Shipping Survey

[Res]

Though for Fire Emblem, I m curious for supports of how many people that like shipping actually do the same gender supports. Not necessarily for shipping purposes, but simply to see the character interactions like before. I know I actually enjoyed supports like Chrom and Gaius or Maribelle and Olivia.

I wonder if that's just a sign of the times that people put more emphasis on pairing up with characters, or people are just really that insistent on having more choices presented to them. I'll admit that one of the biggest reasons I like the shipping in Fates for instance is that expansion of tying reclass options to it. Especially combined with the logbook I can make for some interesting skillsets on subsequent playthroughs. Though, I do agree that I wish supports were back to being as strong as they were from earlier installments.

I do same-gender supports! I just love gaining more insight into the characters in general. I'd be happy with S-supports being removed so long as other supports remained in place.

When I first played the games, I actually cared more about pairings than I do now. I used to have an OTP; now, I have none. My favourite characters I actually like to pair with any one of several candidates. The only time I feel strongly about a pairing is if I have negative feelings on it (for example, I find Camilla/Takumi genuinely distressing to read).

I'd be fine with limited options. I actually really like when options are limited and you get a sense of who the writers did/didn't prefer. For example, I love that the writers decided that Cordelia's love should remain unrequited and that you can't pair her with Chrom.

[Anacybele]

The point is, regardless of canonical information on pairings, such as your example where you don't care about Marth and Caeda and won't contest it... you will contest it if it's something you care about. So your point being "it would be better for shippers in general" for them to have canon pairing or nonpairings... would be moot.

The evidence is you.

If you start shipping it, you're not going to back down. Even if it gets shot down at the end of a game.

Limiting the devs, telling them to treat all pairings equally is detrimental to the writing process if they fear offending anyone at all. Likewise, your example of them making canon pairings does not help the fanbase. It improves the writing, but how far are you willing to step on everyone's toes? When you say those things, you must look at the worst case. Meaning think about something you care about and step all over it.

If they made Elincia and Geoffrey canon, would you be able to take that? If Chrom x Village girl was canon, would fangirls be able to take that? If Robin was canonically single, would they be able to take that? If Ryouma was actually a blood sibling, would people be able to take that? If Lyn x Rath is canon, would people be able to take that? What if Ike was into Catgirls like Lethe? Or Catboys like Lay/Ranulf?

Criticizing the preferential treatment of pairings isn't akin to a middle finger. It is arguable that you would react worse if they took the extreme and fixed many pairs.

These aren't personal attacks, Ana. It is a fact that you resist it. All I did was reference it to make a point. You were being referenced to make a point that is factual. You made yourself relevant earlier. You are not being shoehorned in. You should stop taking them as attacks.

I'm fine with fixed pairs as a concept. You don't see me complaining about Marth and Caeda or Pent and Louise or Bartre and Karla, do you? It's when IS goes and pulls something like Largo and Callil that I have a problem with. They established Callil as a single woman who doesn't have much luck with men, especially in her support with Geoffrey (she even says herself that she has poor luck with men), and all of a sudden she and Largo are married later? Largo isn't even relevant in PoR at all and you don't even need to see him. For some players, he virtually came out of nowhere when they played RD. I was one of those players, in fact. I never knew Largo existed until my first run of the game. The reason was that I didn't bother with Callil in my early PoR runs and thus didn't bother getting Largo either.

What I'm saying is that a pairing can be fixed as long as it has well-handled story stuff to back it up. Marth and Caeda are obvious by now. Pent and Louise were already married and Louise is even preggers. Bartre and Karla already had a relationship going from what I know. There's no mention of Largo and Callil having had a relationship or Callil having a relationship with any man and she's able to support at least one other single guy (Geoffrey). This kind of leaves her more open than the other characters I mentioned. And then she's all of a sudden married to Largo.

I mean, I don't hate Largo and Callil THAT much, they're honestly okay to me, but I do think their marriage was handled poorly.

And yes, I made myself relevant EARLIER, but then I was trying to STOP being relevant. You just kept bringing me up.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

Edit: I'd didn't realize my phone posted on the other tab. Apologies for the double post.

