case of too little player focus. The lack of story focus, personality and dialogue had me wishing that the role could've been filled by a 'proper' unit, with an actual personality and importance to the plot. However, I like the minimalist approach and the Tactician's Star mechanic, so I think it works well as a starting point.

[spoiler=Kris]

Kris can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned and I'm gonna tell you why. Let's start with the opening text:

"There is not a soul who does not know of Marth, Hero King and saviour. But there are few who know that person. Marth fought valiantly in battle with many renowned heroes by his side...as well as that person. That person was Marth's confidant and friend. A shadow who aided Marth's victories. History books hold no record of this hero of shadow. The other protagonist of the War of Heroes. Their name was-"

Already, this is reading like an intro for the worst kind of OC/Self-Insert fanfiction, on par with the likes of a third Winchester sibling or an American exchange student at Hogwarts (or, God-forbid, Harry Potter's twin sibling). Hey guys, remember the Hero of Shadow? Well they were Marth's friend and advisor, second in importance only to Marth himself!

But there is more to just bad fanfiction than having an original character who upstages the established characters, it also derails the existing characters. Does New Mystery do that? Well here's what Elice has to say about Marth in Prologue 4:

"The Hero King you say? It does seem that our people have grown fond of calling him that. But the truth of the matter is that Marth...Marth is just a weak, vulnerable child."

Now, I haven't played an Akaneia game other than this one in quite some time, so feel free to correct me if I get anything wrong, but I'm pretty sure that line shits all over Marth's characterisation in Shadow Dragon where if I recall correctly, he was wise beyond his years and while idealistic, understood that sacrifices were sometimes necessary. Not to mention that the line makes Elice look like an arsehole.

Anyway, so Prologue 7 ends with Kris finishing training and becoming a knight and Prologue 8 ends with them becoming Marth's Royal Guards. That seems pretty bullshit to me, since it seems like their should be many people who are far more qualified to do the job, but what really shits me is this Marth line from Chapter 1

"Kris, we'll be arriving shortly. This is your first real battle, is it not?"

Okay, so not only are we taking someone who only just finished basic training and making them the Royal Guard for the most important person in the entire Kingdom, but that same person also hasn't even been in a real fight yet? That is criminally negligent. It should be illegal to do something that stupid. Still, this is where the real fun begins as Kris soon begins to hog up the screen-time, steal moments from other characters and the dick-riding has hit full speed. Remember when Jagen challenges Lang to a duel? Well Kris does it first, which takes away a lot of the impact of the moment for Jagen, and let's not forget this monstrosity:

Jagen: Please hurry sire. The enemy is closing in on us.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them behind.

Kris: Worry not, sire. I will remain here. I will regroup with everyone later.

Marth: Kris! But-

Jagen: Sire, you of all people know that Kris is more than capable. As long as Kris is there, everyone will escape safely and reunite with you at once. Now sire, to the boat!

Here's how that conversation went in the original

Jagen: Your highness, please hurry. The pursuers have already arrived.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them!

Jagen: Don't worry, they will all escape safely. We will all meet up at Khadein. Well your Highness, please get on-board the ship.

The only thing they added to this scene was Kris' dick-sucking. No meaningful dialogue or anything, just 'since Kris is here, everything's going to be alright' nonsense. Why was this scene necessary? If they wanted Kris to be in the scene, they could've just had him support Jagen, but instead we get Kris being so badass that they don't have to worry about the enemy. There's also the scene where Kris comes up with the idea to take the Adria Pass, which was originally Marth's idea.

But that isn't the worst of it, this is what Marth has to say about his relationship with Kris in the epilogue:

"Kris...you're...why, I wonder? Ever since we met, I felt a special connection with you. Fate sent you to me... I can't help but think that. Thank you Kris. Please stay with me. Kris, you're my other half, my true friend..."

Everything about that sentence is so wrong it makes me want to gouge my eyes out. I'm surprised the Devs had enough restraint to not give female Kris' the option to become his queen instead of Caeda. Not to mention that the reason our 'Hero of Shadow' was forgotten by history was because they were oh so humble and gave the credit for all of their actions to Marth. Oh and let's not forget the supports/conversations, in which every single one I had with a female character involved them wanting to ride his dick in the literal sense rather than a metaphorical one, or the fact that they were able to see Sirius without their mask on (something no-one else to my knowledge gets), or the fact that their personality is so bland that Mark, a character that has no supports/base conversations or spoken dialogue manages to be more interesting then them. The gameplay was very enjoyable, so that was nice. The story however, reads like a Fire Emblem Self-Insert fanfiction that somehow got made into an actual game.

[spoiler=Robin]

During my first few playthroughs of Awakening, I really liked Robin. I still do to be honest and I find their involvement in the plot to be the ideal level of importance for Avatar characters (being important, but not the most important). However, I find that the game's story cheats to make them look good in some cases. The Valm Arc is particularly guilty of this, the first case being Flames on the Blue, in which Robin's strategy is unbelievably stupid, but inexplicably works despite the fact that it requires a) the Valm ships to do nothing to try and avoid the flaming ships b) the Valm ships to be so densely packed that the flaming ships are able to sink all of them despite the fact that they are presumably using less ships to do so and c) that regardless of the Valmese numbers and fleet formation, that all of them wind up getting sunk.

There's also Sibling Blades, in which the Ylissean/Feroxian forces are cornered stuck between Yen'fay, Walhart and the traitor Dynasties. But wait! They just so happen to be near a volcano that just so happens to be so feared in Valm that people don't want to go near it and just so happens to be hospitable enough that they can fight inside of it! Maybe it's just me, but Robin's in-story strategies seem to rely on contrivances and the enemy holding the idiot ball more than him actually coming up with effective strategies himself. And if it's not that, it's outright cheating. Like in Invisible Ties, where Basilio is laying out how Robin managed to beat destiny. Consider these lines:

"I've had your merry little band watched since Carrion Isle. Your every move! So I know Robin hasn't touched the stones- he hasn't been near them!"

