Is it me, or are most of the Conquest characters... underwhelming?

[darkestdarkness]

imagine if we had to start with subaki and hana instead of effie in conquest chapter 7. that would be a nightmare on hard or higher.

conquest characters just feel underwhelming at first because it's a much harder route than birthright.

this problem sort of extends to revelation, as most birthright units are available earlier than conquest units, and most conquest units start with pathetic bases.

Edited June 6, 2016 by darkestdarkness

[Shadow Mir]

Only if you're going to put them in a situation where they would die if they get critted too many times, and you don't have to do that depending on the role you assign. It's similar to what I've heard people say about how Quixotic is apparently a bad skill because it makes you more vulnerable to getting hit and hit with skills. As long as you don't put yourself in a situation where too many successful hits will get you killed, all it does is make your own attacks and skills more reliable.

Arthur doesn't have to be an enemy phase tank, conquest has plenty of other units suited to fitting that role. Arthur works best as a player phase destroyer of major threats.

The problem with Quixotic is that it's a double-edged sword, which isn't bad in and of itself, but compared to the enemy, the player gets the short stick (I'm rarely ever getting the full hit boost unless I'm on the wrong end of a Breaker skill, and in that case, I might as well consider using another unit instead). Also, facing crit chances is infinitely inferior to not having to worry about them, given that an enemy crit can easily ruin a plan, or at worst, mean having to reset.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

The problem with Quixotic is that it's a double-edged sword, which isn't bad in and of itself, but compared to the enemy, the player gets the short stick (I'm rarely ever getting the full hit boost unless I'm on the wrong end of a Breaker skill, and in that case, I might as well consider using another unit instead). Also, facing crit chances is infinitely inferior to not having to worry about them, given that an enemy crit can easily ruin a plan, or at worst, mean having to reset.

But why would you care about that unless you regularly leave it up to a roll of the dice whether or not you have to reset? Unless you do that, Quixotic basically only benefits you, makes procstacking builds obscenely viable, and makes it much easier to battle high-avoid enemies.

[Shadow Mir]

But why would you care about that unless you regularly leave it up to a roll of the dice whether or not you have to reset? Unless you do that, Quixotic basically only benefits you, makes procstacking builds obscenely viable, and makes it much easier to battle high-avoid enemies.

Maybe because I don't want to be giving the enemy any more of an advantage than they already have? Besides, I'd rather use other methods of improving reliability, thank you very much.

[Thor Odinson]

Enemies rarely have procs anyway even in Conquest bar a few bosses, and dodgetanking is unreliable unless you're Ryoma (Ryoma should probably not use Quixotic) or going against a specific weapon user with a breaker and WTA (Nina with a bow vs Ninjas, for example). Therefore, if you go in with the mindset of enemies always hit and is pleasantly surprised if they don't, Quixotic's hit on the enemy doesn't matter because you have already planned around the enemy to hit you.

I'm also quite fond of Berserker Rinkah with her spouse being a Chieftain pairup as a Zerktank that can reach Xander tiers of durability. Crits? Who cares, I have 41 defense things hardly scratch me

Gotta know how to stack the right stats, man

Edited June 6, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Qilin]

I think it's justified. Conquest is supposed to be actually difficult. It won't be much of a challenge if your units can easily plow through everything. At the very least you should have to work hard for your characters to reach that level, and it's already too easy to do because of My Castle, so underpowering character bases makes sense, because if I already bought Conquest and they already advertise it as the challenging version, then I shouldn't have to do anything to make it actually challenging. It should be challenging by default.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Qilin

[Soapbar]

Enemies rarely have procs anyway even in Conquest bar a few bosses, and dodgetanking is unreliable unless you're Hana, Kaden or Selkie

fixed

(not to say Ryoma can't dodgetank as well but I keep finding the claim that dodgetanking in Fates is unreliable to be a false one in my personal experiences in Birthright, as long as your not going up against Archers or similarly high skill units)

[Thor Odinson]

fixed

(not to say Ryoma can't dodgetank as well but I keep finding the claim that dodgetanking in Fates is unreliable to be a false one in my personal experiences in Birthright, as long as your not going up against Archers or similarly high skill units)

As far as the regression model goes apparently fates is 1RN below 50%, which does make the RNG itself innately less reliable for dodgetanking compared to GBA. What difficulty are you on?