Edited December 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[shadowofchaos]

I don't think of female Robin as being bitchy, I just kinda see her as being a little more neurotic is all. But from what I've seen I think female Morgan is kinda bitchy, she just seems really mean to everyone and not even in a fun neurotic way, more like, she aware that she's being mean to other people and she's happy about that. Granted I haven't read her supports in a long long time, but that's what I remember.

Plus, I feel like female characters can get away with being a little bit meaner and cockier. Both Kris's practically have the same dialogue but male Kris came across as douchey and arrogant, while I have little to no problem with female Kris. Weird right?

The female characters in general in the English version are more... forward.

And yes, I made myself relevant EARLIER, but then I was trying to STOP being relevant. You just kept bringing me up.

Your view was relevant to the current discussion with Augestein. So if you wish to stop being relevant, stop bringing it up the subject of you not being relevant.

We stopped talking about you two posts ago.

I'm fine with fixed pairs as a concept. You don't see me complaining about Marth and Caeda or Pent and Louise or Bartre and Karla, do you? It's when IS goes and pulls something like Largo and Callil that I have a problem with. They established Callil as a single woman who doesn't have much luck with men, especially in her support with Geoffrey (she even says herself that she has poor luck with men), and all of a sudden she and Largo are married later? Largo isn't even relevant in PoR at all and you don't even need to see him. For some players, he virtually came out of nowhere when they played RD. I was one of those players, in fact. I never knew Largo existed until my first run of the game. The reason was that I didn't bother with Callil in my early PoR runs and thus didn't bother getting Largo either.

What I'm saying is that a pairing can be fixed as long as it has well-handled story stuff to back it up. Marth and Caeda are obvious by now. Pent and Louise were already married and Louise is even preggers. Bartre and Karla already had a relationship going from what I know. There's no mention of Largo and Callil having had a relationship or Callil having a relationship with any man and she's able to support at least one other single guy (Geoffrey). This kind of leaves her more open than the other characters I mentioned. And then she's all of a sudden married to Largo.

I mean, I don't hate Largo and Callil THAT much, they're honestly okay to me, but I do think their marriage was handled poorly.

Agreed on Largo and Callil being handled poorly. But you still haven't addressed your point about the devs faults.

Now, how does fixed pairs benefit the fanbase? Your earlier point is that non-fixed pairs gave other people room to cause arguements.

I have established just from your post that people will bring up grievances about pairings regardless of they are fixed or not. Same with ones that are fixed NOT to be pairings.

Are you still of the opinion that the devs having preferences in their games is still a "middle finger" to your preferences and cause grievances?

Edited December 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

Your view was relevant to the current discussion with Augestein. So if you wish to stop being relevant, stop bringing it up the subject of you not being relevant.

This actually made me chuckle, lol. But you're right, honestly.

Agreed on Largo and Callil being handled poorly. But you still haven't addressed your point about the devs faults.

Now, how does fixed pairs benefit the fanbase? Your earlier point is that non-fixed pairs gave other people room to cause arguements.

I have established just from your post that people will bring up grievances about pairings regardless of they are fixed or not. Same with ones that are fixed NOT to be pairings.

Are you still of the opinion that the devs having preferences in their games is still a "middle finger" to your preferences and cause grievances?

Then I'm not sure what to say anymore here other than I think IS should either go with multiple options with none of them being more pushed than the others or completely fixed pairings with well-written establishment, that's all.

[shadowofchaos]

And that's where we were in the discussion. Two pages ago when you took my criticism as a personal attack.

Thank you.

Now the part where multiple options having no push:

It is detrimental to the writing aspect of game development.

I think that expecting games with multiple paired endings to not be biased towards certain pairings is a bit ridiculous. These writers are human too, so they are going to show their preferences when writing the game. Even if they try to not do so, I feel it's something inevitable.

Jave puts it better than I can.

What I said earlier was that expecting this is unfair.

You are a fan fiction writer.

Imagine you had to write something that required you to literally check and make sure all the character interactions had no implications whatsoever.