"Robin had your destiny beat days ago when he came up with this plan."

According to Basilio (unless I'm misinterpreting the line), Robin came up with the plan days ago. Which means in a matter of days, Robinw ould've had to have made contact with Basilio without the spies knowing, organise for Basilio to have swapped the gems with fake ones without anyone noticing. Since Lucina expresses shock at Basilio being alive, it seems reasonable to assume that only Chrom, Robin, Basilio and Flavia were in on the plan. So Chrom and Flavia would've had to find out that Basilio wasn't dead without the spies noticing as well, not to mention that depending on how much time passes between the end of the Valm Arc and the start of the Grima Arc, Basilio could've been 'dead' for months, so the plan also relies on Basilio somehow not being noticed by anyone or somehow knowing not to make his survival publicly known despite the fact that Robin only came up with the plan 'days ago' or that both of the continents on the map are about as large as the UK so that the Shepards could travel from Valm to Ylisse in a matter of days. Oh, and if Basilio was able to swap the gems without anyone noticing, surely the Grimleal would've been able to do the same since if they're watching everyone's moves, then they'd know if Chrom had left the Fire Emblem alone. Maybe someone could explain how it could've happened for me, but right now this is one of the biggest, hairiest and sweatiest asspulls I've ever seen in a work of fiction. There's also Robin being praised by every character with screentime at least once in response to one of their 'brilliant' strategies and the fact that they only get the job as Tactician because Chrom decides to inhale the idiot ball and make someone he just met passed out in a field with no memories his tactician and chief adviser, an action that would've gotten someone like Sigurd betrayed and possibly killed.

EDIT: Finished, didn't have long to go. Anyway:

[spoiler=Corrin]

I personally feel that Corrin is a good, possibly even a great character by on their own. They aren't without their problems for sure, but most of the major complaints have more to do with other characters than Corrin. For starters, I feel like they are the Avatar best integrated into their continuity. Corrin's naivete is justified by their sheltered upbringing, which is a similar justification for Marth's original characterisation and a better excuse than Kris (who doesn't really have one) and Robin (who lost their memory because of time travel shenanigans) and the basis of the story is a great way of making the Avatar feel important without centering the entire conflict around them (Prologue-to-Chapter 6 is when I feel Fates story is at it's strongest). However, the game goes out of it's way to coddle Corrin, preventing them from growing despite having several moments that could've led to growth. One such moment stands out in Revelation, after Anthony has been defeated and Corrin is apologising for being so naive. The siblings, who had been expressing their doubts about Anthony the entire time he was with the party, immediately assure him that Anthony was to blame and that Corrin shouldn't learn from what happened rather than chewing him out and using this as an example of why Corrin should think before they act. Several times throughout the game, I get the feeling that Corrin is genuinely trying to grow as a character and learn from their mistakes.

There's also the fact that Fates will deliberately set things up so that Corrin is almost railroaded into making unfavourable decisions whereas Awakening felt like it would make it easier for Robin to succeed. Xander (and to a lesser extent Camilla) are blindly obedient to Garon and the others won't openly act against him, making an full-on rebellion unwise, Corrin acknowledges the incestuous side of their relationships with the Hoshidan siblings only for them to reveal that they aren't through a means that Corrin has no control over, Azura cannot give them the full details of the setting because of a lame plot device and Corrin is similarly hamstrung on Revelation. Corrin also lacks agency on the Nohr route, being forced to go along with Hans and Iago's cartoonish villainy less he be executed by Garon and lets not forget Lilith's pointless sacrifices for the sake of a cheap tear-jerker. The game's story seems set-up for Corrin to fail unless they follow the railroads layed out by the Devs while also coddling them and portraying them as a shining paragon, preventing them from having any meaningful character development, even in moments when they acknowledge the very flaws the game tries to avoid punishing or acknowledging.

Can you read minds through the Internet? That pretty much summed up my thoughts on the Avatars perfectly. Kris especially, he is easily one of the biggest Gary Stus I have seen created by an official company.

Fun Fact: you actually can choose not to make a Tactician in FE7. Mark is so inconsequential, you can erase him from the game completely and lose nothing except some very minor dialogue.

[Jedi]

Fun Fact: you actually can choose not to make a Tactician in FE7. Mark is so inconsequential, you can erase him from the game completely and lose nothing except some very minor dialogue.

And this is how an avatar should be imo.

[saisymbolic]

And this is how an avatar should be imo.

I always wanted the Avatar to be the person through how you experience the story. Kind of like that guy from The Great Gatsby. You see the story through the eyes of a nameless soldier that, for all intents and purposes, does have a legitimate reason to be forgotten through the passage of time--because he is an unimportant foot soldier. He doesn't talk, people casually comment that he should speak a bit more but he doesn't in fear of drawing the attention away from the true stars of the story. One would still get a rather biased and, admittedly, a possibly boring side of the story but he would be there. Watching. The lone, unnamed lancer.

Eh. While I like Avatar systems because I like customizing and, yes, even having my own personal character within a story, influencing things, I still don't really like the way they handled Corrinmui, for some reason.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Time the Crestfallen]

I always wanted the Avatar to be the person through how you experience the story. Kind of like that guy from The Great Gatsby. You see the story through the eyes of a nameless soldier that, for all intents and purposes, does have a legitimate reason to be forgotten through the passage of time--because he is an unimportant foot soldier. He doesn't talk, people casually comment that he should speak a bit more but he doesn't in fear of drawing the attention away from the true stars of the story. One would still get a rather biased and, admittedly, a possibly boring side of the story but he would be there. Watching. The lone, unnamed lancer.

Eh. While I like Avatar systems because I like customizing and, yes, even having my own personal character within a story, influencing things, I still don't really like the way they handled Corrinmui, for some reason.