Ryoma works differently than the dodgetanks you listed because he's 1-2 range with high power and vantage, which gives him considerably more survivability especially with the Astra dual guard mechanics. That's why he's a lot more reliable. He doesn't purely work off dodge.

[kantoorfarina]

fixed

(not to say Ryoma can't dodgetank as well but I keep finding the claim that dodgetanking in Fates is unreliable to be a false one in my personal experiences in Birthright, as long as your not going up against Archers or similarly high skill units)

I don't trust Hana to dodgetank considering that just one unlucky hit can end her and Fates's RNG can be unpredictable, even if the enemy has an extremely low chance of hitting you.

[Alastor15243]

fixed

(not to say Ryoma can't dodgetank as well but I keep finding the claim that dodgetanking in Fates is unreliable to be a false one in my personal experiences in Birthright, as long as your not going up against Archers or similarly high skill units)

Try playing an ironman run of Fates and tell me if you still have faith in dodgetanking. It sure as hell destroyed mine.

[Soapbar]

As far as the regression model goes apparently fates is 1RN below 50%, which does make the RNG itself innately less reliable for dodgetanking compared to GBA. What difficulty are you on?

Ryoma works differently than the dodgetanks you listed because he's 1-2 range with high power and vantage, which gives him considerably more survivability especially with the Astra dual guard mechanics. That's why he's a lot more reliable. He doesn't purely work off dodge.

Hard/Classic for the most part.

Hana also gets Vantage as well along with having similar or sometimes higher strength than Ryoma (even with Rajinto equipped admittedly only by like 1 or 2 points). Kaden has tons of HP and Res to go along with his high dodgeiness. Selkie is Kaden's kid and works mostly off the same principles. The only thing they lack compared to Ryoma is 2 range which can be a big problem for Hana but not so much for Kaden and Selkie. Basically the only problem for non-Ryoma dodge tanks are Archers and RNG being uncooperative at times, the latter of which can be worked around by HP Tonics or if absolutely necessary Seraph Robes.

Try playing an ironman run of Fates and tell me if you still have faith in dodgetanking. It sure as hell destroyed mine.

well obviously, on an Ironman run you wouldn't want to leave anything up to RNG. However my post was under the assumption of normal playthroughs with resets/casual mode.

[Thor Odinson]

Hard/Classic for the most part.

Hana also gets Vantage as well along with having similar or sometimes higher strength than Ryoma (even with Rajinto equipped admittedly only by like 1 or 2 points). Kaden has tons of HP and Res to go along with his high dodgeiness. Selkie is Kaden's kid and works mostly off the same principles. The only thing they lack compared to Ryoma is 2 range which can be a big problem for Hana but not so much for Kaden and Selkie. Basically the only problem for non-Ryoma dodge tanks are Archers and RNG being uncooperative at times, the latter of which can be worked around by HP Tonics or if absolutely necessary Seraph Robes.

well obviously, on an Ironman run you wouldn't want to leave anything up to RNG. However my post was under the assumption of normal playthroughs with resets/casual mode.

Never played hard, but it won't really fly on nogrind Lunatic. 1-2 is the key to Ryoma's reliability--he does get hit and Hana doesn't have enough speed/luck over him to not get hit ever. Vantage-astra-tanking doesn't really work well if you can't counter.