Now take that to game development.

It's an impossible task.

That's what Boron and I were saying. It's a design complaint that you cannot provide a solution to.

[Acacia Sgt]

Regarding Callil and Largo, it's true nothing much is outright stated, but there are various hints you can't say the game didn't told you anything at all.

Largo's recruitment dialogue shows they both already know each other. They also have an in-built support bonus (like the one between Ike and Mist, the three brothers, Tormod and Muarim, etc), indicating they're already close to each other. The ending has them declaring they'll open an inn together. Etc.

And considering the three year time skip between game (plus whatever time that happened before PoR), it's not unreasonable to think their relationship was just one that happened offscreen.

---

Anyway, to be on-topic, I can't really say I have much of a preference when it comes to pairings. Although whenever I do pair people it's usually with something in mind. Like say, once doing Stahl and Sully due to being the Red&Green Cavalier archetype. Or Chrom and Sumia another time due to finding it amusing considering Marth and Caeda and the fact that the First Exalt was also close to a Pegasus Knight (what, Anri's bloodline has a thing for them? lol). Or Robin and Sumia in another playthrough since their supports are of them bonding over books and reading (actually, this is one of my most favorite supports that even if I don't pair them in a playthrough, I still have them reach A rank). And stuff like that.

So yeah...

[shadowofchaos]

Regarding Callil and Largo, it's true nothing much is outright stated, but there are various hints you can't say the game didn't told you anything at all.

Largo's recruitment dialogue shows they both already know each other. They also have an in-built support bonus (like the one between Ike and Mist, the three brothers, Tormod and Muarim, etc), indicating they're already close to each other. The ending has them declaring they'll open an inn together. Etc.

I guess Fire Emblem in general has pairs interact so little because of the death mechanic that a pair that doesn't have as much exposure as the others will test the player's ability to believe what is given to them by the narrative that happened outside of the narrative.

On topic: Awakening's approach nerfed that even more. Any connections between couples are strictly in the players' head... considering all the anime tropes that prevailed in supports. Especially since Future of Despair DLC with the children.

You imagine what those kids' relationships were with their parents.

All the while the game has the oversight of the children conversations with male MU say they saw MU die before their eyes... when you know... they're Gimle/Grima.

Because of the lack of direction and them not wanting to make anything that would step on people's toes... they shoot themselves in the foot multiple times in different places.

Edited December 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[saisymbolic]

Of my choices, Sumia x Stahl is the only notable pairing. I believe Stahl's laid back, easy going personality would have worked well in grounding both Sumia and Cynthia's clumsy, ditzy tendencies.

Too bad no one in the writing department thought about it.

Edited December 2, 2016 by saisymbolic

[Anacybele]

Jave puts it better than I can.

What I said earlier was that expecting this is unfair.

You are a fan fiction writer.

Imagine you had to write something that required you to literally check and make sure all the character interactions had no implications whatsoever.

Now take that to game development.

It's an impossible task.

That's what Boron and I were saying. It's a design complaint that you cannot provide a solution to.

You still haven't told me why or how this is an impossible task. Yes, with my current long FE fic as it is, it'd be impossible, but I'd be fine with altering or omitting some of the writing if I wanted to add multiple pairing options in a game version of it. But it'd honestly be easier to just use the fixed pairings I already have and go the fixed pairings route. I've gotten so used to writing them that at this point it'd be awkward not to.

[shadowofchaos]

If you have any knowledge of software development, especially games, writing takes a back seat and already have a time crunch.

Pairings even less.

That's why.

As for the fixed pairings route... as I've said it does wonders for writing, but changes nothing for the fanbase.

Literally what I've been saying for 8 posts.

And now we can drop this as we finally established that the devs are in fact, neither slapping you in the face nor putting up a middle finger for putting preferred pairings in their games.

Edited December 2, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Augestein]

I do same-gender supports! I just love gaining more insight into the characters in general. I'd be happy with S-supports being removed so long as other supports remained in place.