Eh, I think Robin was the most reasonable in terms of importance (at least for the Gangrel and Valm Arcs). They're definitely important, but they're not the big cheese of the story.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Phillius

[Frelia]

Okay, I just stayed up all night playing New Mystery (sleep is for the weak!) and I have to say that I honestly think that Corrin is the best Avatar we've gotten thus far, now put away your pitchforks and torches and let me explain.

[spoiler=Mark]

Mark felt completely superfluous to the story, almost to the point that I forgot they existed. While Kris and Corrin feel like a case of too much player focus, Mark was a case of too little player focus. The lack of story focus, personality and dialogue had me wishing that the role could've been filled by a 'proper' unit, with an actual personality and importance to the plot. However, I like the minimalist approach and the Tactician's Star mechanic, so I think it works well as a starting point.

[spoiler=Kris]

Kris can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned and I'm gonna tell you why. Let's start with the opening text:

"There is not a soul who does not know of Marth, Hero King and saviour. But there are few who know that person. Marth fought valiantly in battle with many renowned heroes by his side...as well as that person. That person was Marth's confidant and friend. A shadow who aided Marth's victories. History books hold no record of this hero of shadow. The other protagonist of the War of Heroes. Their name was-"

Already, this is reading like an intro for the worst kind of OC/Self-Insert fanfiction, on par with the likes of a third Winchester sibling or an American exchange student at Hogwarts (or, God-forbid, Harry Potter's twin sibling). Hey guys, remember the Hero of Shadow? Well they were Marth's friend and advisor, second in importance only to Marth himself!

But there is more to just bad fanfiction than having an original character who upstages the established characters, it also derails the existing characters. Does New Mystery do that? Well here's what Elice has to say about Marth in Prologue 4:

"The Hero King you say? It does seem that our people have grown fond of calling him that. But the truth of the matter is that Marth...Marth is just a weak, vulnerable child."

Now, I haven't played an Akaneia game other than this one in quite some time, so feel free to correct me if I get anything wrong, but I'm pretty sure that line shits all over Marth's characterisation in Shadow Dragon where if I recall correctly, he was wise beyond his years and while idealistic, understood that sacrifices were sometimes necessary. Not to mention that the line makes Elice look like an arsehole.

Anyway, so Prologue 7 ends with Kris finishing training and becoming a knight and Prologue 8 ends with them becoming Marth's Royal Guards. That seems pretty bullshit to me, since it seems like their should be many people who are far more qualified to do the job, but what really shits me is this Marth line from Chapter 1

"Kris, we'll be arriving shortly. This is your first real battle, is it not?"

Okay, so not only are we taking someone who only just finished basic training and making them the Royal Guard for the most important person in the entire Kingdom, but that same person also hasn't even been in a real fight yet? That is criminally negligent. It should be illegal to do something that stupid. Still, this is where the real fun begins as Kris soon begins to hog up the screen-time, steal moments from other characters and the dick-riding has hit full speed. Remember when Jagen challenges Lang to a duel? Well Kris does it first, which takes away a lot of the impact of the moment for Jagen, and let's not forget this monstrosity:

Jagen: Please hurry sire. The enemy is closing in on us.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them behind.

Kris: Worry not, sire. I will remain here. I will regroup with everyone later.

Marth: Kris! But-

Jagen: Sire, you of all people know that Kris is more than capable. As long as Kris is there, everyone will escape safely and reunite with you at once. Now sire, to the boat!

Here's how that conversation went in the original

Jagen: Your highness, please hurry. The pursuers have already arrived.

Marth: But everyone is still fighting. I can't just leave them!

Jagen: Don't worry, they will all escape safely. We will all meet up at Khadein. Well your Highness, please get on-board the ship.

The only thing they added to this scene was Kris' dick-sucking. No meaningful dialogue or anything, just 'since Kris is here, everything's going to be alright' nonsense. Why was this scene necessary? If they wanted Kris to be in the scene, they could've just had him support Jagen, but instead we get Kris being so badass that they don't have to worry about the enemy. There's also the scene where Kris comes up with the idea to take the Adria Pass, which was originally Marth's idea.

But that isn't the worst of it, this is what Marth has to say about his relationship with Kris in the epilogue:

"Kris...you're...why, I wonder? Ever since we met, I felt a special connection with you. Fate sent you to me... I can't help but think that. Thank you Kris. Please stay with me. Kris, you're my other half, my true friend..."

Everything about that sentence is so wrong it makes me want to gouge my eyes out. I'm surprised the Devs had enough restraint to not give female Kris' the option to become his queen instead of Caeda. Not to mention that the reason our 'Hero of Shadow' was forgotten by history was because they were oh so humble and gave the credit for all of their actions to Marth. Oh and let's not forget the supports/conversations, in which every single one I had with a female character involved them wanting to ride his dick in the literal sense rather than a metaphorical one, or the fact that they were able to see Sirius without their mask on (something no-one else to my knowledge gets), or the fact that their personality is so bland that Mark, a character that has no supports/base conversations or spoken dialogue manages to be more interesting then them. The gameplay was very enjoyable, so that was nice. The story however, reads like a Fire Emblem Self-Insert fanfiction that somehow got made into an actual game.

[spoiler=Robin]

During my first few playthroughs of Awakening, I really liked Robin. I still do to be honest and I find their involvement in the plot to be the ideal level of importance for Avatar characters (being important, but not the most important). However, I find that the game's story cheats to make them look good in some cases. The Valm Arc is particularly guilty of this, the first case being Flames on the Blue, in which Robin's strategy is unbelievably stupid, but inexplicably works despite the fact that it requires a) the Valm ships to do nothing to try and avoid the flaming ships b) the Valm ships to be so densely packed that the flaming ships are able to sink all of them despite the fact that they are presumably using less ships to do so and c) that regardless of the Valmese numbers and fleet formation, that all of them wind up getting sunk.