The whole reason Ryoma works is because he has a 1-2 range 11 mt weapon that doesn't have drawbacks like kodachi does and lets him proc Astra all the time. Vantage Astra Master Ninja Saizo would honestly be a better case for a tank.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Mackc2]

Odin was useless from the getgo so I dropped him. Xander is a bit of a letdown, he's good but not great. Benny just blocks off a point and nothing not even mages get past that point. Laslow actually makes a decent ninja. Mozu Sniper is my most reliable nuke, she has decent defence and hits everything for about 20 x2 on average which is better than basically anyone else.I think my niles was everything screwed because Nina had higher stats in everything (except resistance) five levels lower.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Conquest is literally filled with good units.

[Shadow Mir]

Enemies rarely have procs anyway even in Conquest bar a few bosses, and dodgetanking is unreliable unless you're Ryoma (Ryoma should probably not use Quixotic) or going against a specific weapon user with a breaker and WTA (Nina with a bow vs Ninjas, for example). Therefore, if you go in with the mindset of enemies always hit and is pleasantly surprised if they don't, Quixotic's hit on the enemy doesn't matter because you have already planned around the enemy to hit you.

I'm also quite fond of Berserker Rinkah with her spouse being a Chieftain pairup as a Zerktank that can reach Xander tiers of durability. Crits? Who cares, I have 41 defense things hardly scratch me

Gotta know how to stack the right stats, man

The way I see it, Quixotic is like Awakening Counter - it generally does almost no good for the player, but the enemy tends to get a lot of help from it.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Thor Odinson]

The way I see it, Quixotic is like Awakening Counter - it generally does almost no good for the player, but the enemy tends to get a lot of help from it.

It's really not. If you get used to playing with the dodging is unreliable bar specific units meant to dodge (in which specific dodgetank units would not be using Quixotic) mindset and plan for every single enemy hit to hit, then the increased hit means nothing because you already planned for it, and the +proc also means nothing because none of the enemies bar specific bosses actually have procs.

When you have played shit like New Mystery Lunatic, that mindset is already second nature.

You just have to make a good judgement call on who is likely a good Quix user. Someone like Xander who don't even try to dodge and rely on raw durability in which case you can probably stack it with Sol from Laslow (granted you'd have to marry Xander for this one)? Probably works fine. Someone like Ryoma? Not so much.

[Ownagepuffs]

Assuming every enemy will hit is one of those things that should go in the hall of FE great advice.

[Shadow Mir]

It's really not. If you get used to playing with the dodging is unreliable bar specific units meant to dodge (in which specific dodgetank units would not be using Quixotic) mindset and plan for every single enemy hit to hit, then the increased hit means nothing because you already planned for it, and the +proc also means nothing because none of the enemies bar specific bosses actually have procs.

When you have played shit like New Mystery Lunatic, that mindset is already second nature.

You just have to make a good judgement call on who is likely a good Quix user. Someone like Xander who don't even try to dodge and rely on raw durability in which case you can probably stack it with Sol from Laslow (granted you'd have to marry Xander for this one)? Probably works fine. Someone like Ryoma? Not so much.

As I see it, the +proc doesn't really mean much of anything for the player either because skills in general are innately unreliable - the fact that the enemy gets to benefit from Quixotic as well is an instant deal-breaker. And personally, I don't really think Sol is worth a reclass to get.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Ownagepuffs]

I used to think sol wasn't worth a reclass then I did it for +Str Ninja corn in my current run.

Where has this been all my life.

[Thor Odinson]

In addition to Ninjas, Sol can be worth it on Xander and Ryoma given that they have powerful 1-2's and putting Xander in Hero for say, chapter 19 to conveniently remove his beast weakness (if Camilla's using your only beastslayer, for example) because the whole reason Sol is nerfed is because 1-2 on most physical weapons is nerfed.

Even if you don't use it for +Proc, the hit increases and so what if the enemy benefits if you're already operating under the mentality that the enemy WILL hit anyway? When you operate with the assumption that any hit rate over 25% (as an example) is going to hit for your strats, and the only people getting sub-[dodge threshold] are people specifically built for dodging.