When I first played the games, I actually cared more about pairings than I do now. I used to have an OTP; now, I have none. My favourite characters I actually like to pair with any one of several candidates. The only time I feel strongly about a pairing is if I have negative feelings on it (for example, I find Camilla/Takumi genuinely distressing to read).

I'd be fine with limited options. I actually really like when options are limited and you get a sense of who the writers did/didn't prefer. For example, I love that the writers decided that Cordelia's love should remain unrequited and that you can't pair her with Chrom.

This is actually nice to hear, and kinda crazy that someone has like... The same opinion that I do on things. Like even the Camilla/Takumi part. Haha.

You still haven't told me why or how this is an impossible task. Yes, with my current long FE fic as it is, it'd be impossible, but I'd be fine with altering or omitting some of the writing if I wanted to add multiple pairing options in a game version of it. But it'd honestly be easier to just use the fixed pairings I already have and go the fixed pairings route. I've gotten so used to writing them that at this point it'd be awkward not to.

I'll explain it in layman's. Essentially what happens is this, during a software dev cycle, each group is expected to make certain gains in certain aspects over x amount of hours. Times are allotted to certain aspects based on the importance of the task being accomplished such as things like model cycles calling proper animation frames and moving correctly, optimization of textures loading into the game, engine physics tweaks, AI functioning properly, you name it, it's probably a task that needs to be accomplished. Within that time frame as well, each task needs to be properly tested to ensure that it's actually functioning properly. And THEN after all of that, these systems all need to function together with no hiccups, as bad calls or misused parameters and classes can cause things like Final Fantasy VI's infamous "Evade Bug" where someone goofed and calls magic evasion for both physical and magical evade. After all these things are fixed, then the game can be expanded upon. As you can see, in the following aspects that I mentioned, all of these things are absolutely necessary to work to ensure that the game can be sold with a reasonable level of quality, and not once was story even mentioned; fixing the story doesn't actually cause you to have a game. Unless your game IS the story, like say Higuarshi, a visual novel, the game is without a doubt, one of the last aspects crafted. And instead, a story is crafted around an initial concept of a game.

[eclipse]

Swearing in general isn't really okay on this forum because there are kids here. I think.

Don't overdo the swearing. I don't ding people for swearing here and there. If you check my posts, you'll see me swear as well.

I can't say I'm terribly invested in any of the pairings in FE in general. Since Awakening's so free in who can bang, I find it difficult to get too attached to any in particular since none of them really matter in terms of the story or general plot. I'd rather play a game for the gameplay than shipping!

Pair Chrom and Maribelle, and watch the movie after Chapter 12

But MaidenxChrom is also absolutely hilarious to me so...

But anyway, I think part of the of fun the of Awakening is playing matchmaker. It's fun to look at all the characters and try to find what you consider the best possible coupling. It's why I consider Awakening's pairings and children features different from Genealogy's, even though I actually haven't played that game yet, but the way I'm seeing it and it's coming across is that Awakening is more like, "oh look at these cute couples that I'm putting together! Oh and now look! They have a kid with their father's hair!" And Genealogy is more like, "..." actually I don't even have a made up quote example for that. Genealogy just seems more serious and intense. What I guess I'm saying is that Awakening seems to be coming across as a little more shallow in it's marriage options, but I kinda like that.

Honestly, Genealogy is like this big scary mountain that I haven't tackled yet....

Maiden and Chrom is the only way to pair every single first-gen non-Robinsexual unit.

FE4 is a completely different beast when compared to Awakening. Inheritance can really mess with growth rates, and inventory management is insane. I have lots of issues with FE4, but the marriage system isn't one of them. If FE4 had Awakening's more fleshed-out supports, I think it would be a lot more amusing. . .or maybe not, because I can't stand Sylvia as a character. Or maybe those supports will make her more tolerable in my eyes. Who knows?

I actually cared about the characters in FE7, and have a couple of crack ships I support!

EDIT: Right, PMs. Feel free to add me to them, if you think it'll keep things more civil. You can add four or five people to a PM! Memory's a bit rusty, sorry~!

Edited December 2, 2016 by eggclipse

[twistedxgrace]

Of my choices, Sumia x Stahl is the only notable pairing. I believe Stahl's laid back, easy going personality would have worked well in grounding both Sumia and Cynthia's clumsy, ditzy tendencies.