There's also Sibling Blades, in which the Ylissean/Feroxian forces are cornered stuck between Yen'fay, Walhart and the traitor Dynasties. But wait! They just so happen to be near a volcano that just so happens to be so feared in Valm that people don't want to go near it and just so happens to be hospitable enough that they can fight inside of it! Maybe it's just me, but Robin's in-story strategies seem to rely on contrivances and the enemy holding the idiot ball more than him actually coming up with effective strategies himself. And if it's not that, it's outright cheating. Like in Invisible Ties, where Basilio is laying out how Robin managed to beat destiny. Consider these lines:

"I've had your merry little band watched since Carrion Isle. Your every move! So I know Robin hasn't touched the stones- he hasn't been near them!"

"Robin had your destiny beat days ago when he came up with this plan."

According to Basilio (unless I'm misinterpreting the line), Robin came up with the plan days ago. Which means in a matter of days, Robinw ould've had to have made contact with Basilio without the spies knowing, organise for Basilio to have swapped the gems with fake ones without anyone noticing. Since Lucina expresses shock at Basilio being alive, it seems reasonable to assume that only Chrom, Robin, Basilio and Flavia were in on the plan. So Chrom and Flavia would've had to find out that Basilio wasn't dead without the spies noticing as well, not to mention that depending on how much time passes between the end of the Valm Arc and the start of the Grima Arc, Basilio could've been 'dead' for months, so the plan also relies on Basilio somehow not being noticed by anyone or somehow knowing not to make his survival publicly known despite the fact that Robin only came up with the plan 'days ago' or that both of the continents on the map are about as large as the UK so that the Shepards could travel from Valm to Ylisse in a matter of days. Oh, and if Basilio was able to swap the gems without anyone noticing, surely the Grimleal would've been able to do the same since if they're watching everyone's moves, then they'd know if Chrom had left the Fire Emblem alone. Maybe someone could explain how it could've happened for me, but right now this is one of the biggest, hairiest and sweatiest asspulls I've ever seen in a work of fiction. There's also Robin being praised by every character with screentime at least once in response to one of their 'brilliant' strategies and the fact that they only get the job as Tactician because Chrom decides to inhale the idiot ball and make someone he just met passed out in a field with no memories his tactician and chief adviser, an action that would've gotten someone like Sigurd betrayed and possibly killed.

EDIT: Finished, didn't have long to go. Anyway:

[spoiler=Corrin]

I personally feel that Corrin is a good, possibly even a great character by on their own. They aren't without their problems for sure, but most of the major complaints have more to do with other characters than Corrin. For starters, I feel like they are the Avatar best integrated into their continuity. Corrin's naivete is justified by their sheltered upbringing, which is a similar justification for Marth's original characterisation and a better excuse than Kris (who doesn't really have one) and Robin (who lost their memory because of time travel shenanigans) and the basis of the story is a great way of making the Avatar feel important without centering the entire conflict around them (Prologue-to-Chapter 6 is when I feel Fates story is at it's strongest). However, the game goes out of it's way to coddle Corrin, preventing them from growing despite having several moments that could've led to growth. One such moment stands out in Revelation, after Anthony has been defeated and Corrin is apologising for being so naive. The siblings, who had been expressing their doubts about Anthony the entire time he was with the party, immediately assure him that Anthony was to blame and that Corrin shouldn't learn from what happened rather than chewing him out and using this as an example of why Corrin should think before they act. Several times throughout the game, I get the feeling that Corrin is genuinely trying to grow as a character and learn from their mistakes.

There's also the fact that Fates will deliberately set things up so that Corrin is almost railroaded into making unfavourable decisions whereas Awakening felt like it would make it easier for Robin to succeed. Xander (and to a lesser extent Camilla) are blindly obedient to Garon and the others won't openly act against him, making an full-on rebellion unwise, Corrin acknowledges the incestuous side of their relationships with the Hoshidan siblings only for them to reveal that they aren't through a means that Corrin has no control over, Azura cannot give them the full details of the setting because of a lame plot device and Corrin is similarly hamstrung on Revelation. Corrin also lacks agency on the Nohr route, being forced to go along with Hans and Iago's cartoonish villainy less he be executed by Garon and lets not forget Lilith's pointless sacrifices for the sake of a cheap tear-jerker. The game's story seems set-up for Corrin to fail unless they follow the railroads layed out by the Devs while also coddling them and portraying them as a shining paragon, preventing them from having any meaningful character development, even in moments when they acknowledge the very flaws the game tries to avoid punishing or acknowledging.

I heard about Kris being bad, but I didn't know they were THIS bad. I have a lot of issues with Robin and Corrin, but they are most certainly not the worst. Kris managed to be much worse.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Frelia

[Time the Crestfallen]

I heard about Kris being bad, but I didn't know they were THIS bad. I have a lot of issues with Robin and Corrin, but they are most certainly not the worst. Kris managed to be much worse.

Kris was doomed from the start. It's one thing to have player avatar's in a game, but putting one into a pre-existing story is on a different level of bad ideas.

[Hoshidoooont]

I always wanted the Avatar to be the person through how you experience the story. Kind of like that guy from The Great Gatsby. You see the story through the eyes of a nameless soldier that, for all intents and purposes, does have a legitimate reason to be forgotten through the passage of time--because he is an unimportant foot soldier. He doesn't talk, people casually comment that he should speak a bit more but he doesn't in fear of drawing the attention away from the true stars of the story. One would still get a rather biased and, admittedly, a possibly boring side of the story but he would be there. Watching. The lone, unnamed lancer.

Eh. While I like Avatar systems because I like customizing and, yes, even having my own personal character within a story, influencing things, I still don't really like the way they handled Corrinmui, for some reason.