Every single move I make for all units aside from Ryoma, I assume they will hit. Quixotic's hit boost means nothing when I already rounded up every single hit rate from the enemy to 100% anyway and get pleasantly surprised when they don't hit.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Alastor15243]

As I see it, the +proc doesn't really mean much of anything for the player either because skills in general are innately unreliable - the fact that the enemy gets to benefit from Quixotic as well is an instant deal-breaker. And personally, I don't really think Sol is worth a reclass to get.

You can get three or even four good damage procs easily on the avatar by the time you can even get quixotic, making for a devastating and extremely stable damage output. You can use Nohrian Trust to borrow procs from bond units whenever you want. It's very easy to make a build that takes full advantage of Quixotic.

[Renall]

Route-Exclusive Unit Average Base Growths

Format is STAT: Birthright / Conquest.

• HP: 39.74% / 43.82%
• STR: 37.63% / 38.82%
• MAG: 17.89% / 17.06%
• SKL: 39.74% / 39.71%
• SPD: 39.21% / 40.59%
• LCK: 38.42% / 39.71%
• DEF: 32.89% / 34.41%
• RES: 25.26% / 30.29%

On average, Conquest units tend to be slightly better statistically overall. They are however much more specialized: The most imbalanced Birthright character is probably Subaki, and his stats are more balanced than comparable Conquest unit Charlotte (both share 5% base RES). 14 out of 19 Birthright characters have a base MAG growth >0%, while only 11 out of 17 Conquest characters do. Conquest units tend to be bulkier due to a combination of generally higher HP / DEF / RES growths and matching growths in more common classes.

If you were using Birthright's units in Conquest you'd notice their relative fragility more. Likewise if you were using Conquest units in Birthright you might not see that much difference in survivability. Underleveled BR units in Lunatic Revelation definitely have some issues with their durability in comparison to CQ units, but underleveled CQ units have a tendency to have SPD and SKL problems. The higher individual enemy stats in Lunatic RV call out the particular stat deficiencies of characters more.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Renall

[Shadow Mir]

WRT Beruka: I'm not really seeing the comparison to RD Haar - in part because RD Haar had a huge amount of HP.

You can get three or even four good damage procs easily on the avatar by the time you can even get quixotic, making for a devastating and extremely stable damage output. You can use Nohrian Trust to borrow procs from bond units whenever you want. It's very easy to make a build that takes full advantage of Quixotic.

I only really care for having 2 damage procs at most - having 3-4 is flashy, but it fails the practicality test in my book. Also, thanks for reminding me of another reason why I don't care about Quixotic.

I used to think sol wasn't worth a reclass then I did it for +Str Ninja corn in my current run.

Where has this been all my life.

As I see it, Sol doesn't really help much because I can't rely on it to save my bacon, unlike healers and healing items.

[Alastor15243]

I only really care for having 2 damage procs at most - having 3-4 is flashy, but it fails the practicality test in my book. Also, thanks for reminding me of another reason why I don't care about Quixotic.

Again though, the only benefit to not equipping Quixotic is that situations where you're relying on blind luck to get you out of a jam backfire less often. If you're in a mindset of assuming that everything that can hit will, which is sound advice, the penalties of quixotic basically don't exist except when talking about money spent on healing staves, and even then that money spent translates to extra experience too.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Assuming every enemy will hit is one of those things that should go in the hall of FE great advice.

It depends.

In the GBA games you can get displayed hit to be sub-20 by midgame at which point you can very much start to make assumptions that, say, you'll dodge at least 1 out of 3 hits. Getting hit down to 0 is even possible, at which point avoid is completely reliable of course. There are some lategame maps in FE6-8 HM which concrete tanking isn't practical but dodge-tanking very much is.

Fates doesn't really get to be like that ever that I've seen, though, and I definitely agree with this disclaimer for situations where your evade is moderate (say, no more than 70-80%).