Too bad no one in the writing department thought about it.

I know right! I don't even like Sumia's supports with Gaius, so to think he was chosen over someone like Stahl...

As much as I believe the support quality overall would improve if IntSys went back to giving characters less support options (the character gimmicks get so repetitive), it also concerns me which combinations the writers would choose and what the players would agree with. Even Fates fans have been writing a plethora of support combinations impossible in the game that has the most.

[TheSilentChloey]

Don't overdo the swearing. I don't ding people for swearing here and there. If you check my posts, you'll see me swear as well.

Pair Chrom and Maribelle, and watch the movie after Chapter 12

Maiden and Chrom is the only way to pair every single first-gen non-Robinsexual unit.

FE4 is a completely different beast when compared to Awakening. Inheritance can really mess with growth rates, and inventory management is insane. I have lots of issues with FE4, but the marriage system isn't one of them. If FE4 had Awakening's more fleshed-out supports, I think it would be a lot more amusing. . .or maybe not, because I can't stand Sylvia as a character. Or maybe those supports will make her more tolerable in my eyes. Who knows?

I actually cared about the characters in FE7, and have a couple of crack ships I support!

EDIT: Right, PMs. Feel free to add me to them, if you think it'll keep things more civil. You can add four or five people to a PM! Memory's a bit rusty, sorry~!

Thanks eggclipse .

Personally one of the most crack ships I have ever supported is Lissa x Ricken or Lissa x Lon'qu in Awakening (the latter more so than the former I think) and that is because of the ending more so than anything else. Lissa and Ricken's supports were somewhat cute and I do kind of like a ginger Owain. That said I also like Lon'qu's supports with Lissa because he manages to forgive himself for what happened in his past so that is a very close second (and Lon'qu!Oawin is kinda cute with the dark hair).

One of the 'best' gliches would have to be chapter 13 of Awakening when Chrom marries Maribelle...I think we dubbed it the Sumia glich? (Did we I don't remember...) At any rate it can be used for story telling purposes and can make for a good laugh too. Although some glitches are not so much fun. I think Pokemon had the missingno glitch and it ruins an entire save file. So at least that doesn't happen in Awakening thankfully.

[Magical Glace]

One of the 'best' gliches would have to be chapter 13 of Awakening when Chrom marries Maribelle...I think we dubbed it the Sumia glich? (Did we I don't remember... ) At any rate it can be used for story telling purposes and can make for a good laugh too. Although some glitches are not so much fun. I think Pokemon had the missingno glitch and it ruins an entire save file. So at least that doesn't happen in Awakening thankfully.

...MissingNo. is almost completely benign, the most adverse thing it does is corrupt relatively unimportant Hall of Fame data. There are dangerous glitchmon in Gen I, Missingno. is not one. Edited December 3, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[saisymbolic]

I know right! I don't even like Sumia's supports with Gaius, so to think he was chosen over someone like Stahl...

As much as I believe the support quality overall would improve if IntSys went back to giving characters less support options (the character gimmicks get so repetitive), it also concerns me which combinations the writers would choose and what the players would agree with. Even Fates fans have been writing a plethora of support combinations impossible in the game that has the most.

Seriously. I personally would have swapped Gaius and Henry for Stahl and . . . someone else. Someone that could further help her with her self-esteem. Not Henry, though.

These are my exact sentiments. As much as I prefer a support system with each character having a limited number of conversations, that still does not dictate the quality of the supports themselves. I feel like whoever writes these characters does not have a proper grasp on creating character arcs and personalities. They create a character centered around a certain element, unable to realize that, once that gimmick is taken away from the equation, the character themselves completely falls a part with no other substance to them.

I want to stay optimistic, but things like that worries me as well.

[Magical Glace]

Tbh Henry's probably an option so you get a last chance shot at Cynthia. If everyone else in her pool is paired and Chrom accidentally marries someone else, you wouldn't be able to get her paired without Henry as an option.