More games could use a Nick Carraway type protagonist-----a relative black slate that, as the story progresses, clearly does have some innate biases and personally outside of what the player chooses to project onto him. And once the main story ends the MC, much like Nick, has no reason to stay in the setting/with the characters because of diverging priorities(in Nick's case he developed a seething hate for Old Money and got fed up with the crookedness of New York, only to live out his days in his hometown, far out West.)

Also, am I the only one who is getting tired of main character A, B, C, "disappearing" after the main story ends? Yeah, people change and move on with their lives in different ways, but your fate isn't clouded in some veil and ambiguity after the story ends. Why are there so many Schrodinger's characters?

[saisymbolic]

Also, am I the only one who is getting tired of main character A, B, C, "disappearing" after the main story ends? Yeah, people change and move on with their lives in different ways, but your fate isn't clouded in some veil and ambiguity after the story ends. Why are there so many Schrodinger's characters?

I wouldn't mind it, either, honestly. It'd be pretty funny if, at the end of the story, you find out the Nameless Soldier is telling a story to their (grand)kid ala The Princess Bride.

It boils down more to the context of the story and how they are handled, in my opinion. If makes sense for the Nameless Soldier to be forgotten, then so be it. If there is room for a short epilogue detailing their life after the war/crisis, I would appreciate that, as well.

[Tsuky]

Ah, another good ol' discussion on the plot. I always love a good analysis post :)

[spoiler=Birthright] I agree with everything you've said about Birthright. I've always felt like Mokushu was a missed opportunity, and having a Hoshidan kill Elise would definitely make the scene (and the fight with Xander) flow in a more logical way. Both events would also help with Hoshido's gray morality; but alas, IS just didn't want to take that risk. Kaze's, Flora's, and Lilith's deaths, in their current form, are also painfully stupid. And, in a strange way, I prefer Conquest!Ryoma over Birthright!Ryoma in various aspects. Aside from the oddity that you pointed out, in Birthright chapter 27, after Garon snatched Azura (which, by itself, was already pretty stupid, because the Corrin and the siblings just kinda stood there as he did it), Ryoma tried to reason with him about Hoshido and Nohr making peace. Um, wat? Anyone with a shred of common sense would realize at this point that Garon is a total maniac. Also, bro, this dude murdered your father in cold blood in front of you, and you are gonna reason with him? Maybe I'm just not as nice of a person as Ryoma is, but I find it hard to believe that such reaction under those circumstances is realistic.

[spoiler=Conquest] As people like Nanima, Thane, and NekoKnight have already pointed out, the story has problems beyond "Garon is a terribly-written character." The main problem is that the game tries to have its cake and eat it too. Honestly, if Corrin had just been like "screw it, I prioritize Nohr's wellbeing over Hoshido's, and we need to get rid of Garon regardless of the cost," I would have fewer problems with it. In essence, I don't have a problem with Corrin making morally questionable decisions, but the game needs to treat those actions as such and not try to justify them. In the end, not only did the Hoshidan siblings all forgive Corrin way too easily, he/she never really takes the time to reflect on what he/she did in Hoshido. For instance, it would've been nice if he/she pondered about whether Hoshido would've had to suffer through the same thing if he/she didn't help Garon with the invasion; after all, we weren't given a lot of context regarding the statuses of the two countries' military forces, so this is a very real possibility. But nah, all that tossed out the window.

In addition, Conquest didn't do a good job of convincing me that invading Hoshido was the only way to take out Garon. There were resistance forces in multiple locations in Nohr, so how about trying to secretly rally them up? Perhaps that wouldn't have worked out, but at least try SOMETHING before, you know, you decide to invade a country?

Also, the stupidity of characters in Conquest go beyond those directly impacted by Garon. Conquest!Kaze, for instance, is why I cannot bring myself to like him as a character. There's zero excuse for doing what he did. And Conquest!Hinoka is just... why u make no sense? In chapter 24, after getting defeated by Corrin, she told him/her that she wanted to come along with convince Ryoma so they can end the war. Uh, what do you want him to do? Throw down his weapons and try to make peace with Garon, who is already at Hoshido's footsteps with his army? Why is she trusting Corrin so readily, with no knowledge of plan "exposing Gooron on the Hoshidan throne"? And what makes her believe that Corrin is able to do anything against substantial against Garon in the first place? Sparing a few people secretly simply doesn't cut it. And Fuga... oh man, give this guy a medal for being the best friend of the year. I get that your territory is neutral or whatever, but that doesn't mean you should just let Nohrian troops waltz across your territory after Corrin bests you in a challenge. I would really like to know how you felt after finding out that your best bro's two sons died because of your decision. Sumeragi, plz come back and kick this guy's a**

All in all, too much nonsense for me to handle.

I'm not as familiar with Revelation, so I'm going to refrain from commenting on it for now.

And for some general problems I have with the set-up/background of the story (let me know if I've missed something here):

1) You have already pointed this one out, but how did the conflict start in the first place? More details plz. Also, very minor nitpick: who are the two dudes in that large painting in the opening cutscene? Thought that was going to be important, but I was wrong. Guess I will just continue with my headcanon that it's young Garon and Sumeragi...

2) The circumstances of Corrin's kidnapping. Was it planned, or did Garon decide on the spot? If it's planned, did Garon tell Sumeragi to bring a child with him beforehand? Lolz, not suspicious at all. Also, why? If he was aware of Corrin's potential and wanted it for himself, shouldn't he be, I dunno, a bit nicer to Corrin? That would seem more intelligent from both a utilitarian and political perspective. If he just wanted Corrin as a "strong" sacrifice, why wait this many years specifically? Corrin should be out and about earlier so he can hone him/herself more quickly.

3) The sisters not getting special weapons, especially Camilla. From a gameplay perspective, this obviously sucks, but it's also strange from a story perspective. Okay, you can tell me that perhaps Nohr and Hoshido only had those four weapons, so they needed to be passed onto people who can use them. Since Hinoka's canon promotion is falcon knight, she technically can't use the Fujin Yumi (although reclassing to Kinshi knight would do the job). Also, since Hoshido is a patriarchal society, as seen from the royalty line of succession, Hinoka would probably get passed up anyway. But for Camilla, there's no excuse. Her canon class can use tomes, and she is in line for the throne before Leo, so why?

4) Corrin leading the army. This is one reason I preferred Awakening's execution of an avatar. You are very important to the story, but you never become THE leader; Chrom is still the leader. Here, Corrin is a sheltered individual who has little experience with the outside world. There's no reason why they should occupy such an important role in the army (other than being the main character) when there are multiple characters who are better for the job. This becomes especially obvious when Xander and Ryoma join you, and there are some instances in which it sounded like they are "working for Corrin," for the lack of a better term, and I dunno, it just rubs me the wrong way.

[eclipse]

3) The sisters not getting special weapons, especially Camilla. From a gameplay perspective, this obviously sucks, but it's also strange from a story perspective. Okay, you can tell me that perhaps Nohr and Hoshido only had those four weapons, so they needed to be passed onto people who can use them. Since Hinoka's canon promotion is falcon knight, she technically can't use the Fujin Yumi (although reclassing to Kinshi knight would do the job). Also, since Hoshido is a patriarchal society, as seen from the royalty line of succession, Hinoka would probably get passed up anyway. But for Camilla, there's no excuse. Her canon class can use tomes, and she is in line for the throne before Leo, so why?

Leo's base class is Dark Mage, which uses tomes. Camilla's is Wyvern Knight, which uses axes. I suspect that Leo's got the stronger magic between the two, hence why he got the tome.

[Tsuky]

Leo's base class is Dark Mage, which uses tomes. Camilla's is Wyvern Knight, which uses axes. I suspect that Leo's got the stronger magic between the two, hence why he got the tome.

I was going by their canon promoted class, but yeah, this would be the only reasonable explanation. Then again, the passing of these sacred weapons is likely not decided by abilities. In other words, even if Xander and Ryoma are completely incompetent, they would probably still get to inherit Siegfriend and Raijinto by virtue of being the eldest.

Anyway, I think I'll just forge some weapons for the sisters and pretend they are special :P

[Lanko]

I would have preferred that nobody got a special weapon at all. Or that they did it like in FE6, FE8 and FE10, where you find some, but can give them to whoever you want.

I think you got the Dreadlords' weapons in Awakening too and could do the same, but they didn't felt as epic as in previous games.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Lanko

[eclipse]

I was going by their canon promoted class, but yeah, this would be the only reasonable explanation. Then again, the passing of these sacred weapons is likely not decided by abilities. In other words, even if Xander and Ryoma are completely incompetent, they would probably still get to inherit Siegfriend and Raijinto by virtue of being the eldest.

Anyway, I think I'll just forge some weapons for the sisters and pretend they are special :P

Those in promoted classes need to spend time in a base class. Thus, I think that Leo studied magic from whenever he could, while Camilla sort-of did it off to the side.

Xander/Ryoma is interesting - did the brothers train with using swords, knowing that they'd inherit their special weapons, or did they already have the aptitude, and inherited the swords because they were the strongest of their respective siblings? There's probably a lore answer somewhere, but I'm not the best at reading support convos.

[Tsuky]

Those in promoted classes need to spend time in a base class. Thus, I think that Leo studied magic from whenever he could, while Camilla sort-of did it off to the side.

Xander/Ryoma is interesting - did the brothers train with using swords, knowing that they'd inherit their special weapons, or did they already have the aptitude, and inherited the swords because they were the strongest of their respective siblings? There's probably a lore answer somewhere, but I'm not the best at reading support convos.

I don't recall any of the support talking about it directly, but I would guess it's the former for Ryoma. You can tell he admires his dad A LOT, and was probably set on becoming a samurai from very early on. Xander's case is a little more confusing: if Siegfried and Brynhildr are passed down within the Nohrian royal family, you'd think that Garon would've at least trained to be able to use one of them, but he technically can't based on his in-game class, so Xander probably didn't train with swords to follow in his father's footsteps.

Hmmm, now that I think about it, maybe Siegfried and Brynhildr were specially forged/crafted for Xander and Leo to complement their talents? This would be contrasted with Raijinto and Fujin Yumi, since the former was Sumeragi's originally and the latter was also stated (not 100% sure) to be passed down within the Hoshidan royal family. Wow, then there's even less of a reason to not just forge one for Camilla...

[BANRYU]

Great read on both synopses. I agree wholeheartedly that Garon is an unholy blight on the face of this overall game e__e I assumed (having not played Revelations yet, mind) while playing Conquest that the reason for GoopyGaron's boldfaced bloodthirst and blatant lack of regard for his OWN country's troops and royalty stemmed from some sort of imminent Grima rapture-type scenario that Corrin only narrowly thwarts in both main versions of the game, which goopygaron doesn't bother trying to have any sort of nobler motive or political accountability for since it soon won't matter. But of course, it's never gone into further detail. ~___~ shitty villain. What a shame.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Actually gameplay wise it makes more sense the sister get no special weapon when the brother does

Xander without Siegfried won't be that good

Bryhindlr actually kinda sucked

Camilla is still the best character in the game by a landslide without any personal weapon

[nordopolica]

Actually gameplay wise it makes more sense the sister get no special weapon when the brother does

Xander without Siegfried won't be that good

Bryhindlr actually kinda sucked

Camilla is still the best character in the game by a landslide without any personal weapon

Yeah I like to think that she doesn't have a Prf weapon because the devs originally had one on her and were like 'gee whizz too OP' so they took it off her to make everything a little more balanced. Seriously though if the only reason was "the brothers are inherently more important in the story and the sisters are only there as waifu bait and player worshippers" I'd be mad so I prefer to former.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Yeah I like to think that she doesn't have a Prf weapon because the devs originally had one on her and were like 'gee whizz too OP' so they took it off her to make everything a little more balanced. Seriously though if the only reason was "the brothers are inherently more important in the story and the sisters are only there as waifu bait and player worshippers" I'd be mad so I prefer to former.