[Shadow Mir]

Tbh Henry's probably an option so you get a last chance shot at Cynthia. If everyone else in her pool is paired and Chrom accidentally marries someone else, you wouldn't be able to get her paired without Henry as an option.

True enough, I suppose.

Also, on the subject of limiting support pools, IMHO, I still don't think that'd help improve the quality of the supports themselves.

[twistedxgrace]

Tbh Henry's probably an option so you get a last chance shot at Cynthia. If everyone else in her pool is paired and Chrom accidentally marries someone else, you wouldn't be able to get her paired without Henry as an option.

Just like Olivia's a last resort for Chrom if you don't want him marrying the Maiden.

[Radiant head]

i can see the appeal of lon'qu x olivia, but their support being mostly about their mutual boss makes it kind of eh.

[PersonWithTime]

Maiden and Chrom is the only way to pair every single first-gen non-Robinsexual unit.

FE4 is a completely different beast when compared to Awakening. Inheritance can really mess with growth rates, and inventory management is insane. I have lots of issues with FE4, but the marriage system isn't one of them. If FE4 had Awakening's more fleshed-out supports, I think it would be a lot more amusing. . .or maybe not, because I can't stand Sylvia as a character. Or maybe those supports will make her more tolerable in my eyes. Who knows?

Oh really? I actually had no idea about that one. But you know, I'm also cool with Vaike being forever alone so...

Yeah... before I start FE4 I'm probably going to start a new topic about how the hell I should play that game... With time, I will tackle Genealogy, and sink my teeth in Jugdral, before waiting an undetermined amount of years for a good Thracia translation. Ah, to be a Fire Emblem fan, with all the amazing fan translations out at the moment it's a good time to be one.

Tbh Henry's probably an option so you get a last chance shot at Cynthia. If everyone else in her pool is paired and Chrom accidentally marries someone else, you wouldn't be able to get her paired without Henry as an option.

Legit, Henry was the last option for Sumia in my cousin's save file, so I told her to marry them to get Cynthia but she just could NOT see them together and just didn't even get Cynthia. Poor Cynthia. I think she would have looked okay-ish with white hair. I love white hair. I'm just jealous of Micaiah, but that's my own issues.

[Shadow Mir]

Yeah... before I start FE4 I'm probably going to start a new topic about how the hell I should play that game... With time, I will tackle Genealogy, and sink my teeth in Jugdral, before waiting an undetermined amount of years for a good Thracia translation. Ah, to be a Fire Emblem fan, with all the amazing fan translations out at the moment it's a good time to be one.

I'll say this much about FE4 - If you don't have a tolerance for big, and I mean REALLY BIG maps, you're not going to like it. They're one of my grievances about the game; there are others, but I don't want to drag this off topic so I won't say.

Anyway, wrt Henry and Sumia, I suppose Cynthia can pull off white hair.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Thane]

Also, on the subject of limiting support pools, IMHO, I still don't think that'd help improve the quality of the supports themselves.

It's no guarantee, but I'm fairly sure it improves the chances of the supports being better. If nothing else, the writers wouldn't have to make rank C to A generic and open-ended before dropping the confession bomb immediately afterwards.

[Augestein]

It's no guarantee, but I'm fairly sure it improves the chances of the supports being better. If nothing else, the writers wouldn't have to make rank C to A generic and open-ended before dropping the confession bomb immediately afterwards.

I honestly think it would, I definitely agree with you there. Take a look at the same sex supports in Awakening and Fates. The quality of them tends to be much better than the male x female ones because the characters that talk in those actually have a reason to approach one another. Fates is especially bad because there are several C supports that essentially boil down to this:

Guy A: Hey B! How are you?

B: I'm doing pretty great! How are you?

Guy A: Can't complain! Hey, I've been meaning to ask you about that one story.

B: Oh you mean that one story? Yeah, I'd love to explain that to you, but not right now. Maybe next support.

Guy A: Okay! I'll hold you to it!

With some many of those generic formats for C rank supports, I'm inclined to believe that they didn't have enough conversations for even C-A for some characters but had to do it on the account of the mechanics for marriage.