I'm imagining Camilla with Siegfried and all I see is the shredded, bloodied remains of the idea that Conquest is more difficult than Birthright. Seriously, 1-2 Range on a flier, great bases and growths, great availability, fantastic bulk because of Siegfried's bonuses and good offence. She'd easily be the most broken character in the entire game and up their with the likes of Seth, Haar and Sigurd for best units in the entire franchise.

[Avalanche]

Fantastic analysis Leif, I can't wait for Revelation! You know, for as disappointing as the Conquest story was, I really enjoyed the final few Chapters (26-Endgame specifically). Ya know, when the siblings just gave up on trying to follow the obvious villains and took matters into their own hands? That really felt like the "changing the corrupt kingdom from the inside" concept Conquest was advertised as. I just wished something like this could have happend sooner.

[Thane]

Fantastic analysis Leif, I can't wait for Revelation! You know, for as disappointing as the Conquest story was, I really enjoyed the final few Chapters (26-Endgame specifically). Ya know, when the siblings just gave up on trying to follow the obvious villains and took matters into their own hands? That really felt like the "changing the corrupt kingdom from the inside" concept Conquest was advertised as. I just wished something like this could have happend sooner.

I'm not trying to make you change your opinion, but may I ask what you liked about the ending? Personally I found it horribly executed since the siblings had all but been left out of the main plot and missed out on any real buildup, not to mention any possble dilemma that could arise from killing your father is excused because "lol slime monster".

That, and I can't stand how the siblings take an axe to the face and go "gee, dad sure is in a bad mood today! We'd better let him kill us, that'll cheer him up!".

[Leif]

Added a miscellaneous section where I discuss things other than the plot in Fates. This is to tide you guys over till I finish Revelation.

I talked about how gay marriage was handled in Fates in this new section. I believe it could have been done better, but what do you guys think?

REMEMBER: let's have a fair and balanced discussion!

I hope I didn't derail the conversation; I was writing this new section and didn't see the 6+ pages of discussion in my absence!

Edited March 29, 2016 by Leif

[Lanko]

I was talking with a friend that has yet to finish Conquest and now I'm wondering:

Why do we have to put Garon on the Hoshidan throne to reveal him? All these years he was a slime, he accomplished nothing against Hoshido or the world. Why Corrin/Azura are in such a hurry to do that, to the point of initiating a war against their own siblings?

More on this, I'm actually disappointed Azura doesn't have any lines when you fight the siblings or even on that dinner map. She is kidnapped by Hoshidan forces, joins Nohr, they meed again in Izana's place, fight again later and nobody gives a damn.

Back to Garon. My friend said this (he only reached chapter 15 and heard me ranting about the story):

"King Garon IS possessed by an Elder Dragon, and IS unstoppable. Fighting with Hoshido to try to stop him won't work, and if Corrin sided with Hoshido, Garon/Ancient Evil will eventually destroy everyone. However, by fighting FOR King Garon, and defeating Hoshido to gain his trust (no matter the cost), you can manipulate Garon into sitting on the magical self-restoring throne of Hoshido, which is the ONLY way to weaken him, defeat him, and save the world.

I like this as an IDEA. Basically, it's like a brutal undercover mission, but worse. The "hero" has to immerse him/herself in villainy and basically do things he/she finds abhorrent to maintain their cover. Doing this eats away at them, body and soul, and they are secretly racked with guilt which only grows worse the longer they maintain their cover.

Eventually, assuming the plan works, they DO conquer Hoshido (without doing this, Garon never sits on the throne, and the world ends) and then take Garon out, using the trust they've accrued to catch him by surprise. Now you have the ultimate pyrrhic victory - the hero has saved the world, but forever compromised/destroyed their own soul in the process. That's tragic, and interesting.

If Chapter 15 had taken place right at the start of the game (like, right after Garon's sword explodes and kills your mother) and Corrin learns that he has to pretend to serve King Garon, murdering if necessary, and can't tell anyone about the truth about the King or the otherworld invading this one (because of the whole "talk about it and you vanish" problem) ... then I can buy that. That's a valid reason for Corrin to side with Nohr over Hoshido, and even to some of the things he does (like allowing the slaughter in Cheve).

So rather than being a weakling idiot (Oh, my soldiers are slaughtering and torturing innocents in Cheve - I won't stop it, but I'll tell Dad!) the decision to allow the slaughter in Cheve makes sense. It's the same logic the allies used in WW II when they (supposedly) learned Coventry would be bombed by Germany. If they had warned Coventry or stopped the attack, the Germans would known Enigma had been cracked, and thus could lose the entire war. So they had to sacrifice one town to win the war. That's a soul crushing choice, and could totally have worked to justify Cheve had it been Corrin's motivation FROM CHAPTER 5."

Interesting. What if Garon was someone like Gharnef, that required you to get a specific weapon to harm him and until then he was invincible? We never saw any display of power from Garon, only people cowering in fear from him, but nothing for us, the players.

Then unknown to him, after conquering Hoshido and achieving dominance, the throne removes his protection/reveals who is sheltering him. If they didn't he would become a deity/dragon like Corrin and conquer the world.

Ok, still bad, but what was the sense of urgency in the story? Why did I need to put Garon on that chair so quickly? What was at stake if I didn't? Specially considering Corrin is the responsible for the success of the invasion. All those years and all Garon accomplished was killing some guy who walked alone into a war meeting with his baby child behind.

From what we see in the Prologue, the kingdoms weren't at all-out war. Even after Chapter 6, everyone apparently retreated back to their kingdoms as well.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Lanko

[nordopolica]

I'm not trying to make you change your opinion, but may I ask what you liked about the ending? Personally I found it horribly executed since the siblings had all but been left out of the main plot and missed out on any real buildup, not to mention any possble dilemma that could arise from killing your father is excused because "lol slime monster".

That, and I can't stand how the siblings take an axe to the face and go "gee, dad sure is in a bad mood today! We'd better let him kill us, that'll cheer him up!".

My first playthrough, I liked the ending of Conquest too. It wasn't until I allowed it some time to gel in my head that it started to sour. I liked that the siblings were conflicted about their father - I liked that the chapter + endgame were really triumphant and cool, and I liked the epilogue (- crashing into tiddies. Seriously IS? The balloon sound and everything?)

Yes, their indecision was annoying in hindsight, but somehow I just thought of it as good execution while seeing it for the first time. I hate slime dad as much as the next person, but honestly I have no idea why I didn't mind it at the time. Honeymoon glasses?

Now, obviously, I feel differently, but I do think it's probably just the feeling you get when you complete it rather than the disappointment, anger and confusion I feel now after taking the time to reflect on the story.

Some people, also, just aren't as invested in the story as you, I guess? And some people like it, I suppose because they don't try to analyse it, or had no expectation, or just purely take it for what it is (man I wish I could do that.)

I know you think that Fates is probably the worst example of video game writing in history, but I've played much, much worse, and in addition to my overwhelming Fire Emblem bias, I was willing to put aside some of its faults if only for the first playthrough. Again, that has changed.

[Augestein]

Added a miscellaneous section where I discuss things other than the plot in Fates. This is to tide you guys over till I finish Revelation.

I talked about how gay marriage was handled in Fates in this new section. I believe it could have been done better, but what do you guys think?

REMEMBER: let's have a fair and balanced discussion!

I hope I didn't derail the conversation; I was writing this new section and didn't see the 6+ pages of discussion in my absence!

For the gay marriage, I feel that they both should have been children characters, I agree with that. Losing a character is sad, but losing 2 is a bit much for your choice of pairing. I'm not sure if it could have been done better or worse. Until you actually see multiple homosexual characters, I can't actually call it a problem honestly-- which there hasn't been a ton of... However, Lucius and Raven could be considered a homosexual pairing and no one thinks poorly of those two. If you think of Ike x Soren/Ranulf as a gay pairing, we've gotten a decent bit of variety from the characters in the series, so it's not entirely fair to point out Fates' homosexuals in an isolated tunnel there. I'd also say that Rhajat seems to be more of an apology for the lack of Tharja x FemRobin. Plus, Rhajat is considerably less stalkerish and disturbing than Tharja-- which only gains her points in my eyes. It should also be noted that in Awakening, Gregor is considerably more comfortable with saying his "secrets" to male Robin than female Robin-- which disturbs both of them equally.

The gameplay is a noticeable step up from Awakening, and is pretty solid in general. But by all that is good... What happened to the plot? I... Played Revelations and nothing else (and have pretty much avoided Birthright and Conquest spoilers), but... Wow. The plot is hilariously awful. It might actually be worse than Awakening and Radiant Dawn. I will say Revelations villain might have the best set of powers ever. My favorite being "you can't talk about my house unless you're in my house."

Also, why did

Corrin become queen of Valla? I mean, what exactly is there to rule over? Sure the ending says she got some land, but... Why? were the invisible people actually people? Because non of the enemies looked like a normal human.

[Thane]

My first playthrough, I liked the ending of Conquest too. It wasn't until I allowed it some time to gel in my head that it started to sour. I liked that the siblings were conflicted about their father - I liked that the chapter + endgame were really triumphant and cool, and I liked the epilogue (- crashing into tiddies. Seriously IS? The balloon sound and everything?)

Yes, their indecision was annoying in hindsight, but somehow I just thought of it as good execution while seeing it for the first time. I hate slime dad as much as the next person, but honestly I have no idea why I didn't mind it at the time. Honeymoon glasses?

Now, obviously, I feel differently, but I do think it's probably just the feeling you get when you complete it rather than the disappointment, anger and confusion I feel now after taking the time to reflect on the story.

Some people, also, just aren't as invested in the story as you, I guess? And some people like it, I suppose because they don't try to analyse it, or had no expectation, or just purely take it for what it is (man I wish I could do that.)

I know you think that Fates is probably the worst example of video game writing in history, but I've played much, much worse, and in addition to my overwhelming Fire Emblem bias, I was willing to put aside some of its faults if only for the first playthrough. Again, that has changed.

The fact that there are worse games out there doesn't make Fates better; I know that wasn't the point you were trying to make, but there are some people who shrug off any criticism with that mindset.

The thing about the finale with slime daddy is that it has no real buildup for any of the siblings. They hear about this the chapter before and have no real time to react, thus robbing them of what could've been damn good characterization, something Camilla and Elise were in desperate need of. Not only that, but from what the player has seen in the main story, the siblings are just treated like trash by Garon and they're against everything he represents, even going so far as to undermine his authority whenever possible - and yet when they get an axe to the face, they react by saying that they can't kill their own father - not because of some kind of fear, mind you, since that would've made a certain degree of sense (but wouldn't have removed the aforementioned issues), but because some goo pretended to be their father. If there's one thing I didn't expect of Leo, arguably the most consistent and well-developed character in the main story, was to lose his cool, pragmatic outlook when it mattered the most.

To me, Conquest's finale will never represent victory. Not only because of the multitude of missed opportunities, but because you steamrolled a peaceful nation because the main character was too gutless and stupid to find another solution, and the deuteragonist was mildly held back by a plot device so bad it makes the Blood Pact look like Shakespeare, and now you're celebrating the fact that the nation filled with puppy kickers has a new king who willingly took part in the massacre. The ending made me feel disgusted for all the wrong reasons.